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01:51
Hey guys how do you print with like """ """ those things so that you can have a large amount of text or even hand made ascii?
can you give an example of what you want?
Sorry I managed to get it to work thanks for reply!
Suddenly reminded of this
02:07
The infinite wisdom of xkcd
user1227304
hhahaha
user1227304
I love xkcd
I've come to understand that the longer I study, the more of a moron I realize I am #gradstudentwoes
@Code-Guru: on the infinite wisdom of xkcd, I present you a bunch of rocks
cabbage
I don't get the Rule 34 reference, and google isn't very enlightening.
02:34
Say I have three files. A B C.
B imports C.
IF A imports B will it also import C. If not how can I make it.
@Code-Guru: what rule 34 reference?
@inspectorG4dget hover over the "bunch of rocks" toon
@jack no, I don't think so
Yes in each file there is one class I need to import.
02:36
you have to import module C into A if you need access to something from it.
Hmm in my assignment it says I cannot do that.
You can also import the individual class you need with from ... import syntax
does A need direct access to C?
@inspectorG4dget yah, I saw that and it didn't help a while lot
No
A only needs acces to B
and B only to C
You only need to import the modules you are using directly.
so, importing C into B and importing B into A doesn't automagically import C into A, but you don't need to since A doesn't call any functions or use any classes in C.
Basically, Wolfram has a way of organizing a certain type of cellular automata (this is called Wolfram's rule 34). Randall was calling rule 34 on that, meaning that there had to be some sort of p0rn based off of that
02:39
Hmm thanks I'll work on it and report back thanks
so there's porn about cellular automata...mkay
I kind of get it now.
I figured out the Internet rule 34 about porn
well, the fun times start when you consider how the CA works. It'll just be a bunch of writhing bodies moshing around
CA = Cellular Automaton
@inspectorG4dget my mind definitely didn't go in that direction lol
02:45
ah
lol @Code-Guru
CA is like Congawy's Life Or is it something else?
Conway's Game of Life is a CA. There are several types of CAs
that's one example, yes
WireWorld is other example
Frogger
I understands now :D
user1227304
03:37
Anyone here?
DSM
DSM
05:03
@mgilson: I see you're developing MP-level typing skills..
?
MP level?
Oh, NVM
I got it.
Not yet I'm afraid. I'd need to learn Dvorak first.
I just contributed my first patch to python! (woohoo!)
DSM
DSM
Anything cool?
It's a pretty lame first patch I'm afraid ... and it will probably get rejected anyway
Nope. Just documentation.
the online documentation for collections.Counter.most_common doesn't mention the fact that n can be None.
But the docstring does.
This is what happens when I try to go back through my old code and figure it out. I documented the None thing in my code, but then I couldn't find it in the online documentation so I started to wonder where I got the idea ...
I suppose I probably shouldn't claim to have contributed a patch to python. More just the python documentation.
DSM
DSM
Congrats! I've had a few accepted myself: mostly docs, and those mostly typo fixes, although a few bugs. One was a use of list as a variable name (!) which broke a flatten routine. Another was a refcount error in an incredibly obscure code path. So nothing substantial.
It's always fun though. As I told Jon the other day -- I'd love to be a regular python dev someday. I doubt it'll actually happen, but you never know.
Probably wouldn't be too hard for me to get my boss to approve it as a 20% project.
DSM
DSM
05:11
Oh, yeah, you have that as an option! Isn't that for more concrete projects, though, like "get Python to do cool thing X" or whatever?
@DSM -- I don't think so.
It needs to have clearly defined boundaries.
or "objectives and key results"
but I think that could be as simple as "close a bunch of bugs on the tracker"
As long as I can demonstrate that it benefits google.
The problem is that the more I look around, the more 20% projects I wanna take on.
Right now, all of our internal "auto"-documentation is generated by epydoc.
and I've always hated the way epydoc looks. It doesn't motivate me to write good docstrings at all ;-)
sphinx is SOOOOO much nicer.
DSM
DSM
I had to google to see what it looked like. So that's epydoc output? Yeah, it's not pretty.
