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6:00 AM
We were not evil!
 
6:12 AM
Anyone know how to get Visual Studio (or just C++) Pro for free or real cheap? :P
 
@emartel The answer is obviously yes - along with the majority of popular software.
The issue is of course are you willing to do it.
 
well since I won't be going back to work before a few weeks now, and Express Edition is a load of crap, I'm really tempted
667 CDN dollars is a bit too much though
 
o.O That's it? I thought it was a few thousand dollars
 
well that's for the crappiest version without MSDN
 
Not that I support it. But pirating it is a way to get it for free. But saying that you can't get it for free would be a complete lie. You can get it for free, just not legitimately.
 
6:15 AM
Ultimate is 17K+
 
o.O Damn.... I get mine from MSDNAA
g.g. when I'm done school though...
 
DreamSpark offers ultimate?
I thought it was just Professional.
 
@Mysticial well you "can" get it for free through some people who have MSDN subscriptions paid by their work and they don't use their license :)
also, since I run windows 8, my user account is "linked" to my email, so I'm not an anonymous user and I'd rather buy the software than pirate it
I guess I could get a license for 2010, would probably be cheaper
 
Not that it matters though. If you get caught pirating, the software usually just deactivates.
You can't get into trouble unless you start distributing it or distributing cracks for it.
 
but its weird, it doesn't seem like MS is selling standalone "language IDEs" like before
 
6:19 AM
Express is free.. o.O
Where'd you get the fact it's 667 dollars from
 
@Mysticial I'd rather not take chances
Express is free
Pro isn't
Express is total crap
can't install any plugins, not even for source control
and it doesn't seem to want to play well with Qt
 
cpx
Hm. Can a void expression be (void*) or is it just void appearing in an expression?
 
wat
No, an expression with type void* is not a void expression.
 
cpx
@LucDanton For example: (void)(x = y) Where x and y are `ints.
 
what
 
6:23 AM
@cpx That's not what you just said.
 
@cpx void* isn't involved here.
 
cpx
Oh right.
 
0
Q: How many comparisons needed to sort an array Bubble Sort

soniccoolHow would i determine the best and worst case to sort an x number of comparisons in bubble sort?

NARQ?
 
he wants to sort 18 elements
I am looking to see for 18 elements — soniccool 12 mins ago
lol
 
I can do that by hand.
 
6:27 AM
Humm, anyone know what the "Open Charity" licensing is with MS? microsoft.com/canada/licensing/charity.mspx doesn't tell much... but 44$ seems too good to be true royaldiscount.com/Visual+Studio+2012+NP+PG/…
 
I assume there's a legal status for charities and the deal is intended for those organisations?
 
What exactly does Express lack. I remember I couldn't use it because it didn't have the 64-bit compiler.
 
Can't download plug-ins
 
And not having 64-bit is completely useless for the stuff I do.
 
I guess I'll have to start my own charity :)
 
6:29 AM
I think it'd be easier to just pirate it
or you know.. buying it for $667
 
@Rapptz I know it would be easier! As for $667, I haven't received a real paycheck in 51 weeks, the price is a bit steep :)
 
Are you collecting unemployment? Wait.. I thought you had a job.
 
They gave you fake paychecks?
 
I collect insurance because I can't go work with my treatments
 
wut?
 
6:32 AM
immune system went to shit :D
 
What do you have?
 
cancer
Hodgkin's Lymphoma
 
:|
 
it's ok :)
I'm through with the treatments
 
I work in the medical field so I'm used to it
 
6:33 AM
getting blood test results on monday so I can probably put it behind next week!
oh, what do you do?
 
I evaluate medical students on their clerkships some days. Other days I'm just a regular ol' biomedical scientist working at a hospital.
but at least your lymphoma has a very high survival rate. Don't recall what it is, I think very high 80% or low 90%.
 
Yeah, I'm reading about it right now. It doesn't look as scary as most of the other cancers.
The family barber that I've been going to all my life passed away 2 years ago to I think liver cancer.
 
Was close.. I think. 84.3%
 
yeah its very high :)
alright, gotta go sleep
 
And one of my Dad's classmates (and a processor at my school UIUC) was just forced into retirement and moved to the Bay Area to treat his final stage lung cancer.
 
6:37 AM
see you later guys :)
 
night man, feel better.
 
Never smoked in his life.
 
@Mysticial 2nd hand smoke?
 
