« first day (1123 days earlier)      last day (3834 days later) » 

6:00 PM
@GamesBrainiac Yes
 
I don't have the other kind of polymorphic type either.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Basically, concepts + concept_maps
 
It's a bit different syntax I think
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Optional?
 
6:00 PM
Scala has weird syntax in general
 
@Xeo Nope.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes why did the nipple come in there?
 
Any template parameter type?
 
it's just a function that returns a type.
there's nothing special about the result type compared to any other type.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG It's also a function that takes a type
 
@JerryCoffin I see. So, its more like a potentially useful tool that has not been used properly?
 
well, it's not really semantics, because for example, the idea of Optional(T) doesn't really make much sense.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yuck.
 
@GamesBrainiac I use "NIPPLE SALADS" dropped into random parts of conversation as a way to express the feeling of going insane.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes how about IM GOING FRIGGIN INSANEEEEE!!!!
more readable
 
Xeo
6:03 PM
@GamesBrainiac "NIPPLE SALADS" expresses that way better
(Also, go play Borderlands 2)
 
in fact, I guess I should have considered operators before now.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG FWIW, type-class overloading isn't specific to operators
 
@Xeo I think FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK is far more expressive, and like what an insane person would say.
its just one word
 
@GamesBrainiac Because NIPPLE SALADS is totally what a sane person would say.
 
Xeo
6:05 PM
@GamesBrainiac Nope, hearing that from apparently sane persons every day
 
@Xeo you think they're sane.
@CatPlusPlus What in particular is weird?
 
@Xeo Yeah, but I'm happy with all of my non-operator solutions.
 
@CatPlusPlus I mean for lazy evaluation, you just add lazy keyword in
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Meh ADL :P
 
@GamesBrainiac Just feels weird
 
6:06 PM
@GamesBrainiac Mostly it's a poorly defined phrase. Really strong typing can get obnoxious in a hurry, and really weak typing scales poorly. Therefore, nearly all use of the phrases "strong typing" or "weak typing" means somebody has chosen some arbitrary point, and classed everything weaker than that as "weak" and everything stronger than that as "strong".
 
lol
 
Meh, strong typing is perfectly workable
 
well I could simply change operators so that you can define member operators to take this on the right-hand-side.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG and that... changes what?
 
well, the core issue that I'm considering is that if you have something like, I dunno, f(x) { return type { var := x; }; }, then you can't define ADL-findable operators for this type, only members.
 
6:10 PM
@Griwes Why not? class Triangle extends Point, Point, Point
 
lol
 
@JerryCoffin Thanks. That makes sense now.
 
so if I wanted to be able to support the ability for people to have null == f(int)(), then I'mma have a problem.
 
you have null?
 
@GamesBrainiac More than that, more or less type checks at compile time do not exempt you from having to think about your code or how you structure your application.
@JerryCoffin Most of the problems people have with PHP are a problem with the SAPI and not PHP itself. Just saying.
 
6:14 PM
and I personally am not a big fan of ADL either.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes You mean IPoint? And if not, Java doesn't have MI!
 
Even if I used implements, you cannot have the same type more than once there. Invalid syntax is invalid syntax.
 
@CatPlusPlus Making it workable nearly requires allowing some sort of polymorphism, or some implicit conversions, etc. With no implicit conversions, promotions, polymorphism, etc. of any kind anywhere, it becomes like trying to live in a military bunker where you can't get from your bed to a bathroom without showing your ID, giving the correct password, having your fingerprints taken and passing the retinal scan.
4
 
you know, I guess that logically, Haskell must have something similar to ADL anyway.
 
@JerryCoffin I don't count polymorphism as weak typing
There are no coercions needed for polymorphism
 
6:16 PM
/me thinks of a triangle as just a set of 3 points, and thinks of a point as just a tuple of coordinates in some space
 
@JerryCoffin I read that last bit of that as 'rectal scan':)
 
@DeadMG Not really. You don't need it.
 
what, you always spell out an import for every operator you use?
 
If a (+) with suitable arguments is in scope, it gets picked.
 
@CatPlusPlus Then you're simply wrong. Polymorphism is nothing more than a framework for defining what implicit conversions you allow, and what you don't. For truly strong typing, however, no implicit conversions are allowed at all.
 
6:18 PM
@DeadMG Yes (or use a more general import statement)
 
hmm.
I feel worse about that than about the limited ADL I implemented in Wide.
 
You can import all operators of a single class with ClassName(..), for example.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, I don't agree with that :v
 
and if you don't know the class name, in generic code?
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Since there is no overloading except within type-classes, that's not an issue.
 
6:19 PM
@MartinJames The intent in this case was to portray anguish that was purely mental, not physical.
 
