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00:53
could someone take a quick look at this Python issue please:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/39988211/how-to-close-an-hdf5-using-low-level-python-api?noredirect=1#comment67298093_39988211
user559633
01:04
@JoranBeasley unless someone is just brute forcing it, in which case, they have the same chance of cracking it
Can brute forcing succeed fairly well even with a maximum attempt, like 5?
granted, this is assuming non-crappy encryption
user559633
depends on the timeout.
most max attempt implementations will have a timeout? Is Active Directory like that too? I assume it's there, but some decide to leave it more to "contact admin" if you lock yourself out?
user559633
the point is that forcing users to jump from one password to another is only security against unknown data leaks or temporal things like "users are thought to be basing passwords off of their hire-date"
user559633
the max attempt + lockout duration/forced user reset is the thing that makes it hard to crack passwords
01:10
^^ right, that's what I understood as well.
I guess I didn't understand your first statement about having the same chance of cracking
user559633
pretty trivial to create a microcosm of how regular password changing doesn't help: say that you are trying to crack my password. you decide to brute force via monotonically increasing guesses.
-> i set my password to c1
=> you try a0->a9
... corporate forces me to reset my password
-> i set my password to b2
=> you try b0->b2
=> you gain access, and i helped
@tristan a previous employer suggested incrementing a number in them... :|
user559633
Yeah, Active Directory has options for password lockout durations, min remembered passwords, that kind of stuff.
I also used AD Explorer at my previous job
that was like hax
user559633
@enderland lol. i had a previous employer with an interface that would reject passwords that were "too similar" to the previous one. think about how that was implemented for a second
user559633
01:13
as i imagine they only thought about the implementation for a second
@tristan obviously they were comparing hashed passwords. shiftyeyes
I might be asking a stupid question here. To keep with your example, how would I know to start checking b0->b2. Is it based on the brute force tries, I know that those attempts were failed...so I omit them in my next effort?
user559633
@enderland hah, oh?
I'm joking :P
user559633
@idjaw our attempts are not bound/lock-step
user559633
01:14
@enderland yeah, and they were jokes
user559633
say that the interface says "after 3 failed attempts in an hour, your account will be locked for 24 hours." well, looks like i'm trying 2 an hour.
This issue would be so much easier to solve if I didn't need to maintain backwards compatibility.
user559633
It's Pythonic not to bother with backwards compatibility
it's true! Python 3 did it
Technically Flask-WTF is still <1.0 so I could justify it.
user559633
01:23
Flask, WTF. Justified.
The code does one thing, the docs say another, and I just want to use the standard Flask error handler.
I can't stand 0.#.# releases
I think I can get it to allow the current behavior, fix the documented behavior that doesn't actually happen, raise a deprecation warning, and support the new method all in one
But that almost sounds worse.
@davidism you just explained the issue I dealt with today
highfive
user559633
Or raise a deprecation warning that it will be changed 2 point releases out?
01:25
raising a deprecation warning isn't a horrible idea.
nah just raise an exception randomly later on
A quick GitHub survey shows almost no use of the feature, and it's split about 50/50 on which half-documented behavior they're using. Not that that's a very reliable metric.
oh this is for a real issue, with real users? :P
user559633
Is this a github issue?
Basically, error_handler is documented that you should return a response, but it only does anything if you raise an error, and it doesn't use the normal Flask error system.
I'm going to rewrite the decorator to convert a response to an error (which is handled correctly later), passtrhough a raised error, and raise a deprecation warning no matter what that they should add a handler for CSRFError instead.
user559633
01:32
Oh, it was meant to raise an exception per the docs?
Other way around.
I've probably put more thought into this than all the time that will be lost from just telling people to change their code.
how active is this? deprecation seems the best bet
It's one of the more popular Flask extensions, so I have to deprecate it.
you're on pre-releases anyways
Most of the Flask ecosystem is like that, no one ever decided to 1.0 anything.
Even though everything's been stable for years.
01:34
10 mins ago, by enderland
I can't stand 0.#.# releases
we have at least one team internally that won't commit to a 1.0 either
user559633
user image
3
bleh
@tristan say it ain't so!
user559633
I can't even find where I'm using CSRF from wtforms in my app, but I know I am
You're probably not using the wrapper, just the normal Form protection.
