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3:00 PM
One of the best scenes in all the books.
 
Ok. Might as well begin without the circle then.
 
I couldnt find the triple circle
 
◎ will this do?
 
3:01 PM
I'll nominally chair but might have to randomly disappear if supervisor comes in, if I'm not moving things along/replying then just move on without me.
 
At least we don't have anyone go did you say Unique and Supreme Lodge of the Cabbage, and Sorry, wrong society..
 
Starting with 1.
 
I've been delaying close-vote requests a little, to see if anything is happening before calling in the mob.
 
Yeah that's the main issue.
It's been raised by more than one person that sometimes it could appear that we're a mob.
 
To keep this limited to the non-obvious cases. Posts that are older and won't be getting the regular fresh-post attention, for example.
 
3:04 PM
Closing questions nearly instantly. In general, this isn't a bad thing if the question really needs to be closed.
 
Better to have a bad question closed quickly than have it accumulate bad answers and rude comments and downvotes.
 
I agree.
 
DSM
I don't know what the real stats are, but it feels like most of our CVs are either (1) Flask, which we have a proprietary interest in, or (2) stuff which would be closed anyway.
 
also it does not get the bad answers before it is fixed
 
@DSM (3) LinkedIn posts, some regulars are standing in for LinkedIn devs to keep that mess under control.
 
3:06 PM
I try to keep Flask clean, so that's why there's a lot of requests from that corner. Usually I'll just post stuff that didn't get addressed by the op since the previous day.
 
the problem is ofc that reopens should be as swift :D
 
DSM
@MartijnPieters: true, I'd forgotten about those, but those seem to have dropped off a little lately (could just be my room hours.)
 
Nah, we've been a little quieter about that lately.
 
there should be some system to follow up if a question is edited after closing
 
@DSM There was a new spate as LI made another 'well-thought-out' business decision to cut of most of their API users. But we are digressing.
 
3:07 PM
@Antti ideally that'll be something that, eventually, a dedicated webpage on sopython.com could fix. We could have a page that monitors cv-pls requests and if something has been edited since being closed, is flagged for re-looking at
 
@AnttiHaapala you mean like a tracker to notify us if they edit their post?
 
yeah
bc they will go to reopen queue but ppl there might not be as knowledgeable
 
I'm here...
 
I'm working on it, I've got an api/websocket/chat client in development.
 
DSM
Wouldn't some constructive laziness be in order? Is it really such a negative if a bad question sticks around for ten minutes?
 
3:08 PM
just worrying that the question wouldn't be reopened if it needed
 
So we can have it watch questions we vote to close, to see what happens to them for a couple days.
 
Could automatically stagger close vote requests notifications to specific people :P
 
duplicates should be closed outright at least
 
typo's should be closed the fastest
 
Agreed, duplicates are a special case.
 
DSM
3:09 PM
Okay, dups are a good example where fast action would be warranted.
 
@DSM I kinda agree. We close questions so fast sometimes that the edit grace period isn't even over (I know that OPs should have their Q perfect in advance, but we have to be realistic). And we're probably slower at re-opening than closing. Maybe asking that we let the Q have a grace period (say 5-10 minutes) unless they're typo/dupe.
 
DSM
Although it's sometimes easy to point at the wrong dup when the question is ambiguous or the OP is making multiple mistakes.
 
That gives the OP time to edit their Q, also gives people time to comment on it and hopefully for the OP to reply.
 
@davidism I'd be against an automated tracker. We're not The Closing Room, and the more we buld systems for managing that stuff, the more it appears that we're self-appointed police.
 
DSM
Isn't there already a closing room?
 
3:10 PM
Yup.
 
the mjölnir is especially problematic with dupes :D
martijn closes with the wrong dupe sometimes too fast, then need to wait him to reopen
 
@Zero but we'd close things anyway. Shouldn't we think about having something in place so we can re-open when a user has gone back and made a better Q through edits?
 
Yeah, I'm not making it for this room/sopython, I'm making it as a standalone app, I just happen to hang out here.
 
@AnttiHaapala I try not to.
 
I have a list of well-used dupes which I'm going to start populating the canon list with by the way.
 
3:12 PM
But we do have a vested interest in the Python tag being clean and helpful.
 
So we're all sort of converging on one point, which is that we need to have some rules about what cv-pls request we want, somewhat like the rules we have about what questions may be posted here.
 
I do think that that's a good function for this room, to apply experience in gardening the tag.
 
I'd rather handle it by promoting responsible room culture. I don't do this (much) either, but given how quickly Qs can get closed from here, one could argue there's a responsibility to hang around and see whether OP makes improvements.
 
