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7:19 PM
Hmm that is a lot of hedging.
I believe SE knows about the broken gravatars.
Has known for 10 days or so.
But can they fix it, or is it Gravatar's problem?
 
stupidity of the day. Wasting tags because I kept getting a 401 from travis uploading to pypi.....didn't create the base name in pypi before trying to upload to pypi
 
@Cerberus we just blame Kevin for everything :p
 
Oh, that's smart.
Does it work?
 
it's true. I yelled out Kevin for my latest issue with travis/pypi
 
No - but it's quite enjoyable :)
 
7:20 PM
KEVIN!!!!!
 
Hah.
Poor man.
Or child—I don't know what he is.
 
Dog?
 
Manchild.
 
aka Kevin
Kevin is Kevin
 
7:21 PM
Ah.
 
He's just a green gravatar :D
 
Kevin is more than a name... it is... errr... Kevin...
 
That's nice and...circular.
 
We can just blame it on the other Kevin easily. Infinite deniability.
 
on occasion his algorithm spits out gifs and stories
 
7:21 PM
He would thrive on Philosophy.SE.
How convenient.
Which one is the sock?
 
I'm pretty sure philosophy is an elaborate prank a la Mornington Crescent
 
Hmm a game that is a prank?
Isn't a game already fake?
Circularity strikes again!
 
But all the world's a stage, so it's a triple negative.
 
Rhubarb all, Time for me to sleep.
 
rbrb @BhargavRao
 
7:27 PM
Hmm complicated.
Sleep well.
 
@Cerberus well... it might take some thinking about. I do hear that two heads are better than one... so therefore many should be better than two...
 
True, true.
This will be a stupid question, but why is Python so popular these days?
It seems to be fairly accessible, is that it?
 
Loads of batteries included... easy to read and write... pretty much a module for anything... can whip complicated systems up very swiftly...
 
Batteries?
But it's a snake.
 
Would it be too conceited give all the credit to this chat room?
 
7:31 PM
But OK, those are some good reasons.
 
@Kevin sure... but let's go for that anyway :p
 
And by this room, you mean the Kevins?
 
user559633
Python is popular?
 
I see it around a lot.
 
user559633
Ugh. Python is over. Too mainstream for me.
 
7:31 PM
But that may be Baader-Meinhof.
I'm so sorry.
Don't shoot the messenger.
 
user6568562
The documentation is spot on, rich and clear. Also you can import this
 
user6568562
Anytime you want, free of charge
 
@tristan of course... KevinScript(tm) will blow it out the water...
 
user559633
@Cerberus I think it's because it's in a decent state, language-coherency-wise, which makes it a strong teaching language.
 
There's pep, and there's pip?
 
user6568562
7:32 PM
Nice, only read the title.
 
@tristan Ah OK, yes, I've seen many people recommend it to people who are learning their first language.
 
user6568562
@tristan Yo [ :
 
I'm not a coder at all, and it seemed comparatively easy to me.
 
user559633
When I was coming up, I learned Java and C++ in college, so I got more practice with getting things to work in Java/C++ and the IDEs we were told to use than really with algos and grokking concepts for more than just exams
 
user559633
Hey random :)
 
7:34 PM
than?
 
user559633
@NinjaPuppy Still waiting on that :)
 
> parse error
 
user559633
@Cerberus Than, say, Python
 
tristan, the Snark Lord of Tshi :D
 
How bad is it if __hash__ and __eq__ check different attributes of an object?
 
user559633
7:34 PM
I'm not even that snarky :/
 
The IDEs were better than those for Python?
What do people use now, for Python?
 
@MorganThrapp not that bad, only you will not find your hashed items from the container.
 
Ah, alright.
 
user559633
@Cerberus repl or PyCharm compared to Eclipse? Yeah, the Python environment has less of a learning curve
 
so just some KeyErrors :P
 
7:35 PM
(Incidentally, isn't it all too easy to typo those underscores, three instead of two?)
 
