« first day (2559 days earlier)      last day (1483 days later) » 
00:00 - 23:0023:00 - 00:00

00:00
Now that it's gone through a vote cycle of delete/undelete, I wonder if OP can still delete it?
10K'ers can delete if they just wait a while. The reason they cannot delete fast if because it's only meant to be used in special circumstances. Un-deleting is a little different.
Ok, but please flag the comments.
@AdrianMole I'm sure they can. I do not think the cycle changes anything.
But.. the reopen vote is a puzzle to me.
@Dharman several ways, high-rep voting rings and mass posting duplicate answers (pretty simple). Besides, if you know half a do<en high-traffic libraries (not only 1 standard library) you can basically get all the rep you want posting the same set of answers.
@Steve Sure, use your privileges as you see fit. I'm not really in a position to comment on that, I'm learning the ropes myself. However, to address your last point, you can help the OP edit the post into shape after it's closed. There is no reason to wait to close the post at all.
00:02
Comment clean-up completed.
@cigien I tend to not flag a post if it just needs a minor clarification. On the sole reason that it's always harder to get a post re-opened, than to get it closed.
I usually VTC question even if only small part needs clarification. It's easier to close than it is to delete
I've had good outcomes when the author responds though.
@Scratte The consensus on meta seems to be clear that there is no cause to wait, however minor. Regardless, in this case, the needed edits are far from minor.
@Dharman you'd be at 1million rep if you were answering duplicates instead of closing them.
00:06
Yeah, I would
@cigien Yes, but meta is also sometimes under the illusion that re-opening a post is just as easy as closing it. And it's not. So I'd rather see if a good post can come of it, than risking having it die too early.
@Scratte You are welcome to use your privileges as you see fit. I am happy to go along with the consensus, unless I disagree strongly, and I don't in this case.
@cigien Yes.. I can obstruct the process by not flagging it at all.
Correct. Consent by silence I think is the term for that ;)
The thing is that every post can be closed under some nitpick. I don't like that when it happens.
@cigien That's nice. You calling me "silent" :D
00:09
Asking questions is generally a terrible thing to do.
^ Yes.. it took a lot of action to get your post re-opened.. and it was closed pretty fast.
Most of the problems on Stack Overflow can be traced back to the fact that we allow people to ask questions
@Dharman That kind of is SO's raison d'etre though...
@Scratte Haha, fair point :)
I am in the camp that every question on SO should start closed and if it is good enough to get answer we can vote to reopen
9
00:12
Things might be improved somewhat if we let people ask questions but didn't necessarily display them.
@Dharman Ok, that just blew my mind.
@cigien Note that meta consensus is an elusive thing. You can find a post that says one thing. And some times another that says the opposite.
@Dharman I suggested that for posts by new users.. but nobody listens to me on meta :)
@Scratte I've certainly noticed that. And I'm sure that for most topics there isn't a clear consensus. There doesn't really seem to be any divide on the waiting time for closures though.
Nobody listens to us
@cigien There is though. Even today I've seen comments to the fact.
00:15
@Dharman Ok, that idea is brilliant. I'm sure it wouldn't work for a lot of tags, if not most, but in the ones I frequent, that would be amazing :) Maybe just 2 "reopen" votes.
@cigien It would work for all the tags. The posts are in the First Posts queue already no matter the tags used. Most of them are also in Triage.
The only real issue I see with this is that users are likely to just close any post they come across in that last queue, so effectively it would mean new users cannot post Questions.
@Scratte Wait, so if there's even a single voice of dissent then there's no consensus? I'm all for strict definitions of terms, but being this strict makes the term "consensus" somewhat useless.
@cigien No :) Just a tiny comment from someone doesn't make is non-consensus. I've just noticed it, and I see a lot of users on main not closing posts even if they could. Then later on I see a close vote and when then post is closed, I check who closed it.. and bingo. User decided to come back and close vote it.
Of course if you ask Cody, I'm sure the answer would be "close it now!" :)
Yes, I don't close posts that I think can be edited into shape. But I don't begrudge others from doing so. They should, and then if it is edited, I'll vote to reopen.
