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7:06 PM
@VeeeneX Speed is not the characteristic of a language.
 
@TemplateRex I've yet to meet a compiler I couldn't beat (usually pretty easily too).
 
@Loopunroller look at my last answers - mostly 0. Admittedly, there's also an accept that I don't think I fully deserve :)
 
@JerryCoffin consistently, for overall program performance?
 
@TemplateRex TIL this is actually a thing: amazon.com/b?node=8037720011
 
@TemplateRex Yes. Obviously I don't mess with writing assembly language for everything all the time, but when it's worth the effort, I've always beaten any compiler I tried to. Of course, it is a fair amount of extra effort though, so it's not justified very often.
 
7:11 PM
@JerryCoffin ok, std::sort of a std::vector, where would you start?
@Code-Apprentice oh yes!
 
@TemplateRex start from the beginning
 
@TemplateRex Not there, at least as a rule.
 
And if you can't beat the compiler, it's fair to look at the compiler output to understand why it's beating you. Learn from it, and go on from there.
 
@Mysticial I've occasionally looked at assembly output to rewrite C++ code, but never to directly insert assembly code
 
@JerryCoffin Though my compiler beats me easily in the correctness department in the face of complexity, and the speed of maintenance.
 
7:14 PM
although the __builtin_xxx family from gcc/clang are pretty nice wrappers to access fast instructions for bit-twiddling etc.
 
@Jefffrey In the beginning, there was Light.
 
no fuck him
 
@Code-Apprentice in the beginning, there were Maxwell's Equations
 
he hasn't come back yet
 
@Jefffrey ??
 
7:15 PM
Back in my undergrad days, I did most of my learning by reading compiler output. It wasn't until grad school did I finally "catch up".
 
@TemplateRex There are no endings nor beginnings to the turning of the Wheel. But this was a beginning.
 
@sehe Lightness
 
Yeah yeah
 
@VeeeneX While it's true that you can't assign a speed to Python (or any other language) the simple fact is that it would be exceptionally difficult to compile Python to run as fast as most C or C++ compilers normally produce. C and C++ use static typing, which means almost all type checking is done at compile time. Python uses dynamic typing, which means most type checking is done at run time. Type-checking consumes roughly 0 run-time in most C and C++ programs.
 
ugh
i have 4 connection points on every cable
that means 20 potential failure points
 
7:17 PM
Everything that can be checked at compile time should be checked at compile time
 
how am I supposed to debug that :/
 
Even ranges
 
@Jefffrey can I check wires at compile time
 
Not sure, ask an engineer
Ok, so Int[0:23] is clearly not closed wrt +
 
@sehe Absolutely no argument from me on that. The assembly language version will usually be obsolete a lot sooner too.
 
7:19 PM
@JerryCoffin assembly is like soldering your lights directly into the ceiling
 
I have it
 
you can if you are a squatter, but regular folks just use sockets
 
You make it so Int[0:23], when it overflows, it starts back at 0; when it underflows it goes back to 23-
So it wraps around
Problem solved
 
@Jefffrey I'm just very surprised that there has been so much outrage against him and it seems to have polarized fully over a few days. I for one regret that he has left.
I also feel quite uncomfortable with the fact that some have suggested I wanted this. I do not.
 
I have
 
7:20 PM
@TemplateRex Seems like a strange simile to me, but I've probably used stranger at times.
 
But I'm tired of talking about this tbh
 
I never solder lightbulbs to concrete. Not even LED :)
 
@JerryCoffin before weed was legal to grow in CO, I suppose? ;-)
 
@Jefffrey I'm not sure what this means
@Jefffrey But I second that :)
 
You had the motive, the means and you clearly don't have an alibi.
 
7:21 PM
wtf :|
 
In fact the transcript doesn't look good for you
 
So, I'm guilty because people think politics are the thing.
 
@Jefffrey just stfu with all the vile, no one is interested in it
 
@Jefffrey I guess it depends on who reads them. Now, think about that
@TemplateRex Funny. I think that was blatant irony, no?
 
@TemplateRex I suppose. I left CO shortly after pot was legalized there though, so I'm a bit uncertain about its effects on the state as a whole (I've been in California since March).
 
