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1:19 AM
Should this resource request be deleted?
 
@gnat I'd support that so long as it was accompanied with a constructive/progressive comment. Otherwise future researchers won't know why the recommended advice is negatively scored. (I've been that researcher when trying to learn from answers outside of the tag pool.)
 
@mickmackusa Check Samuel's announcement above, I think SO might be about to go down the toilet...
 
Yes, I am VERY concerned. I got to read some diamond-gated content this morning. I don't like the direction that Stack Exchange is headed. We are going to need to have some aggressive AI / autonomous agents to close questions before AI-generated content is sprayed on new questions.
 
@mickmackusa This is gonna be bad...
 
We should now stop rewarding users with rep who answer new, closed questions. This way we won't see AI-generating contributors build "trust points" quickly. Instead, they'll only gain rep by adding content that out competes pre-existing answers based on QUALITY.
@bad_coder I am struggling to imagine a way that it won't go "bad".
 
1:35 AM
@mickmackusa If it's what I think the whole board is gonna get spam-sprayed in 30 days and there won't be any untangling except filtering by date: "posted before June 2023".
It's time to get the 🍿🍿🍿 popcorn and go on vacation.
 
And we will start to see users from certain regions (e.g. Pakistan, Iran, and Turkey, etc) ramp up their trust points. Then they will use those results to supplement their resumes.
 
If it means that it's time to take a break, then that is probably a good thing for me, personally. I spend far too much time on this site as it is.
 
The most effective way for mods to revolt would be to refuse to work the flag queues. Then headquarters would notice how much mess there is. Curation needs to be markedly incentivized/rewarded in this new chapter or much will be ruined.
2
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels I've migrated my online addiction elsewhere since earlier this year.
 
@bad_coder: ah, where have you gone?
 
1:40 AM
@HovercraftFullOfEels My wife agrees (about my time, not yours).
 
@mickmackusa: mine too
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels twitch, and I'm on a plane to Italy to have dinner with some nice folk I've met there.
 
@bad_coder: nicely done!
Italy? Wow
I expect that the announcement, when it comes, will be made on the main-site meta, not on SO meta.
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Ah the cuisine and the vibrant furious ladies :)
 
:o :o :o :o
"vibrant furious ladies"???
 
1:42 AM
@HovercraftFullOfEels going on "a fit" is considered normal there...
 
I'll have to take your word on that
 
@mickmackusa I'm sometimes reminded of how strict the CoC here is and how things would be if folks could speak their minds... What jokes and themes would dominate the upcoming meta post? What colorful language...? Ah it would be brilliant :)
 
Yes, I expect the MSE announcement will feature a meme with four horsemen.
 
@mickmackusa hahaha the SOpocalypse is upon us :)
@mickmackusa @HovercraftFullOfEels but you guys are from the US, isn't there some politically correct joke for an occasion such as this? Like: when did the important folks go to one conference too many and how did they buy into a complete nonsense idea just because of the hype fearing they'd seem backward in the eyes of out-of-touch peers were they not to jump on the bandwagon?
 
@bad_coder: it's uncharted territory for me
The joke, if there is one, is on us
That said, the company probably feels that it has to do something and must be proactive rather than reactive, because it has lost significant viewership in SO since the advent of ChatGPT. AI is causing it to lose money.
 
2:08 AM
@HovercraftFullOfEels also don't know :| we'll be around to see how it plays out o/
 
2:21 AM
too little too late
they had 10 years to address the image problem SO has
 
2:39 AM
@mickmackusa Yeah, but we've only recently gotten the flag queue down to good levels. It would be frustrating to see it skyrocket again.
 
just as frustrating as it's gonna be to watch people copy pasting answers all day
by design
 
2:54 AM
@KevinB Sorry if I missed out on something important, but do us non-mods know anything definite yet, or is it just speculation that AI generation is coming to answers?
 