@Rapptz Nope
 
or heavy titre
 
6:38 AM
And yet my grandfather having chained smoked for 40 years is 97 years right now and still energetic - but with moderate lung problems.
So much randomness...
 
There are a lot of causes for lung cancer though. Not to mention genetic polymorphism.
 
I take the train with this lady, she smokes so much it screwed up her voice and she almost sounds like a man
 
dysphonia?
I used to get laryngitis every year. That stopped randomly though
 
I guess so, her voice is really hoarse
 
it sucks not being able to talk for like 1-2 days.
 
6:44 AM
@emartel what do you mean by good students? The students are like students at any other school.
 
You're replying to the wrong message, and he's gone.
 
wow
 
dude..
 
6:53 AM
@Borgleader Awesome series.
 
I started reading it when I was 12
 
@Rapptz That scares the shit out of me...
 
[–]BillEKlubb 505 points 8 hours ago (614|117)
Crashed into pole while drunk driving. Girlfriend died on impact, I flew out the driver's side window. 19 yo. Lifetime guilt.
man..
 
> What is the const operator and how is it used?
There is a const operator?
 
he might have meant keyword
 
6:57 AM
Probably "const qualifier" in this case. It's from a list of interview questions, which if you're going to be asking you should use the correct terminology!
 
7:08 AM
I finally making some progress with my assignment. xD
 
0
Q: Measuring max space function allocates on heap and stack during it's entire lifetime

newprintI have a recursive function written in C++ that dynamically allocates 2D arrays using new. How could I measure the maximum amount space function allocates on heap and stack during it's entire lifetime ? Here is an example(it is not my code) of how to measure Stack. unsigned int maxStackLocation...

I'm pretty sure my comment is accurate
Just wondering if I misworded it
 
@Rapptz This guy moved from C++ to Java... remind me why I should listen to anything he says? :P
 
You shouldn't.
Article seems heavily biased while trying to say it isn't by saying "but I love C++" in the beginning.
Similar to saying a heavily racist remark and defending it by saying you have black friends.
 
@Rapptz That's the article that says "const operator" question
 
7:21 AM
@Rapptz Or saying "I'm not racist but that (insert racist insult)"
 
@Rapptz Pretty much any article that starts with "I like/love <x>" is going to be heavily biased one way or another. :-)
 
@Pubby Saw the list of questions and just like, skipped it.
lol
> My point of this post is not to bash C++ or bash people using C++ or teaching C++, but rather to blunt the message that seems to be being preached by an over eager C++ community.
Must have gone over my head because that isn't what the article is about at all
 
The premise of the article seems to be that C++ has "faded away" somehow. Then the article attempts to explain that C++11 is a failed attempt to bring it "back".
 
He's complaining that the language is too big.
 
@Rapptz Of course that begs the question as what the author means by "too big".
 
7:26 AM
Bigger is always better
 
Oh man SAO is getting complicated...
 
SAO?
 
^ ?
 
Sword Art Online
 
lol
You really enjoy light novels huh
 
7:29 AM
Awww man... I'm failing at some of Mr.C++IsntComingBack's questions
 
@Borgleader RIP
 
@Rapptz It's an animated adventure!
 
@Borgleader I didn't even read through Mr.C++IsntComingBack's trash.
 
I don't know what the fuck RTTI is
 
Run-time type information
I have a vague recollection of what it does
 
7:30 AM
Oh I see
 
The name is pretty self explanatory
 
dynamic_cast and typeid functionality.
 
yeah I get it now
 
Like the first question, is he talking about just char/double/int/... ?
 
7:32 AM
....
 
:)
 
too old
 
Where's that 11 min. Macross Nyan-Nyan song?
 
@Pubby what is
@Mysticial idk..
 
"What is contained in the <algorithms> header?" Oh fuck you, who learned all that by heart.
 
7:34 AM
Even better...
 
@Rapptz nothing. nothing at all.
 
Just for you. XD
 
A few days ago I learned about std::next_permutation and std::lexicographical_compare
 
C++ code is contained in <algorithms>
 
@Borgleader It contains implementations of some algorithms. Duh.
 
7:35 AM
@Insilico I mean I know a few but that's just from using them
 
@Borgleader I know, I was being an ass. :-)
 
An ass?
 
