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Xeo
8:00 PM
Wait, now the password works
 
the password is gone now :p
 
:lol: twitch is horrible
 
Xeo
Nah, it still showed for me
 
Ads might be there because I'm not paying for anything
 
@CatPlusPlus Nice placeholder.
 
8:02 PM
The password should work if you're getting a prompt for some inexplicable reason
 
@JerryCoffin +1 for effort
 
lol, why the huge watermark? wtf is dxtory
 
Again, not paying for anything
 
Dxtory.com?
 
but xsplit can capture video on it's own, what do you need dxtory for?
 
Xeo
8:07 PM
"catlike" haha
 
hmmmm
I think I finally found a way around one of Clang's deficiencies.
 
Ell
meh. I can't do parsers >.<
 
Xeo
Rewriting Clang? :D
 
no
 
@DeadMG: which deficiency?
 
8:14 PM
Vitamines?
 
@nneonneo Clang's code generation.
it's the suck.
if you ask it to give you declarations that weren't used in the original C++ source code, it destroys it's type system.
 
so, that's an RTTI issue then?
 
no.
it's a codegen issue.
 
I don't follow.
 
right
Clang has a Codegen library, you give it some AST and it spits out an llvm::Module.
but if you wish to use the contents of the AST by linking to the llvm::Module, then you're fucked, because Clang only generates the bits it used, instead of the bits you need to use.
if you kick it in the balls and make it generate the bits you need, then it will cry and utterly screw it up and get the LLVM all wrong.
 
8:16 PM
You seem to run into so many issues with Clang/LLVM it makes me want to consider another VM for my language
 
@Borgleader Honestly, LLVM is fine.
 
@StackedCrooked Yup -- certainly no need for a "what have you tried?" comment.
 
ah.
 
well, it's kinda annoying, but
it's mostly Clang where I have trouble
it's simply not designed to be what I need
 
well...would parsing GCC's intermediate output be any more fun?
:P
 
8:19 PM
no, it would be one fuck of a lot worse.
and then I'd have to do all the processing myself
 
@nneonneo gcc did (fairly) recently improve in this direction, but it's still pretty poor.
 
exactly. it's a damn shame it's so hard to find tools precisely matched to our needs, but eh. that's software development for ya
 
whereas right now, I can just be like, "Oy, Clang, you useless fuck, do overload resolution for me".
and "Clang you worthless cunt, go look up this name for me/instantiate this template for me/etc".
it just can't generate accurate LLVM for me.
 
WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
DXTORY COSTS 3,600 EUROS
Three THOUSAND Six HUNDRED EUROS.
 
lol
 
8:23 PM
@ThePhD Eh.
It's 3600 yen.
 
...oooh, that is the Yen symbol.
Herpaderp.
 
lmao
 
38 bucks.
 
Yeah, that Y-shaped thing really looked like a E.
 
I was like "this has to be some ground-breaking, revolutionary software here..."
 
8:24 PM
where the hell is the euro symbol on my keyboard
 
It replaces $ on most keyboards I've seen
 
€ ¥
there we go
opt-shift-2, cuz that was obvious
 
yay the pound is falling
 
I forgot how this thing looks like :welp:
 
8:26 PM
Lol.
 
$3,675, not a typo. At least I think Maya is worth that much
 
Of course Maya would cost an arm and a leg.
 
@nneonneo Yeah, 3D modeling software isn't cheap.
 
I've seen incredibly shit software sell for 6 figures
@EtiennedeMartel Except Blender.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Except for Blender/Sketchup ;)
 
8:27 PM
Blender saves lives.
 
And hey, for a piece of free software, Blender is actually pretty damn good
 
Anyone else wants to mention how Blender is cheap?
 
And thankfully, it's not lagging far behind Maya or 3ds anymore.
 
well...
 
Man, before?
Blender was shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttyyyyyyyyyyy.
 