all we know is what is in the pinned message
 
@gnat So, I was actually going to respond to this, and explain what you misunderstand, but in all honesty… I lost interest. I’m still around for the jokes, and the shitshow, but right now, I’m just waiting for the next announcement from the company, on Meta.
It’s quite sad. I left SE in the past, due to my anger with the company, but I was planning to stick around in the chat this time, if the time has come for us to cease activity, again.
I came back just earlier this year. Didn’t seem like anybody had really missed me; heck, nobody probably noticed I was gone. But this is still a community I enjoy being a part of, even though I’m quite invisible here.
 
my take on it is we have a lack of answerers problem. now they're going to piss off those that remain
 
So I’ll hate to see this community be torn apart, and lose the minor contact I have with people here, through discussions, arguments, curation, and stupid jokes. I don’t have anywhere else to go, which can match the community on SE.
 
3:03 AM
I’m sorry, but I need this toxic community of evil people hating everyone! Once you get to know the people here, they’re not bad! You may even realize they’re not a bunch of evil people wanting to ruin the days of others.
So please, SE: don’t ruin this. Don’t shred our community to pieces.
2
 
3:36 AM
I'm not sure about all this shredding of our community stuff. I know SE will likely make a stupid decision, and a few good people likely leave out of anger, but surely not everyone will leave. I mostly stick to and , and a lot of those questions do get answered and the askers do learn/get useful help from answerers.
Whatever SE does, I doubt it will be so catastrophic as to completely incapacitate effective moderation and helpful answering. I'm just a bit unconvinced that we're in the midst of an apocalypse.
And I bet a significant portion of those who do quit SO will come back eventually. After all, the company is incentivized financially to mitigate any situations that would lead to this community (and their business model) being so-called shredded.
 
@MichaelM. Why would anybody want to continue moderating and curating the site when they're actively sabotaging us? The apocalypse is not the direct action of SE, but the consequence of it.
@MichaelM. We have lost a fair share of people that never did return.
But all support for your point of view. I hope you're right.
 
@MichaelM. :)
 
just really sucks to see this network fall so much when we've been fighting for it for a decade+
this change isn't the cause, it's just yet another reaction
 
@MichaelM. History shows that not to be the case. The company has failed many times to be incentivized to mitigate situations that lost them large numbers of existing members in favor of rapid growth in new memberships. They've gone as far as to issue policies that were so controversial and disliked that it led to multiple moderator resignations.
 
3:54 AM
SO just needs to charge AI's which access its content. Instant revenue stream. Also SO should pivot to putting the highest priority on curation. Maybe something like: you can post N answers per day if you perform N review queue items. We don't like to limit people, we just need them to curate proportionately. If we can somehow manage to evolve users to curate more than they have ever curated before, things might not descend into madness.
 
i'm not sure that'd do much for the answer deficit that exists
 
I don't personally notice a deficit in answers/answerers.
 
prior to 2020, and all the years before, there were more answers posted on a daily basis than questions, since then it's reversed and the gap keeps widening
 
We wouldn't need so many answerers if we didn't have so many duplicate and off-topic questions distracting the user base.
 
if people aren't getting the answers they need, there's less reason to come here. Now there's an alternative that always has an answer
they waited to do something about the problem until it was too late
 
4:08 AM
Since 2015, I've noticed that every basic question has already been answered multiple times (in ). I fully expect the number of open questions to be ever reducing and that the number of answers that land on a page before it is closed should be less and less.
 
that's not really a thing;' sure, jquery answers stopped making sense. but languages that are still used today aren't stagnant unchanging systems where all of the problems people can run into can just be found. The "tool" developers needed was less what so IS today and has always been, and more what they're getting out of chatgpt. a help desk. they needed to remedy this problem years ago. Now this is just a collection of poorly worded questions with answers repeated 100's of times over ---
--- because they tried to be both at the same time without building for it.
 
