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1:57 AM
 
M--
2:35 AM
@IanCampbell that's what I thought so, thank you
 
 
1 hour later…
@user16217248 FYI That post has already been flagged (presumably, NAA) and is currently in the LQA review queue.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:12 AM
Is this a recommendation/spam seed question? stackoverflow.com/q/52588601/2943403 Okay to close it as requesting software recommendations?
 
@mickmackusa no, that is not asking for a recommendation. It asks for a How and that can be achieved with (C)OTS which can be recommended but there are other (many) ways.
 
I'll grant that. My concern is that all answers are recommendations, no?
 
5:30 AM
@mickmackusa that does not make it a recommendation question; actually many common questions can and should be answered with "don't reinvent the wheel; instal <this popular library>"
 
Okay. I'll concede then.
 
6:02 AM
 
6:53 AM
@Machavity so it's still banned, given the temporary policy is still featured and thus, as I understand it, to be uphold. However, if you do violate the policy, there's no sanctions and the post can stay?
2
 
 
1 hour later…
8:02 AM
So far (and I'll admit I have some more re-reading of small print to do) I have seen nothing in the new AI policy announcement that in any way prohibits either moderators or 20k users from deleting AI-generated answers. All I think I've seen is stuff about mods not suspending users.
 
Hmm... out of the blue, SO logged me out. I was in the middle of posting an answer. Weird.
^ Actually maybe it wasn't spam, but the poster should know better than to post a link-only tool recommendation as answer.
 
@Lundin I think it's part of the New Policy (as yet unannounced) to prevent too many posts from Natural Intelligence.
 
8:18 AM
@AdrianMole Heh... Well, them AI that claim to be able to write source code was likely trained on SO data. And if SO starts to become AI posts, then it will get recursively dumber and dumber.
 
@AdrianMole At the very least, I am not aware of any rule prohibiting users from doing it. Moderators may do so as well, but are required to claim that the deletions are for low-quality content, at least when suspending.
 
yep. lesser copies of lesser copies of ... Honestly, I hate the concept of "Influencers" and "Content Creators" on social media platforms where 99% of them are not actually "creating" anything new, they are merely repackaging and regurgitating old content. This will be the dreadful fate for SO if AI generation is totally unleashed.
 
I think an AI trained on 100% SO data would be awesome though. No matter what question you'd ask it, it wouldn't answer but start yapping about you not providing a minimal verifiable example :)
 
Nah. 100% SO-content trained would give 95% of answers that are, "I'm having this problem, too. Has anyone been able to solve it?"
 
You ask it "can you give me the source code in Java to display the 100 first prime numbers" and it will answer "No, I'm not here to do your homework. Please post a minimal verifiable example that contains the problem. What have you tried? What results did you expect and what did you get instead?"
 
8:24 AM
@Lundin We can dream. :) AI says: "Sorry, all programming questions must include a minimum volume of 3 thousand unique unit tests."
 
@AdrianMole plus occasionally sell you on the services of a spell-caster who will get your stolen cryptocurrency to leave its mistress or something.
 
Will the AI ask if you searched before asking for help?
 
@RyanM Well, there's an automated system component that issues answering bans on posters with consistently down-voted or deleted answers. Not quite as powerful as a suspension but maybe a temporary workaround?
 
An AI trained on SO spam would also be interesting. "Can you give me the source code in Java to display the 100 first prime numbers" would get a reply: "Did you consider this great car wash service in Indonesia?"
 
Hmm. Presumably a chat-room for targeting CGPT answers with down-votes would be unacceptable? :(
 
8:30 AM
@Lundin Yeah, artificial schizophrenia. Only hope for those who afraid of roborebellions.
 
@AdrianMole Are they really that common though? Personally I only found 2 since ChatGPT was released (and a few on other SE sites).
 
that's because they're all getting deleted
there are a lot
 
@Lundin Pretty common. Especially at bountied questions.
 
Good job in that case :) Ignorance is bliss
 
@Lundin If you mean CGPT answers, then, yes, they are very common. I probably flagged 100+ such answers from the First Answers review queue.
... but none in the past 2 days.
 
8:39 AM
Hmm now actively trying to find one. Could this be one? stackoverflow.com/a/76369958/584518
 
@Lundin probably
 
It's hard to tell for such short posts and the GPT detector tools are so-so.
 
The GPT detector tools are ...pretty bad, honestly.
This one is strange, because I can't get ChatGPT to produce anything that low-quality.
 
Yeah the tool I used said it was basically 50/50 real/fake
 
So...perhaps they've found some worse AI, or they are trying to rephrase GPT content, or...who knows.
 