@MorganThrapp so it is only a bit worse than def __hash__(self): return 42
 
@tristan So Python has better IDEs?
 
Eh, you get used to it. Plus, PyCharm will yell at you.
 
because, with that everything would work, though slowly.
 
I'm just using Sublime Text now.
I'm a total noob.
 
user559633
7:36 PM
Yeah, i'd hash(x) == hash(y) to mean x==y
 
I'm very happy with the linters.
 
user559633
Well, I think it's more a function of Python being interpreted v. compiled
 
@MorganThrapp just tested:
pycharm doesn't complain about def __init___(self)
 
I forgot that dictionary lookups use both __hash__ and __eq__.
 
x==y should imply hash(x) == hash(y) but not necessarily the other way around, due to mumble collisions handwave birthday paradox.
 
7:37 PM
@tristan well, check your implications
 
user559633
@AnttiHaapala what do you mean?
 
Evening all
 
you've got your implication backwards
 
user559633
meaning that it's not transitive?
 
x == y => hash(x) == hash(y)
 
DSM
7:39 PM
I'm pretty sure dictionary lookups check identity as well as hash and eq.
 
implication is not equivalence.
 
user559633
oh, sure.
 
user559633
yeah, dictionary lookups and set comparisons will use a hash
 
In Java we have a function signature being unique to it's name and argument list, i.e. test(), test(String one) and test(String one, int two) can all exist in one class. In Python this is not the case. What is the best way in your opinions to get around this from a design point of view?
 
@DSM a sec...
 
user559633
7:39 PM
if i drop off line, it's because coffee shop wifi and not me leaving in a huff about hashes
 
>>> x = float('nan')
>>> {x: 42}
{nan: 42}
>>> x in _
True
at least for this :P
>>> float('nan') in {x: 42}
False
 
DSM
I just remember a conversation about this where I commented that the Python docs are wrong, there's somewhere they use "equals" which would rule out NaN working. I was too lazy to submit a fix.
 
@cardycakes You could define the constructor to accept a variable number of arguments: def __init__(self, *args):
 
user559633
@cardycakes variadic args and/or default vars. do you have code that relies on name mangling by function signature a lot?
 
user559633
what kevin said
 
7:41 PM
>>> set([float('nan') for _ in range(16)] + ['Batman'])
{nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, 'Batman'}
@DSM it rules out nans from working.
 
Sometimes it may be appropriate to have a @staticmethod for a class that returns an instance of that class, which is kind-of-sort-of-not-really like having an additional constructor signature
 
@Kevin classmethod
 
but seriously, use optional keyword arguments
 
DSM
@AnttiHaapala: I don't know what you mean. The docs somewhere say something like "this returns the value corresponding to the key equal to" or something. But that would rule out getting NaN back, and it works exactly as it should.
 
7:43 PM
multiadapters
 
user559633
A long switch statement based on len args of the receiving frame
 
@DSM no, you will get this nan instance back by identity.
 
@KevinMGranger @tristan thanks. I have some code that scrapes some data and outputs, I ideally want it in a format so I can easily import the file, i.e. import scraper, myvar = scraper.out()
 
>>> hash(float('nan'))
0
 
@Kevin
**
 
7:44 PM
they all will hash to slot 0, but then compare with identity, but you cannot use any other nan instance to fetch your nan.
 
user559633
@cardycakes As in it can receive multiple files for the function to process?
 
user559633
I could go for some naan right now.
 
DSM
@davidism: singledispatch wouldn't work for the OP's case, though, right?
@AnttiHaapala: I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. NaN isn't equal to itself, so returning by instance is correct, and so "it works exactly as it should", as I said.
 
I keep forgetting that classmethods exist because I never use them.
 
No just so I can import scraper, then execute to get the output with the option of specifying a proxy and another variable that is specific to the data I am scraping
 
user559633
7:45 PM
I'm classy as fuck, so I use them all the time.
 
I bet it has something to do with the fact that I almost never use inheritance.
 