But more than that, sphinx supports cross references
Which I really loved when I first started using it. The ability to jump around to exactly where I needed was awesome.
The problem is that sphinx autodoc requires that the module be imported which can be a problem since we have so much code and it's all so inter-dependent and dependent on C code, etc.
Oh snakieees! I'm home :D
So everyone enjoying the new influx of homework questions?
05:28
Let the rep wars commence!
oh yeaa beh beh!
@AshwiniChaudhary I bet you're already getting your engines started :P
@mgilson Where were you all this time man? I hope you stay in chat, I really enjoy your company :D
what do you mean?
I mean, this is the first time I'm seeing you in the chat as a regular, as in you come in everyday.
But you've been here far longer than I have for sure.
ha ha. Yeah, it probably won't last too long.
It's 9:30 PM now.
Oh, stop being pessimistic, the chatroom grows on ya :D
05:31
I'm usually expected to be at home hanging out with my wife and son at this time of day
:)
btw guys, the graph database book is out :D graphdatabases.com
But, they're out of town ... So ...
@mgilson Ahh, so you're an awesome dad and husband too! :D No trouble, just bring them over to stackoverflow, we'll indoctrinate them into learning python, unless you've already done that :P
Not yet. My son's only 4 ... he's gotta learn to spell a few words first.
@AshwiniChaudhary How've you been?
05:33
There's more hope for my wife.
She's programmed in C++ before and is considering getting back into programming/web design.
@mgilson Ahh, my little cousin sister is 8, and I started teaching her scratch.
She loves playing with it.
@mgilson Ahh, so the web dev stack? js + python/ruby/php(bad bad bad)?
Probably something like that.
@GamesBrainiac Fine, getting ready for work.
html/css too
@AshwiniChaudhary what do you do? Web develop?
05:35
To be fair, css, html and js are what I've been learning recently.
Yeah.
Well, I can honestly tell you that I have absolutely no love for javascript.
Me neither (so far)
Scoping is horrible.
05:35
Python/Django mostly.
@AshwiniChaudhary Ahh, I see. Not flask or Pyramid?
I'd like to get more into backend-infrastructure stuff around here.
@mgilson I agree. I mean front end is nice and all, but the real magic happens at the back end.
I hope Python comes up with a better alternative for async so that it can compete with nodejs.
I don't even know what you're talking about ;-)
Right now, loads of people are moving from python to nodejs, simply because its faster for them. Things like blogs and newspaper sites are moving to nodejs.
05:37
Nop.
Anything related to Guido's recent interest in TULIP?
@mgilson As in there are only 2 frameworks that support async, and thats twisted and tornado, both are not as fast as nodejs.
@mgilson Yea, Guido wants a good alternative to Nodejs in python.
Yeah, that sounds like Guido's new TULIP stuff.
I've never done anything along those lines. All of my python asynchronous stuff has been using multiprocessing
Hmm, I hope something comes out, otherwise, I'll have to go back to writing nodejs stuff instead of flask/django stuff.
I've used MPI and OpenMP in C/Fortran.
05:40
@mgilson That would be quite messy then.
@AshwiniChaudhary So, whats your main product? Newspaper, blogs?
I think something will come of it: python.org/dev/peps/pep-3156
It's already in a PEP.
Hmm, 3.3 they say, its not here yet then.
@mgilson Does Fortran have pointers?
If not, how does it manage memory? I've always been curious about that.
@GamesBrainiac -- sort of, but not really.
How does python manage memory? ;-)
It depends on which fortran revision you're talking about. Prior to fortran 90, there was no dynamic memory allocation.
for fortran 90, you can declare arrays as allocatable and then allocate them with special statements.
Ahh, I see then.
It sounds more manageable than C/C++.
And, it actually has automatic garbage collection as well.
05:46
Wait, if thats the case, how can it be so fast?
So, yes, more manageable. No such thing as void pointers or any such nonsense.
why not?
I mean, I hear that fortran is the fastest language for numerical analysis.
Compared to C, it's pretty simple and has very elegant array manipulation syntax
similar to numpy actually.
Although obviously more restrictive.
05:47
How is it more restrictive?