8:44 AM
But what seems characteristic for AI is that it starts to explain what various terms mean without you asking for it. Like "Can you give me the source code in Java to display the 100 first prime numbers" - the AI would start by yapping about what the Java programming language is.
 
ChatGPT, when asked that question, does suggest flycheck...but also explains how to use it.
However, there does not appear to be a thing called "Org Mode LSP", so this seems to be pretty clearly a hallucination.
 
9:41 AM
So much drama about the new elevator buttons across the network... I mean they sure are ugly but I don't care. People have way too much free time :)
 
@TylerH, question you VTCed discussed on meta: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/424908
 
@Lundin It's meant to distract you from more important things like allowing AI-gen content. Politicians/Gov'ts use this tactic all the time.
 
@mickmackusa I kind of doubt SO leadership is sinister/competent enough to pull off such a scheme though. They seem to be improvising as they go with no longterm plans for anything.
 
... I know. I should have trailed with /s
 
...unless, SO has been taken over by a sinister AI!
 
10:16 AM
@user16217248 thanks! looks like other meta users have already beaten me to getting it closed the right way.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:23 AM
@Lundin I could accept that SO leadership may be Artificial ... but Intelligent goes too far. xD
 
11:40 AM
Morning
 
\o
 
I see I need to make some more popcorn
 
Yep it's a potential popcorn blockbuster at meta.se... everything from AI policy to new elevator buttons.
 
ugh, don't remind me about the buttons
 
They are kinda in your face when using the sites. And I have yet to figure out which floor I should be heading to...
 
12:01 PM
@Lundin At least it makes it easier to see that the site is going down ;)
 
Elevator buttons take the UI to another level.
 
@Lundin With puns like that, you should be running for moderator.
... although softly skulking towards the picket line may be more appropriate than "running". :(
 
Too few burnination requests to vent all the bad puns.
And I'm way too grumpy to be a moderator. And way to impatient with not-very-bright people.
 
Maybe request a burnination of discussion on Meta.SE ... because that no longer seems to unambiguously define what a question is for?
 
jps
love the tags on this question ;) plz god god help!
 
12:32 PM
@Adriaan FWIW the MSE post was less black-and-white than the mod teams post. Apparently they're crafting this policy real-time
The larger issue is we didn't craft the original policy in a vacuum (staff were empathetic and supportive) and yet this came down the pike without any warning at all
 
12:51 PM
Excuse me, Machavity, I'd like to remind you that suspensions are for real, verifiable malfeasance only and not hunches, guesses, intuition, or unverified heuristics. K thx bye.
 
@IanCampbell I, for one, welcome our new community overlords
I never imagined The Jetsons would actually get something right about the 21st Century...
 
Wasn't "malfeasance" one of the characters (or two) in the Harry Potter stories?
 
@AdrianMole I want to say no, but there are some odd-named characters in there...
 
Maybe I'm getting confused with Mall Pheasants?
 
@Machavity Simpsons launched "Donald Trump gets elected as president" as a joke/doomsday scenario long before he actually got elected. There's wisdom in them cartoons :)
 
1:06 PM
@AdrianMole Are you trying to make us part of an Harry Potter movie?
 
That would be fun: Harry Potter and the Teachers' Lounge?
 
Horrible movie. I've seen the trailer
 
Will question with positively scored single answer be roomba'd if author of this answer delete answer by themself?
 
... "It looks like you are trying to cast a spell to disempower elected moderators. In order to best achieve this goal, you should first make a trivial (yet annoying) change to your UI, to distract users, then make subtle but significant changes to your site's policy without telling anyone about it."
 
Mall Pheasants vs Mallrats/
 
1:10 PM
@markalex Deleted answers aren't considered by the Roomba (at all, IIRC).
 
@AdrianMole Except they underestimated the SE users' ability to multitask and whine about multiple different things at once!
 
@AdrianMole Thank you.
 
jps
@markalex it also depends on the upvotes and number of comments on the question. But it certainly doesn't matter who deleted the answer.
simple solution, install the roomba forecaster.
 
I'm pretty sure I'm watching "The Teachers' Lounge: Judgement Day"
 
And I still don't get why everyone keeps trying to rant/communicate with SO the company after each any every fiasco update. A private company will never listen unless they realize that the users are also their paying customers, directly or indirectly. But they never realized, so it's a lost cause. It's been over 3 years since this was made clear - the problem isn't the company as such, but that it is a private company.
That's the deal of using these sites - those who don't like it can use the community-driven open source alternative. Yet nobody does, they just stay here and write page after page of rants after every new release, ranting about every single change, clearly unhappy...
 