You can turn that around pretty easy. "What is contained in the java.lang package?"
@Borgleader Yeah. I was pointing out the fairly obvious in a snide manner. :-P
 
I was making a pun on ass :P
 
That was okay.
I've heard it before though
 
7:42 AM
I have an actual C++ question if you all have a moment to ridicule me for not knowing how to do something seemingly simple...
 
I want me a new Shrek movie
 
@WhozCraig Just ask
 
@WhozCraig We won't ridicule you for not knowing how to do something simple. However, we will ridicule you if you are being a persistent dumbass. :-)
 
Excellent. well. Something simple like a template-front-end for a merge-sort based on a generic iterator. The decl would be something like


template < typename Iterator >
void merge_sort(Iterator first, Iterator last)
 
And I get ridiculed for both. :)
 
7:47 AM
what's the question o.o
 
@Mysticial You have no excuse because you have 72k rep.
 
But the problem is, merge_sort requires temp-space, which the obvious storage for would be a std::vector<T>. When I redef the template to be this:

template<class T, class Iterator>
void merge_sort(Iterator first, Iterator last);

The *calls* are not able to deduce the T param. Is there anyway to deduce it from the Iterator type alone?
 
Err, what should it be deduced from? Or to put it another way, what the hell is T?
 
Just swap T and Iterator?
 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13667397/c-mixing-printf-and-cout
VTC
 
7:50 AM
@WhozCraig If the Iterator is designed well, it should have a value_type typedef available, using type traits.
 
Srsly? I can certainly try it. And thanks for the pointers guys. sry if it was a lame question.
 
@Insilico Like int*?
 
^ This
Iterator::value_type
 
Wow, you all suck so much. It's std:::iterator_traits<Iterator>::value_type.
 
7:51 AM
@WhozCraig So your function could look like this:
 
@LucDanton Oh look it's Mr.FancyPants. No seriously I'll look that up that sounds nice
 
template<class Iterator>
void merge_sort(Iterator first, Iterator last)
{
    typedef std:::iterator_traits<Iterator>::value_type TempType;
    TempType temp_space;
    //...
}
 
What's that T for anyway.
 
@LucDanton Copy-pasta. :-)
 
So given that, if I have a fixed array like int ar[10]; and use std::begin(ar) and std::end(ar) for my iterators, will the aforementioned code pull in the type correctly? It seems it might given what silico just pasted.
 
7:53 AM
@WhozCraig What is the correct type?
You still haven't answered that.
 
@WhozCraig If the correct type you're looking for is int, then yes.
Because the std::begin overload for arrays, which is template< class T, size_t N > T* begin(T (&array)[N]), returns a pointer, T*.
And iterator_traits has a specialization for pointers.
 
It is. (and sry if I didn't understand the question, Luc.) It is exactly what silico just specified that I think I'm looking for. Thank you so much folks. I truly appreciate it.
 
So even std:::iterator_traits<int*>::value_type gives you the int type.
 
In addition to what has been said C++11 provides a way to 'refactor' the verbose value type incantation: template<typename Iterator, typename ValueType = typename std::iterator_traits<Iterator>::value_type>.
It's convenient when you want to use that type in the signature also, but that's not the case here.
 
@LucDanton I thought template parameter defaults work in C++03 too? Or am I horribly mistaken?
 
7:58 AM
Class template only.
 
@LucDanton Isn't that what we have? ValueType is a type parameter, not a non-type one (I may be still be horribly misunderstanding you).
 
Erm.
What we have is a type parameter of a function template.
 
@LucDanton Oh, okay. That makes a lot more sense now.
 
I made a stupid example
 
Default template parameters can be any kind.
 
8:01 AM
@LucDanton I thought you was talking about template template parameters or something. -__-
 
@Borgleader typename in the wrong spot.
 
I don't use default template parameters enough to catch this particular usage, apparently.
 
@LucDanton Huh, you're right I don't even need it...
 
It's convenient to spell out e.g. template<typename It, typename Reference = typename std::iterator_traits<It>::reference> std::tuple<Reference> foo(It it) { return std::tuple<Reference> { *it }; }, rather than have the whole iterator trait incantation twice.
(Well actually here std::tie would work but you know.)
 
You guys rock. Its Alive! It may even be *correct*:

template < typename Iterator >
void merge_sort(Iterator first, Iterator last)
{
    typedef typename std::iterator_traits<Iterator>::value_type value_type;
    typedef typename std::iterator_traits<Iterator>::difference_type difference_type;

    difference_type n = std::distance(first, last);
    if (n <= 1)
        return;

    difference_type n1 = n/2;

    // invoke recursion on the submerges
    merge_sort(first, first + n1);  //sort array[0] through array[n1-1]
Thanks again, guys. it works =P I just hope it isn't too fuddled.
 
