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16:00
@davidism that's a good link to give them :)
Any other comments? (@poke you came in late but we can always come back to it later in AOB or something if you get chance to read through the transcript)
3. Create a Trash room specific to Python, so that we can “untrash” stuff.
Suggested Python Trash room name: The Rotating Knives.
DSM
DSM
Can we even do that?
@ZeroPiraeus that was my first question :)
I like this idea. As long as it's obvious that tis not a real chat room.
@DSM all the trash rooms are just normal rooms, so I assume so?
16:02
Yeah, I was going to create a room
Make the ROs here ROs there so they can migrate messages back?
We room-closed that earlier, OP came back and edited their decorator.
I'm not happy with the current trash rooms, they don't have a good description and we don't control them
So yeah, I was going to create a room with the same owners, with a good description of why the message was moved.
@davidism as in, stuff can't be moved back?
16:03
I think it needs the word "Trash" (or similar) in there somewhere. So maybe "Python Trash - The Rotating Knives" ?
I think we all agree it's a good idea? I mostly brought it up here so we'd all be aware of it.
I see no harm in giving it a go
16:05
OK, I'll create it and pin it after the meeting.
It'll also be handy as we'll have a log of stuff we've decided to move out... and it'll be easier to at a glance see what we're moving, and look back on moved messages for why/any previous moves occurred...
Exactly
+2 - let's go for it
4. Events feature. Making use of it and possible ideas?
I agree that we under-utilise the feature, and it'd be nice to do some more with it.
Burninationfests?
DSM
DSM
16:07
Are there really a lot of potential events?
Yeah, I wanted to get some suggestions of things to do. The events show up on the chat page and make us more visible.
@ZeroPiraeus I'd rather have "fun" "nice" things :)
Some random thoughts... code sprints / planned tag clean ups (let's not invited David though - we know what happens there :p) / the JS room seems to have events for competitions (how's that working @BenjaminGruenbaum)
See, based on our 1st item on the agenda :P, what do people think about closing events? I don't mean closing new Qs, but rather going through old content that may need to be closed but isn't getting attention.
@JonClements it worked very well for 2-3 months but then it sort of stopped working - we're planning to discuss it when we have a meeting on Saturday.
Or trying to burn down the close vote queue for instance (focusing on Python tags)
16:08
coding challenges, python golf :d
It can be all sorts of things: "let's work on sopython together", "watch me livestream making a Flask program", etc.
@Ffisegydd how about since there's already a closing room - we focus on more neglected content - and have a re-open event?
@davidism Ooh, a "SOPython Presents" series of livestreams sounds kinda cool.
DSM
DSM
"Today, we're going to learn about how einsum can simply your code!"
16:10
SOTV :)
DSM
DSM
[I'll ask later whether anything happened with that.]
Excuse me one second, puppy need wee wee
@davidism SOPyTV - has a much more (cough) grown-up feel ...
What about code review events?
DSM
DSM
16:12
Of sopython or of random packages?
Both/Either?
I think it's more helpful to see code written than to see code reviewed
So far from people I have:
Livestreams
Code sprints
sopython event
Tag clean ups
Tag wiki clean ups
Burnination
JS competitions
Close/reopen events
Python golf
Code review
"What choice should I make" is at the least more engaging, if not more educational, than "Why did that choice get made."
@Ffisegydd "let's make a canonical question"
16:14
Yeah definitely.
Oh yes nice :-)
where we pick an under-represented / not-satisfyingly detailed dupe and clean it up / create one.
Vote rings ...
pokes in late on item 3
Where did the rotating knives name come from?
Monty Python skit apparently.
Zero did link it.
I figured it was just something that can easily chop cabbage....
Can only ROs make events?
We could put together a wiki post where people can suggest things/we can plan out future ones.
(My answer to everything today has been "make a wiki post" :3)
@ZeroPiraeus name approved! :-P
DSM
DSM
16:17
I like the canonical question suggestion. During this meeting, I saw yet another "missing return in a recursive function", which I know Kevin and I have discussed in the past. We could either write a new one or edit a good existing one into perfection.
Another event: dupe target hunt (simiar to canonical Q creation but more about filling out canon list)
Only ROs can create events, but others can ping us if they want to suggest something.
@Ffisegydd Shouldn't that be more - review the quality of dupes suggested by nidaba? :p
What time of day is convenient for people?
@Ffisegydd it can be any time, let's leave it up to who's running each event
16:20
I don't mind staying up a bit late in the evening so they could be in US evenings too.
Saturdays work better.
Alright cool.
