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17:19
because seriously...
who'd post "I am having this problem too", if the checklist said: "Please do not post I am having this problem too, they will be promptly removed"
I'm sure some people would.
user6568562
I couldn't ask for a better solution to my Amazon spending spree than getting recommendation of "Cracking Programming job interviews" books
statistics from bhargav's natobot :P tp being true positive [NAA]
user6568562
That's impressive. What does ne stand for ?
@AnttiHaapala Or, they can add a checkbox for "are you receiving this problem too?" and then it can be hidden away on the UI somewhere like Jetbrains voting button
17:26
@idjaw that was asked on meta too...
I'd rather let the 1 point users comment...
if they're registered.
and registration with captcha
@AnttiHaapala in general you mean? All 1 rep users can comment anywhere?
1 rep registered users
QUESTION! Do you guys think it's worth it to get a software engineering degree or would be better to just teach yourself and build a portfolio instead??
that pass captcha validation and add email
@willer2k depends on your age and where you want to work
but a lot of places are starting to realize that a university diploma is kind of a poor evidence
17:32
and really depends on everything
@AnttiHaapala Yeah I implied registered as well
I agree
26 now, want to work in software/app development
26 now, what have you done in ages 0-26?
Remember, Antti built a kernel at age 6. Choose wisely
17:33
Always been around computers, but no serious programming, just playful things
@idjaw no but before 26
I haven't built a kernel. Yet.
built some rudimentary websites and little things like that
me neither
it always interested me, though
@willer2k no: what else besides being around computers
17:34
e.g. work experience, hobbies, climbed Mt. Everest
oh, worked mostly in case management, customer service, auto shops and had a small used car dealership
had? as in you owned?
user6568562
@willer2k You can start with what is easily available. i.e Books and resources that introduce you to Programming and Computer Science.
FreeCodeCamp is an interesting resource. I wish they had a Python track, though :P
Does anyone know how good those online courses really are? Would that be a good recommendation here?
17:36
i did start learning on my own, but I am applying to waterloo university for software engineering, but is it worth the time and money?
Could be. How are you at self directing?
user6568562
Well, I'd stay away from every smiling blingy website that has "demy" in its name. But MIT Courseware is nice and serious. Also, you can buy textbooks. I find myself preferring them over "Learn X the awesome way"
@idjaw yeah, udacity's cs101 and cs202 are both awesome!
and free
@WayneWerner The most self motivated and persistent individual i know ;)
why didn't you go study software engineering before :D
user6568562
@AnttiHaapala Life is different for* everyone
user6568562
17:40
I couldn't study software engineering, nor any kind of engineering for that matter, because I had to focus on bread and butter
@AnttiHaapala to be honest, didnt think that this is want a wanted to do. So many options, how can I pick one so early in my life? haha
@randomhopeful naturally, but @willer2k asked whether or not the SE degree is waste of time
@AnttiHaapala so is it? Do employers care? Is the material even applicable in the real world?
if you were M.Sc. Engineering/Maths/Physics then most probably it would be waste of time
user6568562
@AnttiHaapala Yes. I did the good ol' projection switcheroo. I see it, now.
17:42
@AnttiHaapala M.Sc. is major in science?
master's degree
@willer2k That's a hard question to answer. You will find all kinds of different employers out there. You will find the many that do care, and the many that don't care
DSM
DSM
@willer2k: Waterloo is a good school with a good tech reputation. You can learn the stuff outside of the academic environment, of course, and half of us are working in fields we didn't officially train for anyhow! Unfortunately -- and I don't say I support this, but I think it's true -- lots of places like to see a degree involving numbers in some way. If you already have a broadly sciency degree then I don't know I'd clock four years in SE, personally, but situations are widely variable.
@willer2k here's a pretty interesting article about FreeCodeCamp medium.freecodecamp.com/…
DSM
DSM
The last pure dev I hired, I can't even remember what his degree was in, only that he had a lot of real-world programming experience and could talk code.
17:44
@willer2k so what is your education?
To add to what DSM said. A lot of employers that do care about education, see Waterloo in very high regard. It would be considered a prestigious university.