8:06 AM
@WhozCraig I presume you are already aware of the std::sort function?
 
LOL. of course. =P
 
isn't sort quicksort though?
I mean, maybe in his case merge sort is better :P
 
@Borgleader Not necessarily, I think. I don't think the standard specifies what algorithm it uses.
 
It specifies OlogN performance, or at least thats' what en.cppreference says
OlogN * N is usually quicksort performance, no? Yes?
 
The thing is that quicksort has a worst-case complexity of O(n^2), while merge sort has a worst-case complexity of O(n log n).
 
8:09 AM
@WhozCraig Now that you've figure out how to allocate your extra space, let me throw in my advice: don't use it. There are algorithms (known for close to 10 years now) for doing merging in-place. It was posed as a challenge, and a couple of teams figured out ways to do it. The first (that I know of) wasn't practical, but there's at least one that is.
 
@JerryCoffin its trivial when the nodes themselves can be relocated (i.e. a linked list), but in-place merge sort has finally be solved in place as well ?
 
@ThePhD You are correct. That seems to be what the standard specifies. My bad
 
@Borgleader In most cases, it's actually an introsort -- basically a quick sort that keeps track of recursion depth, and if it starts to go too deep, switches to doing a heap sort instead. Guarantees O(N log N) worst case complexity, but retains nearly the speed of a normal Quicksort (whereas a heapsort or mergesort may easily be 2-3x slower).
@WhozCraig Yup.
 
@JerryCoffin I thought the default QSort did that? oh well been a while since my algorithm's class
 
@Borgleader No -- Quicksort (by itself) guarantees a maximum stack use at any time of O(log N), but worst-case time complexity is O(N * N).
 
8:13 AM
@JerryCoffin Thank you ever-so much for the link. I just briefly checked the math and the algorithm and though not trivial, it is pretty impressive.
 
"Removing those that are in a list is easy enough, but how do I do the opposite?" Why, by reversing the (boolean) logic. In well written code you probably only need to add a ! somewhere... — jrok 11 mins ago
rofl
 
@JerryCoffin Does the C++ standard requires the sort to be stable, though?
 
I don't think introsorts are stable
 
@Insilico I don't think so.
 
@Insilico No -- there's std:stable_sort for that (and if memory serves, std::list::sort is also required to be stable).
 
8:16 AM
To avoid this being closed, you might want to start by explaining what you mean by HWID and what sort of checking you're talking about. — Jerry Coffin 1 hour ago
 
Is there any efficient algorithm for sorting a linked-list without extra memory?
 
My google search seemed to indicate it was Hardware ID. But in it's current form the question should have been closed.
 
Bubble-sort seems to be the only that comes to mind that even works.
 
You don't know what HWID is? That's actually surprising
 
@JerryCoffin I recall there being an unstable_sort in some ancient standard template library implementation, hence the question.
 
8:17 AM
@Mysticial I doubt you can do any sort without at least a little extra memory. You can do a merge sort on a linked list with constant extra memory.
 
By little, I mean O(1).
But yeah
I can see how a merge sort can possibly work.
 
@Rapptz Hardware ID seems plausible, but I'm not at all sure it's what he meant. Even if it is what he meant, it doesn't really clarify the question in general.
 
Well the question itself is shitty
 
^ Zisse
 
But I'm surprised both comments mention HWID
Mostly because one of the first things I learned to do was locking software to HWID
:|
via some.. whack ass tutorial I probably can't find anymore
 
8:21 AM
@Mysticial You want to do a bottom-up merge sort (avoids the O(log N) stack space for recursion). As you're merging, you just need extra space for a pointer to the head of the merged list.
 
@JerryCoffin Which has me thinking, there's a number of recursions in my pi-program that could be reduced to O(1) stack instead of O(log(n)). But I have no interest in changing it.
 
@Insilico I'll take your word for it -- I don't remember it, but my memory is notoriously unreliable.
 
Recursions are more natural.
 
welp, time for bed
cya
 
An FFT can be done in O(1) stack.
@Borgleader night
 
8:25 AM
@Mysticial FFT - Fast Fourier Transform?
 
