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3:00 PM
@Cicada now now, play nice
 
anyway
 
@Cicada not smart, just wary of a future where WPF is the next MSAgent or HTA
 
I'm going to go and waste my money making myself even more fat
 
"screw you guys, I'm going home"
 
@EtiennedeMartel Idd, but the whole framework is so powerful (and rather well designed, overall)
@thecoshman Not being screwed by that statement
 
3:01 PM
WPF is great on paper, but in practice they really messed up parts of it which really push up its long-term costs
for example, native controls have to be entirely re-implemented. There's no support for visual styles
 
what exactly what the question here?
 
'shopped, I can tell by the pixels
 
@David Srsly
No support for visual styles
I don't even
 
is this the new "viruses? in my computer?" photoshop fad going around the chans?
 
3:03 PM
@David What.
 
Cicada: WPF does not make any use of the native windows Visual Styles "uxTheme" API. The Aero, Luna, and MCE styles are all re-implemented within WPF.
 
You can retemplate the whole fucking thing.
 
that's not much use if you're on a tight time budget
and it means your WPF apps are going to look ugly when you run them on Windows 9 or Windows 10 in 5 years' time
 
I don't even know what to answer lol
 
Well, there's always WinForms if you want an app that looks ugly.
 
3:04 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Java, please. Ugliness yes, but consistent ugliness
 
@David It won't even run in 5 years time on Windows 9 or Windows 10
 
because I gurantee MS won't port Win9/10's new visual style to WPF
 
@David There won't even be desktop apps by then. Everything will be on the cloud anyway.
 
@Niel it will run, just won't be a first-class citizen on the platform
 
Not even sure Windows 8 promises compatibility with current applications
 
3:05 PM
@David Citation needed
 
@Cicada WPF's support lifecycle means it will run on Windows for the next 10 years
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think a good bit can be done using cloud computing, but there will always be security software / anti-virus software which is very much local
 
@Neil High-responsiveness soft too
 
Everything on the cloud sucks.
 
@Cicada In .NET? Baha.
 
3:06 PM
a "cloud" consumption device is entirely sandboxed, there will be no viruses
 
@Cicada True, gaming will be still at least partially dependent upon the local machine
 
like my iPad
@Niel: I dunno, OnLive is doing okay
I don't personally use it because I've got a 2560 display
but if I were on a low-end laptop at 1368x768 then I might
 
It's like you're just here to showoff.
 
lol
 
@EtiennedeMartel I +1 that
 
3:08 PM
@David Let me ask you a question, though I'm afraid I know the answer to it already: If we somehow managed to put all applications we use on the computer accessible from some web site, according to you we would not have to worry about security?
 
@rubenvb Ingsoc loves the cloud!
 
Neil: not /local/ security, no
 
Nuke the servers! Woo!
Or, hack one server, and bam, you got the data of everybody.
 
Well, Gmail on the cloud is awesome. Docs on the cloud sucks.
 
I didn't say anything about the servers
 
3:09 PM
It's like we're really going for the single point of failure.
 
Maps on the cloud = awesome.
 
@David The internet has introduced huge problems with security which didn't exist before. The more dependent you become to a new platform, the more security you need for such a system
 
There's just a lot of stuff I do not want on the friggin' cloud.
 
Etienne: how ironic, because the "cloud" usually means the servers are multiply-redundant
 
Dropbox isn't all that great as an all-in-one solution either.
 
3:09 PM
@Neil, yes, but the original comment was about local anti-virus software
 
@David he said nuke. I think he meant obliterate... all of them.
 
Having cloud computing have access to what you see and do on your computer is not just a red flag, it's a sheet of red cloth the size of Texas
 
I never made that claim
Google Docs or Office 365 on my iPad means I no-longer have to worry about viruses. Simple.
 
@David Security is no exception, it's the rule
 
This is a very very very good troll
 
3:11 PM
I don't know who is trolling who :(
 
@Cicada Wait, who is trolling who here?
 
@David w...t...f... did you just say. That statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
 
@David "whom"
 
@rubenvb That would be the first one
 
Good morning Pedantry loving freaks, brothers and sisters!
 
3:12 PM
@JimNorton evening, C masochist.
 
@JimNorton evening
 
I take it JimNorton is a regular here
 
@David For the last week or so
 
I only came in here to bitch about C++'s primitive type naming scheme :(
 
@rubenvb Yes... that would be me. But I do C because I have to at work. I know this isn't much better, but I'd prefer to be writing C#
 
3:14 PM
:4227113 You are easy.
Damn girl.
 