@willer2k those miracle children who didn't even finish college often started earlier
@AnttiHaapala None, got a high school equvalency, now just finishing up uni pre-requisites online :(
user6568562
True. While in college, they already had 15 +* years of experience in coding behind them
the degree in Finland is not important unless you're after a government position
but the skills are
17:46
The states are getting to be less important. You'll still find it listed or something like, "Or relevant professional experience"
the question is: at 26 years of age, can you study better alone from books than with direction :D
@willer2k did you enjoy running your used car business?
Would you say u learn faster in university or if you study hard on your own? Do universities teach you real-world material or just theories that you don't really use?
@WayneWerner horrible, dog eat dog world
It entirely depends on the person and the university.
@willer2k best universities teach thinking, not material
17:47
Most of what I learned in University was not, strictly speaking, about programming
@WayneWerner other dealers conspire against you in auctions and they throw each other under the bus allll the time
I'm self-taught, so I advocate that :-)
well, aside from the auto part of it
did you enjoy the business part of it?
I am self-taught as a software engineer, but I do have a M.Sc. degree
@WayneWerner absolutely loved it haha
17:48
I only understood why I learned most CS stuff in University well after the class was over.
Right, I'm university taught as a Physicist ...
because if you did, I'd recommend starting your own freelance software business
Pretty much everything web related I know was self taught during and after university. But I'd been programming since I was 11.
I'm not entirely self-taught.
DSM
DSM
@mgilson: I think there are at least five of us here with that background. :-)
17:49
Yeah, it works well.
@willer2k some college might not hurt you either...
I've been around computers since the Apple ][, and the Mac World or whatever magazines came with woodworking plans
@DSM Though -- I frequently miss the physics.
@davidism that right there. Actually I wanted more CS based stuff and less of the computer engineering stuff when I came to that realization as well
but I didn't start programming until 9th grade
took a couple of programming courses at the local tech college when I was 16
17:49
I started programming around 4th or 5th grade, or perhaps 3rd?
@DSM -- Your profile says you did Astrophysics, right?
@WayneWerner What do you do now if I may?
(Of course, I could just go look ...)
DSM
DSM
@mgilson: I miss the research side of things, and I miss the students a lot. I don't miss the politics, or the paycheque. ;-)
Yeah, planetary formation.
Yeah, exactly how I feel about it.
17:50
the hardest thing for me to understand was how can one "put numbers in letters"
@willer2k Software developer, working in Python(3, woo). Also with Postgresql
I'm also a freelance photographer :)
funny reading this from DSM and mgilson, because I'm always wondering how it would be if I wanted to pursue a career in teaching
@idjaw it's the big thing that annoys me looking back. UCSD has a great CS program overall, but the undergrad track could use much more of the science side.
@WayneWerner Did you get a software engineering degree?
DSM
DSM
@davidism: you reminded me of one of my favourites--
Mar 22 at 19:58, by DSM
Makes sense, they have CS right there in the centre.
17:53
I was going to :-|, but looks like I already did.
yeah, I went to uni for science
not for software engineering or computer science in particular
cabbage
I started in electrical....switched to computer hardware...graduated wanting to do software as my career choice
@idjaw you got softer over time :P
BA DUM TSS 🎶
user6568562
17:58
Yo Andras [ :
@AnttiHaapala but yes...yes, I guess you can say that.
Sep 16 at 13:58, by Antti Haapala
Thanks folks, I'll be here all week month year decade probably too long.
@willer2k Computer Science
There were a few things that I actually did learn in Uni, but I'd say I taught myself about 70% of things on my own
the other 30% I would have found if someone had just pointed me in that direction. Mostly dealing with pointers and grokking that abstraction
what I learned at the uni was to write and read, and to think more critically. And to never commit to do teamwork with people that I don't know.
^^
especially that last part
18:02
the software engineering part mostly sucked. Like, it was wrong. Right but wrong too...
but then I guess in some other university it could have been much better.
Yes, quite
The most important courses I had at university weren't CS
they taught waterfall wrong
the most important course that I had at the university was Introduction to Literature in English. It wasn't part of my Engineering degree though...
whaaaa?