@Ffisegydd given the spread of TZs - this time - we probably don't want to suggest weekends... and everyone gets bored at work, surely? :p
@JonClements we do want to suggest Saturdays. I just did. :-P
16:21
@Martijn okay we - 1? :p
Okay. I will (or someone else can if they want to volunteer) put together a starting wiki page and we can start getting ideas ready/plan the first few.
@Ffisegydd I’ll read it up later, and may end up comments afterwards. Don’t have the time to keep up at the moment… (meh)
Sorry…
@poke no worries mate :(
Okay, unless there's anything else let's move onto 5.
5. Do we have enough RO coverage between midnight and 6am – if not, should we be concerned about it?
This is something that's been brought up before.
... by which we mean 00:00 - 06:00 UTC, right?
^ My impression from the past is that there is surprisingly little activity during European nighttime, so there is not really any need for further RO activity
DSM
DSM
16:23
Is this motivated by things which have happened or just looking out for potential difficulties?
I think it's still ok, in fact I've seen less participation during that time then the last time this was brought up.
Unfortunately we can't guarantee an RO will always be on :( (as @Antti found out the other weekend) but if you do need something then you can ping me and I'll probably answer if it's during the European day (at least).
We all seem to have weird hours at some point that overlap.
Yeah... just thought I'd raise it again...
There's either no-one about so it doesn't matter... or once or twice been a lot happening with no intervention
I am around moderately often until 0300ish, and sometimes through the meridianish night.
16:24
@davidism Yeah, very weird ones. I remember Jon coming online before I went to bed at some days…
but since it's mostly the former, I'm not overly worried...
Are we happy with the number of ROs in general? (Not just WRT timezones)
And our timezones are one hour apart :P
(plus I have strange hours... so sometimes I'm about during those hours anyway)
@Ffisegydd 1 in 3 seems to be a fairly reasonable ratio...
Alright, cool.
7. Room language
16:26
Salad.
DSM
DSM
I think we can move on, as poke just won this conversation.
(7? Was there some item added in between?)
People have to use Salad with propa grammer and puntuation though .
but not spelling obviously ^^^? :p
DSM
DSM
16:27
I for one deplore the recent additions to Salad of words which actually make sense as metaphors. This goes against the whole history of the Salad language.
But on a more serious side: English and salad are our main languages. Greetings or single words e.g. are not a problem in other languages, but people should chat in a way that doesn’t exclude other participants.
I've backed off a bit on complaining that people can't type. But I think we do need some standard level of communication skills for posts made here.
I think if someone is not able to spell well enough so that people can understand them, people will point them out automatically.
A lot of this is going to come down to taste. I imagine we'll get solid consensus on SHOUTING, but for me, it seems a little unfair to pick on e.g. spaces before periods now that we know it's a result of a widely-used English text in India.
I don’t think we need an actual “rule” for that.
Common sense.
16:29
I think if people's posts are so bad that they're illegible then just ask them to try to make more effort. It's not easy as for a lot of people English isn't their mother tongue.
If new users come in with txt spk, poor grammar/spelling, etc., it's hindering at least my ability to communicate with them.

The English Language

Communication skills are important. Stack Overflow is an Engl...
Come on guys...one final gong...
Before the meeting is over and rules come into effect ;_;
I actually ended up creating a room to invite people to so that I could explain what they were doing incorrectly.
16:30
@Ffisegydd g... g...
And so it ends, not with a gong, but a whimper.
3
I feel like I got too aggressive about it, but being able to write correctly is just as important to me as being able to code correctly.
DSM
DSM
I'm not sure this is a big enough issue to address yet, frankly.
@DSM the problem is that I'll mention to a user after a few messages "you need to work on this", they'll say "ok", then continue on without changing
Let common sense prevail. There's no harm pointing it out to someone, after all they may take it on board and then you've taught them English as well as programming :D
16:33
I find poor grammar, spelling, punctuation etc. irritating, but I think we need to make allowances. Sentences spread out three words per line and txtspk must die though.
DSM
DSM
If "this" is "improve the quality of your English", I'm not sure that's really addressable. If it's someone who knows better but is deliberately typing in l33t, that's a separate issue.
And if it's so bad that they can't be understood, then tell them they can't be understood and if they keep on posting messages that are incomprehensible and it's clogging the room then kick them.
l33t speak should die unless it's used ironically (in small amounts :P)
@ZeroPiraeus I agree, it's the one word messages, the ... spaced out ... messages
@davidism
I know you really hate it
When people type messages over many lines
And don't edit
And I agree.
