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2:00 AM
 
error| default argument contains unexpanded parameter pack 'T'
||         , typename V = LazyConditional<Or<is_related<variant_base, U>, is_related<variant<T...>, U>>, void, identity<T>>
@sehe ^ Clang in action. Notice how T is, well, expanded.
 
@ThePhD Well yes, but the thing is, for the other engines I've worked with the structure of it made it obvious where the game specific logic could be plugged in. Here I have no clue. At this point I can't decide if it should be a seperate system or part of the main game loop or something totally separate or wtv. It also could be that it's obvious and I'm just plain stupid.
 
Neat! It compiles my optional, modulo one missing typename.
Aaaaaand no SFINAE for EnableIf. Sad.
 
@Pawnguy7 Just keep practicing it will come with time
 
user1357851
I''m experimenting cooking again - sweet potato in coconut soup!
 
user1357851
2:04 AM
I have been eating too much meat lately
 
My god do I want those blazingly fast compile times.
 
@Rapptz Oh is that the 2nd suspect ?
 
Yep.
 
@ShafikYaghmour That is what scares me. I have spent hours each day, and I fear I am not getting better.
 
It takes years to become decent and even longer to be awesome
Unless you're a fucking genius
 
2:07 AM
meh, refuting.
Also you could try Project Euler
 
That's more math than programming imho
 
Hone up those math skills.
 
@Borgleader A system. It should be a system, or an explicit function that is overridable in an interface or something..
 
@Borgleader How many have you done?
 
@ThePhD The problem with making it a system is that it will probably end up communicating with all other systems and the point of the design was to decouple all of them.
@Rapptz Not many, but that is the impression I got and I've read quite a few comments going in that direction
 
2:09 AM
It is math based, yes. But if you try to do this shit by hand it'll be hard for a lot of the ones past 100.
 
Eh, it's not even a failure on EnableIf. Still an SFINAE-related failure. Or maybe deduction.
 
If you try to program it without thinking, i.e. brute force, then you'll be waiting a long time for answers.
 
That is probably part of my problem. I don't know why I cannot seem to... grow out of it, though.
 
@Pawnguy7 If you love what you are doing give it a few years and you will see the difference
 
@Borgleader And? What's wrong with it communicating with everything?
 
2:11 AM
I do, I do. I just... seem to do it badly. Like, design. It is hard to love it when you cannot stand the sight of your own designs.
 
Also, I haven't made a good dispatcher for my engine. =[ I should try it for my engine.
 
@Pawnguy7 Oy man. Screw designs.
 
Stop being bad at designing
 
Well, I have made pong completely void of OO, and it was worse.
 
Synchronization overhead? And it ruins the point of the design. If I make it not a system I can make it so that the game logic runs once everything is synchronized, at which point there is no need for synch overhead.
 
2:13 AM
You don't have to run every part of the program in its own thread
 
@Pawnguy7 OOP is a way to organize, it isn't the holy solution for every programming problem.
 
OOP is often a holy problem for many programming solutions
:v:
Fuck patterns
 
Is that drunk you talking or your usual grumpy McCat ?
 
Also buttcoin status: still hilariously inept
@Borgleader Yes
 
No, but... well, I look at SFML... it is incredibly easy to use, and useful. I am not sayign everything should be OO - it shouldn't - but knowing how to design things, and this is not necessarily OO, is very important, I would argue. For example, you still need things to interact with each other in functional programming.
 
2:15 AM
@Pawnguy7 You're thinking too hard.
SFML is a lower-level framework, abstracting things.
it needs to be organized.
 
Functional designs are based around data flow
 
@CatPlusPlus is "buttcoin" your way of saying "bitcoin"?
 
@CatPlusPlus prolog, is that you?
 
Your code does not need to be perfectly decoupled objects that work well.
 
@Rapptz Not mine
It's an old mock thing buttcoin.org
 
2:16 AM
@ThePhD I have been told that many times. Perhaps this can be used to identify the problem.
 
