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8:00 PM
@sehe Just in extra couple of decades (or so) thinking about the real essence of what was needed. Oh, and perhaps also giving up the crap left over from dealing with MS-DOS memory models.
 
@TemplateRex the fact that I think that he purposely pushed LRiO out of here?
 
#include <stdlib.h> // size_t, malloc, free
#include <new> // bad_alloc, bad_array_new_length
template <class T> struct Mallocator {
typedef T value_type;
Mallocator() noexcept { } // default ctor not required
template <class U> Mallocator(const Mallocator<U>&) noexcept { }
template <class U> bool operator==(
const Mallocator<U>&) const noexcept { return true; }
template <class U> bool operator!=(
const Mallocator<U>&) const noexcept { return false; }
T * allocate(const size_t n) const;
void deallocate(T * const p, size_t) const noexcept;
 
you don't like that I think or say that?
 
@Jefffrey You do o.O :(
 
8:01 PM
or you don't like that I repeated it when he was here
 
@Jefffrey FWIW you may think what you want, but it really surprises me.
And that's good. I learn every day
 
@sehe so small trap: op== and op!= also required, but with recent proposals they might be defaulted in C++17
 
See! I called it :^
 
hmm
 
@sehe in your defence I'm not sure if you are doing it consciously or subconsciously
 
8:02 PM
I thought that inheriting constructors were just using T::T;?
 
@sehe but it's a few-liner, and hardly worth worrying about
 
in any case now LRiO is being a pussy, so my hatred is more focused in that direction
 
Perhaps you should work on your hatred
 
i meant disappointment
 
@Jefffrey If you wanted to accuse people of that, sbi and (especially) I would be the logical targets.
 
8:04 PM
my hatred vanishes fairly quickly
i seem to fail at being mad to someone for long period of times
 
Do you fail at trusting people?
 
@JerryCoffin why?
 
@sehe a lot
 
Ouch, I didn't want to be right.
 
8:05 PM
funny thing is that I've been right before
 
I reckon that's one hell of a bitter use of "funny"
 
that's the only reason why i trust my own judgment on this
 
double recurring template
 
Hehe. Well. Don't let me stop you from that. o.O
 
@Jefffrey what for? knowing when to walk away?
 
8:06 PM
@Xeo: Problem solved
 
@Puppy Double Rainbow!
 
@Jefffrey Our discussion of (what we perceive as) his failings seems to be what actually triggered his leaving. @sehe had quit as room owner some time before with (seemingly) minimal/no effect on LRiO.
 
holy crap they changed @ing people so that you can see their avatar and shit.
 
@Mgetz no, because he hasn't came back yet
 
I r the amazed
 
8:07 PM
@Jefffrey given that we're still discussing it... I would say it hasn't blown over yet. So it would be inappropriate
 
@Puppy slowpoke
 
hey, I've been a busy man recently
 
Xeo
@Puppy What?
 
@Mgetz as far as I'm concerned we can stop discussing it any time anybody wants. I feel like we all have a lot more to tell each other regarding this thing
 
@Xeo Of inheriting from the allocator.
 
8:08 PM
that's why this keeps getting back
 
Xeo
aha. gratz.
I'mma head to bed, g'night
 
night
 
but i understand that not everybody loves this drama, so I'm willing to stop at any time
 
@Xeo I recommend a bed and pillow instead of beads, but to each his own I guess.
 
@Jefffrey he's gone so let it drop. He'll come back when and if he wants to.
 
Xeo
8:10 PM
@JerryCoffin I have no idea what you're talking about
 
of course
 
@Xeo ...and neither does anybody else (except those who can see the edit history, of course).
 
lol
 
and the creepy factor just went up
 
I feel quite uncomfortable about the fact that somehow this whole "LRiO bashing" (I know, I shouldn't call it _that_) has been ascribed to me.
In fact, I tried to talk to LRiO but he hasn't responded. I think anyone can find these messages to see what I wanted to say.
My dropping ownership wasn't about LRIO. It was about me. I have repeated this many times in different wordings. If people (/cc @Jefffrey) decide they find that unbelievable... well I can't help that.
 
8:12 PM
@JerryCoffin Nah, you are not guilty of anything, because in my weird view you guys were the ones being manipulated.
 