1:29 PM
 
I think part of the problem is that they actually do listen... sometimes... For example, a suggestion I made is actually in the new CoC. And the employees are mostly nice people. You get to like them. And then you start believing that maybe, just maybe, they really do care about what you think and about the community.
 
@IanCampbell It's pretty much status quo, same as it ever was. The CM tend to listen and be generally nice and agreeable people, but they are too far down in the company hierarchy.
 
@IanCampbell I think it's the C suite that's the problem, not the rank and file.
 
They have changed pretty much the whole company staff including upper management in the past 3 years though
 
Yeah, I agree, it's probably a failure in leadership that they can't simultaneously nurture the competing goals of creating investor hype about The Next Big Thing™ and also keep the community that makes their core product appealing happy.
On the other hand, what do I know about running a social media company (or whatever you would call SO)?
 
1:42 PM
Why would they care about investors after the sale to Prosus? It's pretty obvious that Chandrasekar was appointed CEO to polish & make profitable so they could sell the company to some su-... to Prosus. But now they shouldn't need to care about investors, it's not exactly a start-up.
 
Well, I don't really understand how venture capital firms work, but I assume that if you're owned by one, you'd like to convince said firm that you're about to create the next big thing and not slowly dying as some publicly available data might suggest.
 
I sincerely have no idea why they purchased SO. For the sake of owning stuff, it would appear.
 
On that note, I wonder how long until they turn off /site-analytics.
 
public to users with 25k rep
<-- **sad slightly less than 25k rep noises**
 
2:02 PM
(Also do I flag such suspicions or not now... and if I do, do the mods know how to deal with the flags...)
 
@Lundin no
 
Perhaps we should just create a new room for archiving all AI posts until SE comes to their senses.
 
@Lundin my detector only gives it a 65% and the info isn't wrong
 
Mods should have a list of posts deleted for being AI generated. We (10k+) could inspect it and gather some actual numbers.
 
@Lundin based on the new policy, it isn't
 
2:06 PM
@NathanOliver Seems we use the same one then, but I don't trust it at all.
 
tied
 
Now which one of you two is the original and which is the sock puppet? :)
 
@Lundin I am very suspicious. Glad it's not my job to decide.
 
I just found a reasonable dupe.
 
@IanCampbell Me too but since I have to concrete evidence and found nothing wrong, I'll refrain from meddling with it.
I can however dupe hammer the question.
 
2:31 PM
@markalex thanks for the notification
 
2:46 PM
🚽
 
3:23 PM
@IanCampbell I think SO's current owner bought the firm thinking long-term strategic and they're not worried about a bump in traffic.
@IanCampbell any loss in traffic will be by 1rep noobs so overall the site will gain in quality and this might be the solution to the VLQ Qs problem everyone was asking for.
 
@IanCampbell That page requires 25,000 reputation to be viewed. Investors do not have that much reputation on SO.
Not saying they’re not getting the data anyway.
 
i'd imagine most employees don't know of its existence
 
4:00 PM
@Lundin Joel Spolsky was a good salesman, that's why
@M-- did you mean to post a del-pls? That's not a link to a review item
 
@M-- What needs reviewing?
 
4:21 PM
How long before I can repost a request? I posted some requests 10 days ago and they were ignored
 
M--
@TylerH no, I wasn't sure if that question should be deleted or preserved. So, I am asking if it should be deleted or not. cc:@Dharman
 
@user16217248 if they have been archived into the graveyard and were never fulfilled, you may re-request them. If they are still here in the room, you must wait until they are either completed or archived.
@M-- oh, ok. I misread "should this be deleted" as "should be deleted" since it was using the *-pls formatting
 
Then I don't think you should post an official request here. I have no objection to first clarifying with users in this room whether they see any potential value in retaining the question, but if you yourself are unsure then putting the judgement on other people doesn't feel right.
 
^ yeah, asking questions about the ideal outcome of a question on SO here is fine and good to do, but not in "request" ([tag:*-pls]) format.
 
@M-- I remove the request because it was confusing. If you'd like to discuss merits of the question in this room, please do so without making a request.
@user16217248 Was it ignored or did people simply not agree with your requested action. I would rather say the latter.
 
M--
4:29 PM
sure
 
It would be nice if they announced Code of Conduct updates with a diff view
 
M--
@TylerH it was asked, they ignored it pretty much (or at least I didn't see a reply to that request)
 
@Dharman Well at least one of them, 2 other Triage reviewers agreed with my requested action
@Dharman And if you think they shouldn't be closed, then please decline my close flags. But I think they should be closed.
 