@David I come here because I like to lounge - I don't really know C++ well. ( yet )
 
@JimNorton only few here do.
 
@JimNorton Same, I'm also particularly weak with C++. Yet these guys let me stay for some reason. :P
 
(I'm not one of them)
@Mysticial You still here?!?!? Git off me propety!
 
@Mysticial Yeah it's great isn't it?
 
3:15 PM
@JimNorton Writing in C messes with your mind. I bet in 5 years time you'll be writing static-only methods in C#
 
How the Room's top secret project coming along anyways?
 
So it's my Friday morning at work, and I'm just not sure I'm motivated yet to do any real work.
 
@Mysticial Same here. It's worse, the more I learn C++, the less I like it.
 
@rubenvb Shh.. these are not the droids you're looking for
 
@Mysticial Says the guy who has answers with 660 upvotes.
 
3:16 PM
@Neil droids? Wut?I certainly... All hail the hypnotoad!
 
@rubenvb It's like we are all occupied with other stuff. So, slowly.
 
Anything beyond basic classes in C++ scares me. TMP, multiple inheritance... it looks as confusing as Japanese writing.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's like totally... unexpected. Weird really. And astounding too. :P`
 
@Mysticial basic templates should be doable too. Really. I just grasped exceptions, all the stuff in your list is pretty much beyond me :)
 
3:18 PM
@EtiennedeMartel There were no "advanced" C++ topics in that. :D
 
@Neil Nah, when I write C# I try to do the OO stuff.
 
@JimNorton You're not programming OO because C# allows it, are you?
 
@rubenvb I can also do basic templates. But nothing beyond a simple type parameter.
 
@JimNorton Do be sure to do that. Studies have shown people who code too long in a specific language tend to not be able to want to understand how to do it in better ways in other languages
 
@rubenvb No, I do it only when it makes sense.
 
3:19 PM
@JimNorton Good. I almost grabbed my rifle. :-)
 
I'd marry the one who makes a language as fast as C, powerful as C++, and goodlooking as C#
3
(You also need to be clever handsome rich and funny, though)
 
@Cicada What's so good looking about C#? The lambda syntax is crazy in my eyes.
 
@Cicada Well, I'm clever and funny... handsome... I'm not the best judge of that.
 
@Cicada I think the guy who invented Java is taken. *runs for it*
 
Oh btw, I got my doctorate scholarship :)
 
3:21 PM
@rubenvb Is the lambda stuff at all associated with FP?
 
@JimNorton FP?
 
@rubenvb The extreme lack of UB. High verbosity and stuff
 
@rubenvb Functional programming
 
I find it a long-shot to say that "C is faster than C++". Simply because pretty much anything you can do in C can be done with C++ - albeit improper C++ if that counts.
 
C# started off well, but it is a little gimmicky in my opinion. Too much added because people wanted it there, not because it was meant for that language.
 
3:22 PM
@Mysticial I didn't say that. I carefully crafted my sentence, that's all.
 
@JimNorton kind of yeah, it's more syntactic sugar for things already possible though.
 
@Mysticial Google did a speed benchmark of several languages and C was the fastest. Off course it's just a benchmark... In the real world it depends on so many factors.
 
I'd probably never get used to C#'s capitalized function names. shudder
 
Java has shown to be faster than C++, with a little tweaking
 
@JimNorton At the same time, I bet you could modify most of those C programs to compile in C++.
 
3:23 PM
And I don't doubt that part of that tweaking involves disabling the garbage collector.
 
@Neil Yeah. Add ::sleep(10000) in the C++ code
 
I would guess if you stuck to very basic OO features of C++ so that the virtual function table isn't too large it can be as fast as C?
 
@Cicada I do not lie. I could probably find the article if you'd read it.
 
@JimNorton you can code perfectly fancy C++ without any virtual functions.
 
@Neil Am just being puny ;_;
 
3:25 PM
@rubenvb So no polymorphism?
 
@rubenvb virtual functions actually slow things down a bit
But it doesn't matter how many classes override a virtual function. If it's virtual, it slows it down just for being virtual.
@Cicada Uh huh, sure sure.
The fact that it has to do a lookup makes it slower
Though, all things considered, there are things more important than speed, guys.. Seriously
 
@Neil Probably because the C++ version was complete shit?
 
@Neil This really depends on your app
AAA games can't afford a GC
 
@Mysticial It wasn't done with modern C++ versions, that's true. Don't know if that makes a difference though.
 
@Neil I meant whoever wrote did the C++ implementation probably sucked.
 