My next task after this is to convert Flask-WTF to WTForms 2/3 from 1.
user559633
That's likely. Or I'm not actually using it, but the dead code is still there
01:38
That will make it a 1.0 release.
The other problem is that Flask stuff has no release schedule, so no one expects me to suddenly make a bunch of releases.
I guess I could start announcing it on /r/flask and the mailing list.
user559633
I get my release news from deprecation warnings and log messages. (i'm not trying to be snide or funny, i legitimately only find out about breaking changes as a result of nosetests)
@DSM How about that Matthews! Quite the debut!
funny enough. That happens very often for me too.
I find out accidentally...i.e. tests fail
user559633
(python api) ▶ wc -l requirements.txt
26 requirements.txt
(frontend JS) ▶ npm list | wc -l
141
haha
DSM
DSM
@idjaw: I texted my father and said "kid can play". He scored his fourth a minute later.
01:47
It only took a month after flagging, but "serial voting reversed" on three downvoted answers. \o/
@DSM and it's still not over! Would be wild if he put one in, in OT or won in a shoot out
DSM
DSM
02:02
Toronto, where storybook endings go to die.
yeah.....
that didn't end too well for them
DSM
DSM
Better he get used to it early.. :-/. Good to have hockey back in my life, though.
:) yeah
looking forward to a good season
 
2 hours later…
03:55
how fast can a question be deleted so the trolling can stop?
Not fast enough, unfortunately. I'm staying out of the comments on that one.
Kudos to the Facebook group person who was patient enough to tell the Nth person to check the logs.
yup. I said my one piece trying to clarify providing an MCVE
removing myself from it. Don't want to be part of that anymore.
04:46
OK, pushed a pretty big patch to Flask-WTF fixing / cleaning up CSRF handling: github.com/lepture/flask-wtf/pull/264. Time for sleep.
test
05:05
@tristan but since it is being reset to a random hash of 14-16 characters [a-zA-Z0-9] every five tries that effectivly invalidates the explored search space every time it resets... so you have to try the seach space in a totally random order which gives them about a 5 in 62**15 chance of guessing the right password (in the best circumstance)
(it actually locks the account and requires the user to use the "forgot password feature" at that point (which emails the hash to the user(along with the requesting ip)))
given an infinite ammt of time an attacker could certainly gain access ..
 
1 hour later…
06:34
me want to hire a tutor
06:46
Cabbage :-)
does anyone here know how greedy algorithms work?
@tristan This might help you understand why you need that many deps.. :D
07:11
cabbage
07:28
Cabbage!
Cabbage
user6568562
Cabbage
@Theo That's a rather broad question. As Wikipedia says: "A greedy algorithm is an algorithmic paradigm that follows the problem solving heuristic of making the locally optimal choice at each stage with the hope of finding a global optimum. In many problems, a greedy strategy does not in general produce an optimal solution, but nonetheless a greedy heuristic may yield locally optimal solutions that approximate a global optimal solution in a reasonable time."
@Withnail I think you'll be able to relate to this one: Software development office politics
5
07:50
Cabbage
@WayneWerner For your non_repeating() function I quite like DSM's solution that uses groupby, but here's an alternative that should be reasonably fast.
def non_repeating(seq):
    m = len(seq)
    idx = randrange(0, m)
    while True:
        yield seq[idx]
        idx = (idx + randrange(1, m)) % m
08:50
Cabbage!
09:19
Still searching for a solution...Any other ideas? Or rearrangements of the already posted ideas? — SDahm 29 mins ago
@PM2Ring funny you bring that up again - they're still asking ^^^ :)
@JonClements Ah. I didn't realise that Wayne's question came from a SO question.
@Anaphory cbg
@JonClements Hmm. Eliminating repeats but keeping the distribution of values equal sounds tricky. It might even be impossible, but I'll have to think about it...
09:55
cbg
@PM2Ring ... and ... most of the time, not.
@AnttiHaapala True, although sometimes locally optimal solutions are adequate. Or you can generate a bunch of such solutions and use them as starting points to a better algorithm that searches for global optima. Of course, the locally optimal solutions may be utter garbage, depending on the structure of the fitness landscape of the problem.