@ZeroPiraeus usually I see one or two of us hang around questions that could realistically be improved
 
Yeah I see your point re. better culture.
Sorry, back.
 
3:15 PM
for example the "offtopic, resource"
 
What we need to avoid is posting not-so-helpful, or at least poorly worded, comments as everyone jumps on the link.
 
I like the idea of a 5-10 minute grace period. But first, put a comment on the question to ask the OP to clarify, add code / traceback / sample data, etc.
 
On the subject of which – gong was funny for a while, but I think it's encouraging the FCITW thing when what we want is for people to make a calm, reasonable decision.
 
If you don't feel like posting a completely serious response, don't post.
 
DSM
There are lots of non-sopython users who are perfectly capable of sorting through a bad question if they have a chance, and we don't use our collective power to slow the process.
 
3:16 PM
@Ffisegydd can you organize which subtopic we're talking about? We should focus on one bullet point at a time.
 
@Zero are we sure that's the case... I probably only agree with half the votes posted here... no one's forcing to me to vote, nor should everyone agree with the ones I post... make up your own mind... we're all individuals
 
Let's sort out when/how to call out cv-pls, first.
 
At least one other person has directly told me that they feel like they're in a race to get into the list of closers at times.
 
@ZeroPiraeus Agreed, the Gong makes the whole job of gardening look like a race to beat everyone else at the expense of paying attention.
 
My idea was to treat cvs similar to how we treat new questions posted here.
 
3:17 PM
Can I suggest definite dupes should definitely be called out, as we have a lot of hammer holders here, so we certainly don't want those clogging up noise and garnering 5/6 answers within minutes
 
How about this: A 10 minute grace period before we post cv-pls unless it's a typo/dupe/spam/offensive post. That 10 minute period gives the OP time to edit, and also gives people time to comment.
 
We don't allow most new questions because the rest of SO will see those as well, and can identify if they should be closed just as easily.
 
@JonClements New users may not have understood that.
 
DSM
I wish there were a "pause while we find the dup" hammer.. ah, well.
 
Dupes and typos are particularly specific to our tag, and are easier for us to identify than others, so we should focus on that.
 
3:19 PM
(My supervisor has gone home so I should be here for the rest of the meeting now)
 
@DSM yeah, that'd also help with the Martijn closed to the wrong dupe post.
 
@Martijn okay... how about we break up [tag:cv-pls] and make it more explicit for the cases it's urgent
 
Sometimes it is such an obvious dupe and I already can hear the low-quality answers being pounded in around the world.
 
10 minutes is too much. Lesser interval for more experienced users?
 
Lets set it at 10 minutes and evaluate.
 
3:19 PM
@BhargavRao no, like I said, others are watching the site
 
Yeah. It should definitely be one time for all people. Let's start with 10 and see how it goes?
 
many low quality posts already have 3 or 4 votes by the time you post them here
 
I don't feel like I have a handle on what kinds of posts I am going to ask for assistance on.
 
DSM
Someone who's just posted a question often doesn't even reply to the first comment for five minutes. I think we overestimate how easy the back-and-forth is for newcomers.
 
A thought: except for dupe/offensive etc., how about we start with something like , calling people to look at the post, comment constructively and see if we can help OP improve it?
 
3:21 PM
I wish there were a "Please don't post an answer until the OP responds to the comments & improves the question" ... but I guess that's the function of putting questions on hold.
 
Typos/dupes (asking for suggestion for dupes if you have a hammer but don't know the dupe)/spam/offensive/*truly awful*
 
good timing @tristan :-/
 
@tristan some timing there, did you read the log around your entry? :-P
 
3:21 PM
:D
 
user559633
@davidism :)
 
Also, bash is not exactly low-traffic.
To me it feels that that link is OT for this room.
 
user559633
reviewing now, forgot my work ID, so I'm late to the GM :[
 
@tristan that's just as well... the alligators haven't been fed in a while... thanks for volunteering :p
 
We've always allowed non-Python questions, low-traffic or not, should we change that?
 
3:23 PM
I think "should be Python-related unless spam/offensive" is a reasonable rule.
 
user559633
@JonClements my meat would be all stringy :)
 
yeah, although maybe linkedin is a special case, we need some entertainment ;)
 
user559633
Agreed on linkedin.
 
@Ffisegydd I think we should. I feel we are the Python community and part of the task of this room is to keep that tag clean.
 
user559633
That's just chemotherapy before the tumors grow into our tags.
 
3:24 PM
@tristan LinkedIn is too low traffic to otherwise get the attention.
 
If our goal is improving SO, it's reasonable that we only call attention to Qs that we can expect people here to have enough expertise in to make the call.
 