Writing 101, because it taught me that essay comes from the French "essai" which just means to try, so literally if you try, you've written an essay (sure, it may not be a good essay...)
ah OK, not part of the curriculum
18:05
American History, not because of the subject matter but because it was one of my first critical thinking classes
I also took some cognitive science stuff for credit and fun
Philosophy, for taking that to another level
music appreciation, because it helped me to understand and appreciate different genres of music (though I still don't like R&B that much)
my first science course, because science
also taught me that despite what I believed, I can totally actually dissect a frog with no problems
(ironically, thinking about it still gives me the weeblies, but actually doing it was totally fine)
physics were also useful
linear algebra, because my professor taught us how to do proofs
oh, and "intermediate" algebra, because I learned how to math.
I actually felt more well rounded in my education in my two years of cegep (two years between high school and university) because there was such a variety of courses that allowed me to learn so many different subjects
my cs2 was probably my most important CS course
helped me grok pointers
Hello
18:10
hi
How r u
Doing great. Yourself?
*Urself
Am OK
thx
Ur-self is a wonderful linguistic joke
18:13
Gotta step away for a bit. Presentation
@Sino welcome:) Just a heads up: you can find the room rules in the top right corner, and some users might prefer that you full English words here:)
@AndrasDeak I would like to be moderator here, any advices ?
@Sino get 30k rep:)
you'll learn how things go by then (and probably lose all interest in moderating)
it's for free ?
no, it costs a damn lot of time
18:24
@Sino you don't get money for being a mod, if that's what you mean
I assume becoming a moderator here will work just like it did for 13-year-old me becoming a mod on a halo fansite: it'll make me less cool than I already wasn't.
Woop guys finished the thing
@corvid but what about the other thing?
Sup guys? Anyone ever use miranda-upnp as an import? :S
*to open a port
18:35
did all the things
☑️ all the things
I envy your succinct and completed todo list.
Doing the thing is my favorite
18:52
I think I am failing at basic trig again. Maybe rudimentary algebra. Given two points on a graph, how can you translate the first point to the second's position?
err, vector addition?
What do you mean by 'translate'? Calculate the distance?
Actually I think I figured it out, had to subtract the initial position of the original object to make it look like it was moving from origin point
user559633
@JoranBeasley that's exactly it -- it's a chance that a password change will help, unless you have reason to believe that there was a data breach or compromise of password security at some point.
For two points with vectors representing their positions, A and B, A-B will give you a vector from B to A, and vice-versa
19:02
@corvid your first failure in vectors is to assume that it has something to do with trigonometry
@AnttiHaapala what level of math is it supposed to be? Like high school algebra?
the last ones learnt that in mid-highschool here, yes... (if ever)
vector geometry
but I'm dumb at math
that's no excuse to be bad at math
19:05
my only real excuse is I never use it enough so always need to remember the terminology
@corvid then use some more:
you need to get euler than you are now
19:33
hmm ubuntu 1610 out
is that a good thing?
It's codenamed "Yakkety Yak", so I guess they disabled all error reporting to prevent talking back.
DSM
DSM
<davidism> :-|
I think I'm going to tie :davidism: to :-| in my keymapping. Even though it's longer to type, I think it's a good way to give credit where credit is due
19:43
The big mystery is what 17.10 will be called.
oh wait 16.10 did y
ah, wrapping?
it wrapped once in ancient days
They'll just add another spot, like spreadsheets do. Ubuntu Linux 17.10 Aaron A. Aaronson
Up there with "What codenames did Android 1.0 and 1.1 have?"
I'm going to go with Zesty Zebra
19:46
hoary->breezy->dapper was a bit gappy though
@idjaw that's for 17.04
@idjaw off by one error
hmm...usually they start naming one year in advance, so maybe there are hints?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
I can't get anything right
storms out
17.04 is still TBA :S
Should we tell him that's the broom closet?
19:48
Why is there a mop in here? Where am I?
user6568562
In the broom closet
Things aren't working out too well for me today.
user6568562
@idjaw Related to a single topic or many ?
20:04
tl;dr having static typing gave them the confidence and ability to upgrade to python3. And Zulip is a dropbox product, so that's big news
whatever makes them do the needful
Guys I have a really dumb question. What control structure is generally used if you have to run two for loops in a generator, but must run each for loop sequentially?