@DeadMG No such thing. There's no overloading of names.
(If there is, that is a conflict, and you want qualified or hiding imports anyway)
 
@CatPlusPlus Like I said: in that case you're just wrong.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Your generic code should know what it wants - and require the appropriate type-class.
 
Well, that's your opinion
 
well, logically if you have f(x) { return x + x; } then you don't know what class x is beforehand, so how would you know what typeclass to import?
 
6:20 PM
@DeadMG (+) is always (+). If you define another (+) in another class, you can't have both in scope.
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Uh, are you talking about a different kind of polymorphism?
 
@DeadMG It's not the class of x. It's the class of (+).
(+) is in Num. So you import Num(..) and it's on.
 
@Xeo Subtyping, maybe
I don't see any implicit conversions in parametric polymorphism
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What does Num's + have to do with my custom UDT's +?
 
@DeadMG Data and functions are separate
 
6:22 PM
@Xeo Different from what?
 
@DeadMG There is no your custom UDT's +. If you want a + for your UDT, you make an instance of Num for it.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Nothing, your UDTs don't have (+) unless they're an instance of Num
@JerryCoffin Are you talking about OOP polymorphism or parametric polymorphism?
 
@DeadMG The type of f would be deduced as Num a => a -> a . C++2z equivalent would be, I guess, template <typename T> requires Num<T> T f(T)
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes concept_maps ;_;
 
@Xeo I'm talking about polymorphism at an abstract enough level that it includes both (and perhaps a bit more).
 
6:25 PM
ok
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin I don't see how parametric polymorphism admits to any implicit conversions
 
so you have to have one type class for every single operator, so that people can instance themselves of it?
and what about binary operators where the left and right hand sides could be of different types?
 
Xeo
@DeadMG uh what
 
@Xeo Well, you just said that I can't ever use + unless I'm an instance of Num.
 
Xeo
(also, don't be specific to operators - functions are also overloaded in the same way)
 
6:26 PM
so logically, I need a Num-alike for -, *, /, etc.
 
@Xeo Then you're not thinking about it abstractly enough.
 
They're all in Num in current Haskell
 
oh, great.
so I can't have + without -?
 
Comfortably Num.
 
It's a type class for numbers
 
Xeo
6:27 PM
@DeadMG Well, the name is Num
Do you want + for concatenation of something?
That's what Monoid is for (called mappend in there).
 
It's not great, and type class hierarchy based on algebraic structures is better, but still
 
does it even matter?
 
Also, operators, functions, no difference
 
@DeadMG You group them as makes sense. (That said, I think the standard hierarchy is fucked up, but that's a different matter)
@DeadMG Example of UDT with custom + ideone.com/7ovzB1
 
It matters, because type class instances are expected to follow laws associated with the class
 
6:29 PM
(Yes, you need to define all the rest; Num sucks)
 
well, I'd be decidedly less uncomfortable with that idea if you didn't just tell me that I can't ever use anything else, ever.
 
@DeadMG What do you mean "anything else"?
 
Xeo
@user1040131 Wrong room
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, you just told me that if I want to use that generic function, it has to be Num.
so if Num is fucked up, how am I not fucked up permanently?
 
@user1040131 Urgh, VB.
 
"suckage" ^
suckage.haskell.org/more-suckage .
4
 
But 4&4 = 4
 
Wrong room.
 
Try jumping
 
@DeadMG You can. The name is not taken forever. Just make an import that hides the existing + name and make a class with different semantics. Example (of reusing the name, not of making a new class) ideone.com/dYIE3L
 
6:34 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes do you know if there is a way to get jekyll to let you have content broken down into posts that you want to include, without having to have each section generate it's own unique URL for the post?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So basically, I'd have to decide beforehand whether I want a numerical + or some other kind of +.
 
Oh god I have to think
 
Right. As I said, no overloading of names.
 
@CatPlusPlus More concerned about loss of genericity.
 
There is none.
Your code is as generic as you make your typeclasses.
 
6:37 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah, never mind, I can just hack it by having the 'permalink' field set to some fixed url
 
It's more rigid framework for genericity, there's no ad hoc stuff
 
There is a class for "pluses" without the numerical semantics.
Btw, Num can be broken up into more fine-grained classes without severe breakage, no?
 
Probably
 
In the style of AMP.
 
hmm
not sure how, or if, I could make that work with C++, even if I thought it was a good idea, and I'm not feeling strongly either way right now.
 
