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1:00 PM
I even call it out as a specific instance of SRP at the end.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I am not really sure how to apply this, it sounds subjective.
 
Ideally, if we want to have a swiss army knife following SRP, each tool would be a modular part of it that could be swapped in/out easily. The key thing about SRP is allowing easy maintenance without any (or as little as necessary) overlap between parts.
 
@TheForestAndtheTrees er...
 
@TheForestAndtheTrees In large systems that's really hard to achieve though. Especially the dependency bit
 
1:02 PM
The thing about a Swiss Army knife is that it provides several tools.
It's not like a spork, which is a single tool for two purposes.
 
The key thing about SRP is that it states that a component should have exactly one responsibility. Easier maintenance etc are nice consequences of this, but the SRP is about responsibility, not maintenance
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes True. I guess I was thinking of the old setup, but it does internally use a vector, yes. It acts as a wrapper to it, I guess.
 
and the single responsibility in this case is basically "provide a fuckton of serviceable tools in a single unit so you don't accidentally lose half of them". If you make it modular then congrats, you've just reinvented the toolbox :p
except with shittier tools
 
@jalf ToolManager.
 
also, I'm pretty sure "easy maintenance" isn't high on the list of priorities for swiss army knives :)
 
1:04 PM
@Pawnguy7 no, it's not subjective
 
@jalf They tend to be pretty robust.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, but that just means they need little maintenance. Not that they are easy to maintain
If it breaks, you don't fix it, you buy a new one
at least that's what I would do :p
 
Yeah, and that's another reason why we can't stretch this analogy too far.
 
screw you wikipedia and your trying to be intelligent about languages
 
Software maintenance and physical tool maintenance are fundamentally different ideas that happen to use the same word.
 
1:06 PM
aye
 
Well, some physical tools are designed for easy maintenance too. And some software is designed to be nearly impossible to maintain, and just require no maintenance.
 
Maybe I should move annex over to C++1y and decltype(auto) everything :v
 
But there is still a fundamental difference in that what we usually mean when we talk about "maintaining" software isn't just "repairing" it, but "adding new stuff to it and making it better"
 
@jalf Yeah, that's what I meant.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton You love that bleeding edge, don't you.
 
1:09 PM
Oh, NVidia shield has open recovery
 
aha, "The term "Swiss Army knife" was coined by US soldiers after World War II due to the difficulty they had in pronouncing the German name"
 
so they encourage flashing it :v
 
I did not know that
 
@Xeo fix was really the first time I really checked out C++1y and oh my god decltype(auto) and improved return type deduction.
 
Xeo
:)
 
1:09 PM
not the bleeding edge, but on the edge ... bleeding ...
 
@LucDanton I don't know if any compiler actually implements decltype(auto) yet.
 
I thought generic lambdas would be 'it' but once again it's a combination of features.
 
@DeadMG I was going say that exactly
 
@DeadMG Okay then.
 
@TonyTheLion Apparently, Clang 3.3 does.
 
1:10 PM
oh Clang
 
and Clang SVN has return type deduction for normal functions
none of the fucking sweet lambda stuff though
 
@jalf Hmm, it doesn't look like a particularly difficult one.
 
@CatPlusPlus #LoungeChat That might be of interest for us
 
¬_¬ ffs github, get your shit together, my 'site' is not 100% CSS
@jalf TIL... what's the German name?
 
so @thecoshman is blogging about REST
 
1:13 PM
@thecoshman I dunno, I closed the tab already :)
 
We really need that blog gathering something
 
@thecoshman Schweizer Offiziersmesser.
 
that's not hard to pronounce...
 
Swiss officer's knife, literally.
@BartekBanachewicz Merkins.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Swiss army knife it is
 
1:14 PM
we're European and have been hearing German a'plenty.
 
I doubt that Merkins in 1935 heard much
 
@BartekBanachewicz Indeed... going to get a domain before I 'publish' stuff though.
 
@thecoshman what's wrong with thecoshman.github.io? :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz huh?
 
1:15 PM
@DeadMG For a very brief instant I was wondering if you were referencing the terryfying Swiss military past.
 
@BartekBanachewicz it's not what I want :P
 
@thecoshman a site that would scrape links to latest posts from all the loungers
 
terrible? I thought that they had essentially resisted everyone who ever tried to invade them, ever.
 
Yeah, ambiguous choice of a word.
 
fuck it, where's a good site to buy domains from?
 
1:16 PM
kinda like England, really
 
@BartekBanachewicz [ʃvaɪʦɐ ɔfiʦiɐsmɛsɐ]
 
@thecoshman depends on suffix
 
@BartekBanachewicz ah. Well, if such a site was set up, I'd certainly link back to it.
 
I seem to recall that it's like, no invaders ever landed on English soil since 1066 or someshit like that
 
@BartekBanachewicz .com obviously :P
 
1:16 PM
@thecoshman I have .pl :F
 
@thecoshman I just buy them from OVH for convenience.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes how much for how long?
 
not much really
 
Domains are fucking cheap anywhere.
 
few quid a year, I can do that
 
1:17 PM
Except for the really expensive TLDs, like .xxx.
Those are expensive anywhere.
 