@Ffisegydd umm... I've never had issues with tool related questions... but the "I have a <insert language> question" - "Have you tried the <insert language> room" - "Yeah, but no one was there, so I thought I'd come here" frustrates me slightly though :)
 
And of course burninating?
 
DSM
If it's too low traffic, it can't be that much of a problem..
 
if you want to focus on other tags, go to the close votes room, they have a much better system of what tags to focus on
 
3:24 PM
@Jon I mean "we allow non-Python chat" in the sense that "Me and Peter talk about graphic design a bit :P or C or javascript"
 
DSM
+1 for restricting to Python+AWFUL for cv-please-attend requests.
 
What about resource request questions?
 
user559633
I think it's okay to post some non-python cv-pls -- sometimes the questions are just obviously bad and it's not like a single cv-pls line is that spammy.
 
user559633
Yeah, what @DSM said is more or less my thoughts -- Python or just terrible (really bad or normal linkedin)
 
3:26 PM
I voted to close it, I do see that as a close fast before the spam comes in post.
 
user559633
gonnng btw
 
DSM
@tristan: wince
 
:D
 
@tristan you're on a roll here
 
@tristan oh dear, you're late and then put your foot in it... 3rd time lucky? :p
 
3:27 PM
Can we redesignate tristan as Ironic Typist For Life?
 
Okay so how about this: 10 minute grace period on cv-pls, where we give the OP/other members time to sort stuff out. Exceptions to this are:
Typo
Dupes (and looking for hammer targets)
Spam
Offensive
Resource Request
 
@tristan I call trollllllll btw. :-D
 
user559633
Zero gets it. (i caught up on reading, i knew what i was doing)
 
And cv-pls should, in general, be about Python or be truly awful (i.e. offensive/spam/nonsense).
 
rhubarb - it's really late here, but I'll read the transcript.
 
3:27 PM
What about questions in a specific smaller tag? Python is popular, we don't need to be cv-ing everything ourselves, but Flask, as an example from earlier, is much lower traffic. I typically post those because I know they won't get enough attention. I also put a lot more effort in to improving posts there.
 
@PM cool, sleep well.
 
why is it so important that you all help stackoverflow ?
 
also there was some cases of "resource requests" that can be solved using standard library
example was "how can I read mail from gmail into mbox"
 
Because we are stackoverflow
 
answer: use imaplib and mbox from standard library
 
user559633
3:29 PM
I noticed that @davidism and I've started passively answering old questions on that tag, but I think normal rules apply -- if it's bad, it needs a close
 
user559633
@WalleCyril can we answer that after the general meeting? the full answer is quite long and different for others
 
DSM
@davidism: can't speak for anyone else, but by "Python" I didn't mean "only the Python tag", but Python as an ecosystem.
 
Yeah exactly.
Python-related.
 
Yeah, I know, I'm just saying that rather than try to restrict what types of cvs we allow, we could decide to focus on more specific sub-tags as well
 
how many hours have you spent on stackoverflow, helping others
 
3:31 PM
@Walle please stop derailing the meeting.
 
@Walle can we please discuss this after the meeting? Or in AOB?
 
@davidism Not sure I follow ... people with specific interests will naturally tend to focus on them, right?
 
Rather than define specific sub-tags I'd prefer to just say "Go for Python-related" and sort it out as we go along. We're all pretty sensible.
 
@AnttiHaapala it doesn t answer my question, and why do you say I should talk after, why do you exlude me
 
3:32 PM
@davidism I'm sure we can word it clearly enough.
 
@Walle we have an agenda, and what you're asking isn't currently on-topic.
 
@WalleCyril kicked
 
@WalleCyril because this is a room meeting and you are intruding.
 
@ZeroPiraeus What I was getting at was that I could constantly post questions that meet all the requirements we've laid out just by hanging out in the Python tag, but by focusing on Flask and SQLAlchemy I end up posting fewer requests
 
DSM
[Meta: should we start wrapping up the CV discussion?]
 
3:34 PM
I have a rough outline that I'm typing as people put forward ideas. Ideally I'd like to finish this point in the next 11 minutes at most to get onto the next part (don't want to get bogged down ideally).
[Meta: @DSM great minds thing alike and all that]
 
... so you're suggesting less-frequented tags get a little more leeway?
 
yeah, because we give them more of our (good) attention
 
user559633
To davidism's point, I don't see posting CV pls on sqlalchemy/flask as being exclusionary of tending to the greater garden of the python tag.
 
Can I just clarify my understanding: after the 10 minute grace period, any Python-related question is fair game right? So after 10 minutes, if OP isn't responding. We just cv-pls and close it.
Whether it's POB or TB or TO or whatever.
 