8:28 PM
uni gets me free autodesk stuff :3
 
@melak47 The internet gets me free stuff. :3
 
working at AutoDesk gets you free stuff :3
(or having friends work there)
 
One day when I can disassemble well, I will contribute to the people who have saved my life and wallet hundreds of times over.
 
I'm bad at this
 
@CatPlusPlus Just VATS everything.
It's not like it costs anything to use, really.
 
8:29 PM
@ThePhD: so...you wish to be a professional cracker
 
I wish. :D
 
in a past life I cracked classic mac software
that was nearly a decade ago
I used to be so good at PPC assembly...(fond memories)
 
Though, apparently it's not as easy as just jumping conditionals.
So at some point I think I want to learn direct-memory injection.
 
@ThePhD: you'd be surprised at how much software keels over when you jump conditionals
also, you know you're 1337 when you can jump a conditional by voltage-spiking a smartcard at exactly the right time.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Can I mention it again? :P
 
8:32 PM
I wonder how DRM is handled nowadays.
 
Always-on internet connection
duh
 
Besides the always-online shit, traditional DRM is just a series of checks.
 
Ell
blender is awesome!
 
Do they just pepper those checks all throughout their codebase?
And then hope there's so many it's impossible to conditional-jump them all?
 
8:33 PM
@ThePhD It doesn't really matter with stuff like Maya or Visual Studio because most of their customers are companies, and those won't risk getting caught with pirated software.
 
SNEAK ATTACK BITCH
 
Lol
Cat's having way too much fun in Fallout. xD
@EtiennedeMartel I meant for shit like Games.
Or orther lower-level software that people expect regular users to pay for.
 
@ThePhD: always-online is basically impossible to defeat, unlike most traditional DRM
 
@nneonneo Unless you emulate a server or something or other.
 
because the only meaningful way to beat it is to emulate the server, which is hard
yeah
 
8:35 PM
@nneonneo Not impossible. It simply takes longer because they have to reverse engineer the servers.
 
My highlight in Fallout 3 was a Sneak Attack Critical caused by a headshot with a mini-nuke on one of the big guys (forgot what they were called).
 
@EtiennedeMartel: poorly. It takes a lot of work
because it's not just "nop over some jumps", it's "write server code to handle however many players will use the cracked software"
and maintain the servers, and somehow get funding to run them
 
You could just have the client make their own computer the server.
 
Those plants are seriously annoying
 
And just have htem run that shit.
 
8:36 PM
@ThePhD: works if there's a meaningful single-player component, I suppose
 
@nneonneo Not necessarily -- if you're going to do it, you write it as a proxy that the user will run on their local machine, and (for example) have them edit their HOSTS file to point the DNS name to the local proxy.
 
If it's a multiplayer game I'd probably just end up paying for it, unless the servers were able to be hosted by anyone or it was made by Unknown Worlds.
@JerryCoffin Yeah, that's what I meant.
 
Jesus fuck how does this look like
 
I meant for Single Player games that use always-online DRM.
Assassin's Creed and essentially SimCity.
And Diablo III. I would've like to just play the single player.
 
@ThePhD SimCity is not single player.
 
8:38 PM
Ugh I need tea
 
@EtiennedeMartel I would probably play it like that.
And it has a qualified Single-Player mode, as well.
So requiring always-online for that is an ass move, as always.
 
Their response still makes me chuckle
> However, he added, there was a positive side to the delays. "What we saw was that players were having such a good time they didn't want to leave the game, which kept our servers packed and made it difficult for new players to join," he wrote.
 
Lol.
The great part is if like 200,000 people played Single Player,
that'd lock out the people who wanted to do Multiplayer.
Good shit, EA. :3c
 
I really hope this sets a precedent for people to not do Always-Online DRM but I doubt it
 
Oh god I hope so as well
 
8:48 PM
@Rapptz I said before, and I'll repeat: I think it would be better to avoid this entirely, but if they insist on doing this, they really need to use something like Amazon EC2 or Google App Engine, so they have (essentially) infinite capacity available when they need it. If they want to use their own servers too, and only use external resources for "overflow", that's fine, but the current situation shows poor execution and worse (lack of) planning.
 
