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2 hours later…
02:18
a pre-meta poll: "Is it reasonable to ask for the ability to cast a delete vote on a fresh question regardless of the vote tally if I can find 5 duplicates for it?" I find myself able to often 5xDupe Hammer questions every day -- and these posts are STILL collecting answers before they are closed! e.g. stackoverflow.com/q/68765794/2943403
...if so and by extension, should I be able to request delete votes on a 5xDupe question in this room?
@mickmackusa Just close it fast, and get it on -1
It will happen, eventually. It's not like it needs to happen now
(I would also ask for roomba to delete anything <= 0 score)
I had forgotten why I left SO years ago. All it took to remember was asking a question here lol.
I cannot be online 24-7. I am already over-extending myself and burning out. I am outnumbered by people who do not close these easy dupes. I need more tools features. I think I am going to revisit my pitch for meta.stackoverflow.com/q/397526/2943403
I don't really understand why my post was closed: stackoverflow.com/questions/68765895/…
I didn't see any dupes and I couldn't post the data in the post due to char limits.
@KernelPanic Please understand that SO is not a Help Desk. We are actually trying to build a repository of knowledge. If your question is not minimal, complete, and verifiable, then we actually want to discard it and move our attention to other questions that are fit for the ultimate goal.
We never want to click a link that sends us to a pastebin with 15000 repetitions of the same string.
02:28
Sometimes you have to read through log files to debug shit lol.
I see you've also deleted the one comment that was attempting to help too.
So cheers to that ig.
Who deleted a comment? Not me.
idk but I assume you can check some kind of logs
Non-mods cannot see deleted comments.
Multiple non-mods can flag a comment for removal.
02:43
...and here is an example of 5xDupe that now has 2 Reopen votes -- despite my 5th dupe target having an accepted answer with the exact same technique as the accepted answer in the new page. stackoverflow.com/q/68731683/2943403
03:34
@KernelPanic The issue is basically a typo: your print statements String arrayString = Arrays.toString(rgbVal); System.out.println(arrayString); are in the outer loop, but not the inner loop. So you're only printing the last pixel of each line to the console.
It's worth noting that had you created a minimal reproducible example that could fit in a Stack Overflow post, you probably would have noticed the problem, because the data would be small enough for you to see the pattern of what was happening.
This is why that rule exists. Reading through huge offsite logs to debug what ends up being a misplaced print statement only helps one person who probably could have debugged it themselves. The goal of a Q&A site is to help the next n people who have the same problem. Unfortunately, misplaced print statements aren't a problem well-suited to that model, because the symptoms will be different in almost every case.
5
 
1 hour later…
 
2 hours later…
06:44
Still buggy: imgur.com/a/Qjel1f3
08:08
Is this question really on-topic?! stackoverflow.com/questions/68671074/… It's about pricing of Dialogflow...
@Dada I would call that customer support
@tripleee Thanks for the meta link. It's quite unfortunate that this question received 2 answers still.
Yay collectives I guess :x
The SD report with the misleading link, is that spam?
jps
jps
@Dada as long as a question isn't closed, nothing stops people from answering. But no worries, in 10 days it will be deleted by roomba
@jps Unless OP accepts an answer or if some answers are upvoted (and given that random upvotes are somewhat frequent...)
jps
jps
08:23
@Dada that's right, but we have del-votes for that
@JeanneDark at least it has a quite suspicious link (which I didn't click!). I spam flagged it.
thanks
09:36
^ I have a deleted answer on that, IIRC that's acceptable?
@tripleee yes, that's acceptable
Do you just like belittling people?
Is this acceptable? :)
FAQ #15: "For questions and answers: You are "involved" in the question and all answers to the question if you are the author of the question or the author of any non-deleted, non-community-wiki answer on the question."
@E_net4 acceptable to write it down or to like it? ;)
thanks for the quick confirmations
@JeanneDark Is it acceptable to accept things?
Nice spam seed
09:50
Too slow though
could be just a confused luser ... except the tags give it away
was a fairly good choice though. Coffee is a good supplement to your diet.