Hi, do you know if python has memory limitation ? My program crash with "large" data without any exception
I just answered a Python 2 Unicode question. Did I say anything dumb or wrong? stackoverflow.com/a/40017764/4014959
@PM2Ring though when you ask a randroid, then local optimum always leads to global optimum.
@AnttiHaapala :shrugs:
10:06
@PyNico crash how
@AnttiHaapala with 0 information, just disappear. i tried to catch something but nothing
"just disappear"
programs do not just "disappear"
@PyNico How are you running this script? And what OS, and Python version?
+1
say, on linux it would rather raise a signal on a crash
@AnttiHaapala My guess is that Nico is running the script from its icon on Windows, and the console window closes when the script terminates.
10:09
Windows 8.1, The script is a PyQt5 application i run it from pycharm (or form command line from my virtualenv) python3.4
@PyNico so no thing like "the applciation has made an invalid blabla"
Futhermore, the soft crash more on pycharm debug mode which is more heavy so, that's why i was asking for memory. But no i also checked the windows events but nothing
@PyNico If a Python program running in a terminal crashes then it will print a Traceback. If you don't get a Traceback that means the script terminated without error.
exit() is not "crash"
Yes but it should not exit()
If i iterate in a long list, why could it exit() without finish the iteration ?
10:23
nice...
@PyNico Can you create a MCVE? If it's less than a dozen lines or so you can post it here, otherwise put it on an external site like pastebin and post the link here.
a local moose-hunting team in Savonlinna is taking some asylum-seekers along on the moose hunt to teach them the Finnish hunting culture. "Finland First, Close Borders" organizes a demonstration to protest against this.
@AndrasDeak ^
Marmite is foul beyond description and should be legally banned
10:32
that's not being discussed here :D
hmm
"The holiday show was filmed at Trump Tower and includes a group of 10-year-old girls. Mr Trump asks one if she is going up the escalator. When she tells him she is, he looks at the camera and says to the home audience: “I’m going to be dating her in 10 years. Can you believe it?”
At any rate, the GBP rate is good for me since I still have a lot of euros I need to exchange for GBP ;-)
Wow - that turned into a massive XY problem: stackoverflow.com/questions/40017198/…
walking away from that one
downvoted, cvd
actually could cv as unclear what you're asking
I don't get how does one get the output from the input - neither before but also not after - reading the code.
10:55
Yeah, I CV'ed as unclear, but I left a comment:
@Astrophe: The # -- coding: utf-8 -- directive tells the Python interpreter that the text of the script itself is encoded with UTF-8. That influences how Python interprets literal strings in the script itself, but it has absolutely no effect on how your script processes data. — PM 2Ring 2 mins ago
Also turns out to be an XML/HTML parsing question blah blah blah
yeah
zalgo
11:25
Cabbage
and gone
user559633
@JoranBeasley It doesn't invalidate the guesses that are already tried any more than not changing the password unless the attacker is crawling linearly and the user happens to reset the password to something in the already attempted region. The lock out is the part that is providing the boon, not just the password changing
user559633
@thefourtheye Yeah, that article is actually pretty bang on, but amusingly, it's not complete
Ahh... Bob Dylan has won the Nobel Peace Prize for Literature...
Yup, For rock music
11:40
@PyNico if it's crashing in pycharm debug, what are you seeing there? is it killing Pycharm as well? Yes, there are memory limits that come into play on windows machines in particular (e.g. Py2 has a 2Gb upper limit for 32-bit py even on 64-bit windows machines, as I discovered yesterday - I'm not sure if that carries over onto Py3 or not)
@Withnail naturally, but there is no "silent crash"
user559633
Let's leave politics out. There are no winners and diving into the Clintons' past is very not safe for work.
@tristan it is a Finnish flash game :D
user559633
k
@tristan stop being not fun
user559633
11:44
bill clinton is a rapey piece of shit and hillary is a megalomaniac that feels above our laws and whose arrogance and general incompetence is a threat to national security
user559633
trump is a sleazeball that's in way over his head
user559633
am i being fun yet?
yeah, that's what I mean Antti. I think there's maybe an issue with Windows forcing the window closed on crash/close, which it does by default on most setups, and is a pain (again, from debuggint his last week...)
@tristan yes... and donald trump is both a rapey shit and a megalomaniac
user559633
hooray this game is fun, you're right! we should have more of this in the room
11:45
and the game is still fun :D
How about some cheerier UK politics? The ruling party in Scotland announced at conference today that if the UK Gov pursues 'hard brexit', they're going to pass law for Independence referendum 2.