Numpy can do much more complex slicing, etc.
I don't think fortran supports negative indices.
stuff like that.
Ahh
So why is fortan not more widely used?
I mean, it sounds like a fantastic and simple language
Compared to C which is full of pointers.
Which can get annoying really fast.
Fortran actually does have some pointers. You can do something like a => b(1:3, 2:6) which would be akin to a numpy view of b.
Ahh.
But then why is it not more widely used?
I mean, C has been used to make things like Python and Java.
In general, I think more complex memory management is more difficult.
05:50
Ahh
So thats why.
I wouldn't want to write python's memory allocator in fortran for example.
Why is that, you just said it had a simple array syntax.
@Games -- It does, but sometimes, if you want to write general procedures, you want something more complex (I'm thinking about void pointers).
Ahh
That makes sense.
DSM
DSM
Wow, step away for a bit and it's all #fortran!
05:53
well people here discuss all kinds here.
@DSM How ya been man?
And, fortran has no pre-processor which I think has been very important to C's success
(it's really hard to write cross platform code without it).
Ahh, that adds to the reason why C has been so successful.
DSM
DSM
Certainly writing system code in f77 would have been very unpleasant.
Yeah.
F90 is actually pretty nice.
Just trying to learn why fortran became so unpopular over time, and the rise of C. @DSM
I mean, before fortran was widely used.
DSM
DSM
05:55
In grad school had to work with my supervisor's fortran 77 code.. structuring large programs was more challenging that it should have been.
It would be one of the main languages that you learnt in college, and right now, fewer and fewer people know that it even exists.
Also part of the problem with fortran is the people who write fortran ;-). A lot of them wrote code back before good coding standards were introduced...
Or they're scientists who write in fortran because it's fast.
With no care about good style, etc.
I still don't know how python inter-operates fortran.
DSM
DSM
Fortran's still the language of choice in some physics circles, although c++ has been supplanting it recently as it's a little easier to work with some of the newer parallel & gpu tech.
I mean, I've heard that you can do this via cython, but how does it work?
05:57
@GamesBrainiac -- The same way it interoperates with C.
@DSM Ahh. C++ is going to get modules soon :D
Fortran and C interoperate pretty well.
@mgilson yes, but cpython is written in C.
Its just another C extension.
So, you just need to wrap the fortran calls in C.
python -> C -> fortran
And the wrapping is commonly done via f2py. It generates all the wrapper code.
Ahh.
Well I'm glad that I don't need to do all of that :D
05:59
And then it compiles all the wrapper code and your code into a .so which can be imported by python. It's pretty easy actually :)
Still, I'm glad that I can just do import numpy and have all the advantages :D
@GamesBrainiac -- I'm glad I didn't have to do it either, but then again, I'm glad I didn't have to write code using the python C API either. :)
I'm such a lazy bum! :P
@mgilson Its not that bad, but Cython does make things a lot easier.
I mean it generates and optimizes all the wrapper code for you.
I hope jetbrains makes an IDE where you can use C++ and Python together.
They're working on a C++ IDE right now.
Yeah, but even Cython requires that you learn some new syntax if you're going to get any real speedups from it.
If you already know fortran, then it's just as easy to go that route.
(which is why I never learned Cython).
Well not really
You don't have to learn a new syntax, and if you do its trivial.
Most of the time, you end up writing the C code and then just importing it to Cython and writing a wrapper function or class for it :P
06:25
@GamesBrainiac Currently I am writing REST services for an Android/iPhone app, mostly using django-rest-framework.
@AshwiniChaudhary I don't know why people use django for REST. Do you already have a django site? I mean there are many faster alternatives for making APIs.
@GamesBrainiac Don;t know, I am very new to Django itself. What are some faster alternatives?
@AshwiniChaudhary Erm for simple API design, why not Pyramid? Or Falcon-Python?
Falcon Python is blazing fast btw.
@GamesBrainiac Never heard of it. :-) Does it supports multiple databases?
@AshwiniChaudhary Yes it does.
I haven't seen a single python framework that supports only one database.