Yeah, I was thinking overload, not specifically different numbers of args.
 
user559633
@cardycakes If the code isn't very long, you could share it for some feedback/review
 
Okay sure, sec
 
3 mins ago, by davidism
but seriously, use optional keyword arguments
 
DSM
7:46 PM
I tend to use staticmethods where other people use classmethods. Not sure why.
 
this is exactly what you're asking for
 
@DSM I am not sure what you're saying :D
 
@DSM do you never intend to have those methods be extended / overridden in children?
 
Is it OK to post some Python code on SO and ask for help, when you have no idea what could be the problem?
 
staticmethod is used for something that perhaps shouldn't be in the class at all.
 
7:46 PM
@Cerberus only if it's a MCVE. When in doubt, read the help articles about asking.
 
DSM
@AnttiHaapala: believe me when I say I know how nans work. :-)
 
My colon voodoo elbow?
OK I suppose I should read some of those.
 
@DSM let me check :P
 
user559633
@Cerberus Exactly.
 
user559633
Much Code; Very Example (wow)
5
 
7:48 PM
Umm ahh.
 
That's totally what I meant. Ignore all the results you get by searching "MCVE" on your favorite search engine.
 
arrived just in time
 
And what does that mean?
 
user559633
 
Lovely.
 
7:49 PM
Some of my favorite questions to answer are the ones where OP doesn't know what the problem is and then I run the code on my machine and I don't know what the problem is. It's like one of them "locked room mysteries" where you have all the tools you need to identify the culprit... In principle.
 
user559633
hello hangover, i see you want to help me write some css
 
@Cerberus did you try reading the help center? stackoverflow.com/help/mcve
It's almost like I told you what to do.
 
@Kevin Ah, really? I suppose that's only when you really know a lot about the code/parts used, otherwise it must be frustrating!
 
Jul 29 at 21:43, by Andras Deak
":-|" -- davidism
 
user559633
7:50 PM
Alright, I'm off. Have a good day, you lovely people.
 
rhubarb
 
@davidism Oh, I read the tour. I'll read that...
 
see ya, @tristan
 
@DSM what I mean I do not know what you mean by "it works as it should" :D
 
Adios!
 
user6568562
7:50 PM
@tristan I find it poetic that the alcohol line is off area
 
user559633
@randomhopeful yeah, it's one of those nice lovely coincidences
 
user559633
okay, don't work too hard :) rhubarb
 
The important part is I have to be able to confirm that there is a problem. If the question is just "I tried using datetime to parse a string and it didn't work", that's not enough information. It's like a mystery where the narrator forgets to mention that the guy in the second chapter had red clay on the underside of his left boot.
 
Hello room of awesome-sauce.
Do things that are added to a LIST item automagically become "strings" ?
 
Nope, they retain their original type.
 
7:52 PM
@davidism OK that all makes perfect sense.
 
DSM
@AnttiHaapala: I mean that I would expect that if I did container.append(obj) and it succeeded, I'd have obj in container. The only way that can hold for objects which might not be equal to themselves is if we test identity as well. That's how nan works, which is why I think it's working as it should. I'm not sure what more I can say..
 
then I AM doing something messed up in my code shakes angry fist
 
>>> x = []
>>> y = 1.5
>>> x.append(y)
>>> type(x[0])
<class 'float'>
 
Thank ya @Kevin
 
@Kevin Hah! Yes, I understand.
 
7:53 PM
@DSM well yes, that :D
 
It has to be clear what the problem is and how it can be reproduced.
 
user6568562
the mention of CSS brings me nightmares filled with " ! " and relative measurements
 
@DSM accepted :D
 
?important
And what if your question depends on / uses several different programmes, wouldn't it be too...niche to ask?
The problem might be in your Python code, or you might be using the methods provided by the programme you use incorrectly.
 
If they're all moderately well-known third party libraries that are easy to pip install, then it shouldn't be an issue.
If they're code written by you that is too big or confidential to share, that's a problem
 
7:56 PM
Ah OK, yes, that makes sense.
Sounds pretty lenient!
 