7:23 PM
@sehe I for one am rather bored with all that petty nonsense, no irony
perhaps things were said, egos bruised and all that, but come on, it's not kindergarten, anyone is welcome here
@JerryCoffin in the Netherlands, a judge this week acquitted some folks who had been growing weed on their attack
they used regular electricity (instead of tapping it from a main line or their neighbors) and paid regular income tax over the proceeds
 
@TemplateRex "their attack"? "attack" doesn't make sense to me in this context.
 
why? why people still compile code on Windows against the non-wide char charset (MBCS)
 
> Java: strong type checking
is that true?
 
@Abyx I certainly do quite a bit of the time, especially in programs for myself that I don't care about localizing, internationalizing, etc.
 
I thought part of the Java hatred was caused by non-strong type checking and null bullshits
 
7:33 PM
@JerryCoffin attic
 
@Jefffrey "strong type-checking" is basically meaningless. Java certainly has static type checking, but whether it's strong or weak...well no real measurement for that.
 
@Jefffrey Terrible marketing statement from people who consider failing int a = 3.5; as "strong type checking"
 
@JerryCoffin it's not just about l10n or i14n. MBCS strings just can't have characters from different charsets
 
@TemplateRex Oh, okay--thanks. I probably should have been able to figure that out, but for some reason my brain wasn't working.
 
@JerryCoffin I don't even for that, the ANSI apis are horrid
 
7:34 PM
@milleniumbug Hey, it's my uni professor you're talking about
 
@JerryCoffin the spelling part of my brain was not functioning
 
@Jefffrey I don't care
 
after 8 and 1 glass of wine and all that
 
so if a file path has e.g. both Cyrillic and Chinese letters - you're screwed
 
@JerryCoffin Well, if Java really has a null which can be assigned to any type, then no "strong" type checking really exists
 
7:35 PM
Terribleness is terrible.
 
bool sheet.
Haskell has the exact same system.
 
@TemplateRex You at least have an excuse. I just ate lunch, so I should be awake and aware.
 
@sehe and I'm not even taking sides in any of all this, my comment at Jefffrey was just meant to let things be for a while, cuz why bring it all up again?
 
everything is just thrown apart the moment when all the constraints and guarantees types give you are nullified by null
@Puppy Except no.
 
@JerryCoffin wine at lunch is not bad either, but probably not the weather for it now
 
7:36 PM
@TemplateRex Not the weather, and (currently) not the boss for it either.
 
the only thing you can't attack about haskell is the type system
 
there's nothing different about null being a valid Object and String and HashMap, and 0 being a valid Int and Int64 or whatever they are.
it's exactly the same principle.
 
honestly MS needs to deprecate the ANSI apis fully so they can introduce UTF-8
 
or Nothing being a valid Maybe T for any T.
 
Maybe is exactly the same as std::optional
it conveys a purpose: a nullable object
 
7:37 PM
I can see a spelling difference :)
 
I never said anything different- and the exact same argument would indeed apply to std::optional or any other variant of it.
 
dat pun
 
lol
@Puppy yes
 
variant<optional, Maybe, std::vielleicht>
 
But null in Java AFAIK makes every Object nullable
and you can't take that back
 
7:39 PM
I'm not saying that it doesn't have implications, even important ones.
what I am saying is that it doesn't make the type system weaker.
 
then wtf are you saying
 
@Mgetz they can deprecate nothing. it's like with C++ - you cannot drop legacy code
 
@Puppy it depends
 
there's nothing implicit about all reference types in Java being nullable.
 
@sehe hm? did I offend you now or sth? (none intended)
 
7:39 PM
on what you mean by weaker
 
it's an explicit fact of the system.
 
@Jefffrey Oh, but many people do attack it (indirectly) on a regular basis--for example, many who advocate dynamic typing consider all static type checking pointless. Of course, those people are clueless, but they certainly still exist.
 
@Abyx by deprecate I mean stop supporting via the CRT
 
@Mgetz huh? it's not CRT, it's WinAPI
 
crut.
 
7:40 PM
@Abyx if the CRT assumes UTF-8 then you can have a set of apis that end with a U8 that are UTF-8 capable
 
if the CRT assumes UTF-8 they'd break so much code nobody would buy the product.
 
a type's main purpose it to convey the idea that a particular object can have only those values that are part of that type
 
@Puppy I'd assume they would do it like they did the XP CRT
 
the null value is a part of all types in the Java type system.
 
you can still use the ANSI one if you want, but the default is UTF-8
 
7:42 PM
when you say that every type can have those values or a value that means that there's no value, then you lose part of the safety
as opposed to only have those values to worry about
 
@Jefffrey There are widely varying opinions on the main purpose of a type. Some define it in terms of the values permitted for that type. Others primarily in terms of the operations and their effects. Seems to me like you need both to achieve much.
 
because in reality a type T can have all the values of type T but also a value that is not of type T (but pedantically is)
 
FTR
 
@JerryCoffin agreed
 
I am no fan of nulls or nullability.
and I hate that null object anti-pattern.
however
in Java it seems like the realistic fact is that if you can't accept nulls, you just unconditionally perform operations on the object.
 