We can cv before 10 minutes, we just can't post it here before then
 
3:35 PM
In general as regulars we know who the experts are, and I think we strike a good balance at bending the rules a little for people we trust to know what they're doing.
 
user559633
I'm more lenient on less commonly trafficked jinja/flask tags because the answers tend to be non-numerous, e.g. this
 
Can you post a final result on this topic before closing it?
When to cv and when not to
 
@Bhargav yeah will do :) I'm going to make a wiki post on the subject.
 
I do have one more related topic
 
Thanks. :)
 
3:37 PM
hmm sometimes it has been good that the cv-pls does appear hhere
 
My understanding: for improvable posts, we call attention to them for constructive comment, and then after ~10m cv-pls.
 
How about this for a summary
All cv-pls should be Python-related or be truly, awful. Questions not specifically tagged Python are fair game as long as they're Python related (for example, Flask, Django, scipy-stach, etc).

cv-pls requests should have a 10 minute grace period, this allows the OP time to edit and also gives people time to comment and ask for further clarification etc. Exceptions to this rule are:

Typo
Dupes (and looking for hammer targets)
Spam
Offensive
Resource Request

After the 10 minute grace period, everything is fair game. If an OP isn't replying/editing then cv-pls it and let the room close it i
 
for example zero asked cv-pls for the google imap question, it had 3 votes already bc of resource request
 
To further avoid seeming like a mob, let's avoid piling on snarky/less-than-helpful comments to questions posted here.
 
@davidism +1
 
user559633
3:38 PM
[edit: non helpful!]
 
Unless you're going to be completely direct and polite in helping improve a post, don't comment.
 
Can we still vent frustration in chat though?
 
of course
 
user559633
I think "of course."
 
Excellent.
 
user559633
3:39 PM
We're not free TAs
 
@tristan stop thinking my thoughts :)
 
user559633
@davidism so we're going to keep being a little more lenient on the lesser used ecosystem of flask?
 
hello
 
user559633
@ReutSharabani we're in the general meeting, about done on item 1 sopython.com/transcript/3/winter-2015-general-meeting
 
Ok. One final thing on cv-pls (unless anyone else has any comments): Let's stop the GOOOOOOOOOONG joke. It was funny. I loved it like a child. But it could lead to people racing.
 
user559633
3:40 PM
Can we still gong the gong after 10 minutes?
 
I'm not sure what that means so I'll just watch the chatlog
 
And remember children: your votes are your own. You do not have to cv-pls if you disagree.
 
and do state your opinion if you disagree
 
Do not feel pressured into voting, especially if you're not sure.
 
I'll resurrect the gong somewhere much less visible, but I agree, there's no reason to say "done" or "closed" or "gong" when a post is closed
 
user559633
3:41 PM
I'm going to keep gonging the gong sometimes. Y'all ain't my real dad.
 
Definitely. If you're unsure or actively think "No, this is wrong..." then say so.
 
Instead, use the cv-pls extension which will cross items off for you.
oh, and no more "cv-maybe"
 
Yeah. We're replacing cv-maybe with cv-possibly.
 
either "cv-pls" or don't at all
If you're not sure, ask a real question and describe what you think, don't just tag the link
 
One thing: what is "calling attention"? oneboxing? ? Something else?
 
user559633
3:43 PM
Is this really that big of a deal or are we just obsessing over it right now because it's an item on a list?
 
@tristan the worry is that we appear as a mob. We can be a mob, but we can't appear to look like one.
 
@tristan it's bothered the ros for a while, that's why it's on the list
 
user559633
Fair and fair, was an innocent question.
 
Right unless anyone has any pressing comments, let's move onto Help Vampires.
 
user559633
/me gets out the garlic
 
3:44 PM
Help vampires in this room, not in general
 
2. Help Vampires: Better Than Twilight But Still A Pain
 
had one unpleasant on weekend
no ro's were available so he kept pinging me for quite some time
 
user559633
(can we add garlic to the salad lang meaning "don't help the help vampire?")
 
user559633
Isn't that behavior regular flaggable @AnttiHaapala?
 
3:45 PM
@tristan ?
 
@tristan the flags have no context and no explanation and show up in all rooms, so it doesn't work well for that
@Ffisegydd should mean "kicked"
@Vampire garlic
 
We can debate the meaning of "Garlic" in AOB :P
 
user559633
(thanks, again, didn't know)
 
we could have a help vampire post on sopython, that could be linkable to the help vampires
 
@AnttiHaapala if you ping me, I will get a notification on my phone a few minutes later
 
3:47 PM
basically the cleaner version of saying "f... off"
 
That's not a bad idea. (and yeah if people really need an RO, ping me too and I'll get it on my phone)
 
DSM
If Kevin were here, he might say "dealing with people who have map-territory confusions can be tough", but in a more amusing way. To handle a recent visitor to the room we had to tag in and out because the confusion was so deep-rooted. It might have been better for us to cut our losses earlier.
 