@Cerberus the point in stackoverflow is that people ask questions and get answers and that builds up the knowledge base that would be useful to someone else as well.
 
That's the hard part of making an MCVE. Cutting out the dependencies on thousand-line-long homebrew modules
 
Somehow I expected the oldest SE sites to be the least accepting, but SO appears to be an exception.
 
if you dump a 700000 lines of code and say "the problem is there somewhere"
 
Haha.
 
7:57 PM
then the end result might also not be useful to anyone else.
 
I would not expect any answers, then.
 
if you got any answer I'd downvote them :P
 
I have a problem that does not depend on much code of my own making (I'm not a coder).
 
along with your question
 
Haha, mean.
 
7:57 PM
mean?
 
Downvoting technically good answers to bad questions is... Controversial.
 
Strict, then.
 
the one who dumps 700000 lines of code and say "solve my problems for me for free"
 
Sure, that's terrible.
 
@Kevin it really depends.
if the answer is good
but I doubt that too...
 
7:58 PM
I've seen various questions on SO that just seemed to have died still deaths.
 
DSM
Some people do it, some don't. From time to time I answer a question I think isn't of great quality (usually for lack of effort) when I think I have an interesting solution which might be more generally useful.
 
Ah, and then you could edit the question or its title to make it easier to find for posterity?
 
@Cerberus naturally, there is a set of badges for doing thta
 
Right.
 
user6568562
8:00 PM
Things will go smoother once you stop considering SO to be your free special hotline to man-machine interaction. At least from my experience
 
Illuminator, nice name.
@randomhopeful Hmm how would that work?
 
Martijn Pieters has got that...
 
I'm almost 3/5 of the way to it. It's surprisingly annoying to get.
 
user6568562
@Cerberus By taking coding seriously and spending most of your time reading and rereading documentation
 
Martijn Pieters, sounds very Dutch.
 
8:01 PM
he also has tracked his progress since then...
usually Dutch persons are given Dutch names.
 
@randomhopeful Ah, that is the "stoppping"?
 
Travis users. What do you guys do when uploading to pypi and checking multiple versions of Python. It seems like if you happen to have one py version that fails, and the other passes, it will still upload your package to pypi with the risk that one version will be broken.
But it will still be published
 
And the "considering"?
 
@idjaw I didn't even know travis could upload to pypi. That sounds like a bad thing to automate.
 
@idjaw I gave my link to you already
 
8:02 PM
@davidism why do you think that is a bad thing to automate?
 
the deployment target only runs after tests pass in all targets ...
 
@AnttiHaapala Ah. I didn't realize you had that in there. Let me check that
 
Stack Overflow is like the Soup Nazi.
I don't think I need to go into any more detail.
6
 
8:04 PM
... or... anyhow, what my code does is that if tests pass on 3.5, it then gets the docker manylinux image, builds binary wheels in that for all pythons, then installs them all, reruns unit tests and only if they all pass, it uploads to pypi :D
 
Antti and I had a discussion this morning, we both (a friend of his to be exact) have similar issues where it doesn't work with wheels
@AnttiHaapala OK yeah.....even though that sounds like overkill. It at least uploads a "confident" build to pypi
 
I had to do the "install binary wheels again"
because I had broken manifests at some point in time.
 
@AnttiHaapala can you send me your travis file again?
 
was just about to say nvm...>I found it. But thank you. Appreciate it.
 
DSM
8:06 PM
Up-front python relevance: it's a Jupyter notebook. Not-so-pythonic question: is there a convenient standalone Windows tool for combining html, js, and css into one html file? (I know I can do it via grunt but that's not available ATM.)
 