Also CosbyCoins but that's more SA-specific thing
Loose coupling is a good direction BUT
It often massively complicates the flow
 
I don't get why people ridicule bitcoins.
I just ridicule people who think it's a get rich quick scheme.
 
it is having a great run
 
Seems the average price is $120 USD for 1 BTC as of today.
 
I find it ridiculously unsafe... I've read a few stories about people stealing bitcoins from a lot of other people leading to the bitcoin value dropping a ton
 
2:18 AM
yeah it was just at 90 like a few months ago
 
It's a bubble
It's always a bubble
 
@Borgleader It happened once.
@CatPlusPlus The bubble already popped a while ago.
How behind are you?
 
there can be more than one bubble
 
it's not going to inflate indefinitely
 
@Borgleader Oh yeah sure. But it's steadily decreasing, what kind of bubble is that?
The magic deflating bubble?
 
2:20 AM
someone can just come up with something new when it hits a wall
i think it could blow up if you could get support for it at POS
 
@DaggNabbit You mean as if it hadn't been done before?
 
I just started reading the new thread and I don't really care
 
@Rapptz, nice, haven't seen this one yet
it's a good concept
deregulated market
 
> It differs from its parent Bitcoin in that can be efficiently mined with consumer-grade hardware.
 
yeah hmm
 
2:21 AM
It's just idiots after idiots
 
will look into that
not really
 
Mining is retarded.
 
on consumer grade hardware yeah
even with a cluster
but.. you can use it for other stuff
 
Buying into buttcoins is retarded
Unless you want to buy drugs I guess
Or launder money
 
lol you probably just missed it
you can cash it back out
 
2:23 AM
Ahaha I'm not ever doing this
 
Or for someone who dislikes the way the current forex is handled?
 
yeah, or for a small country who's banks have just failed
 
rofl
 
?_?
 
user1357851
2:25 AM
Human society is a huge ponzi scheme, lol
 
user1357851
welcome to real life consisting of tons of idiots
 
Buttcoins are a bigger one
 
Congratulations on misusing ponzi scheme.
 
user1357851
I am talking about share market & property market
 
user1357851
and whole startup industry
 
2:26 AM
Anyway the main issue with bitcoin is that its backing is artificial. Fiat currency has this issue too except that it is backed by something with a heavy substance like their own government.
 
@Telkitty Wait what
 
user1357851
anything to do with capitalist society really
 
@Rapptz I dunno, I've seen the argument that they lend themselves to hoarding. The usual monies inflate.
 
user1357851
@CatPlusPlus say the house I am living in worth 222k in 1997, now it is worth 650k without any renovation (because of land value)
 
Bitcoins don't get generated fast enough to enable mass hoarding or actual consumerism.
 
2:27 AM
@LucDanton Yup
 
So there's that issue too I guess.
 
@Rapptz Is it possible to predict how long that will last? It's been trending down, hasn't it?
 
But you can totally dry strawberries using the heat from mining GPUs
 
user1357851
same with sharemarket - investment bankers have incentive to inflat the value of shares, as long as there are more people putting money into those shares, it will go up in value
 
(And also die from the same)
 
2:28 AM
@Rapptz Well as far a I understand bitcoin is limited to set number of issued coins so it closer to the gold standard
 
(Buttcoin community is pants on head retarded)
 
@ShafikYaghmour You can't just generate Fiat currency out of thin air either. Otherwise you'd have something like Zimbabwe.
 
user1357851
@CatPlusPlus same with startup industry - venture capitalist has an incentive to inflate the value of the startup so they get more out of their own investment. As long as there are more people into the startup, the value will go up
 
user1357851
ponzi
 
2:31 AM
@ShafikYaghmour It's repeating what I said I think, didn't read too far into it.
 
> t is hard to say for sure why Bitcoin crashed the way it did. One plausible hypothesis holds that the currency's rise was the result of a speculative bubble.
Ahahaha no shit
 
No idea about the urgency of the situation, but as long as someone is starting a crypto-currency from the ground up why not get it right from the get go. Obviously views regarding e.g. inflation differ widely, but that kind of uncertainty fuel skepticism rather than enthusiasm on my part.
 