6:41 PM
@Xeo Sorry, that probably sounded pat and condescending, which I didn't really intend, so let me elaborate a bit. There is parametric polymorpism that doesn't involve implicit conversion, but most interesting forms do. Since C++ includes both, I'll use it as an example. A C++ class template is parametric polymorphism that doesn't support implicit conversion. We have to explicitly instantiate the template to convert from template to (what C++ considers) an actual type.
 
@DeadMG Oh, not saying you could. Just trying to explain to you how it works without special lookup rules.
 
COM can be bothersome, sometimes.
 
hmm
 
C++ function templates support implicit conversion though: given some function template, we can convert from the template type to some specific function type without explicitly specifying the type over which we're instantiating the function template.
 
I think that, if I make function constraints simple and easy, then I will be happy enough with my existing ADL-based solution.
it's not necessarily what I'd design in an ideal world, but it's also not necessarily completely broken.
 
6:43 PM
Basically you explicitly say which semantics your type implements, and this can be done in a post-hoc manner (i.e. if you make a new typeclass, you can provide implementations for already existing types that didn't know about it).
 
Hmm, I submitted an exception stack trace for R# C++ earlier, and I got an email telling me it was assigned to some guy.
 
And while this was about operators, it's actually for functions in general. The only special thing about operators is that they have magical syntax.
 
well, I was thinking about an axioms kinda thing.
 
@CatPlusPlus Ah, missing superclasses would be it.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Axioms would be what Cat referred to as "laws" earlier.
 
6:51 PM
Oh look, Kyrostat is not dead
 
Nice try.
Btw, any progress on my parsers?
 
I'll work on them on weekend, if I don't get a shitload of work tasks again
And I still have to do some uni project crap
I just can't get myself to code
 
Say I have two Python objects and want to test equality of all their respective attributes except one. That doable without manually doing the testing and picking out the attribute I don't want?
 
Somebody told me to look at a "sight". Never seen that before.
 
Implement __eq__
 
Xeo
6:54 PM
@JerryCoffin Would you really call that a conversion, though?
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't want those semantics for ==
 
Or __cmp__? I don't remember
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh
Well, then name it differently, but you'll have to do it yourself either way
 
And I don't know the attributes except the one to exclude.
@CatPlusPlus Ah, ok.
 
That's not a problem
 
Yeah, I know.
 
6:55 PM
@Pawnguy7 Is that a pun?
 
set(dir(self)) - what_to_skip
 
Woah, what?
 
@TonyTheLion They were referring to a website.
 
So... not sure.
 
6:56 PM
lol
 
Oh, wait, I see it now.
I suppose it is. Accidental.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Oh, nice
 
I haven't done enough python to understand the significance of this >.>;
 
@Xeo It's taking some existing value and creating an object of some different type based on that value. For one example, that's essentially identical to the wording I'd use to describe a cast in C or C++, which makes it sound a lot like a conversion to me.
 
Xeo
Hm
 
6:59 PM
 
@EtiennedeMartel I cant wait for this thing to be released... Especially since VAX has been giving me trouble lately. It keeps deactivating claiming my license isn't valid, I paste the license in again (over the same one) and it's happy for about a week.
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Am I seeing a raw new there?
 
@Xeo You are seeing that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes man, you are getting famous
 
Actually vars() is better for this
 
7:02 PM
I have seen this before, I think.
 
oh gawd, ponies
 
@Pawnguy7 Someone skinned @rightfold !!! :O
 
Kind of strange, I never get clothing adverts.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ideone.com/fotN8s
 
Yeah, I got it. Thanks.
 
7:05 PM
@Pawnguy7 Ask @rightfold.
 
@Pawnguy7 awww
 
Is there a way to search images?
 
drag and drop in google
 
fuck google
 
tineye
 
7:10 PM
Anyone bought Planetary Annihilation yet?
 
How long has reverse image search been possible?
 
@CatPlusPlus yeah, why
 
About 10 years
@melak47 Is it worth the price tag?
It's 20$ cheaper in Humble Store today
 
@CatPlusPlus Way outside the $$ I've been willing to spend on games in recent years. A shame, because I loved TA and really want to try PA. (Wasn't impressed with Supreme Commander though).
 
@CatPlusPlus idk, I haven't played in quite some time. don't know if it's good yet :v
 
7:13 PM
@melak47 VERY USEFUL THANKS
 
what's the price tag anyway
 
60$/55€
 
eh
 
40$ in HS today
 
TBH, the whole "Playing on 3D terrain" thing isn't actually very player-friendly
 
7:15 PM
Somebody should make a dodgeball game.
 
they said they'd come up with a way to make it work. so far I don't think they have. not to mention there's no way to keep track of crap on multiple planets/moons (last time I played)
 
@Pawnguy7 I've played some StarDodgeBall.
 
@Cat Can I easily make a shallow copy?
 