Not sure where would fit in though. Snake oil?
sta
sta
@E_net4 why not ? its a skeleton, fully diet, no fat
10:22
in my flags, what's the difference beteeen "waiting for review" and "pending"? I guess the latter means somebody reviewed it but no action has been taken, whilst the former means nobody has looked at it yet?
it's weird that I can't zoom to the pending flags
10:41
@mickmackusa Isn't it eligible for deletion already.
@tripleee Something something mod queue/review queue something?
10:58
@Braiam it wasn't, now it is. Thanks for the ping.
11:32
So, late answers is becoming another low quality post queue, and won't allow flagging as spam...
 
1 hour later…
12:54
@mickmackusa No. The restriction exists for a reason. Don't rush deletion. Set a reminder, or simply just close and move on. Maybe someone else will see it two days later and decide to delete. If not, then you can leave it and focus on things that can easily be deleted. The only questions that need to be deleted by 20k+ are the ones that actively harm the community and are beyond editing to make on-topic. Everything else can wait or be picked up by roomba.
13:23
@Dharman OK. Thank you. :)
@RyanM OK. I will check next time. Thank you. :)
13:44
spam + abusive
@Dharman it is my opinion that answering basic, multi-duplicates is an abuse of the system because it generates unnecessary content bloat and actively prevents the roomba from doing its job. Quickly deleting these pages benefits the site because...
1. It removes entries from review queues.
2. Teaches askers to look harder before asking.
@mickmackusa I don't think you will find much support for those features in particular. You can already cast delete votes (and request del-pls here) on such questions regardless of the score after only 48 hours of closure.
3. Teaches answerers that there will be no rep gain to FGITW-answering duplicates and closable questions.
There is no demonstrated need to delete them earlier than that 48 hour period
Then maybe we should be deleting answers. If you see an answer being reposted then I think it's ok to request a deletion in this room
13:52
If rep gained from answer scores were locked in after 48 hours, then sure I would agree we would need some stronger countermeasures, but rep from answer scores is not locked in until several months.
Re 3. They will lose the reputation anyway. 1 hour, 2 days or 30 days doesn't matter. They won't keep the reputation and they will see a notification about question removed
I do not set reminders. I have tens of tabs open on the browser of my phone. It is a chore to revisit after 2 days, when the eventuality is exactly the same.
You only keep rep from an answer that was visible for at least 60 days with a score of >= 3 when it's deleted, IIRC
@JeanneDark I think it's 60 days
When a dog does a poo on your carpet, you have an easier time grooming the dog to not poo on the carpet if you address it asap.
13:54
We are not moderators and we do not deal with grooming users
There are some who think that deleting anything from Stack Overflow is pointless
@Dharman Yes, thanks. I corrected the message. I had given the correct criteria before.
We already have a voting system. Questions that are useless duplicates rarely show up in searches
The fact that "we do not deal with grooming users" is part of the reason we have so many perpetual problems.
13:56
I am all for deletion, but I see so much stuff laying around for years that really should be deleted, I don't think that discussion expedited deletion of duplicates is constructive.
Things like this ^ question should have been removed quickly. Letting people keep reputation for that would be terrible
I don't see the benefit of waiting 2 days to do the same thing that will invariably happen.
Askers might not understand why their on-topic question got immediately removed
they might have also asked for something which got misunderstood
Sometimes I decide to delete question that is an obvious duplicate and has an answer accepted. I know that the question definitely is a duplicate and OP saw the answer.
Different actions waste different resources and a 20k+ user may then no longer be able to, let's say, vote to delete a problematic but unflaggable answer, because they used their votes on a post a 10k+ user could have voted to delete also a few days later, or even worse, Roomba would have deleted 10 days later.
If you are rationing your del votes, sure, that's fine. I never seem to hit my daily max, so I spend them carefree. I accept that roomba qualifying pages don't need to del-pls'ed.
If an asker's question was misunderstood, -3 downvoted, closed, then deleted; then they can learn from that mistake, read How to Ask, and post a new question.
Unless they got question banned
14:04
Then they have made too many mistakes.
@mickmackusa If you would like to focus on user behavior and have more expanded voting capabilities I would recommend running for moderator in the next SO election :-) The pains you've expressed seem like personal ones (e.g. "I'm stretched too thin already", "I can't keep track of questions that long", etc.) rather than system/design ones.
There is no way that I would be elected. I'm not "nice" enough. Becoming a moderator is not a cure for being stretched to thin.