Go home, 2016, you're drunk.
If you'd predicted any of this stuff in 2010 you'd have been carted off as a crackpot.
Or a crackpipe. shrugs
I would really hate to live in the US right now
user559633
Why? The US is great.
for how long? :D
user559633
You seriously think we can't handle 4 years of a president we hate?
11:49
that's what you've been doing ever since Reagan I guess :P
hate would be easy
Python 2 vs Python 3 is very important.
it is almost as important as the global politics.
user559633
Yeah, somehow we've remained the dominant world force with presidents we don't particularly like. Weird!
I wonder what the viewpoints of the presidential nominees are on that. Or how Brexit will affect the adoption of Python 3
Major Uk papers literally calling people who are asking how, exactly, the Brexit process will work 'traitors' and 'unpatriotic', I think there's a whole bunch of just bleh-ness about politics at the momeny.
:D @Carpetsmoker
11:51
3 pythons are clearly better than 2 pythons
"I was born a snake handler, and i'll DIE a snake handler!"
@JonClements I posted a couple of solutions. I think the 1st one (the code I posted here earlier) gives a pretty uniform distribution, but I don't have the mathematical skills to prove it. But I'm fairly certain my second solution does give a uniform distribution.
@Withnail I believe you are referring to The Daily Mail? That's not a newspaper. I'm not suer what to call it, but it's not a newspaper
Also, the idea that "the British people want a Brexit" is somewhat simplistic at best. 52% of ~60% of the UK population voted in favour of the Brexit, which is not really a majority...
user559633
~60% is not a majority?
That's the voter turnout, IIRC
And of those, 52% voted Brexit
11:55
72.2% turnout
Which is a fairly small minority too
@Withnail I believe the 72% number is wrong because it's 72% of registered voters.
Which is not the same
As least, that's how I understood it
Perhaps I understood wrong :-)
user559633
UK population is what, 65mm? 72% is 46mm, 52% of that is 24mm, or 2mm more brits wanted out than to remain?
At any rate, 52% of 72% is still a minority
Also, I don't think asking questions about 'what does that actually mean for trade, jobs, immigration, blah blah blah", is 'unpatriotic', or indeed, in any way bad.
This is the problem with "yes/no"referendums. There is no "let's compromise" options that sit somewhere inbetween that both camps can live with
11:56
it might be a minority in the absolute sense, but if the other people couldn't be bothered to vote I have a hard time feeling sympathy if things don't "go their way"
@tristan also need to remember that the persons who have least to lose and most to gain voted for "leave"
DSM
DSM
There's something oddly unpleasant about people saying "X isn't a real Y" as code for "I don't like X". Can't quite put my finger on what's so distasteful about it. And this is true independent of whether any individual act by X is good or not.
user559633
@Carpetsmoker It's the problem of first-past-the-post setups
@Carpetsmoker that's right, but there's no other way to register voter turnout, really. It's the standard method.
user559633
@AnttiHaapala What's your point?
user559633
11:57
Why would you want someone to vote against his/her own interests?
those under 18 were disenfranchised completely :P
@tristan Yeah, first-past-the-post isn't great, but in this case there were only two options, so I don't see how it could have been organised any differently?
Unless more options would be added
user559633
People under the age of 18 typically have no idea how the world works
And people over 18 do?
@DSM That sounds like the No True Scotsman fallacy.
11:59
yes, they gain understanding about the world suddenly when they turn 18
(Imo, and hindsight is always wonderful, it should have been a 'here is the plan for leaving - ARE YOU SURE? Y/N') Not the vague "Shall we leave?" "Yes" "Wtf does this mean now then?"
user559633
Yeah, more options would be like "reject X, Y demands of the eu"
user559633
@AnttiHaapala yes, because that's what i meant
Like the age of 18 is some magic boundary after which wisdoms get bestown
user559633
so then at what age? either you can vote or not, so what's the magic number?
11:59
Perhaps weigh voted depending on age?
you have to pick a number somewhere. clearly 3 year olds shouldn't vote and clearly 50 year olds should be able to, 18 seems reasonable enough
user559633
Or is this a "a vote didn't turn out the way that i want, so i'm going to say the system is broken" thing
@enderland 50 year olds should be able to?
why?
because I believe in a country which has democratic processes
3-year-olds perhaps couldn't read any arguments...