Also since bitcoins are actually starting to be accepted throughout the web I doubt the price will fall to $2 or so.
 
Right, except the "coins" themselves have a perceived value
So it's like a legit pyramid scheme
 
If I recall, back in 2011 or prior there weren't many uses for bitcoins aside from the Silk Road.
 
2:32 AM
There still aren't
 
Well, websites are starting to accept it.
 
If you seriously thinking about using this then :lol:
 
it would be a whole different story if you had magnetic cards to carry and readers at the POS
 
it would add more legitimacy to it, so people don't think of it as being for drug trade or whatever
 
2:33 AM
@LucDanton Because it's a scam :v:
 
or a scam
 
I wouldn't call it a scam, as it shows no objective argument made.
 
if it has a perceived value to enough people, and they all agree on the value, it's legit
 
When you're creating an anonymous currency without government supervision then of course it'll be used for drug trade
 
@ThePhD how's your wheel rolling along? :3
 
2:34 AM
@CatPlusPlus I don't think FUD is a good way to go here.
 
@melak47 ?
 
@LucDanton Think about how much of the coin supply is in hands of the early adopters
 
heh
 
@ThePhD reinventing the wheel -> the thing you're working on is your wheel :p
 
The mining rate is slowing down exponentially
 
2:36 AM
@CatPlusPlus So you're making the argument that it's a ponzi scheme?
 
@CatPlusPlus is that Thatcher's fault, too?
 
@melak47 I'm not into politics sorry
 
user1357851
Then you have 2nd life, humans are stupid
 
user1357851
and stupid people tend to have more children
 
user1357851
human kind is doomed
 
user1357851
2:37 AM
On another hand it is not necessarily a bad thing
 
I don't care much either way it's just extremely funny to watch
 
user1357851
You have more freedom this way - if everything is defined and perfect, then psychologically one would not feel like to break that perfection. Because there is chao and so much imperfection, it is actually worth it to try
 
Buttcoin community = entertainment
I'll forever laugh at dried strawberries
 
user1357851
free entertainment at that ... if you did not invest
 
@Rapptz Sorry, I meant to get this article which explains that it will be eventually to 21m coins which makes it closer to the gold standard then our current paper fiat currencies economist.com/node/18836780
Does not mean other issues are not valid though
 
2:41 AM
@melak47 Ah, clever. :O
 
And people buying crapload of GPUs to mine and MAKING PURE PROFIT (because they're too stupid to account for things like used electricity)
 
@CatPlusPlus Calculators are there to take into account electricity costs.
 
:lol:
 
@ShafikYaghmour "The Bitcoin supply increases at a rate of 300 coins every hour on average at the moment, but every four years that rate will fall by a half. The total supply will level off at 21m coins or so around 2030. That appeals to those who distrust paper currencies." I think this is incorrect.
 
I dare you to profit from mining
 
2:42 AM
invest
 
Just try to not get a stroke from the heat or something
:v:
 
here's the thing
think of it as a self-regulating digital currency
 
1) I'm not mining, 2) I don't care about mining 3) Why is mining brought up?
 
Because it's funny
 
it will fail eventually, just like any regular currency eventually needs to be replaced and modernized
 
2:43 AM
I think of it as something hilarious
 
it can be transferred to another system
 
@Rapptz which part the 21m or that it appeals to those who distrust paper currency?
 
@DaggNabbit Well yeah but it's regulating itself as something sucky. I don't care much for the 'self-' here.
 
@LucDanton, yeah that's probably why it will fail
but i assume later incarnations will correct for this
 
@ShafikYaghmour 300 coins an hour is incorrect. The rate falling, I can't guarantee that but 21m at 2030 is strange too.
 
2:44 AM
i don't know if an automated system can work but it's worth trying
 
@Rapptz Well the 21m is part of the FAQ en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ
 
i could see governments getting behind a digital currency that (partially) regulates itself eventually
some governments
so they don't have to rely on banks
 
I don't think that's how banks work.
 
2:46 AM
National banks are pretty much a government thing
 
@ShafikYaghmour It just says 21m is the limit of how many coins can be there at any given time.
 
sort of
they're backed by world bank mostly though i think
 
Oh I got it.
 