...that's like having a baby to save a marriage.
@mickmackusa Not everybody can be as nice as Cody ;)
3
@mickmackusa Whether you think you would be elected or not is a matter of opinion. Some users who I would bet $10,000 would never be elected have been elected moderator, so I would strongly suggest you hedge those bets against yourself ;-)
Cody, as far as I know, has the redeeming quality of being smart.
I can already hear the questions during my candidacy: Can you explain these 55 snarky comments that you posted in the past?
14:18
Anyway, re: being stretched thin, removing blocks on fast deletion isn't a solution there. The reason deletion has the restrictions it does is to allow for more community attention/involvement, not less. If a question has multiple upvotes, that's a signal that the community thinks it is useful, and maybe not a duplicate. It's much harder to get stuff reopened/undeleted than closed/deleted.
@mickmackusa Well, sounds like you need to delete some of your snarky comments, then :-P
Some people screenshot and archive snarkiness. Once something hits the digital space, I assume it never dies.
The bottom line is we are not likely to loosen our restrictions on del-pls, unless the site rules around deletion change in that regard. And whether they can be changed in that regard is a question to pose to Meta, not to us. On a personal level, maybe consider shrugging off some of the burden you feel for being responsible for deleting PHP duplicates. I promise you there are plenty of other users who like to delete PHP questions, too.
I don't even know which page I am arguing for deletion of anymore. I assume that it is a multi-duplicate that will not roomba. 2 days or not, we can delete it and waiting won't change the outcome one iota.
Multi-duplicate posts do get reopened. It has happened to all of us, I am sure.
As sure as the closer is that it's a duplicate, presumably the reopen voter(s) are just as sure that it is not.
That's part of a democratic two-way system.
...and there lies my irritation. I am putting in the effort to curate and others are defying reason and no t focusing on making a better SO.
14:24
I personally have several questions bookmarked that were going to be eligible for delete votes, but then got reopened by others after I closed them.
I use multi-hammering to defend the obviousness of a duplicate.
i just move on after casting the close vote
quantity is always more productive
Explaining my multi-hammer: stackoverflow.com/questions/68765794/…
@EricAya NAA above it by same user
@mickmackusa yep, already flagged
thx
@KenWhite is it NAA? I'm not sure if I agree. Vague? Sure. Low-value? Likely.
14:30
@mickmackusa this is part of the issue; the way you're framing "the other side" as being wrong rather than just having a different, equally valid opinion. Regarding "multi-hammering", adding more duplicate targets doesn't necessarily make your argument that it's a duplicate stronger (e.g. "so that no one can argue with me that it's not a duplicate"). It just means you think there are more duplicate targets... but others might disagree on all of them just as easily as they disagree on one of them.
They are often wrong
Again, it can be frustrating, but that's part of a democratic two-way system... there's usually going to be people who disagree with you who have a vote, too.
code is often wrong
multiple duplicate targets can make the argument weaker
2
The only way to circumvent that, right or wrong, is to elevate your privileges in the system (e.g. become a moderator) or fundamentally change the system (have SO redesign its system to make it significantly harder to reopen closed questions, etc.)
14:32
@TylerH Re: allowing for more community attention/involvement, that is the problem, actually. The more idiots have a say in curation process, the harder it is to curate. The privilege to cast delete/undelete/close/reopen votes should be awarded based on a different metric from reputation points; not everyone should be involved content curation.
And now with the new rule, once my dupes are killed, I cannot vote to close again.
@oguzismail Sure, I agree quality is not something that the masses can ensure, I am simply talking about how the system is :-)
hasn't that always been the rule?
you lose your close vote, unless it ages away
@JeanneDark Giggle! :=)
very early on you didn't even get it back when it aged away
14:34
Yes, it's both been a system enforcement and an SOCVR rule that you cannot re-vote or re-request action on a post you've acted on. We did recently clarify the rule to remove some confusion, though.
The end goal is to avoid close/reopen or del/undel wars, which don't achieve anything other than getting factions of users pissed off at each other and making more work for moderators
i'd rather never get a mod involved, that always results in it being left open.
not always
my anecdotal experience is that it results in closure/deletion as often, if not more often, than reopening/undeletion
at worst such questions get historically locked, which at least serves to prevent more votes and answers (and has a message that it's not an example of good content for the site, for the 3 people who read such messages)
@mickmackusa It starts with I realize this doesn't answer your question, and then goes on to not answer the question at all. IMO, that's the definition of NAA.