@ThePhD Yeah
 
@Mysticial Even for numbers as big as your working with, the difference between constant and logarithmic is too small to care much about. I mean, you're at what -- 10^12 or 10^13 digits, or something like that? So logarithmic means (maybe) 13 times as much stack space as constant.
 
@JerryCoffin Right now, the stack-space usage is O(log(n)) with a fairly large constant.
But yes, it's pointless to try to optimize the complexity.
There's a few annoying cases, where I'm forced to put a 50k struct on the stack...
Since memory is very tightly managed.
There's a set of functions that are not allowed to use any heap space at all.
 
Heap is the enemy.
 
@Mysticial Yeah -- I once did a graph of time for quicksort for various sizes of arrays. Up to the limits of memory I had handy (8 Gig), it was still hard to distinguish its O(N log N) from a straight line.
 
8:29 AM
@JerryCoffin The log(n) is definitely noticeable - if not exaggerated by cache effects.
 
@Mysticial Eww, that is pretty big (though in the context of the memory you're using overall, hardly noticeable unless you store a lot of them.
 
@Mysticial Have you ever experienced false-sharing effects?
 
@Insilico Not in y-cruncher, but in the BBP program yes.
 
@Mysticial That's where quicksort helps: it's semi-automatically cache oblivious (well, sort of, anyway).
 
@JerryCoffin Cache-oblivious can still suffer from cache.
 
8:30 AM
@Mysticial How do you diagnose false-sharing problems, personally?
 
@Insilico In my BBP program (the one I wrote to help verify pi), I noticed the non-perfect scaling on an otherwise embarrassingly parallel algorithm.
 
cpx
sleep(10800);
 
And then I took a second look at the code, and it hit me instantly, that my thread-local buffers were too close together.
So I spaced them out - 30% speedup.
And perfect scaling.
 
Wait, buffers can be too close together?
 
for correctness no.
 
8:33 AM
@ThePhD Yeah, in certain cases en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_sharing
 
For performance, yeah...
 
Ah.
 
In y-cruncher, there is no padding between buffers.
But the buffers are sooooo large anyways.
 
That wikipedia tag at the top seems to be getting increasingly more bold and increasingly more angry.
 
That the chances of two threads hitting each other at the boundaries is basically zero.
 
8:34 AM
@ThePhD The "donate to wikipedia" header?
 
@Insilico Yerp.
I wonder if it goes away if you donate.
Or does it still indiscriminately harass you with its dark yellow behind black-and-blue text?
 
@ThePhD Why don't you make a donation and come back to us with the results? :-)
 
@Insilico Sure! Let me find my credit card with money on it...
 
@ThePhD I'm only being semi-serious. Whether you donate or not is totally up to you of course.
 
@Insilico (Thankfully?) It's not really up to me: open wallets and watches the butterflies float out of it.
 
8:38 AM
@Insilico The vast majority of the thread-scaling problems in y-cruncher itself is all memory bandwidth.
It's so bad that it's not even funny.
 
Thread-scaling as in, using multiple threads?
 
yeah
 
Exchanging data between them must be painful, working with such giant buffers.
 
On the Core 2 Quads, getting more than 3x scaling off of any of the higher-level algorithms is pretty damn good.
Since computing Pi is notoriously memory intensive.
The 1st gen Core i7s had enough memory bandwidth to go more than 4x speedup on 4 cores with HT.
 
I feel like I've eaten celery,
but I haven't.
 
8:41 AM
On the 2nd gen Core i7s, AVX made the computation even faster - thereby shifting a lot of the bottleneck back to memory.
 
@Mysticial Would you think, in your opinion, that developing some crazy custom hardware solution (e.g. FPGAs + solid state memory) would allow for greater speeds?
 
@Insilico It would need insane CPU <-> memory bandwidth.
I/O bandwidth doesn't need to be too crazy.
 
@Mysticial Hence, the "crazy" part of "crazy custom hardware solution" :-)
 
And I'd need a pretty sick vector floating-point unit to make that high-end multiplication algorithm fast.
@Insilico yeah
I'd like to see 100GB/s CPU <-> memory bandwidth
I/O doesn't need to be too fast, I'd say 10GB/s is more than enough.
My best machine barely gets 1GB/s I/O.
Which is still insane compared to a consumer desktop.
 
Yeah, I don't know what these super high magic numbers could even feel like.
I think I'd be in some kind fo tech heaven if I could have that kind fo stuff on my devtop.
 