I think cutting your losses and not getting involved if they're showing HV behaviour is important.
The more you help them, the more they tend to expect it, and so the more they'll ask.
 
DSM
Especially because I keep telling myself "if I can just get him to understand this one point.."
 
"I...I can change them...make them a decent SO user..."
 
3:48 PM
If it takes more than one screen of messages, and the point is still unclear, you need to recognize that and stop
 
This is getting all fifty shades...
3
 
What gets me is that a problem will often be interesting, but solving it for that specific user will not be rewarding at all
I've been kicking more often, but I think we could stand to do it even sooner.
The first two kicks are one minute warnings, it's not a huge punishment, just a wakeup call
 
yesterday, by interwebz
help
 
Don't be afraid to turn people away if they're being annoying.
 
What to do with users that choose to participate in feeding the HVs?
 
3:51 PM
Throw them to the kittens?
 
If they're not disrupting the chat with it, maybe just let them learn the hard way?
 
user559633
Should HVs get kicked?
 
The problem with that is that the HV may come back expecting more help @Jon
 
DSM
For all of us, I think a gentle reminder of house policy would suffice. But if actual progress is being made, so that the conversation has a sensible flow, we should obviously let that go.
 
HVs must be told small answers here, for long ones use the main site
 
3:52 PM
cbg
 
DSM
The one-page rule is probably a decent guide.
 
Yep +1
 
@JonClements It can be hard to extricate yourself. Maybe a codephrase? "@vampire I don't think this room can help you" or similar to signal to someone getting pulled in that it might be worth disengaging.
 
cbg @Benjamin, we're having a general meeting right now: sopython.com/transcript/3/winter-2015-general-meeting
 
cbg @BenjaminGruenbaum
 
3:53 PM
@davidism the advice Shog gave me is to kick often since it's just a minute.
Been working real great for us in the JS room, improved signal to noise a lot.
 
Don't be afraid to ask people to go away and research/google stuff. Though do it politely (no LMGTFY links).
 
We discussed HVs in the JS room, pretty much the conclusion we came up with is that ^
Also, to ignore them hen we can.
 
If you see someone else helping a vampire, remind them to take a step back and realize what they're doing.
The ROs have done that for each other a few times :)
 
I think a wiki page to be able to point them to might be useful.
 
DSM
"So you want to be a help vampire"
 
3:55 PM
@davidism in the JS room we do that in a separate room - we've come to a consensus to argue between ROs in a separate room to not send mixed signals and or cause more OT discussion.
 
In these docs docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.7/topics/forms. Do I have to insert my form name in place of form(.subject). And if so, what would the subject be?
 
Been working out real well for us.
 
@Benjamin we do the same, we've got a Trello board for ROs only.
 
@Ffisegydd that's nice.
 
List of troublemakers and such. davidism himself was top of this list after his &quot;accident&quot;
5
 
3:56 PM
:-|
 
Uhm, is it over already? I was in a surprise meeting >_<
 
@poke nah. Discussing Help Vampires.
 
@IbrahimApachi Sorry, we're currently having a room meeting - can it wait for a bit?
 
Though I think we're coming to the end of that?
 
I think you guys should post an illustration of a chatlog iwth an HV and send HVs to read that.
 
3:57 PM
Summary: be polite. Ask them to research/Google stuff. Point them towards a wiki page once we've got one. For users helping HVs, politely point it out to them.
 
Do we have a concise definition for help vampire?
 
"Are you a Help Vampire? Answer these questions to find out..."
 
Does that sound reasonable?
 
DSM
3-7 should move along relatively quickly, I expect.
 
(I have been wondering about that)
 
3:58 PM
@ReutSharabani there's a standard article I link them to: skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/help_vampire.htm
 
Of course I can wait. Sorry for interrupting :P
 
@poke something like
 
@IbrahimApachi No need to apologise, you weren't to know ^^
 
"When I do 2 + 2 in the shell, I get 4" "Great... how do I make it say 5..." "okay, so how can I take that 5 and make it 6" "what if I want to put leading zeroes on that" - "okay, can I print that in hex..." "can I write that to a file" "can I write it to a file in sorted order?" "can I then rename that file?"
 
@Ffisegydd I think that sums it up
 

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