12:00
@AnttiHaapala Neither can many Trump supports, I suspect...
user559633
Vote turned out the way that I like, with 2% margin: "thank god common sense prevailed"
Vote didn't turn out the way that I like: "2% is barely measurable and the system needs reform"
user559633
@Carpetsmoker Nor can Hillary supporters
@Carpetsmoker Trump's problem really isn't his stated policies being lame, it's his inability to articulate them and the fact that he's a tool that causes problems
his actual articulated policies are pretty standard republican platform stuff
I'm not a great fan of Clinton, but at least she has arguments that run deeper than "I'll just bomb ISIS" and such
user559633
@Carpetsmoker Oh, she voted for the Iraq war, so what makes you think she has a more comprehensive strategy?
12:02
@enderland It's like a much more extreme version it seems to me
@Carpetsmoker have you read his policies on his website? they are fairly reasonable there
user559633
Don't let your (well-founded) hatred of Trump turn into delusion that Hillary isn't garbage
@PM2Ring nice :)
@JonClements Thanks!
as it turns out above, tristan's logic is that because one is only a megalomaniac and her husband is "rapey", then it is better to vote for the other candidate who has both of these virtues :D
12:04
I am voting 3rd party unapologetically this election and wish more people would do so
as I said I would hate to have to choose between them.
so many people lament the candidates and then still vote for one of them
I like the whole US presidential debate - it makes the UK seem almost sane :p
DSM
DSM
I'm pretty confident the US will somehow manage to endure. My impression is that Europeans seem to think that the president matters more than he does, possibly because of their experience with monarchies.
user559633
12:07
@AnttiHaapala no, those were surface derisions
@DSM monarchies matter 0 here.
monarchs here are weaker than presidents in any presidential system, perhaps France has the strongest head-of-state in Europe...
but that's still behind the US president in terms of power
user559633
@AnttiHaapala if you're going to drag in bullshit politics into the room and then rationalize it with "what? it's a gaaaaaame ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)", then continue to take any opportunity to scoff at america, i'm not really going to bother building arguments
user559633
we will be fine. our system is meant to handle this setup.
12:09
@DSM I think that's not entirely true. While the monarchy in a constitutional monarchy (such as the UK) do have some power (we're ignore great wealth and other stuff) - they don't really have any form of real power. While a president can do - obviously, without support of congress/the senate it's somewhat crippled, but they still do
@JonClements well to be fair the official powers of the president and what they consistently do are fairly different
user559633
i suspect that people in europe are fed a steady stream of bullshit about what it's like to be in america by people that have no idea what the fuck they're talking about
5
presidential power creep is a real thing here
Umm... maybe we should drop this - we've hit a sore point with our beloved MTFL
user559633
12:11
it's not a sore point, it's just overwhelming tedious
besides - there's checks and balances in most systems anyway... so everything works out mostly good in the end
user559633
deal with nationalist parties rising up in your own country before casting stones
I normally don't engage in conversations like this because most Europeans are incredibly smug about how horrible America is and how their systems are perfect
user559633
seriously. the stats on america (e.g. HDI) are more telling of people on our extensive social nets and those not on them.
DSM
DSM
12:12
@AnttiHaapala: Europe has had centuries of experience with centralized leadership, during which the leader in question was a monarch. America had a much briefer existence under a king and didn't care much for it.
good morning
user559633
morning :)
@idjaw aye aye cap'n
o/
@tristan that's what I am working on!
12:15
morning everyone
made a desktop application in 2 days :|
Cabbage
DSM
DSM
@corvid: what framework, if you don't mind my asking?
why are all my fantasy football players getting injured
I don't know enough to find replacements!
user559633
cast healing potions. it's fantasy, no?
... (troll) ;)
12:18
@DSM Electron, which is probably the easiest by far
I have no clue how extensible it is
stackoverflow.com/a/40014602/4099593 Repeats the same details as in the main answer
dying-of-hunger cabbage
eat cabbage
12:34
need more rep to hit 10k....
@BhargavRao I don't have to, I'm eating arany galuska ;)
so many bad answers?