Moderators don't really see close flags; close flags put questions into the close queue (if they are not already in there)
 
Recommend closure flags can't be declined by moderators even if/when we do come across them.
@TylerH Staff indicated: "Since it's an entire re-write, it's not really doable to create a diff."
 
4:39 PM
they could have at least done it for the changes since the rewrite
 
The new Code of Conduct has been released
9
 
If I resolve a review task from a close vote queue that has only recommend closure flags on it as "Leave Open"... that would mark the flag as declined, right?
 
i would expect it to be marked disputed
 
I'm tempted to try it ... for science.
 
@IanCampbell I believe so. Though Community would be the decliner not the moderator.
 
4:44 PM
Ah, indeed.
I tell you what we definitely needed in this moment. Another CEO blog about AI.
 
i'd star that if it had the /s indicator, otherwise someone might read it starred and think it isn't, given how oblivious some people seem to be
;)
 
If you're reading the SOCVR star board and can't read the sarcasm in that message, well, I guess we've failed you. =P
 
is the helm of this chat ship pointing up or down? I hope it is up because otherwise the star board would be on the port side.
 
@AdrianMole, question you VTCed discussed on meta: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/424923/21363224
 
i don't quite understand why this tag even exists.
 
4:59 PM
I know nothing about this tool or tag, but I'm inclined to agree that closing reason for this question is somewhat strange. Though more experienced in this tool users might correct me, that code for it indeed exists, and can be shown. If this is the case, I think it would be beneficial to at least mention this in comments to original question.
 
Note also that we mortals can't see what reason Adrian chose. Just that two of the three choose Needs debugging details. For all we know, Adrian chose Needs details.
Remind me not to include ✅✅✅ in my posts.
 
5:16 PM
@IanCampbell, reminder: don't include ✅✅✅ in your posts.
 
Haha, thanks
 
5:33 PM
@markalex Thanks for ticking that box there ;)
 
6:14 PM
 
6:46 PM
@IanCampbell For a community that is the basis of everything he does, he sure doesn't spend much time among them or listening to them...
3
 
i think it's fairly clear that our definition of "the community" doesn't match his
need i remind that their enterprise teams product is called "communities"
 
@StephenOstermiller Trick question: the helm is forward (i.e., directly through the screen) so that we can see where we're going by looking past the monitor. Thus, the star board is indeed on the starboard side.
@KevinB I'm not arguing that the CEO isn't out of touch here regarding all the AI stuff, but I think it's fair to talk about building a community within a company.
 
7:34 PM
We would like your feedback on whether the SOCVR room should participate in a network-wide curator and moderator strike, and if so, in what form? Think room in read-only mode, room in timeout mode, not running the clean-up script, etc. but we're sure you might have better ideas.
25
 
"not running the clean-up script" is to shoot yourself in the leg, and claim this is a strike, IMO.
"Think room in read-only mode" quite clear strike.
I don't know what "room in timeout mode" means. Explanation needed.
 
This room was placed in timeout for 10 seconds; Demo timeout mode
 
@rene What's going on?
 
that was interesting
I liked the numbers
 
Applause, end of act one.
 
7:43 PM
The strike in general is being discussed over on Discord: discord.gg/FCWJXZM
 
I don't have discord; what is the run-down?
 
@user16217248 things in the background but the AI debate is one of the issues: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389617/…, the process around the new CoC is another and there still is things to come that got a lot, if not all moderators across the network pretty upset, angry etc.
 
@rene Given that the strike is expected to be of indefinite length, a timeout doesn't seem appropriate.
 
I like it when our regulars are looking at that animation for 6 to 8 weeks ...
5
 
lol :)
 
7:54 PM
@user16217248 just SE showing a big middle finger to mods and curators - you know, the usual. Also relevant: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
 
🚽
 
I wish like Jeff Atwood didn't sell SE Inc to the current management that doesn't care about the community
 
Jeff left in 2013 or so, leaving Joel to handle it.
That is what you get with VC funding, someday they want their money back.
And now being owned by Prosus, a Dutch company, I tell you, we're not cheap.
 
It looks like current management is condoning the AI-generated answers. I agree with the help center article on Stack Overflow: 'GPT risks breaking readers’ trust that our site provides answers written by subject-matter experts.'
2
It seems the new management has been failing its community for some time now. Way back in 2020 or 2019 with Monica, and now with this.
 
8:10 PM
yeah.
 
I'm all in favor of doing a strike. I'm even thinking about doing a full stop in contributing. Still waiting on how it all shakes out before I make that decision.
 