DSM
DSM
It's also worth noting that one of our regulars freely confesses he has terrible spelling, bad enough that I was convinced he was based in Europe and English was his second or third language.
16:35
the ROs aren't perfect, but there's still a clear difference between how we and many of the regulars type versus how random users do
@davidism s/ro/RO
s/ro/RO/, must type the substitution correctly
DSM
DSM
"ro" is the monetary unit of Oman. I was assuming that's what he was referring to. [Oh, wait. That's a capitalized abbreviation too..]
s = s.capitalize() + '.'
DSM
DSM
(Stupid crossword trivia! Never comes in handy like you hope.)
16:38
Right. Anything more on this? If not, AOB.
AOB1. I've spoken to inspectorG4dget via email, both him and his mum are fine. She's been back in for surgery and he's still in India taking care of her.
lol i lived through whatever headcold i had on friday .... and even though i got a build no one uploaded after qa vetted it .... so glad i stayed ...
So should we use flawless English?
what is winter meeting
@Ffisegydd which is great news
For those who were unaware, his mum had a stroke before Christmas.
16:39
wat iz winter meating
thus I need to stay silent
That is all for AOB1.
Any other Any Other Business?
also winter meeting is too europe-centric :P
@Ffisegydd can you shoot me with a link to the meeting's room? (I always forgot the name of that SO-like-chat)
16:40
It is summer here
@PM2Ring would disagree
DSM
DSM
@PeterVaro: this is the winter meeting.
@Peter we've had it in here :P
(+ I will be on phone, but I will be there :))
is it over?
@Peter you've already missed it :)
16:40
Almost :P
@Ffisegydd I have an AOB2!
@Jon go for it.
It regards @tristan and @Peter - how about time-keeping? :p
DSM
DSM
16:41
?
AOB3. @DSM did you wanna remove some Salad terms you think are clogging up the lexicon?
DSM
DSM
For AOB I was going to bring up a "let's avoid clever snarky comments on questions we're about to gong into oblivion" suggestion, but that's already been covered.
what about hv's ... I think sometimes its funny. .. sometimes its annoying?
whats wrong with snarky comments ... its a good day when SO makes coffee come out my nose :P
Snarky/witty comments are okay in chat I think.

 Python Ouroboros - The Rotating Knives

Messages from the Python room that didn't meet our standards o...
16:43
Obviously, we can't make anyone do anything, and so if they do wanna leave snarky comments they can do.
No ... I didn't have a serious AOB2... besides, we've over-run by 40 mins...
DSM
DSM
@Ffisegydd: naw, me and the other fellows of l'Académie de la Salade will just mutter in the corner.
@Ffisegydd why are we talking about this over and over again, when at the end we always come up with the same conclusion?
I do think some of the newer "words" need to be removed
They're not salad related
@Peter it was basically brought up again to remind people.
16:44
@davidism Can we move HVs to the trash and tell them they will get answers there?
@davidism you just don't like "Malevolent Editor For Life"
if this is an issue, we should do something, if we can't (I think that is the case) I think we should avoid it putting back as one of the agenda
DSM
DSM
@BhargavRao: that doesn't seem productive.
@Ffisegydd I see..
(I'm still reading back)
@BhargavRao no, please leave dealing with vampires to us
16:45
hi @PeterVaro
@Ffisegydd I think it's over, want to call it?
Yeah. Meeting over. Go forth and teach Salad to the peoples of the Earth.
I propose a salad fork: Green Salad for purists, and Fruit Salad for those who don't mind mixing it up a bit.
heya @Vader :)
"Salad fork" is probably the best pun I've ever heard in this room.
16:47
@ZeroPiraeus get out the pitch forks, there should be only One True Salad.
DSM
DSM
Although that language may not be obvious at first unless you're English.
People in other countries eat salad with tridents?
@ZeroPiraeus in hungarian pronouncing sopy == blow job => so that is definitely a grown-up feel TV :)
@davidism I broke sopython D:
sopython.com/transcript/3/update "500 Internal Server Error"
(well, if you pronounce it as "e" instead of "i")
DSM
DSM
16:49
Time to get some work done. Post-meeting rhubarb for all!
Thanks for coming everyone.
@Ffisegydd were you trying to put the links in for the transcript?
We should come up with witty error pages
I was.
I thought you put message ids in?
Just put the message id, nothing else
I'll have to look at the log if it's failing, hold on
16:51
21596212 and 21599173 are the message ids
@room-owners use The Rotating Knives to trash messages from now on
5
@IntrepidBrit sopython.com/canon2 not exactly the wittiest.