I'm looking forward to seeing buttcoins plummet back to 1$
 
> The last block that will generate coins will be block #6,929,999 which should be generated at or near the year 2140. The total number of coins in circulation will then remain static at 20,999,999.9769 BTC.
Even if the allowed precision is expanded from the current 8 decimals, the total BTC in circulation will always be slightly below 21 million (assuming everything else stays the same). For example, with 16 decimals of precision, the end total would be 20,999,999.999999999496 BTC.
@CatPlusPlus Oh! This is something I can dare against.
I'm willing to bet it won't.
 
2:48 AM
I don't care but it's always funny
It's really a lottery more than a currency
 
I don't think I can objectively talk about this to you~ So I'm done.
Also, full disclosure. I don't have any BTC.
 
Ahaha someone getting invested in buttcoins
 
Because I knew you would say that.
 
user1357851
With that said, there is actually a global push to have real time payment system ... meaning person a pay from his bank A to a person b in the account of her bank B, it should happen instantly, even across the countries
 
You can read the thread it's pretty funny
 
user1357851
2:50 AM
so you can expect online payment system to be a big thing in the next, maybe 20 years
 
user1357851
That & data mining are the 'big things' are the moment
 
really the main problem with it is governments aren't set up to tax it
so if it goes mainstream they'll have to figure something out
 
Government doesn't tax internet transactions either ?_?
 
hmm, idk
they do in some cases for sure
 
(Though they do try.. and succeeded in like a couple US states)
 
2:54 AM
yeah
which makes things complicated
 
I don't know how taxation in the internet would work.
I think the way it's handled now is based on GeoIP.
But that seems primitive and I kinda hope not
 
i mean there's the also the obvious risk, it's not backed by anything... but just don't invest more than you can afford
if you think of it as an investment the risk makes sense
it's not like the value will suddenly drop off to 0
 
Well obviously because drugs
 
lol
right now, that's sorta true
and some failed banks
 
There will be a lot of people crying in months to come
 
2:57 AM
but it wouldn't drop off like that anyway, it takes time for everyone to get out
 
I don't know how you can see investing in something so extremely unstable as anything other than gambling
 
heh
look at the activity on blockchain.info
click the green "BTC" amounts to convert to USD
a good bit of this actually goes to online casinos
 
But bitcoins aren't used for anything!
 
Anything you can use bitcoins for is likely to either be illegal or irrelevant
Outside of exchanges
 
^
that's the point
exchanges
 
3:04 AM
Yes the exchanges
The most secure sites in the world
 
?
i mean, exchange some $ for BTC, wait a while, exchange it back
 
Don't you know the track record of Magic the Gathering Online Exchange
 
ah no
is it relevant
 
Well if you like to entrust your money with people that are really incompetent at keeping their currency exchange secure
Anyway
I think I should sleep or something
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes that might be a good idea, there's a scary amount of furballs around here ;)
 
3:11 AM
@ScottW I don't know man, I'm having a blast
 
3:31 AM
 
user1357851
LOL should do the chick in my avatar ...
 
3:52 AM
Who's got AI War?
The game
 
I have Dark Souls. :D
 
@Rapptz My favorite is still 'in 20 years, u still mad'.
 
user1357851
4:54 AM
@ScottW Yeah 3pm here
 
user1357851
 
user1357851
No facebook, lol
 
user1357851
serious .. no fb
 
user1357851
Skype handle: telkitty
 
user1357851
Saw that, haha, same picture as your Skype profile avatar
 
4:59 AM
I'm lame, you guys
 
user1357851
@ScottW already did
 
hello people
 
@Crowz Oh you're alive?
 
user1357851
Invisible. I am not on skype often.
 
@Rapptz nope, undead
 
user1357851
5:06 AM
 
user1357851
:D
 
how do I know if I'm real?
k
gaaaah why can't I focus and why can't I get what's in my mind on paper?
 
You worry too much.
 