Reminds me when the head of Maxis said they "underestimated" how many people would play.
 
@EtiennedeMartel: Day9 was stream SimCity yesterday, and when the show started he logged in to show the city he worked on the night before. Then logged out to make a new one and wasn't actually able to make a new city for a good 30 min due to server shenanigans. Way to go EA
 
Which is weird. I mean, I'm pretty sure EA's marketing had a fairly good idea of how many people would buy that on launch day.
If you add that to the amount of people who preordered, and assume all of those people are gonna want to play immediately, then you can check if you got enough servers to handle the load.
 
They probably forgot to account for doing expotentially many calculations that would be done on the server to handle each instance and each addition of a player, on top of the always-online DRM.
 
@JerryCoffin I just really hope no one does this. A single-play aspect of a game and/or multiplayer shouldn't be limiting like that
 
8:50 PM
@EtiennedeMartel That's PR talk for "we cheaped out on servers and now were drowning in the shitstorm it created"
 
Multiplayer games like TF2 are fine because the people themselves provide the server, and I think that's a nice way of doing it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I suspect it's a bit like traffic on streets though -- a fairly small increase in traffic flow can lead to a massive increase in congestion.
 
New EA game next month : 'SimDataCenter'
6
 
@Borgleader From what I've seen, the servers themselves leading to problems is fairly unusual -- it's more often things like switches, routers, cooling, bandwidth, etc. Worse, any problem tends to worsen quickly (one thing overheats, placing even more load on everything else...)
 
8:57 PM
@JerryCoffin That's not possible. They need to do everything themselves. This is game programming after all.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess I'll have to take your word for that, but you may have a point. Maybe we should rename them from "EA" to "NIH".
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Stop bashing game programming. :|
 
It wouldn't be the first time they've hosted multiplayer, though.
Or made low-latency network code.
Or ran server-side code.
 
user142019
@MartinJames Data Center Tycoon ಠ_ಠ
 
EA is seasoned with professionals. If they couldn't provide even one or two people to help the Maxis team out -- or if Maxis couldn't help itself to any of the resources available -- they're... well, just kind of bad.
 
9:01 PM
@JerryCoffin Actually in this case it seems it is the servers, I say that because apparently some of the processing is done server side as EA decided to disable certain features of the game to lessen the server load.
 
@Xeo I'm mocking the idea that the usual solutions to problems don't apply to game programming because game programming is special.
 
@CatPlusPlus You're fat! Eat something or lose some of that junk. :P
 
Ell
wat. why have microsoft been sued for putting ie as default?
 
I didn't notice gecko meat gives -1 STR
 
@Ell Anti competition stuff. Ask Jerry Coffin, he sunk them for it. IIRC
 
9:02 PM
Unicode is supported to some degree with "Wide chars". Note that "unicode" means different things in different contexts. For example Microsoft means [in most places] a restricted set of characters that are 16-bits wide, with no encoding for characters outside of the first 16-bits of Unicode. Unicode itself is a 32-bit encoding, but there is 8- and 16-bit variants that allow encoding the full 32-bit range using multiple tokens as one character, the UTF-8 and UTF-16. — Mats Petersson 7 hours ago
The Microsoft part is bullshit, right?
 
If they're referring to C++, I wouldn't know.
Microsoft says it's got Unicode identifiers and uses them everywhere.
 
Don
Wtf is this.. :I created a basic lua socket and tried to connect to it via Actionscript 3, it connects well but the messages I send won't deliver, when I test it with telnet they do~ any guesses why this is happening? o-o
 
STUPID MEAT
 
Wooow.
@R.MartinhoFernandes The comments in that question have some really whacked-out ideas about Unicode. o_O
See? This is why the world needs you.
This is why the world needs ogonek.
(For MSVC? <3)
 
Now it's worn off
 
9:07 PM
@CatPlusPlus I noticed. :O You're running about freely now.
 