7:45 PM
java specifies it, so it's strong in the way it is specified
I get it
 
it's true that the error could be caught earlier, maybe
 
@Puppy I don't get this part
 
@Jefffrey Well, effectively, this part of the type system is simply deferred until runtime.
which is shit, but a different problem to being weak, IYAM.
 
wait
types are checked at runtime?
 
well, effectively.
 
7:47 PM
what do you mean "effectively"?
 
well, think of it this way.
 
@Jefffrey He seems to be looking at it in terms of null having essentially dynamic type, so it can be converted/assigned to anything else. You can only check for that condition at run time.
 
imagine that there's a NullType that derives from every type in Java, and implements every method with throw new NullPointerException().
 
user1804599
"Every type can X" is horrible no matter what.
 
then name the only Singleton instace of it as null.
 
7:48 PM
@JerryCoffin I see
 
so you're effectively checking for x isa NullType at runtime.
which, I'm absolutely agreeing, is shit.
 
Ok got it
right
 
watching Chandler on CppCon now, is there a flat_list container in Boost somewhere that builds the std::list interface on top of std::vector?
 
you can't do such a thing.
iterator invalidation guarantees would own you.
 
@TemplateRex Why would you even do that?
 
7:50 PM
@Puppy forget about those, just same interface, perhaps slightly different complexity/invalidation, jsut way better cache properties
 
generally speaking, flat or small versions of a particular container can't fulfill the generic interface because they can't fulfill the invalidation guarantees.
 
like boost::flat_set also does change complexityh on certain member functions wrt std::set
 
@TemplateRex There's definitely a flat_set, but I've never heard of flat_list.
 
holy fuck.
IT DERIVES FROM THE VECTOR AND ALSO THE VECTOR DERIVES FROM IT.
problemo solvo.
 
@JerryCoffin ya, but Chandler suggests using flat_list on top of vector, "pays off in the end'
@Puppy ok, so it gives up those guarantees, but adds contiguity
 
7:52 PM
@TemplateRex (Trust me, I'm not. I was trying to get things to normalize a little; There's no need to call each other names. This includes kicking people after they left, and you telling people to "just stfu", if I'm honest.)
@TemplateRex No :) I just chose to be busy otherwise, mainly.
 
@sehe you are right, sorry @Jefffrey for calling out at that. I was just annoyed you see seemingly baiting sehe
 
@TemplateRex Well, if he means taking code written to use std::list, and adapting it to use a vector as the underlying container is generally a win, then I'd tend to agree. Reminds me--I meant to bring in my head phones so I could watch more CppCon videos today, but I forgot them.
 
@TemplateRex wat
no problemo
 
:D
 
@JerryCoffin Chandler is chubby but quite entertaining
 
7:55 PM
chubby chandelier
 
@TemplateRex would ask you wtf you are talking about considered baiting?
 
...
 
user1804599
Chandler is cute and uses Vim and Z shell. <3
 
i don't get what i would bait sehe into doing what
 
@sehe Which reminds me of the fact that nearly every woman I've met named Crystal was on the heavy side...
 
7:56 PM
You've meth Crystal?
 
@Jefffrey your reference to what the transcript implies for sehe. I'm not further engaging you along this line of questioning btw
 
what's the new allocator minimal interface?
I forget.
 
Why do people see adversaries everywhere
 
@sehe Sorry, but no. Pretty sure that's still illegal, even in Colorado.
 
@Puppy just write allocate / deallocate. done
(well, with constructor)
 
7:57 PM
hmm
 
but no more construct/destroy or any of the value_type verbosity
 
@TemplateRex This seems to make so much sense... there must be a trap :)
 
wat
 
@sehe don't think so, std::allocator_traits<MyAlloc> will fill in everything you didn't define yourself in MyAllocator
 
Nothing in C++ makes so much sense
 

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