@Borgleader Hahaha, they partially gave up on the voxel solution because they couldn't get it working on OpenGL platforms without paying a huge price in terms of performance. Probably part of Martin Mittring's involvement (ex-CryEngine lead) that they turned more towards screenspace reflections to enable glossy surfaces. :D
 
5:42 AM
@DomagojPandža ? :(
 
@melak47 No need for sadness, it still looks great. :D
 
but but, muh voxel cone tracing
 
Well, they need to stay afloat, so they had to investigate other avenues, especially considering Playstation 4. They didn't have compute shaders on OGL until 4.3, even with provisional extensions from vendors, it was at least two years too late. And faking compute kernels with vertex shader IDs is not really feasible performance-wise, original Crassin's work yielded barely 15 fps @ fullHD. Last year's UE4 demo yielded barely 30 fps on a top notch DX11-enabled PC.
Screenspace reflections, on the other hand are quite cheap, the only problem is that they work in screenspace and cannot sample things behind the camera, so you have to fade it out when the camera turns towards a reflective surface and probably exchange with a stencil-based planar reflection.
 
are they at least keeping it in the engine as something optional, or will we have to wait for UE5? :p
 
It will probably stay in there, I don't work there, it would be prudent to leave it as some sort of ultra setting. But truth be told, the demo they used to get 30 fps depended on mostly static scenes (1 time voxelization) and just one dynamic character and a bunch of spheres (the only things that required dynamic revoxelization). Next gen games are expected to offer lifelike cities, a lot of movement and the like (like the newest demo). Imagine revoxelizing every frame so much data. :/
Even though you can change the voxel grid resolution (and dim lighting quality), schedule revoxelization of dynamic objects every 5 frames (not a good idea for fast moving things), lower the resolution of glossy sampling... It's still intense.
 
5:54 AM
yeah. well...there's always Miri64? :D
 
Well, Miri64 is PC-only, so I don't really have to worry about consoles, so ASVO will remain a part of it. :D I'm just hoping to rope in some vendor non-specific sparse texture extensions, but 4.3 hasn't really materialized on AMD hardware. And I can't offer partial support in my right mind. I've always hated games that bear the signia of a particular graphics hardware house.
 
@DomagojPandža it's simple...we kill AMD
 
I was really curious how Sweeney and the squad (Epic) pulled off voxel cone tracing on consoles... And now it seems to be just a marketing ploy. Well played. Gained traction and hype on buzztech, then switched to more manageable solutions.
 
I feel betrayed
 
=[
How dare they.
 
6:08 AM
It's still very pretty. I was hoping to see Mass Effect 4 on it, but BioWare switched to Frostbite 2 for some reason. They probably decided to bail ship before they saw UE4.
 
What was ME3, 2, and 1 built on?
Homegrown stuff?
 
@ThePhD Unreal Engine 3, although they claim they modified it. Really, the Mass Effect 2 engine is Unreal Engine 3 with two shaders rewritten. Smug bastards. :D
 
@DomagojPandža Clever.
Plus, BioWare is strung along by EA.
It would make sense that EA push Epic's engine out of the picture since they're developing their own.
 
I'm not even sure whether the old Edmonton team (yay, Canada /@EtiennedeMartel @Borgleader) is working on it (they've been involved with it 2003 when it was codenamed SFX). Some say it was delegated to another team, hopefully away from the smug bastard called Casey Hudson.
@ThePhD Well, DICE's Frostbite 2 is really nice. And Frostbite 3, too. It uses a cute approach of precomputing a simplified geometry layout (courtesy of Geomerics' Enlighten tech) of the scene which is tied to the varying-resolution "real geometry". And the lightmap laid on top of it accumulates lighting information, radiosity - to be specific. It's not a full solution (at least, IIRC, it doesn't implicitly support glossy surfaces, only diffuse color bleeding).
In other news, I'm not really sure why I know this much about the architecture of other people's engines.
 
@DomagojPandža Industrial espionage?
 
6:17 AM
Heh, I guess I'm just a big fan. I really appreciate the work and ingenuity of other people working in the field. It's really an inspiration to see their work work and in commercial applications at that, not just technical demonstrations which depend on a controlled environment.
 