Ugh, BOCU-1 is patented. WTF
 
BOCU-1 ?
 
Unicode compression scheme.
 
This was the most retarded way to approach the town ever
 
9:10 PM
Hm. You're writing compression into Ogonek now?
 
But the bridge is mined :(
 
@CatPlusPlus Run through it like a champ.
 
@ThePhD It's an encoding.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes. UCS-2 is a long time ago.
 
Oh. So like UTF16, UTF8, and UTF32, it's just another way to have bytes of Unicode?
 
9:13 PM
Yes. But it's patented by IBM.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, it looks like BOCU-1 is the only one that's patent-encumbered. You might as well just not use it at all and leave it be.
 
So much for stealth
 
@CatPlusPlus You're fat again. :c
 
group hug <3
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It is apparently a "better" way of UTF8, but you might as well just use UTF8. I mean, wouldn't it require a special decoder to decode BOCU-1 ?
 
Xeo
9:15 PM
@TonyTheLion I thought you'd say "All-you-can-eat"
 
Damn this Waf is complicated
 
@ThePhD So what? Doesn't it require a special decoder to decode UTF-8?
 
... Wait, what am I saying, of course it'd require a special decoder, like every other Unicode encoding.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I just noticed. Sorry, I'm derping out hard today. :c
 
Don
@BartekBanachewicz Hey
 
9:16 PM
@Don hi there
 
Anyway, I removed that from my task list. Closed as wontfix. I feel like a pro now.
 
@Xeo lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... People specifically asked for BOCU-1?
 
Uh, I don't know why we can't just say "build all .cpp shit into .o and link into .exe or .lib"
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz What're you complaining about exactly?
 
9:17 PM
@ThePhD No, but I had it on my task list. github.com/rmartinho/ogonek/issues/21
 
@Xeo every build system thinks that I am going to require shitstorm of configuration, which makes it complicated to the point it's hardly usable
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh. Quick! Hide that shit, before some IBM employee gets suspiiciooous.
 
and I just want to compile and link a few files -.-
 
@BartekBanachewicz Doing that in SCons is pretty simple.
 
I will read SCons manual then.
Because Waf, being certainly powerful, struck me as a bit overcomplicated.
In Visual Studio you just drag the files to project and they compile and link -.-
maybe I should do an Eclipse project for Minicraft
:P
 
9:19 PM
@ThePhD Apparently they give a royalty-free license to implementers that request it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So you'd have to call/e-mail them and hope for the best?
 
I'm not very good at this
 
Don
@BartekBanachewicz I tried using luasocket a little bit today and I encountered an odd issue, since you've experienced with it I thought I'd ask you~ I created a very simply socket using Lua (it receives messages and displays them) I connected to it using telnet and it worked fine, but the messages I send via Actionscript aren't received, even though the connection is made successfully :/
 
@CatPlusPlus Fuck arms, don't need those shits.
 
9:21 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, mostly BS. Once upon a time they used UCS-2 (for which this was semi-true) but they switched to UTF-16 in Win2K, if memory serves.
 
@ThePhD Yeah. The Unicode Technical Note that describes the algorithm has a snail mail address and fax number. I won't bother with it for now.
 
@Don Looks like Actionscript sucks :P now are you sure it sends them properly?
 
Don
@BartekBanachewicz Haha yeah it does look like that, but there's not much to it in actionscript, it's very simple and it seemed to be sending alright to different sockets
 
it's actionscript. I wouldn't touch that with 10 foot pole
 
Don
xD
 
Don
Basically if telnet worked with it, actionscript should too right?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not enough AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean
 
@Don "looks like AS sucks"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That readme reminds me how fugly and stupid PHP namespace syntax is.
 
Don
Alrighty then, I'll go and check around about actionscript and just make sure I did this right, it doesn't give me any errors either so uh..
 