It'd probably do
;)
One of my few contributions to the sopython-site source code :P
16:52
I'm sure everyone will join in me thanking @Ffisegydd for being a brilliant host (again)
10
I was thinking of having some hilarious cabbageman memes for a 404
@Intrepid issue a PR :P photos probably should be non-copyrighted though.
404 Cabbage Not Found
ought to be like that
@davidism weren't we going to put a prefix on that title?
Python Trash Can - The Rotating Knives
@MartijnPieters that's a working title, we're all owners there
I put trash first in the description
16:54
But people may join and be confused. I'd say we should be explicit.
So if I speak here, does it mean I didn't follow the rules - umpph....
Sure, but rather than end up in a roll-back war I thought I'd check for consensus first.
@Ffisegydd found the error, I was too clever with parsing the message stars
1 message moved from Python Trash - The Rotating Knives
Umm... doesn't quite appear to work as planned
@Jon I missed it, what did you do?
16:55
Annnnd we've successfully removed Kevin from the Star board. Truly, a victory for all mankind.
4
It's inserted in the right place in the transcript.
It works, the message is at the correct timestamp
According to the message timestamp, not the time of the move.
ahhh... yes... good point... my bad
That's quite funky... +10 @davidsm :)
17:01
@AnttiHaapala 406 Not Acceptable (Not finding Cabbage is)
@poke ahh... it takes deep devotion and spiritual strength for one to find The Cabbage :p
Where did those titles come from?
I don’t remember being asked to nominate or vote for someone
They're jokes :P
I know mine is a reference to those "edits" I made.
Uhuh?
Ha I never saw that last comment on your answer there.
17:32
That was a fun day
It is pure brilliance how for loops can have an else part, never forget that.
I found that out recently, never used it though
while and try blocks can have them too
^^damn, what other tricks does python have.
def ace_in_hand(self):
    for card in self.hand:
        if card.face == 'Ace':
            return True
    else:
        return False
without the else block this would be much longer
return any(card.face == 'Ace' for card in self.hand)
user2555451
17:40
You actually do not need the else. Just put the return False where the else is.
- _ -
Ahh, very true
even better
This is my favorite Python trick:
It really works, try it!
Does it just open this image again?
Hmm, maybe your interpreter is outdated.
but you dont want to know if any ace is in the hand ... you actually want to klknow how many
im assuming this is for blackjack
17:43
I can manage to hover about 6 inches off the ground for a minute.
I want to know if there is one in general
simply knowing an ace is in the hand is insufficient
because ace can be high and low
just a heads up your going to have to change it later
what if there are 2 aces in the hand?
@JoranBeasley We'll see
17:44
@davidism Now I understand that image… wow.
hehe ok ... you should really just trust me on this :P
I think you might be right
but learning the hard way tends to give you the best memory
I never considered that case because it has never happened
trust me it will
17:45
Yeah, I realize this now
atm I am just checking if the user has already lost
while score > 21 and aces_left > 0:
score -= 10
aces_left -= 1
8 king and ace could be win or lose, that's what I am checking for
@poke it was a very interesting thing to wake up to
@JoranBeasley you don't need to show me, I will (maybe) be able to solve it on my own
@davidism You did it before going to bed? Good job. xD
17:48
@poke oh how we laughed when someone came in trying to find him... oh how we chuckled... :p
hmhm
@Vader if you were like the 1 noob, then you'd be asking "how do I create AI for blackjack" :D
Thankfully this AI is simple
while points < 17:
    hit()
yeah but does bank hit or stand on soft 17
17:56
that's pretty much the strategy of the entire game
also remember hit()
hit will not do anything
@AnttiHaapala what?
hit is a function, hit() calls the function.
about the soft 17?
yes
@AdamSmith Yes, It was a simple, error. That's only psuedo code
17:58
most blackjack tables let the dealer hit on "soft" 17, e.g. A-6
But must stand on "hard" 17 e.g. J-7
oh right
that adds a whole new layer of complexity
Blackjack, also known as twenty-one, is the most widely played casino banking game in the world. Blackjack is a comparing card game between a player and dealer, meaning that players compete against the dealer but not against any other players. It is played with one or more decks of 52 cards. The object of the game is to beat the dealer, which can be done in a number of ways: Get 21 points on the player's first two cards (called a blackjack), without a dealer blackjack; Reach a final score higher than the dealer without exceeding 21; or Let the dealer draw additional cards until his or her hand...
while points < 17 or points==17 and aces_in_hand():
    hit()
sorry that link had #hash

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