?
sequentially how? first deplete the first loop, then the second?
Can you just do two yield froms?
def some_generator():
  for (x in some_list):
    yield x
  for (y in a_different_list):
    yield y
20:09
or alternate?
will the second for loop run after the first for loop has run entirely to completion?
what are those parens in the for?
def some_generator():
    yield from some_list
    yield from a_different_list
@corvid yes
I think:P
Or itertools.chain
20:10
I can't really see any other reasonable option
and you can try for yourself:P
I'm getting weird results, but it is in javascript generators so that might be why...
Ah, there's your problem: javascript is not python
>>> def mygen():
...  for x in [1,2,3]:
...   yield x
...  for y in [4,5,6]:
...   yield y
...
>>> [k for k in mygen()]
[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
and yield from should be the idiomatic way to do the same
>>> def mygen2():
...  yield from [1,2,3]
...  yield from [4,5,6]
...
>>> [k for k in mygen2()]
[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
there
In [1]: import itertools

In [2]: [k for k in itertools.chain([1,2,3], [4,5,6])]
Out[2]: [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
This isn't the js room but if you have a short js snippet I'll look at it
[k for k in [1,2,3]+[4,5,6]] ;)
20:17
@randomhopeful just my silliness :P
@AndrasDeak I would love a real Lego cup that would be useable for coffee
DSM
DSM
[k for k in stuff] is just list(stuff)..
@idjaw I'd be concerned about its practical utility:)
although dropping it would be epic
@DSM :davidism:
It's been the fifth time today that I read "Natobot" as nanobot on the starboard...
You're just list(stuff)
user6568562
@idjaw Silliness is something I know about [ : Hang on, buddy
Can someone help me understand the filed-list in flask wtf? stackoverflow.com/questions/39985344/…
20:29
*field :)
Cabbage Everyone :)
cbg
what does cbg stand for
cbg
@HollyJohnson please read the page with the room's rules, and find out:P
user559633
20:34
cbg
Canadian
cbg
user6568562
Yo tristan [ :
sorry, what was that about Canadian?
user559633
20:34
canadian bacon greetings
@idjaw your face
Canadian bacon is an abomination
Isn't canadian bacon just thinly-sliced ham
yes
but it's the fact the word bacon is in there that makes it the abomination
user559633
20:35
@HollyJohnson we only use cabbage/cbg, rhubard/rbrb, and yam
user6568562
I feel we should add a disclaimer to the salad language page
ham is good
but I can see that calling it bacon might be blasphemous
That Americans believe Canadians call bacon, for some reason
user559633
you don't make friends with salad (language)
20:35
20 secs ago, by tristan
you don't make friends with salad (language)
except Fizzy ^
garlic is occasionally used
user559633
@HollyJohnson ha, sorry, wasn't reprimanding you, just more saying "you don't need to memorize that whole list of nonsense"
user559633
oh yeah, garlic comes up a lot around start/end of college semesters
Guys does printing a new line char with python on linux work the same as windows ?
20:36
just cabbage, rhubarb, and garlic pretty much
Because It doesn't work for me
yam, occasionally
@AnisSouames "it doesn't work"
this is sooo not your first time here
could've fooled me ;)
user6568562
And if you're wondering what yam is actually about, the yams is the power that be
20:38
the Peaches love the Salad . You Green Beans are Pineapples
@Andras : Sorry , well I'm using file.write("\n sometext") On win it works and print a new line, on linux it doesn't and everything is on the same line .
The file is a text file opened with "append" mode
I'd expect the opposite to be true
yup, carriage return alert
@AnisSouames is the file opened in text mode?
@Andras what do u mean by text mode ?
Well what do I mean?
20:40
Just open the file in something besides Notepad.
user559633
Whenever I see Peaches, I think of Peaches the artist. Head's up: probably hilariously NSFW audio on any song you find on youtube.
> In text mode, the default when reading is to convert platform-specific line endings (\n on Unix, \r\n on Windows) to just \n. When writing in text mode, the default is to convert occurrences of \n back to platform-specific line endings. This behind-the-scenes modification to file data is fine for text files, but will corrupt binary data like that in JPEG or EXE files. Be very careful to use binary mode when reading and writing such files.