@DeadMG 1990 for one of the Channel Islands though!
 
so how I point it to github site? and how easy is it to have a subdomain point to some other server? say if I want minecraft.cosh.ie to point to my server, but cosh.ie to point to github
 
@thecoshman these are different A records
 
@thecoshman First, you need a CNAME file in your repo.
 
@DeadMG Also depends if you count William III of Orange
 
1:19 PM
Lemme check my zone.
 
I wonder if there's an easy way of getting the latest posts from GH pages
 
operator@ is a C++ operator?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, that bit is simple enough...
 
@TonyTheLion yep. any operator
@thecoshman then you got to domain configuration and do stuff
there are many ways to set that up.
 
@thecoshman Then point an A record to 204.232.175.78
 
1:21 PM
hmm... do I want to take up the offer some free hosting...
could use it for email I guess...
hey, it's free :D
 
guys how did I even become a programmer?
 
it isn't going to make anything else a PITA is it?
 
You are a wannabe, not a programmer
 
@thecoshman I don't take it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't want to be a programmer ;_;
 
1:23 PM
@TonyTheLion No. @ is a traditional placeholder used to mean any operator.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah I see. Here's a man who knows where I got this from.
 
@Crowz uh then don't problem solved
 
there are a surprisingly large number of different jobs you can get. You don't have to be a programmer
 
wisdom
 
I wonder if relaxed constexpr will mean sprinkling generic code everywhere with constexpr noise.
 
1:27 PM
@jalf You know, I considered changing career, but I didn't find anything that wouldn't a) cost me a fortune in schooling costs and b) was as good paying as programming and c) I could do without dying in agony. (I even considered becoming an airline pilot, but see criteria above)
 
@sehe Love what you did.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :S selection of DNS servers? OVH, a dedicated I already have (but will soon be returned as I am getting a new one) or Customize my own?
 
@TonyTheLion well, there are tradeoffs to anything. "As good paying" limits the field a lot
 
@jalf Indeed.
 
1:28 PM
also, programming can cost a fortune in schooling costs as well
 
@thecoshman I let it stay with their own. I had no trouble so far and have been putting off thinking about it as much as I can.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok then
 
Hmmm, been putting off a lot of things.
 
@jalf yea I skipped that bit.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You should put off procrastinating and get on with things.
 
@TonyTheLion yeah, put that on the todo list for later :)
 
1:31 PM
:)
 
@TonyTheLion I just queue other things before them.
 
0
Q: C++ operator overloading doesn't respect math requirements

FelicsI have to write a math library for internal use. I started to look at different implementation from open source libs and I found some weird things on operator overloading - they don't respect mathematical/logical requirements Example 1: Irrlight Matrix (http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/matri...

lol
 
i kinda don't feel like doing anything today
 
"Anyone who practices non-blocking I/O should be burned as a witch" - PHP developers.
@BartekBanachewicz Yea I know how that feels.
 
1:33 PM
@TonyTheLion wat.
anyone who practices PHP should have their I/O blocked
5
 
ahahahahah
 
@EtiennedeMartel it is. Religion is everywhere
 
@sehe I think you're spot on.
 
> Internal compiler error: Error reporting routines re-entered.
 
Ow.
@LucDanton Yo dawg.
 
@sehe Right.
 
@Bartek regarding your last sentence here stackoverflow.com/a/18104836/46642: his point was that, with multiplication not being commutative, one should not overload * for it.
(Don't take that as my agreement with the idea; it's merely a clarification)
 
Anyway. That gave me another thing to talk about on my blog.
 
Do I have to wait a while for OVH to let me admin my domain?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, and I still disagree with that
 
1:43 PM
You know, I agree with him in general, but he is wrong. I'm glad I installed paradox protection months ago.
 
Ohhhh
paradox protection - sounds fancy
 
"assert(a*b == b*a) should not fail in any context." That's just wrong: the fact that all built-in types exhibit this behavior does not mean that user-defined types must do the same. In particular, an operator that lets you multiply matrices must not be commutative, otherwise it would not do its job correctly. — dasblinkenlight 42 secs ago
@R.MartinhoFernandes paradox protection?
 
oh there we are... now to set up an A record :S
 
so what's your domain name after all? ;>
 
TIL if you press 1337 on a youtube video page you get to read comments in leet.
 
1:46 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I give you one guess :P
 
@thecoshman mylittlecoshman.com
 
@TonyTheLion What?
 
@Jeffrey Rofl, so you do. It's a big improvement over their usual readability.
 
uh people y u upvote As and not Qs
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey! I'm still using Paradox tables!
 
1:49 PM
Hi
 
@BartekBanachewicz very close :P
 
@DeadMG lol
 
@MartinJames Oh god, the databasE?
Don't answer that.
Sanity at risk.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Legacy shit...
 