OK, so LRiO is dead to us. If he comes back, he'll presumably be a help vampire.
 
a help zombie
 
:D
 
you guys should read Chimpanzee Politics
 
8:13 PM
@sehe How was it about you?
Didn't you say that you couldn't take LRiO's behavior anymore?
 
boy it's a lot easier to do stuff when you can just whizz over to the kitchen.
 
or something along those lines
 
I have a wheeled chair on a wooden floor
 
user1804599
 
@Puppy I hope you don't have downstairs neighbors :-)
 
8:14 PM
the landlord
 
@Jefffrey I was tired of getting too involved. I was tired of feeling responsible. I was tired of calling people on their behaviour. I was tired of people confronting/opposing me for that. I was momentarily very tired when LRiO picked up the "room ownership abuse" stick. I was tired. I looked for the simplest way to untangle. Cutting that single rope seemed like a simple move.
4
Done.
 
so its his own fault
 
I used to be good at office-chair racing, but I had to give it up after crashing into a fire extingusher and losing two castors.
 
@sehe being a moderator sucks, you're always the bad guy
 
@TemplateRex What. Is that a real book?
 
8:15 PM
@sehe ROOM MEMBERSHIP ABUSE!!!
 
@sehe I think you are taking this whole "being a room owner" way too seriously
 
@Cicada Thank you.
 
@TemplateRex /cc @sbi
 
@Jefffrey shush, its very serious business.
 
8:16 PM
@sehe classic book about coalition building between big apes. It reads like a novel and the drama at the end is unforgettable.
 
@Jefffrey Precisely. That may be the point. So, it's about me laying low and trying to enjoy a lounge that manages itself. There are plenty owners I respect and expect to handle it very well without my help.
 
@sehe Which ones do you not respect I want names
 
There are rare moments in which you should be serious. But most of the time it's all just about handling edge cases and mocking trolls.
 
@TemplateRex Wait. I haven't have sex with any of the inmates! (yet)
@Jefffrey I don't particularly agree. There's a place for that too. And there's boundaries.
 
you can come my place baby
 
8:17 PM
@Jefffrey I don't see any manipulation here. I simply voiced beliefs I'd already formed. From what I could see, sbi was a lot more tentative about it, but basically doing the same.
 
@sehe Go for it. Better that than the servers.
 
@TemplateRex damn you. Now my list is even longer (but thanks for making it more diverse!)
 
@Puppy you are out of character puppy
come on
 
@sehe the book details all kinds of social exchanges, male/male bonding, grooming as well as female/female coalitions that actually empower the dominant male. Applied to this room: starring, responding, laughing, challenging, etc. are all pretty recognizable
 
be more pissed and more angry
 
8:19 PM
what a lonely puppy cant be horny?
 
@sehe are you familiar with the Tinbergen Lecture?
(the biology one, not the economics one)
 
Not that I know (from the name)
Anyways, I was doing stackoverflow.com/a/26473995/85371 there in the meantime.
 
Lounge<C++> - lounge scene - take 9.3768726557e11
 
The Tinbergen Lecture is an academic prize lecture awarded by the Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour (ASAB). == Lecturers == 1974 W.H. Thorpe 1975 G.P. Baerends 1976 J. Maynard Smith 1977 F. Huber 1978 R.A. Hinde 1979 J. Bowlby 1980 W.D. Hamilton 1981 S.J. Gould 1982 H. Kummer 1983 Jörg-Peter Ewert 1984 Frank A. Beach 1985 Peter Marler 1986 Jürgen Aschoff 1987 Aubrey Manning 1988 Stephen T. Emlen 1989 P.P.G. Bateson 1990 J.D. Delius 1991 John R. Krebs 1992 E. Curio 1993 Linda Partridge 1994 Fernando Nottebohm 1995 G.A. Parker 1996 Serge Daan 1997 N.B. Davies 1998 Michael Land 1999 Bert...
 
note to self
whizzing around on chair implies hitting things with chair.
 
8:21 PM
That's the positive outcome. It could have been your leg
 
for a minute I thought you meant things hitting me with chair
 
@JerryCoffin yes, manipulative in the sense that sehe could count on those beliefs and on your reaction
 
that is not manipulation.
 
it's merely knowing someone else.
 
8:23 PM
Frans de Waal spoke in 2007, it's an annual event in honor of Nobel laureate Niko Tinbergen
 
@sehe Now that's real code--17 #includes, 8 usings, and 1 actual statement! :-)
 
it's triggering someone's action to get something in return
call it manipulation, call it whatever you want
 
@JerryCoffin lol. It's sick
 
I also went to see Dawkins and Jared Diamond in 2005/2006, very interesting stuff, lecture is organized by NRC/NWO and accessible to laymen (well, non-professional biologists)
 
triggering people's hatred towards LRiO, in order to get LRiO to leave
 
8:24 PM
by that measurement, practically everything ever does is manipulation.
 