3:28 PM
@Cicada I'd like to think that one day we'll be beyond having to worry about post incrementals vs pre-incrementals. Le *sigh*
 
only constexpr and TMP make C++ so much farther than C.
 
@Neil I'd say that anyone who hits a bottleneck with virtual function calls is doing pretty damn well optimizing everything else. :P
 
@Mysticial Ah, maybe, but I don't think it was obvious at least or it wouldn't have gotten any notice
 
@Neil Well, HotSpot does perform adaptative optimizations. Although, most benchmarks actually just do calculations and do not allocate memory, so the GC never runs.
 
@Neil CC @Jim that's what I meant yes.
 
3:29 PM
And the GC is the biggest performance hog in any Java app.
 
@Mysticial True dat :)
 
Hey guys!
 
The worst virtual function penalty I've ever hit in "real" code was only about 10 - 20%.
 
@Neil It's actually expensive
 
How do you access the destructor of a non-pointer type?
 
3:30 PM
I shouldn't say "only 10 - 20%". But it was an extreme case... Literally hundreds of millions of them per second.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Right, I didn't say it was optimal after tweaking. Likely things were set that should remain as they are
@Cicada That's precisely what I mean!
 
You realize something like a = b + c can be up to 30% slower than a = b; a += c
 
@Cicada And we don't yet have a compiler to think about these things? Come on.
 
(When those are non primitive POD types)
@Neil No we don't
 
@Cicada That would depend on a ton of things. (oh, you meant non-primitive)
 
3:31 PM
@Drise instance.~ClassName();This is not for the faint of heart.
 
Compiler can't optimize that
@Mysticial Yes it does! I'm not saying it does not
 
@rubenvb why so?
 
@Cicada Sure it can. There doesn't exist a situation for a,b, and c such that that optimization doesn't work or is inaccurate
 
@Neil Of course there is! Read my post: non-primitive POD types
 
Where's @RMartinhoFernandes when we need him?
 
3:32 PM
@Drise You shouldn't be calling the destructor yourself almost 99% of the time.
 
@Cicada Wouldn't the current crop of compilers optimize the first form anyways?
 
@Cicada Oh. :/
 
can you do that in C arr[id][d++] ?
is that defined behaviour?
 
@JimNorton non-pod types
 
@JimNorton Read my post just under
 
3:33 PM
@rubenvb I have a class, but I'm not using a pointer to it. Should I just break down and use the pointer instead?
 
Problem with the language then
 
@TonyTheLion Yes I believe it is.
 
@Drise If you didn't new it, it's on the stack, so just let it go out of scope (it will autodestruct at that point).
 
This sucks
 
by non-primitive POD I mean "non primitive AND pod" (I wasn't very clear, sorry)
 
3:34 PM
I gotta do a meeting at 6'oclock :(
 
@rubenvb But it won't fall out of scope. Its a member to a class.
 
@Cicada "non primitive AND pod" what does that mean?
 
@Drise Then it will get destroyed with an object of a class, automatically.
 
Never heard the term POD.
 
@rubenvb But I'm still using the class that's holding onto the other class.
 
3:36 PM
@JimNorton it's usually used in conjunction with People
 
POD = pretty old donuts
 
@Drise I don't follow. Code please.
 
@Mysticial Exactly this
 
Ah, so it's like POJO, except not.
 
The pod is also the hub in LittleBigPlanet.
 
3:37 PM
@CaptainObvlious POD people scare me.
 
@Cicada Oh... as in structs... haha I knew that...
 
@JimNorton ok thanks
 
@JimNorton i POD
 
I'm all about the Androids
I'm not a computer scientist like some of you folks. I guess I'm a good "developer"/"mechanic", but I don't really design the engines.
 
3:39 PM
These aren't the hemorrhoids you're looking for
 
No intervention necessary :)
 
@Potatoswatter Predicted .
 
@rubenvb I understand scope destruction. But I'm still using Bar (and can't delete it) when I need to destruct Foo.
 
guess I'll go be productive and goof off some more.
 
@Drise why do you need to do that?
Just swap it, or assign a new Foo.
 
3:41 PM
pathetic! I thought logging is more than a file write operation. — Amol Pujari 29 mins ago
.___.
 
or make a reset kind of function. You haven't shown any reason to your reasoning you need to call the destructor.
 
At least I have rep divisible by 10.
2
 
@CatPlusPlus har har, you're still on that one :D
 
@Cicada Is that image of you?
 
Something good came out of helping stupid people, woo.
 
3:42 PM
@JimNorton wat?
 