Daisy is sleeping on my bed
 
1:49 PM
I'm just going to leave this here, this is mostly in regards to your question asking style. — Tony The Lion 4 mins ago
 
@BartekBanachewicz is there any way to have a private chat around here? I don't think everyone is interested on operators overloading:)
 
@TonyTheLion Dude.
 
@DeadMG Thanks for the update. You should really start a twitter feed dedicated to that.
 
now she is cleaning her ass
 
1:50 PM
@Felics actually quite a lot people are :)
 
@Felics Howdy.
 
well, it really surprised me that she's flexible enough to actually get her tongue there, you know/
 
@DeadMG Daisy has a pet donkey?
 
@DeadMG TMI
 
dat pun
 
1:51 PM
@MartinJames Yo dawg I heard you like pets so I gave your pet a pet so she can lick— wait, that's enough.
 
@BartekBanachewicz - why don't you think it's better to use named functions instead of operator overloading when the operators don't have the same behavior as for built in types?
 
@Felics Er, no.
they should have the behaviour the user expects.
 
@Felics What operator do you use for matrix multiplication in mathematics?
 
Xeo
Operators are for syntactic niceness
 
@Felics because I don't consider built-in types being a special case we should all try to mirror.
 
1:52 PM
using * for matrices meaning matrix multiplication is expected behaviour.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, you're probably right - we should stop being an ass.
 
@DeadMG ok, then let's consider operator -- for matrices - what should the user expect as a result?
 
That exists?
Ugh.
 
> Serialize the DiffTime as a Rational, as Ertugrul said.
 
Xeo
GLM seems to have it. Maybe bulk -- on all elements?
 
1:53 PM
This sounds sane!
 
o_0 I have no idea what I'm doing
 
please read my question exactly then give me a negative vote!!! thanks — Hava Darabi 15 hours ago
 
template <typename T>
GLM_FUNC_QUALIFIER tmat4x4<T> const operator--
(
tmat4x4<T> const & m,
int
)
{
return tmat4x4<T>(
m[0] - typename tmat4x4<T>::value_type(1),
m[1] - typename tmat4x4<T>::value_type(1),
m[2] - typename tmat4x4<T>::value_type(1),
m[3] - typename tmat4x4<T>::value_type(1));
}
 
@Felics memberwise -1
 
@thecoshman Everyday.
 
1:54 PM
@Felics -- for a matrix is just dumb. But +, - and * are pretty well-defined mathematical operations on matrices
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ugh.
Kill it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I am not saying it should exist!
That was just a response to his Q
 
matrox
 
maybe my question doesn't uses the right samples
 
Xeo
1:54 PM
matrix.addall(-1)!
 
like the graphics card company :)
 
but I think you understand what I mean:)
 
-- is typically M -= "one"
 
There was a guy at school who insisted upon saying "matriceeeeee" because he couldn't comprehend a plural that differed from its singular.
 
1:55 PM
I mean there is an abuse of operator overloading on most of the math libraries
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Too much coffee?
 
and for matrix addition "one" would be all 1s
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's just abusive.
 
@Felics they can be useful sometimes. Deal with it and move on.
 
I keep getting a 'read only' warning when I try to modify the 'A' record. It already has one pointing to some ovh advertising ip
 
1:56 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's the only thing that makes sense... kinda... or not.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Being abusive?
 
yeah well that's a fucked up idea
 
@Felics but I don't consider it abuse to define C++ operators which reflect the mathematical meaning of the operator
 
template <typename U>
GLM_FUNC_DECL tvec4<T> & operator*=(tvec4<U> const & v);
I didn't read the code, but what does this mean?
 
@jalf is this that + thing from yesterday
 
1:57 PM
just by definition
?
 
write your own library!
 
@Felics it means cat
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf no. go read the transcript
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf then fuck off the discussion
 
1:57 PM
*, for example, is not in general a commutative operation in algebra. So why should we require it to be commutative in C++? But it is very much well-defined for matrices. So I see no problem in a C++ matrix class implementing * to perform matrix multiplicatino
 
@BartekBanachewicz fuck off from fucking off
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf you are annoying.
 
Xeo
@Felics vector-by-vector multiplication, which is bad to have as an operator, IMO
 
@jalf ok - maybe * for matrices is not the best example. But *= for vector4?
 
24 secs ago, by Eiyrioü von Kauyf
@BartekBanachewicz fuck off from fucking off
 
1:58 PM
@Felics sure, that one is questionable, and I would use a named function instead. Not because you can't multiply vectors by vectors, but because there different ways to do it and it is not clear which one is intended
 
@Xeo can you please tell me what is the mathematical meaning of that?
 
Xeo
There are two valid definitions for the result of a vector-by-vector multiplication - cross product and inner product
 
@Felics Why don't you ask G-Truc why he put that in GLM?
 
@xeo cross product is defined only in 3D space
 
he's a rather chatty guy :v
 
1:59 PM
@Felics hmm?
 

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