@TylerH I love the note in the parenthesis, since it recognizes how unsuccessful is the lock in doing anything productive for the site.
@KenWhite That should be at most a comment, in the lines of "your problem with X exists because you shouldn't be using X at all"
@JeanneDark I would say that multiple dupe targets is either a symptom of a too broad question (you need to read several questions to be able to solve your issue) or that the corpus of questions aren't properly curated and content is scattered in multiple questions
@Braiam I agree it would be fine as a comment to the original question, which is what I said in the comment I left on the non-answer when voting to delete. That's one of the purposes for which comments were created in the first place - to provide a space for suggestions or clarification requests without misusing the answer space.
14:46
@Braiam The lock is highly effective. The message is less so, and is what my parenthetical was entirely about
A lock is no more effective than deletion
@TylerH Effective at doing what exactly? That's why I qualified my comment with "unsuccessful is the lock in doing anything productive for the site".
@KevinB The lock is effective at framing garbage, deletion is effective at taking the garbage out ;)
@Braiam the point of a lock is to prevent further interactions from regular users. It is the most effective method of achieving that, more so than deletion (which can be undone by 3+ regular users)
I feel like some people have lost sight of what this place is supposed to be
(The one exception is if a moderator does the deleting)
Most locks are temporary, but in cases where a question has historical value, it's given a permanent historical lock rather than a temporary one
14:50
"value"
@TylerH Yeah, if that's your objective. My objective is to get garbage out of the system and the lock alone prevents that. We can archive both goals if we delete and lock the post too, if you want to find a compromise between both objectives.
@Braiam sure, but locked posts can only be deleted by moderators, and mods usually don't lock posts after they are deleted.
So it's not feasible for that to be considered an "ideal" situation
@Braiam My remark was inspired a bit by Should I hammer a question by using multiple different canonicals? and the discussions it's based on.
What I don't consider feasible is that we keep trash on the site.
@KevinB errr?
@KevinB please edit the message to remove the one-box, per our rules
14:56
toolate
i tabbed away to meta
If a question is mentioned in an answer on MSO, would one be allowed to post a cv-pls request for it?
binned per our no-onebox rule
(some context for linking to random posts is also considered generally appropriate/expected)
@JeanneDark It's technically not under discussion but I'd personally avoid doing it.
Dunno if ROs have a different idea, though.
thanks
@JeanneDark does it fall under our normal rules for what's eligible for cv-pls?
e.g. active within 6 months or being used as a bad example for good content?
15:00
yes
I just saw a new answer posted on MSO and followed the link and then thought...
Then it is OK, so long as it is only referenced in the answer and not under active discussion, itself.
(link unrelated to question despite appearances, spam)
thanks
Mod was faster and already closed it (my request)
15:34
If I come across a post with , whould I add to it?
@Scratte I personally would, but I am not active in that tag
Ok. But why? There's lots of java users that know nothing of spring-boot. But no spring-boot experts that doesn't know about java. I mean that's my argument for not doing it. I'm looking for one to do it ;)
@Scratte My reason in general is that some library tags go on questions where the issue is the language, not the library. Since Spring Boot is unavoidably Java, I think putting the tag on, and letting Java subscribers decide (whether they can help) is correct
I don't feel strongly about it though
OK. Fair enough.. how about a suggested editor (< 2K) that is doing this a lot?
To be honest, I generally Skip those review tasks, since I'm not quite agreeing with the additional tag and.. they can only have 5 pending edit. I'm evil that way >;)
blindly?
or are they fixing other things wrong with the post too
15:39
Well.. all spring-boot posts are in java, no? I didn't check how blindly it is.
Looking at the latest one it seems they have missed a few grammatical issues and capitalization opportunities.
i'm not familiar with spring-boot, but in the react + javascript case, there's certainly questions that are so specific to react that the general javascript tag isn't necessary
but... i'd prefer they have it anyway for dupe closure reasons
I have no idea how to answer a spring-boot Question, so for me, it's just annoying when the java tag is added. But I can live with a little annoyance on my part.