@mgilson oh yes, that does not seem pleasant
@inspectorG4dget hai man! :D
@GamesBrainiac catch you later, gtg now.
@AshwiniChaudhary Cya bro! :D
ohai @GamesBrainiac. Just checking my email and waiting for a friend to come home
bye @AshwiniChaudhary
@inspectorG4dget Ahh, catching up with old friends, eh?
07:05
nono @GamesBrainiac. A friend of a friend wanted to talk about universities in Canada
@inspectorG4dget -- you in Canada?
@mgilson: yes. I did my bachelor's at the University of Toronto, masters at the University of Ottawa, which is also where I'm doing my PhD now
Ahh. I knew/collaborated with some people at University of Alberta and University of Calgary during my PhD.
very cool! What was your thesis on?
Proton Aurora.
Magnetospheric substorms and the like :)
07:09
say'th whaaaat?!
seriously though, that sounds awesome (even if beyond me)
It was pretty neat stuff.
My thesis was actually pretty simple (or so I thought)
the prof of one of the courses (combinatorial algorithms) I took in my masters happened to have gotten her PhD from the same university where I did my undergrad. She was incidentally also the chair of my master's defence. So we became fairly good friends over time.
When I ran into her one day (after I started my PhD), she told me: "when you think you know everything, they give you a bachelor's degree. When you realize you know nothing, they give you a master's degree. When you realize your supervisor knows nothing, they give you a PhD"
The basic idea that I demonstrated was that by looking at the proton aurora, you could infer something about the time-dependent geometry of the earth's magnetic field.
with some caveats.
That's really awesome
I had to look up what a proton aurora was, and afterward, things started making sense
Potentially very stupid question: How badly are you affected by Heisenberg's principle?
@mgilson that just went way over my head :P
07:17
Do you mean my research?
or biologically?
Proton Aurora? Man, I've never seen the Aurora Borealis.
@mgilson your research mate :P
@GamesBrainiac: so you have an energetic proton that loses energy over time (this is in the upper stratosphere / ionosphere)
Unfortunately, the proton aurora is almost always sub-visual. You can only see it with a camera.
as it loses energy, you can observe the waves of that energy
@inspectorG4dget how do you know all this stuff man?
I feel really dumb right now XD
07:19
@inspectorG4dget -- That's more or less correct. It does lose energy due to collisions with other particles, but that's not exactly what causes the light to emit.
then, based on the diffusion pattern of that energy (since it's electromagnetic in nature), you can deduce what EM fields are about, such as the EM field of the earth. This was exactly what @mgilson did for his thesis (what I said is a really dumbed down version)
Honestly, I can't get my head around electromagnetism and all the funky calculus it entails.
@GamesBrainiac: I just googled it. I hadn't heard of proton auroras until about 48 seconds ago
@mgilson: please continue
hahahaha
@mgilson Yes, please do continue :D
While it's rocketing through the ionosphere, it picks up an electron to become a hydrogen molecule. Usually that electron is in a high energy state
07:21
So, its essentially plasma?
That's not an "energetically favorable" place for it to be.
So it drops down to a lower energy level (this is all chemistry stuff). When it drops to a lower energy level, it needs to get rid of the excess energy somehow ... which is where the light comes from.
The ionosphere and everything above it are different types of plasmas, yes.
@mgilson Oh yes, I know that bit. Essentially electrons jumping from a higher shell to a lower shell emits light, in the form of a photon.
Ahh, and you use this emission pattern to decipher something.
That's what accounts for the aurora.
Yes. If you look at a map of where you see it and where you don't, you can infer where the protons are coming down.
07:24
And what does that tell you?
It tells you where the magnetic field conditions (geometry) are favorable for altering the proton trajectories so that they can actually make it to the ionosphere.
Why would you want to shoot protons into the ionosphere?
Can't you just make something like a mass spectrometer but for protons?
we don't. They're in space all the time, but only a few of them are able to actually make it to earth.
good question @GamesBrainiac
@mgilson Okay, but that really does not mean much. I mean, a proton won't do much against you, but a meteor, now thats something :P
07:26
Sure. It's not dangerous -- At least not the lower energy ones.