@AnttiHaapala Yeah OK. I clearly see what you are doing. It would be great if travis added a "final result of your tests"
simple bool. 1 == fail, 0 == pass
 
hmm but I guess you might be correct "after successful build"
does it mean all successful or one...
in any case I am rechecking with all python versions in that 3.5
 
well, right now it seems like it is doing each one individually. And my uploading to pypi will happen for each build. There should be a tag that uploads to pypi only on "total successful" test runs. Not just one.
 
a sec
there is deploy on 3.5
but...
 
hmm
do you think the before_deploy can be used to hook in that added test
just to give you some info. Check out my travis build here
you will see that it tries to upload both. The 3.4 works, but the 2.7 fails because the 0.0.4 tag already exists
 
8:14 PM
and what is worse, no error :P
your docs build failed as well?
 
exactly. Not only that, if you happen to look at previous ones. I got a 400 uploaded to pypi because of <stupid reasons> but the build still passed
it should totally be a fail
uploading to pypi is part of the travis process...it should not just pass something when something failed...
 
at least on: python: 3.4
but I am not sure any longer if it doesn't upload on 3.4 if 2.7 fails
you should actually test that
 
hmm...I wonder if that condition can take other travis tests
as conditions
but yeah...definitely will require testing. I'll have to do it in a separate branch...don't want to waste precious tags and unnecessary uploading to pypi :P
I already wasted 4 grrr
 
@idjaw Do Canadians have a limited amount of grrr available to them? You people really are too nice.
 
I have 5 left of my 10
After that we get put on a performance improvement plan to lower our usage
If we fail, we are exported to one of the other commonwealth countries to try to fit in there.
 
user6568562
8:23 PM
@AnttiHaapala What you said sometimes, earlier, answering a question about ceil. (multiplying by 100, dividing by 100). I'm thinking to use that in handling money. Treat cents as integers and not fractional parts of a dollar.
 
user6568562
Then, to represent it, I can print it that way meaning : multiply it by 100 to handle it. Dividing it by 100 to print it to user.
 
@AndrasDeak @idjaw if this feels too restricted you can always move to Finland. We allow virtually unlimited number of "peRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRkele".
@randomhopeful the first rule of money is: do not use floats.
use decimal.Decimal.
 
@AnttiHaapala I'm adding Finland to my list of countries to run to when I'm exiled. Thank you for your generous offer.
 
@idjaw who said that I am/my offer is generous :P (except you of course)
 
Hmm so Canada is still in the Commonwealth?
 
8:26 PM
Did I just fall in to a trap?
 
That would make sense.
 
@AnttiHaapala viiiitttttu
 
@AndrasDeak You forgot an i.
 
@AndrasDeak never with loong i
 
user6568562
@AnttiHaapala Yeah, you guys told me and finally I stumbled upon this
 
8:27 PM
sorry
@AnttiHaapala never? That's how I'd pronounce it:D
 
that is just wrong
 
Evening all.
 
:(
I'm sorry to hear that. You're shaking my perfect image of Finland right now.
 
if you want to emphasize your frustration, you can say v-ttuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhaarrrrrrrghh
 
Finish and Dutch (my language) and Hindi (I think) have funny double vowels.
 
8:28 PM
@JRichardSnape evening:)
 
user6568562
Pretty scary to rely on floats for moneyz. But you gave me that sweet idea. Since the doodling I'm about to start will only work on one currency to do basic arithmetic operations.
 
user6568562
I don't even need decimal for now
 
I mean, who writes Haapala or aanraakt?
 
user6568562
@JRichardSnape Yo [ :
 
r'([aeiouy]){2,}', "$1"
(Or is that not valid?)
 
8:29 PM
@Cerberus someone who makes a distinction between short and long vowels
 
True.
 
but seriously, Vietnamese language is really strange :P
 
And I believe in Finnish the quality doesn't change between a and aa, only the quantity?
I believe you!
 
you've got basically 6 tones, but... no one really can explain what's the difference
 
Oh, 6, even?
 
8:31 PM
I mean.. you can take one dialect, and then you can work out sort of a table... "tone goes like this"
then you take another dialect and it sounds completely different
then you ask a person and they're like ... well "idk"
 
It's quite extraordinary how impossible that is for us to learn and how easy for them to master.
 
it's always easy to learn your native language
the brain is wired differently in the first few years of age
 
Yup.
 
one dude taught his son Klingon as a native language
 
Oh, dear.
 