9:26 PM
@Borgleader My involvement with the IE part was relatively minimal (there wasn't really much of a technical side to that). As for the decision and reasoning: ec.europa.eu/competition/publications/cpn/2010_1_12.pdf (4 page PDF).
 
@Don what do you mean doesn't work. Does it connect at all?
 
Don
@BartekBanachewicz It connects, but when I use write() to send messages, the server itself won't display anything, as if it didn't receive a thing
 
add '\r\n'
 
Don
Tries
 
Ell
@Don I assume you're reading on the other end :P
 
Don
@Ell Yes lol, well "receive()" to be exact
 
@BartekBanachewicz That was my first guess too
 
Don
As I said, it works fine with telnet
 
@Don so did it work when you added \r\n?
 
@Don You type one char in telnet, and it's received/displayed?
 
9:30 PM
WOOPS
 
Don
@Martin Yeah
No it didn't work with \r\n
 
damn. weird.
 
Don
Ikr? Dx
 
i can't actionscript so I can't help you with that
 
Don
Tests again with telnet just to be sure
 
9:32 PM
@Xeo Und 'Katze', würd' ich sagen? :)
 
Don
Yep works with telnet again..
 
Xeo
@sehe I thought he was specifically meaning our Cat here
 
":)"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Might also be worth noting that when MS adopted UCS-2, what they supported was Unicode in essentially its entirety. ISO 10646 was still a completely separate standard competing with Unicode. It was only later that the two merged. UTF-16 emerged from that.
 
You aint' sendin' nowt, then :)
 
Don
9:33 PM
Woo it works now @BartekBanachewicz !!
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, I was aware of that. Same happened with Java.
 
Okay enough for today
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Or you need to asses the completeness of the road map
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess I should have figured you were.
 
9:34 PM
Derp has killed Deputy Beagle and therefore doomed the town to lifetime of unhappiness or something
Moral is: don't let Derp play with dynamite
 
ugh build systems
I don't to build anything anymore
 
Quality was acceptable right?
(Of the stream not gameplay)
 
@sehe No, to be honest, I think I can say I have 80% of the functionality I want there. But you know how the last 20% take 80% of the time.
@CatPlusPlus Yes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. At least, often it does
 
Hm, turns out MSVC does not support Unicode string literals.
 
9:36 PM
Maybe I'll force myself to use mic next time to deliver my ~quality lines~
 
@EtiennedeMartel I thought they did support it, just not have distinct code unit types.
 
Hello, World!
 
innit bruv
 
Does that mean that all the C++11 Unicode support they have in MSVC are the bits that you could emulate (i.e. none of the core language bits)?
That sucks.
 
user142019
Redmine y u no detect version control system of repository yourself.
 
9:39 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nothing wrong with patenting things. If only to prevent patent trolls from doing the same. As long as it comes with a "anyone is free to use this" license (what's that called again. I think Solaris uses is it for some stuff, but I don't remember)
 
Do they at least have that in the CTP?
Not having that is a definite no-no for me supporting MSVC.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Have what?
 
@CatPlusPlus Hell. You couldn't afford the brandy
 
and Unicode literals is the only part of porting ogonek to MSVC that's remotely difficult, and no, they don't have them in the CTP.
I think.
 
You know what, I'm going to buy Dxtory because it's overall neat piece of software
 
9:40 PM
@sehe They offer a royalty-free license to any implementer requesting one, IIUC. However the only contacts they provide for that are snail mail and fax, so I won't bother any time soon.
@DeadMG Unicode literals.
 
30€ isn't that much
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can I request one for you? Or would that require personal legal documents?
 
@sehe WTFPL? :P
fuck
there's just not enough time in the day.
I need to work on Wide in ten different ways at once, and I also need to work on my proposals and my tutorials.
 
@sehe WTFPL rocks!
 
@DeadMG Surely not. Patents are serious business :(
@CatPlusPlus Well. Their site isn't ... very well translated ... though
> If CoreAudio is effective environment (Windows Vista/Windows 7), since game sound can also be recorded from an output, only by 1 audio device, two lines are recordable. (* There is also a thing which cannot record sound depending on application.)
 