Are you basically saying that you made something that can give you an indication of the thickness of the ionosphere?
the higher energy ones are a form of radiation.
No.
I figured out something which can be used to infer more information about the structure of the earth's magnetic field
which is one piece needed to understand substorms.
So you're trying to find a correlation between the strength of the magnetic field, and the likeliness that we're invaded by plasmafied protons?
:P
bbiab
this is interesting
07:29
Not strength exactly -- More like shape of the magnetic field.
(although strength does come into play as well).
btw @mgilson, I'm very familiar with peoples' tendencies to google the basics about a field and think they know everything about it, despite the fact that it's been under active research for far too long (#phdwoes). So when I said "I just googled it", that's not what I was doing. I was just trying to get a basic understanding so that I could understand what you were going to say next
@inspectorG4dget -- Oh, no problem. I don't mind that at all.
I miss it sometimes.
It's nice to think about it again.
Then you might like this post and this one too (reddit)
07:37
ha ha. "so you're like the IT guy"?? Seriously?
yup #sadface
I was helping out a friend, talking him over the phone, through logging into his email. I said "click that button on the top left" and he says "wait, your left, or mine?". How did he know which way I was facing?! o.O
@mgilson going back to proton auroras, you can compute the shape and the intensity (to some extent) of the earth's magnetic field. How does this help you understand substorms?
@GamesBrainiac: perfect timing
So, in the "midnight sector" -- the part of space directly behind the earth (as viewed from the sun)
the magnetic field gets really "stretched".
@GamesBrainiac: btw, I finished my fuzzy controller assignment. The water tank now fills with water to the desired height
okay
Morning all
@inspectorG4dget I can't believe you just linked me to that.
(see picture in lower right)
cabbage @inspectorG4dget @JonClements
Notice how the lines get closer together?
07:49
morning @JonClements
In that region the field is very stressed -- Like stretching a rubber band.
the plasma is usually stuck on the magnetic field that it started on.
Yea, I see it.
So, when the rubber band gets "released", it slings a bunch of plasma toward the earth.
@mgilson that sound soooo friggin awesome
A ginormous plasma gun
look out halo, here comes earth
07:50
omg omg.... the planet's under attack!.... .arhghghghhghghghgh!
@JonClements actually, the planet's attacking the planet
what do we do, what do we do /me runs around in circles barking
Yeah ... But, when it gets into the inner magnetosphere (the rounded lines) it can't get in any further so it deflects up and down and follows those lines to the poles
(hence the aurora).
Save the dog biscuits - every dog and human for theirselves!
"The Earth is under my protection" -- magneticForceField
07:52
Eventually the plasma starts backing up and it causes the magnetic field to be more rounded.
@inspectorG4dget -- That's not actually far from the truth.
@mgilson Wait, so you mean to tell me the beautiful auroras are happening because of super heated proton goo bouncing up and down in different layers of the atmosphere?
Well ... This is above the atmosphere.
And the visible part (at least to your eye) is generally caused by electrons.
(they get accelerated more than the protons)
@inspectorG4dget I thought Dr Who was the protector of Earth?
07:53
Really @mgilson?!
@JonClements: thank you for catching the reference :)
@inspectorG4dget yup.... don't expect me to be awake and up to speed on most things for at least another hour though :)
And the really cool "discrete" arcs are accelerated further by near earth electric fields (which I don't understand)
But the point is that the geometry is key to understanding where the rubber band is going to be released.
It's also the key to being able to figure out how to connect what we see in the aurora with what our satellites are measuring.
Drawing those connections is really tough, so it's hard to definitively say that this thing that we measured our our spacecraft caused this thing that we saw in the aurora.
@JonClements: k. But, just - don't blink
If we can start to make those connections, then we can piece together a much more complete picture of the system --
And we can build on those connections to make new connections (etc.)
07:58
But it's a really tough problem, and most of the time, we're just guessing.
But, it's great because in the past few years, a professor at Calgary has really been pushing that we look at the proton aurora more.
It gets less attention because it's not as visible and exciting as the electron aurora.
In the end, it comes down to colors! :D

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