4:30 AM
the "welcome wagon" may also have contributed; if downvoting and closing questions is "unwelcoming", the only remaining recourse seems to be to ignore bad questions and tweak your personal filters to only look at questions with actual upvotes
 
until SG rolls out and everything that leaves it starts out at +1
 
 
5:39 AM
@KevinB even without that probably set the threshold higher than score:1; too much junk gets random drive-by upvotes
 
 
1 hour later…
7:06 AM
If you are an RO for this room, please check the slack backchannel.
 
As an update to Sam's earlier message: The current consensus of the SO moderator team is that we will not be declining any flags on AI-generated raised in good faith by community members, and we don't expect you to change your flagging behavior unless and until the company makes a public announcement (i.e., one that you can see) of the policy.
17
So far, they've only "communicated" things to us in private, which we cannot share with you, so these cannot be the basis of any policy-change by the larger community, and we mods refuse to punish you (the community) because the company is not following their own established policy, per the Moderator Agreement.
You may see that your flags on AI-generated content are handled more slowly or even deferred entirely, based on the mod team's judgment and depending on how things play out. How we will approach this has not entirely been decided, and this is a situation that is still changing. (At least, we are hoping it is still changing.) But that's not your issue to be concerned with, as flaggers. Certainly not yet.
However, as we have in the past, we continue to advise caution in relying solely on "AI detector" tools, because these tools tend to produce results that are fairly inaccurate (e.g., false positives). Instead, please take into account other heuristics and use your natural intelligence. Policy discussions aside, these make for better and more accurate flags.
6
 
@CodyGray confusing times ...
 
Indeed. I didn't see that Sam had posted that message in here. I thought it was only in the AI chat room, where I'd already replied. So I decided to post in here, too.
Today (Monday) was a holiday in the United States, so a lot of the US-based mods were not even paying attention today, like myself. Our reaction is therefore quite delayed.
 
7:25 AM
 
@tripleee rep-desperate contributors undermine the "ignore bad questions" strategy.
 
Do we flag this as spam or just close as not about programming? stackoverflow.com/questions/76362448/…
@jps Why offensive? It's just very low quality...?
 
@Lundin It definitely looks like spam, looking at the big picture.
 
7:41 AM
@CodyGray Ok I will flag it then.
 
Hope you were quick. :-)
@Lundin Generally, posts that are completely content-free and contain nothing but gibberish are eligible for "rude/abusive" flags. In my estimation, that would have counted. (Detractors may argue it wasn't completely content-free, since it had a link to an image of code, which isn't suitable for SO, but arguably makes it not totally gibberish.)
 
So better keep your cats off the keyboard I guess...
 
Yes, definitely. Or at least teach them not to hit the "Post Your Question" button.
 
These things do happen when the cat is chasing the mouse.
 
jps
@Lundin yep, as Cody already wrote, posting gibberish instead of content is offensive.
 
7:51 AM
So is begging for someone else to do your entire homework... yet such posts aren't flagged as rude/offensive.
 
Waffles.
 
jps
I don't disagree, but gibberish is more obvious R/A and I don't want to get too many declined flags.
 
@Enet4 That was a riveting question about the .
@Lundin No, because that's not content-free, so it's not an abuse of this platform.
 
@CodyGray Interesting. I'd usually spot vandalisms, but this time I really overlooked that it was an edit.
 
7:59 AM
@Enet4 Oh, ooops. Me too. I was making a joke about the seemingly-irrelevant-but-highly-specific tag...
 
In any case, serves them well. The door is good for people with this attitude in my book.
 
Yeah, but I used the wrong door.
 
jps
8:18 AM
@markalex I guess you meant NAP ;)
 
Yes, of course. I keep mixing them up for some reason(
 
jps
questions are per definition NAA ;)
 
Is this spam? stackoverflow.com/q/76362882 It started out as nonsense and then a bunch of suspicious words were edited in.
 