@Rapptz Traversia? It's really cute. :D
 
I was going to link to that one too. => reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/1cpzkp/…
Jelly :(
Screenshot Saturday is my "I'm very jealous of you people :(" day
 
I'd really like to make a game someday. There's a huge discrepancy between game middleware development and actual game development. Too bad it is so time consuming.
 
I would too.
It's in my bucket list, but no matter how many times I try it just never happens and it gets dropped a la zoidberg.
 
6:27 AM
I haven't even gotten too much into KotOR II and my light side points are already maxed out, what the?
 
@DomagojPandža Join me? <3
 
@ThePhD because random people in a chat room deciding to make a game together always works out so well :)
plus your code is seriously scary
 
@jalf This. :D
 
=[
My code is not scary.
It is wonderful.
 
@ThePhD And that attitude is the scariest of it all
Really, I do not ever, in a million years, want to work with someone who refuses to even discuss or consider the quality of his code, and who has to plaster his code with comments about how awesome and dangerous his code is to even convince himself that it's a good idea
 
6:31 AM
.... Wat.
 
@ThePhD wat wat?
Your cowboy_cast, the thing that scared me was not the perfectly harmless type punning via a union. It was that you felt the urge to name it cowboy_cast and write a small novel above it disclaiming everything and underlying how incredibly awesome and/or dangerous it was
 
=[
Cowboy cast was a joke.
 
And your insistence on calling it "wonderful" or "awesome" when people comment on it
 
jalf, I think that was a joke. :D
 
> The idea is that all of them sit in the same space in memory. Storage of a union is inferred from the largest datatype in a given implementation. Platforms have a lot of freedom here. Freedom the specifications cannot cover. Not C. Not C++. You must not write to the union as an int and then read it as a float (or anything else) as a way of some weird cowboy reinterpret_cast. Domagoj on unions
 
6:36 AM
@DomagojPandža So? There's usually a few grains of truth to any joke. And what bothered me was the attitude of making excuses for the code
 
^ If you see my comment, it was spawned directly from his answer.
 
@ThePhD What do you mean, "if you see my comment"? It's right there, why wouldn't I see it? :p
but fair enough about the naming of it :)
you're off the hook for that ;)
also, you decide if the rest of it applies to your code or not. I'm just speaking from what I've seen, and again, it wasn't the actual cast that bothered me. If your actual code is a shining marvel of beauty, that's cool
gah, it's getting late. I need to run
 
Xeo
Fuck you, body. Don't just wake up at 7am on a Saturday. And again at 9am when I decided to just go back to sleep.
 
:D
 
lol
 
6:47 AM
@Xeo Good Morning, Xeo-chan~
 
@Xeo Good Morning, Xeo-tan~
 
Xeo
>_>
 
hi thar
 
Is there something like git rm --cached for Mercurial?
 
Xeo
Atleast I'm waking up to Railgun Ep 2
 
6:50 AM
Foliage alpha test and depth ordering is strong with this one.
 
:d
 
Xeo
@LucDanton On _ - What exactly makes it less powerful than Boost.MPL's _ at the moment? Nested templates?
 
No, the substitution is performed recursively. It's the meaning of the placeholder, it's substituted as the nth argument, where n is the position in the current template (specialization).
So Eval<std::is_constructible<_, int>, int> does the obvious, but Eval<std::is_constructible<int, _>, int> is an error.
 
What's _?
 
annex::meta::placeholders::_
 
6:55 AM
What's it do?
(I've never used Boost.MPL)
 
I can write e.g. meta::FindIf<std::is_reference<_>, some_sequence> instead of doing the same but with Arg1.
On the other hand something like std::is_constructible<_, _> is short for std::is_constructible<Arg1, Arg2>.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton So, Eval<some_trait<_, int, _>, int, int> would also be an error?
 
Yup.
 
Xeo
Well, I think that's fine. Since it currently produces an error, you can extend the functionality in the future if you want, without breaking anything.
 
6:59 AM
@Rapptz Sort of. Except with less functionality. Which is a nice way of saying mine sucks!
 

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