8:45 AM
And internal mechanical hard drive gets about 100 MB/s.
 
PCIe v3.0 apparently can get 16 GB/s in a 16 lane slot.
 
I have 8 of them in my best machine - each are slightly better than 100 MB/s.
 
@Insilico I doubt that FPGAs would be much help. You could build enough memory controllers to improve bandwidth. The problem is just the opposite: getting high enough clock speed to compete.
 
The good thing is that I don't need low latency.
just pure bandwidth.
I managed to work my way around HD latencies.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm not familiar with the state of the art of FPGAs, nor have programmed FPGAs, so my opinion on that is useless.
 
8:48 AM
FPGAs won't clock very high.
You really need to go down to ASICs or full-custom.
 
ASIC?
 
@ThePhD Application-specific integrated circuit.
 
Ah.
 
They have C compilers that compile down to ASIC.
It's scary.
 
Full-custom would be unbelieveably expensive to make it work. Unless you want that level of crazy.
 
8:50 AM
@Mysticial Since you don't care about latency, you could probably use a really wide bus from a (theoretical) CPU, and build something like a northbridge out of an FPGA, with it controlling quite a few memory channels.
 
If the Pi algorithm is embarassingly parallel as you say, then one could try simply getting a whole boat load of FPGAs working together.
 
@Insilico All the embarrassingly parallel Pi algorithms are quadratic (or worse) run-time.
 
Or up on another level of crazy: make a custom motherboard with amazing memory bandwidth and put in your desired processors.
 
@Insilico That's putting it mildly -- typical up-front cost for an ASIC design is on the order of hundreds of millions of dollars.
 
@JerryCoffin Sounds.... really painful to the wallet.
What kind of customers do they get?
 
8:52 AM
@Insilico The problem is that with current CPUs, the memory controllers are built into the processor, so you can't increase bandwidth beyond their intended design.
 
@ThePhD People who intend to sell lots of said ASICs.
 
@ThePhD ASICs? Cell phones are an obvious one.
 
The only reason why Pi worked well is because the primary bottleneck is I/O. Which can in fact be fixed by simply spamming as many HDs as possible.
 
@JerryCoffin Ah. So they make only 1 design of it, and then it's up to the person they give that design to to manufacture it?
 
The economics of electronics is quite interesting. Non recurring engineering costs (NREs) for electronics are unbelieveably huge compared to their per-unit cost.
 
8:53 AM
But after eliminating that bottleneck, you have the memory bandwidth bottleneck, which doesn't overclock very well.
 
I was thinking when you said ASIC design that they were going to manufacture it too, not just design it.
 
@ThePhD The way it typically works is that some people come up with the design and give it to a semiconductor fab lab to make it.
The fab lab itself costs on the order of billions of dollars. Which is why you don't find a lot of semiconductor design companies owning their own fab labs.
 
Most ASICs aren't really fully custom any more though -- they're "standard cell" ASICs, which reduce cost quite a bit. For example, a cell phone will normally start with pre-designed ARM cores/memory controllers, one of a half dozen or so GPUs, etc.
 
For example, the company that designs ARM makes no ARM processors of their own.
And I think the same goes for AMD, as well.
 
Yeah, AMD can't afford its own fabs.
 
8:56 AM
But intel can?
 
Yeah
 
@ThePhD Yeah. They own like 80% of the CPU market.
 
@Insilico Years ago, AMD's president (rather famously) said "real men own their own fabs" -- but they don't any more.
 
AMD is such a mess right now.
 
@Insilico Right -- ARM started out as a fabless design house.
 
8:57 AM
Puts AMD at a serious gimp versus Intel.
 
Leaves Intel with no competition.
 
On the other end of the spectrum, you have TSMC, which does nothing but manufacture silicon for other companies.
 
@Mysticial Or just that, yeah.
 
@ThePhD Actually, I doubt it. AMD had pretty serious problems even before they sold off their fabs.
 
Why'd they sell of their fabs, though? Are they just not designing good stuff?
 
8:59 AM
@ThePhD Not only fabs are expensive as hell to build, they are also expensive as hell to run.
 
Intel didn't start to kill off AMD until Core 2.
AMD was doing pretty damn well up until that point.
 
Hm.
 
K8 was good.
 
Is AMD under threat of going under?
 
K10 wasn't much better.
 

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