Looking at their last 12 suggested edits, that's all they do. Add the tag.
15:54
Spam or VLQ? The URL (the real URL, not the visible link) has a spammy referrer in it. stackoverflow.com/a/68775215/2227743
After inspection, spam it is.
Has the 'wonky' alignment of buttons like "Advanced Flagging" been around for long? I only just noticed it today. (Another UI update?) Screenshot: i.sstatic.net/YxkZ5.png
16:36
It's since today
16:50
@AdrianMole Had to fix it in one of my userscripts. They've changed the class of the class that the items under the questions have from grid--cell to flex--item
@VLAZ We need a Userscipt Users' UI Approval Committee.
@AdrianMole I feel like SE would ignore the will of the Userscript Council.
Maybe a userscript that hires/fires staff? ... Oh, wait a minute ...
@Vega I think somebody was very confused in where they post a question. Or how to post a comment.
16:54
@VLAZ They did the effort to do a meaningful edit, though
Mostly a good edit.
17:05
Since we are on quarantine I have enough time to answer this question
18:02
Is this NAA? (Natty reported the other non-answer.)
18:14
@AdrianMole It's not great, but it's "enough" of an answer IMHO.
I guess it depends on whether or not a guess counts as an answer. It tend to think they do.
they do, but they're always low quality
18:48
@NathanOliver I added some more links below your comment
<thumbs up>
19:13
I have updated the manual recently and now all these excerpts are out of date
19:35
@Scratte No, they could also be Kotlin, for example.
🚽
20:14
Hi ppl. I asked a question on stackoverflow and it immediately was downvoted. It happened many times with questions I asked and nobody leaves a comment on why the question is downvoted. Can someone take a look at the question and say what's wrong with it?
oh, ok. I just got notification. Closed. This question needs to be more focused. It is not currently accepting answers.
i wouldn't mind looking and making suggestions
@blablaalb I don't know, but did you ever visit the help center and read the topics on how to ask questions?
looks like more of a... conceptual question
@blablaalb It doesn't look programming related. Maybe Stack Overflow is just not the right place for it?
20:20
It's related to programming. Similar question have been asked on stackoverflow, @Dharman I'l ask the same question on softwareengineering, maybe it's more suited there
thanks
doing a few sample queries there definitely turns up quite a few well received questions on that topic
Yeah, architecture questions don't tend to be well-received on SO these days, in part because there's now a better place for them on Software Engineering.
Sadly, we can't just migrate them with close votes any more because a lot of them (not yours) are just kind of ...bad, and it lead to a lot of low-quality questions getting dumped there.
@blablaalb I doubt if in its present form the question is answerable, anywhere. Also, I think a topic like this should be well covered in Clean Architecture articles. I think the main idea is that messages are mediated. Core won't ever say: send an email but it will send some sort of event that a message should be relayed. The subscriber to the event knows how.
Understood, but if for example it needs to read a file from the file system does it fires an event and just waits for the Infrastructure layer read the file pass it to the Core? The event in theory should be fired before and after completion of some action. @GertArnold
being out of votes sucks
20:30
yes, especially when no one really explain why it was downvoted
i mean, out of votes that i can cast
i've used my 40
well, 42
@blablaalb I don't think this room is the place to discuss this any further, but you see what happens: even in a short dialog like this the question fans out. That's why Stack Overflow questions should be pretty narrow an not opinion-based. Again, please read the help center.
understood, thank you for help
20:44
I'd probably call that one general computing; anyone installing Kali on a server is surely not a professional
OK, spent a bit more time on my profile, finally got it back to normal: i.sstatic.net/3VGWx.png
At some point I'll have to spin the styles and the Legacy Profiles user script into one user script of my own
@KevinM.Mansour yes
OK. Thank you. It just looks like a question about Linux, that's why I asked. :)
21:02
@KevinM.Mansour it seems to ask about the difference in behavior of malloc on different kernels/OS. Given the answer I expect it to be a bug in their code as valgrind is a tool to detect malloc/free mismatches and similar stuff IIRC.
 
2 hours later…
22:39
@Machavity I had, though it totally slipped my mind at the time. Definitely a better fit, good call (though it would be okay on Law, it's better on OpenSource).

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