It might indeed have that effect, as a matter of fact academia.meta.stackexchange.com/q/5283
 
oh, I see resignations have already begun. Is this the first one so far?
 
Like seriously. If we want ChatGPT answers we can just ask ChatGPT ourselves. By posting here we are already giving the message that we want answers written by subject-matter experts, or people who know what they're talking about at the very least.
4
 
8:32 PM
When the other shoe drops, so to speak, I'm almost certainly in on the strike. Not that anyone will notice if I don't delete a spam message on Medical Sciences or do some SG review tasks on SO.
 
not if you are the only one, however, if it's all of us...
 
I only missed 8 days of logging in last year and 2 days so far this year. I need a new hobby.
 
Can I post for my own edits? As long as I don't say 'Approve?'
 
8:47 PM
although arguably we should allow "Argh I screwed up, please reject my edit"
though technically the policy, as written, says you can't
 
I honestly think we should be able to retract/delete our own suggested edits. It used to be the case that we could see current reviews on our in-progress still pending reviews, but not anymore, so I no longer see how that could be used for abuse.
 
Or... you could post a burnination request (on Meta) for that travesty of a tag and fix it that way? =P
 
I think you can see the current reviews
but still, eh, just count a retraction as a reject, maybe?
or just make it so you can't see the current reviews
 
Yeah, you should be able to see the process of the reviews, it's just there aren't any yet?
 
or make it so that if you retract too many times, then an autoflag is raised
 
8:57 PM
I'm sorry, did I just hear an SO moderator ask for more autoflags?
 
Can't be much worse than auto-U/U
 
Ugh... those do sound horrible (as you probably know, not all network sites have them on).
 
No, they actually often sound quite friendly! Oh, you mean the flags, not the comments they are raised on.
 
Yeah... U/U bot has an... interesting interpretation of unfriendly.
 
Use a QTransform and map() your QPainterPath. — chehrlic yesterday
Okay this one is just funny:
C++ allows many abilities some consider to be... unnatural. — user4581301 yesterday
you're an absolute legend for this — Carter Canedy yesterday
 
9:01 PM
It's probably the most useless flag category, second to comment count and answer count auto-flags on meta posts
 
> Thank you for being a contributor to the Stack Overflow community. As a question and answer site, Stack Overflow works differently than most message boards. As such, kindly reserve the Answers feature for actual answers, not follow-up questions or comments.
@RyanM although the formatting here is unfriendly to chat, apparently...it was rendered correctly in the comment no, wait, userscript issue I think...yep, confirmed.
It also frequently triggers on, seemingly, the word "English". e.g., "This site is English-only. You are probably looking for Stack Overflow на русском."
 
Wow, that's much nicer than the auto-comment I leave for NAAs. And also the auto-comment the review task leaves. =P
 
right?! my guess is that it's doing some sort of, like, tf-idf thing and trying to figure out how "unfriendly" a given word is
it'd be super cool if they'd get their new genAI team to make the comment robot smarter
A bit of basic experimentation with ChatGPT showed pretty decent results
 
Gah, you beat me to my CEO slam. I was looking up when TF/IDF was invented.
 
1972
 
9:12 PM
You asked Chat GPT Bard (sorry, don't want to get you in trouble)?
 
Might've been before the public release of Bard, I don't recall :-p
But also if I were promoting my employer's services for this, we've had a thing for this specific thing already for years. It's free, too!
(Charcoal uses it to detect toxic posts. It's ...decent, with a few flaw patterns that are, at least, less perplexing than the Unfriendly Robot's)
 
Did you say free? Sign me up.
In all seriousness, I have nothing against your employer's AI products.
 
9:28 PM
> what tools can i sue to finish the website for clients quicker?
off-topic, belongs on Law.SE
 
9:59 PM
Is there a QuickBooks spam wave that I've missed?
 
@IanCampbell yes
 
I need to pay more attention.
 
10:15 PM
@IanCampbell In addition the the spam that's just QuickBooks related, QuickBooks was one of the products/companies used in the Fake Support Number spam. There are about seven thousand posts which are part of the Fake Support Number spam, which has been coming in as an identifiable classification for a few years now. At this point, most of it gets multiple autoflags from SD/MS.
This particular one probably was likely a spam seed, but without further information it's not possible to be certain about that. It is certain that it's off-topic and there's no reason to keep it around.
 
Yes, I suspected as much having seen those search results, but thanks for clarifying.
 
@RyanM Belongs on makes-no-sense.SE
 
 
1 hour later…
11:26 PM
 
11:39 PM
 

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