@JimNorton No, she's really a squirrel.
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't see that tag on this question
 
@Cicada Is your Avatar a picture of you?
 
@TonyTheLion Predicted.
 
@JimNorton *piccard_facepalm.jpg*
 
3:43 PM
I wanted to avoid "inb4", but now you force me to use it.
 
I find that Cicada to be cute. That's all... please don't take offense.
 
@CatPlusPlus "Predicted" is past tense, meaning it's already happened. Predict ..... would be more correct :P
 
@JimNorton No, It's my owner. I'm actually a Cicada, you know. I live on the bark of a tree.
 
@Cicada dafuq did I just read.
 
3:45 PM
Yes.
 
@rubenvb Lol
@Cicada Lol
 
 
@TonyTheLion No.
 
Oh no, image macros.
Macroes are evul, haven't you heard.
 
3:48 PM
inb4 #define
 
Yes, we know that picture.
2
I can't see any stars. :(
Laptop screens suck.
 
@CatPlusPlus eVulva.
 
@sehe 3
now
 
(Oh, I'm going straight to hell for this)
 
3:49 PM
I didn't... So I googled for it.. :-)
 
WOA WHAT THE FUCK.
 
@Cicada nice
 
Hur
 
@Drise how is the "big" class "holding on to" the small class? If you allocated it with new, then use delete (or a smart pointer), in virtually all other cases, you don't have to do anything with it.
 
... starred anyway
 
3:50 PM
lol don't star that "hur" alone it makes me look more retarded than I already am
 
There, can't star the removed pic
 
@Drise related: ever since shared_ptr/unique_ptr/vector, there is no longer a reason for you to have anything in your destructor.
 
What smart pointer would you use if you needed to write a class which uses a pointer to another for data and should technically be outlived by that class. weak_ptr?
 
@MooingDuck Not really true.
 
3:51 PM
@Neil or a raw pointer
 
user784668
@Neil T*
 
Shit, I suppose I should get some work done this morning..
 
@MooingDuck So I shouldn't even use a smart pointer you think? Hmm..
 
@CatPlusPlus no, it's not, but for the most part....
 
You know what, the user list takes so much space.
 
3:52 PM
@Neil only use a smart pointer if they own the object. If they don't own the object, use a raw pointer
 
I think I'm just going to get rid of it.
 
@Neil yes, or a reference.
 
@MooingDuck I'm still using the big class. It's a Ui object that the user is still using. The small class is a storage class that's holding onto some data, but if the user changes data files, I need to clean out the storage, and start again.
 
@rubenvb references work poorly as members due to not being reassignable.
@CatPlusPlus how?
 
@MooingDuck depends on your needs. I find them sufficient for some stuff.
 
3:53 PM
@Cicada Fur
 
With magic.
And CSS.
 
Well I mean it should be used this way, but since I'm not the one putting this class to use, I can't guarantee it'll be used properly
 
@CatPlusPlus you could just get a larger screen :P
 
user784668
@MooingDuck User CSS?
 
@sehe I'd stroke yours.
Now misquote that.
 
3:54 PM
@TonyTheLion Not really possible right now.
Also user list is pretty much useless anyway.
 
user784668
@CatPlusPlus Get a better now.
 
It doesn't really matter who's keeping session online.
 
@rubenvb yeah, I didn't mean "never use them" just "they don't work for most use-cases"
 
@CatPlusPlus handy to see who is online but silent.
 
@rubenvb And that's useful for what?
Yay, stars, I can see stars again.
 
3:55 PM
@CatPlusPlus stop complaining and get a bigger screen.
 
@Drise void bigclass::clear() {smallmember = smallmember(); }
 
@Drise I'd put the clear part in a reload_user_data function.
 
Took me a while to realize that eclipse cdt in windows requires a linux-style path to acquire the include path using cygwin compiler suite
 
@MooingDuck Yea. Except the destructor removes some visual elements, so I need to explicitly destroy it.
 
3:57 PM
C++ can sting
 
@rubenvb I really just didn't feel like writing a new function that did exactly what my destructor did.
 
@JimNorton That's @JerryCoffin
 
@rubenvb I can't, so I'd rather remove useless parts of the UI. ._.
 
@Drise Well, you have the reload_user_data thing already, I'd say. Just do what @MooingDuck said, myFoo = Foo; in that function.
 
@CatPlusPlus You handy with javascript? ^_^
 
3:59 PM
That doesn't require JS.
 
@Cicada I'm daft sometimes, I don't follow the meaning of your comment..
 

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