@Puppy I love how programmers think. I can relate
 
you manipulated me into having an opinion about manipulation by stating something about manipulation.
 
> Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.
 
@Puppy dream-within-a-dream, soooo Christopher Nolan
 
there's nothing underhanded or deceptive about simply asking someone for an opinion, or stating your own opinion.
 
8:25 PM
@Jefffrey I think you might be confusing projection with manipulation though
That's still a form of manipulation, arguably
 
@Jefffrey He didn't trigger any hatred at all, as far as I can see. Certainly didn't trigger it (or anything similar) on my part. My dislike for LRiO was caused, triggered (etc.) entirely by LRiO's own posts.
 
@Puppy making yourself a victim of someones in order to trigger the hatred of people in the room towards the "perpetuator" to achieve the tactic of having him leave, if fairly deceptive IMO
 
how, precisely, would he make himself the victim?
 
@JerryCoffin LRiO can be a bit of an Archer...
Archer is an American adult animated television series created by Adam Reed for the FX network. A preview of the series aired on September 17, 2009. The first season premiered on January 14, 2010. The show has been renewed for a sixth and seventh season, each consisting of 13 episodes. The show carries a TV-MA rating. The inspiration for Archer came to Reed while in a cafe in Salamanca, Spain. Finding himself unable to approach a beautiful woman seated nearby, Reed conjured up the idea of a spy who "would have a perfect line". Reed conceived the show's concept while walking along the Vía de la...
 
@Puppy by removing himself from the owner list and call LRiO the cause of that
just an example of course
 
8:28 PM
ok, back to CppCon, from chubby chandelier on to meaty meredith
 
@Mgetz Sorry, but the reference is lost on me--I've never watched that show.
 
Please, never benchmark without optimizations. It's like timing Usain Bolt's 100m dash without telling him he's supposed to run. — Mysticial 5 secs ago
^^ Stole that from @jalf.
 
@Jefffrey sigh :( The thing is, there will never be anything I can see to remove that opinion. I can just ask you to stop repeating it.
It hurts. I'm not the victim. People are not victims if they make decisions based on events and feelings. By making that decision, I stopped being a victim. And I let a group of people down, who trusted me with that ownership :(
 
@Puppy one could even think that not reminding people that nomic exists, in order for their own not-yet-ready proposal to fail, in order to prove the point that absenteeism kills the game, is some sort of manipulative behavior
 
sigh, default proposal number two.
 
8:31 PM
if you can also achieve the point of proving that "penalties later" is not a great idea, then you are might be really onto something
hypothetical examples of course
nothing concrete
@sehe I will
unless it's asked explicitly
 
sbi
Good evening, folks.
 
or attacked explicitly
evening
 
@sbi perfect timing, I'm off :)
 
@sbi Hello.
 
@Jefffrey Wow. I think you're letting things become way too complicated. If you build a web of "what-ifs" intricate enough, soon you can explain every move as a double agenda, or secretly the inverse of what it seems. While interesting, I think the world is necessarily a lot simpler. Memes like "talk is cheap" have an origin.
In the long run, you can judge people by their behaviour. It's either consistent, or it's not. Respect is earned. IMO respect is a measure of "trustworthiness" in most social venues.
 
8:35 PM
@sehe lol
everybody has their own agenda
 
I'm not debating that :)
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sometimes I wonder what's become of our robot. Aren't you supposed to be the one that's telling me how I spilled the necessary numbers to compute this somewhere in spring 2011 here in this room, linking to the very message you found within 27secs?
 
and everybody does everything that is in their power to achieve that agenda
it's as simple as that
 
if you take that in consideration, you can try to explain everybody's action
 
8:36 PM
> try
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why would you need to know a city just to see that the stop you're waiting at is the end of a line??
 
yes, it's not a perfect science
 
sbi
@Xeo Pussy!
 
@Jefffrey And you will succeed. Some of the time. I, for one, learned a valuable lesson today, after reading how you perceived this episode
 
also I don't want you to think that I'm somewhat angry at you or hate you or something
 
8:37 PM
I understand you're not. I just don't like it when people think I'm a double-talking son of a bitch. Sue me :)
 
evening
 
you see, my agenda might be that both sehe and LRiO stay here
 
hi mr virtual
 
@sehe Sure, I will.
 
and you are making me failing this agenda
 
8:38 PM
@Jefffrey Mine too. Have you seen the messages I sent to LRIO?
 
@TemplateRex I got an email by Andrew Sutton today, saying he's working on the very same thing
 
which kinda pisses me off, but at the same time make me respect you because I wasn't able to stop that
 
@AndyProwl wow
 
@Jefffrey What? I'm not making you do anything. I hope. At least, outside understanding me better :(
 
co-authorship?
 