@khelwood yes, that payment service is a known spammer
 
 
1 hour later…
jps
9:28 AM
@tink that's NAP
 
10:00 AM
 
10:35 AM
 
11:23 AM
@Adriaan The Q has been edited by the OP and image links removed
 
Can a RO move this request? OP edited.
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, per request
 
12:03 PM
Morning
 
1:00 PM
 
1:19 PM
based on the stars in this chat room, this is relevant.
 
(no oneboxes, please) (but yes, it's definitely relevant)
 
@RyanM sorry, not a frequent visitor here. tnx for fixing.
 
np. added bonus: it'll show up more readably in the starboard this way.
 
2:21 PM
 
2:51 PM
@NathanOliver @TylerH @Dharman @RyanM when it fits your schedule please check the RO back channel. (/cc @Makyen and @Machavity for completeness but you both are up-to-speed)
 
3:05 PM
ugh, the new vote button styled was applied :(
 
Who moved my cheese?
 
i can barely see the circle outline, so it just looks to me, at first glance, as if they just made the arrows smaller and more spread out
 
They're really ugly and noisy. They scream for attention. I try reading the posts, but my eyes are constantly drawn to the voting buttons.
 
am I crazy, or is the up/down icon inside the circle is annoyingly slightly off-balance?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine There's an answer about it on MSE; The circle has a 1-pixel center; the arrow has a 2-pixel center.
 
3:08 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Does the gap on the bottom look larger to you?
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship thought so... thanks
 
The upper arrow doesn't even seem to be horizontally centered.
 
@NathanOliver yes, and vice versa for the up button. That's because there is a color density imbalance due to the inner icon being a triangle, but they did not adjust the positioning to account for that...
 
And the upper arrow seems to be drawn to the left, while the lower one is drawn to the right...
No, wait, it's random for every post.
 
At least the downvote button works ... it is not just a mock-up.
 
3:14 PM
@rene don't jinx it.
 
The MSE comment archive just entered rush hour.
 
Anyone care to weigh in on my alternative proposal?
 
@Spevacus Please swipe left and right.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship So Stack Overflow is a dating website after all!
 
@Spevacus Does anybody have any idea which way means yes, and which way means no?
 
3:21 PM
@Spevacus well, if you support RTL, then yes, would be fun to try it out :)
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Psh, who cares about that? Vote on questions based on how far left or right on the political spectrum they are.
 
@NathanOliver it's hideous
even with my other styles already applied
 
I wonder if there really is correlation between the new voting button style and people voting more.
Can we really track an increase in voting activity with a stylistic change?
 
@Spevacus Well, you can generally track that, yes, assuming changes are made in an atomic way and tracking metrics are in place before and after
One very basic metric that is easily measured is: what percentage of page views by users result in an upvote click before the change vs after.
From there you can get more in-depth like based on the reputation of the user, where the user came from (did they land on the question from the front page, from a google search, from an internal side search, linked from another question/answer, etc.), are they upvoting questions or answers, how long were they on the page before they upvoted, etc.
@CodyGray I thought I had seen the last of this tag... please don't torture me with airbnb tags anymore :-(
 
@TylerH what, you mean this excellent question isn't a stellar example of tagging and MREs?
 
3:37 PM
@NathanOliver and then: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389563 ... you would think a designer spend some time to get the contrast right for all themes ...
 
@RyanM Oh, of course it's another lottie question too
 
@rene it would be nice if history would give me cause to think that they would, in fact, check the contrast in more than one theme.
 
2021 was filled with cleanup of airbnb and lottie related questions
 
@TylerH an Android lottie question, completely unrelated to JS...
 
JavaScript is related to everything. Just ask Tyler's local community.
 
3:42 PM
@CodyGray this seems by design, perhaps...
@Andreasdetestscensorship especially Java
@RyanM Lottie is never related to JS IIRC, only Android or iOS
 
@RyanM SE designer chat: Wait! We have themes?
 
oh wait, that's right, there are React versions of Lottie too now
 
How do you React to that?
 