The mods on this game are really diverse...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes copy.copy
 
7:16 PM
@Pawnguy7 Done. (You had to know that was coming, right?)
 
It also has deepcopy
 
I'm pretty sure the only ones I've told you about are Mafia and StarDodgeBall.
 
@Pawnguy7 hitler was still painting
 
Well yes.
But I mean.
Those are two completely unrelated games.
@Jefffrey isn't dragging a fairly recent feature?
 
@Pawnguy7 There are many more mods.
 
Ell
7:18 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes your parsers? o.O
 
posted on November 12, 2013 by Herb Sutter

Recap: Back in June, Microsoft: announced that were were moving to a faster cadence and shipped VS 2013 one year after VS 2012; announced that new ISO C++ conformance features from the November 2012 CTP (and more) would be available in VS 2013, but not in VS 2012 Updates; and didn’t announce pricing for VS […]

 
I've been playing some Monopolize the Galaxy
 
@DeadMG hence diverse
 
@Pawnguy7 I'd say approximately 4 years
 
Oh. That is pretty neat. Cross window and such things.
Reminds me now.
Somebody went from Windows 7 to XP, and complained a file upload site wasn't working.
Apparently they used to drag everything.
 
7:19 PM
Nov 8 at 12:05, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I think I'll rewrite my UCD parsers in Python. Since I'll require Python for the build anyway, I can remove one dependency and not care about which compiler to use to build the C# files.
 
Ell
and cat is writing them?
 
@JerryCoffin No. Also, if I am not mistaken, a ball does not a game make. Then again, maybe it does...
 
@Ell Apparently not yet, hehe.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But it will be slower... huehuehuehuehue
 
Ell
So this will remove the c# dependency?
 
7:21 PM
That too.
Nov 8 at 13:22, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@GamesBrainiac It's basically all the properties in one place. However, if you split it into smaller groups, you can save a lot of memory and make the whole thing a lot faster because it ends up needing to process less things. (It is goddamn slow).
 
Ell
Looking at UCD.zip it looks like there are a random load of formats in here
 
You can pick the single file XML thing if you want. But you need to split things up in groups in memory so you can coalesce ranges that share attributes and then it doesn't end up as slow as before.
(If you want to do it, I'm sure the Cat won't mind, btw :P)
 
@Pawnguy7 Instant game -- just add players.
 
@Pawnguy7 Yes it does, ask @CatPlusPlus
 
@Ell There's 2 or 3
And using a SAX parser or just parsing those text ones line-by-line will end up being pretty much the same
 
Ell
7:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'll have a bash at it, but only for exercise. My programming skills shouldn't be relied upon :P
Especially since I don't know python xD
 
@Ell Only UnicodeData.txt has a legacy format. The rest is a rather quite uniform "semicolon separated values".
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus I must have picked the 3 different ones xD
I assumed there would be more, my bad
 
btw Robot, you want Python 2, right? :(
 
Python 2, unicode, what?
 
3. I'm ditching SCons for ninja + custom generator in Python 3, anyway.
 
7:31 PM
Oh, good
 
Don't want to be part of the problem.
 
wow, we are actually talking about code today?
what happened to eating babies?
 
Ell
@Code-Guru I can type with a mouthful, can't you?
 
I"m not that talented. I need both hands to eat
 
Wiiiish I had variadic templates.
 
7:33 PM
Python has Internet download capabilities with the standard bits, right?
 
isnt there a server package or something? (meaning: im pretty sure it does)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 1s and 0s? Are there any nonstandard bits?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, but requests is better
 
Don't want to require extra stuff for my bootstrap script.
Thinking of downloading the UCD from the Interwebs in it, since the URLs are guaranteed stable.
 
You can bundle the library
But yeah there's also urllib in standard library
 
7:37 PM
-2
Q: Stop hating on IE6. They had css3 opacity, gradients and text shadows long before css2 even existed

benPlease. Just stop. I mean, if IE6 was a bad browser, why would 5% of humanity still be using it 11 YEARS after release. IE filters were modern day css3 in 2001. A time when css3 didn't even exist. Think people. Think.

^^ hehe
 
Ell
hmm that's odd. my copy of ogonek dissapeared o.O
 
ogonoes ogone ;)
 
Xeo
gaaah, loading the C++ issues list takes so fucking long on open-std.org
 
TIL I have fans on Curve Fever
 
Ell
ogoing ogoing ogone
 
7:41 PM
@Mysticial Heh. His comment about 5% of users still using IE6 makes me wonder how many are still using Windows95.
 
@Jefffrey A what
 
Xeo
7:54 PM
 

« first day (1123 days earlier)      last day (3834 days later) »