8:39 PM
@sehe you can't deny that what happened after your de-ownership thingy lead to LRiO leaving
 
lol apple.com is using a self signed cert
 
you can claim that you didn't expect that, just like I can claim that you did
 
@TemplateRex not for the moment, possibly in future. He says there's gonna be "some competition", at least in the beginning
 
@Jefffrey I think he absolutely can.
 
(IOW I can throw my proposal away)
 
8:39 PM
@AndyProwl ouch
kiss of death
 
LRiO left because many people in the room don't like him.
 
but why in the moment he did
because we were talking about how LRiO is bad
and why were we talking about it?
 
@TemplateRex kind of, I'm afraid. He's writing the proposal together with the guy who gave that talk about type erasure at cppcon
 
because sehe de-ownered himself "also because of" LRiO
 
it doesn't matter why we were talking about it.
 
8:41 PM
@Jefffrey I don't deny that. I can (vehemently) deny that's what I want. I retrospect I surely would have considered not visibly acting out but quietly deciding to leave it alone. That would have been harder, but at least would have kept all the frogs on the cart...
 
there are thousands of causes to talk about it.
the reason he left is because there was something to talk about.
there could have been any trigger.
 
@Mgetz I'll take a look when I get a chance (i.e., get home, figure out why my computer there isn't working, get it fixed, and just possibly still remember this...)
 
@Puppy I see your point but I'm skeptical
 
@AndyProwl btw, could you give some feedback on a little draft proposal I'm trying to get together?
 
@Mgetz If you're an Apple fanboi, what are the chances that you're going to trust some other CA nearly as much as you do Apple?
 
8:42 PM
@Jefffrey We kind of got that point :)
 
Some people, including me, don't really see what the fuss is all about regarding LRiO
 
@TemplateRex sure, let me go through it
 
tnx
 
he is not any worse than pretty much everybody in this room
 
sbi
@Jefffrey Actually, by now it's mainly you who is making a fuss.
 
8:43 PM
@Jefffrey Me neither. I might have been prone to his misunderstandings, and might have called him out on more occasions than others. But I didn't usually mind his Royal Abbrasiveness
@sbi But I appreciate that he's telling me now.
 
sbi
@Jefffrey If you are tired of talking about this, then why do you keep bringing it up? And why do you keep telling nonsense about @sehe?
When sehe as well as @Jerry and I said [several times that Jerry and I triggered this? Despite your assurances, you haven't said anything new regarding this recently.
In fact, some of what you said is not just nonsense, it's insulting.
 
lol
ok I'll stop
 
@Jefffrey Now, that's a stretch. You already admitted as much to me before
@Jefffrey handshake!
 
@sehe what?
when?
 
@JerryCoffin I'm not an apple fanboi, just someone who reads hacker news
 
8:44 PM
@Jefffrey I'll edit if I find it in time: Oops. Confused you with AlexM there: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=19441328#19441328 (i
 
sbi
@Jefffrey Yet, many a message telling the opposite got lots of stars.
 
people star lots of things
 
stars mean anything and nothing
 
I don't really see stars as an important measurement of anything.
and since I'm the only person who counts then therefore stars don't mean anything.
 
sbi
And do you remember when I kicked him out of ownership, re-installed the usual cabal, kicked myself out of ownership again, and told the new old owner that, if they think different that I do about him, I'd be fine with it? Why do you think none of the owners re-installed him?
@Mgetz Yeah. Especially so, since this has happened so often before.
 
8:47 PM
him not being good as an owner has nothing to do with him being bad as a person
 
@Jefffrey They mean something about the dominant sentiment at a moment, the level of boredom and the willingness of people to derail stuff, most of the time!
 
to snub Shog9 without actually pissing him off so much he brings the hammer back down?
 
@Puppy Shog9 was room-owner here?
 
no.
 
@sbi That's nonsense?
Really?
 
sbi
8:48 PM
@TemplateRex He's a chat owner.
 
@sbi oh ok
 
hi
 
hello
 
I'll be in my bed for the night. Cheers everyone. Don't do anything I wouldn't do Oh no, I don't have to meddle in that anymore.
 
lol
 
8:49 PM
personally I still want my italics back
 
@Mgetz Not saying you are--just pointing out that Apple's' customers seem to be sufficiently loyal, that I doubt most consider a self-signed certificate a weakness.
 
I'm not here enough to cause major damage anymore
 
@sehe now that's manipulative ;-)
 
sbi
@Jefffrey telling me, who's had "problems" with him here in this room when you didn't yet know how to spell "SO" I was being manipulated into saying my opinion out loud isn't just nonsense. It's insulting nonsense. You are stupid to say this.
 