@rene By going Native?
 
I'm sorry, but you have now officially insulted all native humans.
 
3:47 PM
I'm wondering if we can't flag stuff as AI generated, can we not just continue flagging it as unsourced content and link to the generator detection tools? I mean is there data on how inaccurate these detectors are?
as is being claimed all of a sudden
I haven't been keeping close track of the AI or GPT scene but this is the first I've heard of "the detectors are known to be wildly inaccurate at times"
 
i mean
 
Without commenting on the policy changes, yes, the detectors are wildly inaccurate. At least the Hugging Face one definitely is, and AICheatCheck can't even return consistent results on the same text.
 
@RyanM They're tools, and like every tool, must be used correctly, and with dignity.
 
of course, but people see "99% chance of being AI generated" and think it means ...well, that.
 
@TylerH FWIW, we've noticed for a while CGPT will gladly copy code from manuals. If you catch someone plagiarizing, flag it as that and note you're referring to the code
 
3:50 PM
when really it is maybe, like, 60%.
 
So the issue is clarity of the limits of our tools, not a ban of them.
 
It's...a long story, and I can't get into it without revealing mod information, and also I really need to go back to sleep.
 
@TylerH Check the starred messages in the private AI room.
 
@RyanM See you in 8 hours then ;)
 
@TylerH But yeah, from my archive of "curators whose posts detect as 99%+ on Hugging Face": 99.87%, 99.05%, 99.54%, 99.49%, 99.47%, 99.69%, 99.95%
(Note, in case it's not clear: this is not a commentary on those users; I do not believe that any of these are actually GPT-created. Especially the one I wrote. Pretty darn sure of that one.)
 
3:59 PM
@RyanM Proof that the curators can be replaced by AI
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship well, OK, fine... I'll request access to that room
 
@TylerH Oh. Thought you were on the list of the now huge list of people with access.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship The list is huge, because it contains all SE mods with an SO chat account.
 
@RyanM ah, interesting. I have not seen openai-openai-detector--g5s42.hf.space have such false positives before
@Andreasdetestscensorship No, I did not request access when I first learned about it, several weeks ago
 
@TylerH either someone just added you or you do in fact have access already
 
4:03 PM
someone just added me
likely due to my access request submission
 
darn ninja moderators. Okay sleeptime for real now.
oh also: that confirms that non-RO moderators lurking in a room do not see access requests
 
4:18 PM
 
The downvote buttons look ugly now
 
@JeanneDark you might like: meta.stackexchange.com/a/389568
 
@JeanneDark No sharp edges to cut yourself on, anymore. Just a big circle to land flat in.
 
What's with SE's overuse of !important, and why is it bad to overuse it like that? I remember seeing in here that the abuse of it is no bueno, I'm just not sure why that's the case.
 
thanks
 
4:31 PM
@Spevacus Spaghetti tastes good.
 
4:47 PM
@rene thanks for that link, my eyes have been bleeding today
 
@jps sorry, can't see what that's referencing .. NAP?
 
The transcript view is quite stupid in that regard… It’s incredibly annoying.
 
@Spevacus The C in Cascading Style Sheet is the whole point. Adding !important is basically saying: screw the cascading, put me on top.
 
Odd choice to abuse that, then.
 
jps
5:04 PM
@tink NAP is Not About Programming. One of your CV's this morning was "needs more focus", but in my opinion the question was off-topic (NAP)
 
@jps oic ... ah well =}
 
@Spevacus It is lazy or poor design
It is used to say "make this style apply no matter what" instead of writing a correct CSS selector to apply the style in a more 'professional' way.
 