8:33 PM
it worked:)
 
user6568562
Nice, way to start his social life
 
he had to improvise sometime, like using war songs as lullabies
 
Haha nice.
 
and in vietnamese the tones are not only about "tone" but also the length of the vowel and whether your vocal chords are constricted or not, and perhaps whether or not the sound is nasal or not or something :D
 
considering that Klingons don't have lullabies...
 
8:33 PM
Did he go to school in Klingon attire?
 
That was a bad idea
 
sqlalchemy question - I have a... I guess supplement table? But there's literally only one thing in the table, so I just want it to be a property on my class. Is that possible? Or do I have to create an object/table for the other table?
 
@AnttiHaapala Right, things that are to us not distinctive.
Mostly.
 
so say I have a person.id and then I have a something.person_id and something.different and I want my Person class to have, say Person.different
 
@Cerberus in Finnish the vowel quality never changes, a, e, i, o, u, y, ä, ö always refer to distinct sounds... and diphthongs like äi äy, ui, ie, etc always are 50-50 slides.
 
8:36 PM
Right, I suspected as much.
One of my co-moderators is Joonas.
In Dutch, quality and quantity normally change together.
 
after you learn to pronounce the individual sounds and learn to ALways STRESS THE FIRST SYLlable then you sound 98 % native already.
grammar is the hard part :P
though, at this one work place we have a Canadian engineer :P
he's got like at least C1 if not C2 level Finnish grammar and vocabulary...
but totally Canadian accent
 
I'm so used to suppressing our own first-syllable-stressed rule when speaking Foreignese, I'd have to make a conscious effort to do that with Finnish:)
 
like... seriously, the first rule of Finnish language is "there are no aspirated consonants"
 
the whats?
I'm even lacking the linguistic lingo in Hungarian...
oh, zöngés mássalhangzó probably
g,d,b etc
Finns don't like gdb!
 
8:42 PM
no:(
 
"English voiceless stops are aspirated for most native speakers when they are word-initial or begin a stressed syllable, as in pill, till, kill."
 
as in p[h]ill, k[h]ill?
 
so he pronounces words like pilli (straw) or tilli (dill) as philli and thilli :P
 
alright. gotta head out. Might be back later tonight. Seems like I'm still going to be building more on to this virtual pdu
rbrb o/
 
Milli Pilli! \m/ (Heavisaurus reference)
 
8:42 PM
\o/
 
rbrb @idjaw
 
\o/
 
hevi not heavi
 
sorry, I'm a peasant:P
 
that's how you pronounce it after all ...
 
8:43 PM
/o\ <= should be a thing when things are wtf
3
 
I'll get back to my DuckTales, be back later
 
@AnttiHaapala good point...
btw I keep writing "especially" with "espetially" today, must be gravitational waves
 
No. You just don't know how to spell
wow...what's gotten in to me today
 
@AnttiHaapala It's strange how accent and other elements of linguistic proficiency often don't go hand in hand.
 
8:52 PM
then... for everything else you need the brain, but accent is also about fine motor skills
@idjaw you've been infected with Escherichia snarccus
 
DSM
Why did I pour myself such an enormous cup of coffee, given that I would have to stay extra time to drink it? #mysteries
 
@AnttiHaapala Mmm I think it's often not about lacking the physical ability.
@DSM Java?
 
@Cerberus one of the most difficult distinctions in English to Finns is the w/v
 
Ah, interesting.
Which do you use in Finnish? Or both indiscriminately?
 
the reason is that they're allophones
 
8:58 PM
Right, so the latter.
 
so in the word vauva, you pronounce it a bit like vauwwa
 
But you do hear the difference, don't you?
 
yes, and then no :D
 
Right.
 
so people then say "vhat did you say?"
 
8:59 PM
Sounds German!
 
or "in vhich wersion did it occur?"
 
It's very hard to convince a Dutchman that he isn't really pronouncing the -n at the end of most words.
 

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