@enderland Are those bad answers or NAAs?
doing my part on delete voting :P
12:39
you'll never get to 10K being generous with your rep like that
true. I should go answer more blatant duplicates
;)
harvest those internet points
tis the season
@enderland How does Workplace fare (in terms of NAAs)?
@AnttiHaapala delightful:D
@BhargavRao we get a lot less blatant NAAs but I downvote a lot more "low quality" posts that are still answers
12:42
@enderland come mod on SO - it's awesome - don't have to do much :)
Typo or Cannot Reproduce Escaping to raw string in path - user2678074‎ - 2016-10-13 12:20:30Z
@idjaw you will get refunds if they get delved in time
@tristan when considering the USA, I'd just point out that my own opinions are based on 20 years in the country, 15 on the East coast and 5 on the West. And it's true that people who haven't spent time there don't really get the right impression from the media
@JonClements you guys probably can just delete things without worrying most of the time or decline, the NAA policy is pretty strict on SO compared to most other sites
@enderland Today, from morning we've detected like 150 NAAs. :D ... And those are only from the Late answers (10k page)
12:42
But then when did the media ever portray anything accurately?
@AnttiHaapala there is still a risk of not getting them for a long time.
@enderland wat?
@holdenweb I think that was on the Eleventeeth of Umptober
@BhargavRao a lot of the issues are a lot more complicated on non-SO sites I think too, it's harder to troll SO without being blatant, but anytime you have a "soft" site the line between trolling and advice is harder
it is very strict the other way
12:44
that's what I said ;-)
Some of the stuff on the Workplace ... man
@enderland once there was an answer that was really a poem that didn't even begin to answer anything...
I tagged it as a NAA and got declined.
"partial answer" they said.
stuff like that on Workplace gets downvoted and deleted by the community generally
that's just the usual "it might be seen as something that somebody might see as something that resembles an answer to a question somebody somewhere might have had or will have"
I've given up the NAA argument on SO though, that battle is lost and I will just downvote all the crap answers instead :P
@AnttiHaapala roomba
@BhargavRao ah true
@BhargavRao ah no, delv, it has a spam link
(spam flag was declined though)
the OP finally added their actual code
@BhargavRao fast roomba hah
> We have request to C# masters please advice and give your suggestions. We will also Give appreciation from our company.
I think that's Skeet-Man, master of the C#
By the power of Linq-skull!
12:49
bleh it's freezing out and I don't want to walk to work today
but I don't know if I want to bike, either
bike or motorbike :?:D
it's a chopper, baby
@enderland distance to work? Actual temperature?
also how many degrees is freezing
@AndrasDeak whose chopper is this?
@WayneWerner about 2.5 miles
12:49
it's Zed's
@AndrasDeak who's zed? zed a shaw?
@AnttiHaapala freezing... either 32F or 0C :P
Zed's dead, baby, Zed's dead. No, not that Zed. He's fine and well.
@enderland I thought it was metaphorical, here +7
12:50
:33458714 fly you fools
@AndrasDeak noooooooooo!
Why do I still mix up &lt; and &gt; after all these years? :-/
@enderland I'd grab a cup of hot chocolate and walk. A rather large cup
@enderland different franchise, I was talking about Doctor Who
@Carpetsmoker because you don't see < less than and > greater than as you're typing them
12:52
@Carpetsmoker think about "&lt;a&gt;" l-tag-t!
why do I still mix up left and right?
for some reason that reminds me of pineapplepen-applepen
thanks to whoever linked that yam in this room:P
rbrb. gotta make up my mind somewhere and might as well go for a brisk walk
@AnttiHaapala Hm, or "lower" before "greater"
@AndrasDeak don't you dare link that here
dammit
12:54
@Carpetsmoker los before gos?
it was already done
n0o0o0
yup...
I worked hard to get that song out of my head
and now it's back
What's a "los"? And what's a "gos"?
dunno, but the former are before the latter
12:55
Brothers of IOS
@idjaw it's not even a song
I've seen screenshots from pineapplepen but I haven't actually seen it
Maybe I should just find/write a Vim plugin which allows me to write <Leader>h< to insert &lt;
warning: earworm
12:56
Or something
@AndrasDeak ah, good ol' Rick Astley. So good
Cabbage
cabbage
Cabbage
cabbage

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