@davidism My bad guys, it works now with sublime text .
guess the source -------------------------------------------------------------------------------^
Let me just stretch a bit farther.
20:42
@tristan I think of princess Peach, which is interesting since she wasn't part of my childhood
I think of Seinfeld
I think I watched too much Seinfeld
im a peach >.< and i get no attention
user559633
I'm going to have "(yam) the pain away" stuck in my head for a month now
I could post pineapplepen-applepen if you want @tristan to make that song quickly go away
20:43
Actually, we pronounce it "tomato" in here.
user559633
@idjaw hu-what...
@AndrasDeak wasn't part of my childhood either
@tristan oh dude...I'm so jealous you don't know what I'm talking about
nor anyhood, for that matter:P
@AndrasDeak ... because everyone just knew her as Princess Toadstool...
20:44
@tristan "pineapple pen" in google. that is all.
it's sfw
@AnttiHaapala how so?:D
@idjaw is it?
@AndrasDeak surname
user559633
@idjaw that's okay. if you're jealous that i have no idea what it is, i'm not going to willingly bring it into my life
I'd fire my hires for introducing that into a safe working environment
"How does concatenation work"
_UNH_
20:45
I've fallen into that limbo of "too early to go home and too late to start working on this next thing".
> In Japan, the Princess's name has always been Peach (ピーチ姫 Pīchi-Hime, Princess Peach) since her debut in the original Super Mario Bros. (1985), but she would go on to be renamed Toadstool in the English language manual.
@AnttiHaapala I think you've already explained this to me but I can't remember. I'll try diggng up the transcript
@AnttiHaapala aaaah, then no, at least I don't remember
@davidism Documentation time!
interesting:D
@QuestionC what, and be productive?
20:46
@davidism hammer a dozen flask questions
@tristan good choice. good choice.
user559633
metroid was better anyway :)
^^
user6568562
Princess Peach always looked weird to me, I mean she has sideburns. You can't unlook it
20:47
NO
SMB3 is still the best. video. game. ever.
Document other people's stuff. It's how you kill Job Security programmers.
user559633
super mehrio brothers 3. they included warp whistles in that game because even the developers got bored of the levels
user6568562
I raise you a thousand blue fighting a thousand red in AOE II edit mode
user559633
get off my lawn
:33470691
metroid was better
20:48
ha
I don't know what's happening with that reply thing. But I apologize if you just got pinged several times for that Antti :)
@idjaw you need to put it on the same line as the image url, it will still work
I've never seen all of these strange spellings for Zelda, what language is that from?
user559633
Legend of Zelda is also an acceptable choice for a favorite.
@idjaw not even once
20:51
My favoritest game of all time, though, is Braid.
user6568562
I don't remember Zelda sending you elephants every time you build a wall
user559633
BRB, coding up Super Fabio Brothers 3
The original Zelda was supposed to be a dungeon editor, believe it or not
user559633
I choose not to believe it.
@tristan complete with a dodge-the-bird rollercoaster level?
It's a post-truth society, do what you want
20:52
I'm pretty sure Flappy Bird is newer than that
user559633
I don't get that reference.
I know enough about flappy bird that I don't want to know that reference
The Fabio Brother
user6568562
Is he made of rectangles ?
I'm pretty sure he's made of hair and romance novels
20:54
and not believing it's not butter
user559633
homeboy is seriously incredulous about margarine
Super Fabio Brothers - now with more hair and margarine
user559633
I'm sorry Fabio, but the butter is in another castle.
"I can't believe this liquid spray isn't butter!"
There actually was an NES game about a guy who used his fabulous hair to kill people.
20:57
im a Green Bean who is Peas whould you Pears Asparagus my Beans. Ill give you lots of melons.
plot twist: it's Medusa
user6568562
@AndrasDeak Haha : D Nice
user559633
times that i hope no one asks me what I'm giggling about += this moment
Aren't you making a startup? So it's only you?
and the cat
20:59
the cat is very judgy
user559633
at a coffee shop, which means fabio is on display

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