@sbi Well. I've decided he can have his opinion. I'd be grated if many people thought the same. But I'd live
 
sbi
8:50 PM
@sehe AFAICS, he's the only one here.
 
@JerryCoffin you're reading A LOT more into what I said than I meant, I was just chuckling that such a big corporation would use a self signed cert on their main website. To be brutally honest very few people will access that website over HTTPS so it's completely irrelevant.
 
@TemplateRex Sorry. Not intended :) It was the point. I'm glad I was here to have this conversation, but it's also the same tiring things :S
 
@sbi On that I agree
 
@sehe it's like walking out of a room, getting in the last word, works like a charm to annoy people
 
@sbi Even so, that's useful for me to hear. And I'm happy that he told me.
@TemplateRex ikr.
35 mins ago, by Jefffrey
There are rare moments in which you should be serious. But most of the time it's all just about handling edge cases and mocking trolls.
 
8:52 PM
@sehe isn't it beer'o'clock there?
 
^^
 
sbi
@Jefffrey And maybe you just haven't been in the role enough to appreciate the trouble this can cause.
 
@Mgetz 22:52am, and I don't usually beer
 
but goodnight anyway, don't fret over us while you sleeep ;-)
 
Cheers
 
sbi
8:53 PM
@sehe Me, too. If only so that I could jump on him. :)
 
wow
 
@sbi :S (<-- that's Robot's "mixed feelings" emoticon)
 
sbi
@Jefffrey Hey, there was a smiley!
 
I would really love to see that
 
Phew. That was close
 
8:53 PM
@TemplateRex looks good to me and the proposal makes perfect sense. Concerning index-based raw loops, I do not find them a compelling motivation: I try to avoid them and use range-based for loops instead, with something like a sequence generator that performs deduction on v.size(). Example #2 is a better motivation IMO
 
@Mgetz Oh! The time! Bye!
 
sbi
@Jefffrey It's fairly easy to see. Last thing on the line.
@TemplateRex Hey, plugging de Waals is my part in this theater! (That's the book that got me hooked to the guy, BTW.)
 
whoops
missed it
 
sbi
@sehe Are you even serious? I have advertised it here several times!
(So you didn't take this serious when I pointed it out?)
@Cicada Thanks, but I found this in the transcript all by myself. :)
 
@AndyProwl thanks for your feedback. I agree on the range-for, but sometimes I need an index inside the loop, as well as the element
 
8:55 PM
@Jefffrey You can choose this, remember. Even I can see you're not trying to be mad at me, so why can't you... take a smiley for granted. I do appreciate that you just reserve that right to stick to your own perception of reality.
 
@TemplateRex My immediate reaction is that the motivation you've shown for size_t is much stronger than the motivation for ptrdiff_t. For your second example, I think it would be better to add an overload of std::accumulate that deduces the return type as std::iterator_traits<InIt>::value_type, and uses a value-initialized value_type as its initial value. I'd probably use that overload 90+% of the time if it existed.
 
I think I can see how LRiO got hated in the first place.
 
@TemplateRex 'We' -> no co-authors
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey He's—what the pirate calls it—a twat.
 
@JerryCoffin thanks, yes size_t is the main thing, just added ptrdiff_t for completeness
 
8:57 PM
I don't think z and t are good picks for literal suffixes.
 
sbi
@Jefffrey You know, in the first place, he wasn't. Not here, anyway. Others, however...
 
@sbi Apparently not. Sorry? I tend to miss obvious things. Like, things being actual books unless I see the cover (I really think you only mentioned, on multiple occasions, "studies" in this area. I don't usually get tempted to read assorted "studies"). It happens to me.
 
@TemplateRex Interesting that Andy and I had precisely opposite takes on which example was more meaningful.
 
@Rapptz hm, I never write "I" in papers, always "we".
 
It's probably because I'm calmer than he is, but otherwise I would "bring up most of the room against me" too.
 
8:58 PM
@TemplateRex right, I meant something like for (auto x : sequence(0, v.size())
 
sbi
@sehe Oh c'mon. Stop playing you really think I am really insulted. That's such a silly game!
 
@JerryCoffin the alternative overload for accumulate is a good thing though, I'll add a note, tnx!
 
you just get the index, you can then retrieve the element from it
 
sbi
@TemplateRex pluralis majestatis
 
@sbi Oh. Phew. Good night then
 
8:59 PM
@TemplateRex Yes--I've actually implemented it, and found it quite useful.
 

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