Don
9:45 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Using telnet I can send endless messages, I tried to use a loop to constantly send messages to the server but it doesn't work? o-o' any other magic you got there? x3
 
@sehe Yeah, but it's legit
 
user142019
Gantt charts are cool.
 
I should use laptop for chatting
 
Lol "Indispensable Runtime" (instead of "Runtime Requirements", I suppose)
 
So there's no sound breaks in the stream
When I AltTab out
 
9:47 PM
@Zoidberg They are
@CatPlusPlus You mean, because you chat so much? (Oh. You mean, "typed" chat)
 
@sehe Dunno. They have a letter in the Technical Note: unicode.org/notes/tn6/#Intellectual_Property
 
@DeadMG foul language
 
@sehe All your runtime are belong to indispensable.
 
user142019
Redmine is great.
 
9:50 PM
@JerryCoffin Someone set us up the bomb!
@R.MartinhoFernandes Looks legit legal, alright - lol:
> Copyright © 2002-2006 Markus W. Scherer, Mark Davis. All Rights Reserved. The Unicode Consortium and the authors make no expressed or implied warranty of any kind, and assume no liability for errors or omissions. No liability is assumed for incidental and consequential damages in connection with or arising out of the use of the information or programs contained or accompanying this technical note. The Unicode Terms of Use apply.
 
user142019
@sehe s/one/body/
 
> Unicode and the Unicode logo are trademarks of Unicode, Inc., and are registered in some jurisdictions.
 
Ell
@Zoidberg Not when you have to draw them by hand >.<
 
user142019
@Ell why the fuck would you ever draw a chart by hand except for in comics.
 
Ell
@Zoidberg for my maths exam :P
for critical path analysis
 
user142019
9:52 PM
I never had to use Gantt charts in school.
 
@Zoidberg Google isn't decided on it
 
@sehe It's body, I'm pretty sure.
 
user142019
@sehe that doesn't look like a Gantt chart to me. :L
 
Ell
It looks like one
 
user142019
Or well, a little.
 
user142019
9:53 PM
 
@DeadMG I like the intention, but it seems redundant with modules.
 
@Zoidberg The second. Well, technically, you're right. But that's only because people had the gore to login simultaneously :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes We won't have modules for years, and even when we do, there will be pre-modules code to maintain which could benefit.
 
It does not bring effortless benefit to legacy code.
 
true
 
9:54 PM
@Zoidberg Ugly! And way too complicated. The dependencies don't need to be visualized, as long as the graph ordering algorithm takes them into account. Then in "free" graph positioning, the dependency arrows could be added back in
 
but it would be less effort than re-writing the whole thing in modules.
not to mention the potential of having to support pre-modules compilers.
 
@DeadMG You mean, slapping the code in a module and dropping public:/private: at the appropriate place?
 
user142019
@sehe it's not mine. :P
 
@Zoidberg Wokay. Fatwa revoked.
 
@DeadMG But assuming we get modules in C++14, pre-modules compilers won't have your feature.
 
user142019
9:56 PM
Mine shows start and end of tasks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes We won't.
they're due for C++17 at the earliest.
last I checked anyway
 
I thought it was modules 14, concepts 17. But haven't tracked that much lately.
 
@JerryCoffin Mmm. Will click on random internet link :)
 
hmmm
perhaps it is modules 14 and concepts 17.
but I coulda sworn that for C++14 they were mostly looking at defects, small language upgrades, and library features.
 
9:57 PM
I thought 14 was all about fixes and library features.
Like why the fuck std::type_index exists.
 
@sehe Edward Tufte is hardly random -- if you haven't read at least one of his books, you should. For example: amazon.com/Visual-Display-Quantitative-Information/dp/…
 
Xeo
@ThePhD What's your problem with std::type_index?
@R.MartinhoFernandes As if :/
 

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