I wouldn't even include the "lazy" option when it's used as much as SE does (example where 1 out of 9 applied rules doesn't use !important). I would include "lazy" as an option when !important is rarely used.
2
 
The problem from a development perspective is that you make it harder for yourself down the road as other styles start to conflict. E.g. "wait, why isn't this style working?" Thirty mins later... "Oh, I have this !important declaration 500 lines up..."
The problem from an end user perspective is you make it harder for people to write their own styles (e.g. via Stylus or similar browser add-ons). They can't write their own styles to override something if it has !important. Or, they have to use !important themselves to do so
@Makyen I agree, though I was referring to the use of !important in general, not specifically WRT its use in SE's styles
For SE's styles it's definitely poor design
What irks me the most is when I see it in inline styles in an element's style attribute. That's... fun... to deal with
 
6:21 PM
Is there a list of SE sites with non-standard domains?
I know of SO, Ubuntu, SF, SU, Stack Apps, but not sure about others
 
Might have to cv-pls that for being a recommendation request :)
 
dbc
@TylerH You can see some of them in Add data.SE style "magic links" to comments
 
6:34 PM
OK, my stack app is updated to apply the old styles network-wide now for the buttons
in case anyone can't stand the new ones
 
@TylerH Yes, all the aliases should be available from the SE API.
Oh, you want the list for a userscript. That's different and you already resolved it.
 
6:52 PM
@Makyen :-)
 
7:21 PM
MetaSmoke giving 502, only me or is it broken?
 
@MarcoBonelli They probably took it offline in protest
 
Offline for maintenance, not yet related to any sort of strike.
6
 
7:54 PM
In case anyone was wondering what the furor running around is about, moderators are now heavily restricted in removing AI-generated content
21
 
@Machavity mods are suspending people based on hunches of AI authorship and the company doesn't like that, therefore AI content is now allowed. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
 
8:11 PM
@TylerH AI is the future of community
 
8:46 PM
@Spevacus perfect :D
"This standard of evidence excludes the use of moderators' best guesses based on users' writing styles and behavioral indicators" if a poster consistently produces low-quality spam-like machine-generated generic text, that's consistent with ChatGPT - it probably is ChatGPT.
Quaks like duke, walks like duck - probably is duck.
 
@bad_coder now we need the duck to say that they are a duck. And also are not allowed to ask it if it is a duck.
2
 
@AntonMenshov raising standard of duck typing :|
2
 
some real clusterduck is happening. I am just not sure if I am overreacting or underreacting.
2
 
@AntonMenshov we cannot type your reaction on hunches or educated guesses, decide and clearly state if your reaction is AI generation.
 
@TylerH Pretty much
FWIW, there were some mods who were erring on the side of banning first. But rather than talk to us, they just issued an edict
And as I've mentioned elsewhere, there are more shoe drops where that came from. I don't think any of them will go over well
 
8:57 PM
At least they have taken a stance that Duck Typing is no match for Static Typing...
Permission to use expletives and big, fat middle fingers in responses to SE now? I know the answer, but you get my mood.
 
@Machavity Shoe drops plural? Great.
 
@AntonMenshov you might be underducking.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine that I have no doubts about.
 
Better duck for cover :)
 
Kind of feels like a nuclear strike, yeah.
 
9:06 PM
Dunno, but I've been using google translate lately and finite-state-transducer translations don't feel anything like AI generated content... I'm not convinced the company looked at false positives correctly.
 
I doubt they looked at all. They probably just ran a detector over a list of legitimate posts, then used the results to justify a conclusion that was made in advance.
 
@Spevacus I forgot the CoC changes are already out in public
So single
 
@Machavity Are the shoes dropping, or will SE be whacking us over the head with them again?
3
 
9:30 PM
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine does orbital bombardment with shoes count as dropping them?
 
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine Probably the latter, sadly
 
At the risk of over-hyping, I've got my shoe popcorn ready.
2
 
9:54 PM
 
10:13 PM
 
 
2 hours later…
11:47 PM
@M-- I think needs more focus or at the very least needs details. We’d need way more information about the app to answer.
 

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