@cigien There have been suggestions (even feature requests) on Meta that questions (from new users) should go into a "probation" queue, to be reviewed by "The Special Ones" before being released to the masses. The posts have always been heavily downvoted, IIRC.
00:21
@Scratte Never mind Cody, they can butt in when they feel like it ;) They don't seem shy.
@AdrianMole Of course this has been brought up before. Why am I not surprised? :) Do you have any links offhand?
Not offhand.
@cigien Yes, well.. I come across posts that have been edited and to me they look fine. But they're still closed. So I'm not convinced it's working very well. If it did work well, that would be a different matter.
@AdrianMole No worries, I actually need practice searching on meta anyway.
@AdrianMole Mine wasn't :D But it has other elements as well.
But the point is that we already have a "First Posts" review queue. It would, essentially, be the same thing but without the 'benefit' of feedback from low-rep users (which can be quite helpful, IMHO, when reviewing that queue).
00:25
@Scratte Do you have stats on this? I'm not saying I don't believe you, but in the tags I follow, it's pretty good. Users will reopen posts that are actually improved. We love answering when possible :)
@AdrianMole We could make it a checkbox thing. Check the stuff that's wrong with this post if it's not to get released into the wild.
@cigien No. I don't.. I have a pass time habit of looking at closed posts though. I collect lists. They grow when I collect them, and increase in size automatically. It's a Roomba thing.
What's the distribution of tags you look at?
Every time I find a post that I think is fine, I add it to the list. It's not unusual to have comments from other users saying they have voted to reopen, but of course the votes age away.
@cigien I never check.. :)
Ok, but how do you come across these posts? Queues, front page, specific searches?
@Scratte do reopen votes also age away?
00:29
@bad_coder Yes. Same rate as close votes.
@cigien Heh.. any number of ways. The graveyard has a lot of closed posts :)
@cigien So when do you plan to make that pull request?
No particular plans. When I get around to it.
@cigien I missed this one :) I agree with most of Cody's opinions. So I just had to mention it :)
@cigien Meaning you say you'll do it but don't have any plans to do anything.
@bad_coder I'm not sure that I agree that requests must have a language tag on them. The request generator does put them there and it makes it a little easier, but.. it only takes the first tag, and sometimes that is misleading. I've found that asking users if they can add them usually make them comply.
00:36
@bad_coder No concrete plans, correct. Note that it's all volunteers here, no one is obliged to do anything, even if they imply they are going to. One is of course judged on how often one follows through.
But some users don't use those scripts. I used to write them all by hand, but no one told me to add the tags. I just sort of did it to make it easier for others to find them.
What to do in these cases where a newbie question is closed to "how to use debugger" target?
@bad_coder They accepted the target themselves. Else.. you scream
@Scratte thanks I hadn't noticed that. (Besides screaming, really don't know what to do about those "debugger" targets.)
00:55
@bad_coder I think there's a few discussion of that already in the room. It depends on the post. If it's fine, then reopen is in order. But it seems there's a few things missing on this one, like what is the result. The title should probably also be slightly more on the topic of the post.
If it's not fine, then.. I'm not sure if reopening it is the best thing to do. That would mean it has to be closed again with another reason, no?
I think Cody changed the target of one a few days ago when a post was brought into the room. But I can't remember exactly. I'd have to go through the transcript to find out :(
@Scratte thanks, those are some good insights on the issue. (I feel informed, hopefully I won't forget it - although I'm likely to come across the same issue.)
@bad_coder Actually I see that they do have input/output on this one. I should read it more closely.
@bad_coder If you forget, just ask again :D
@Scratte I'll try to make a note to self:"don't ask a third time."
Or.. search the post id of the target. I'm sure it'll bring out some interesting points from other discussions :)
@Scratte ahh don't worry about it. Tell me about Denmark, you ever travel down to Germany for a visit?
01:02
@bad_coder I did. To Berlin for a few days. It was in November some years back, and it was freezing cold..
@Scratte Cold in Berlin is ok, it isn't very moist so you can easily take the cold.
It felt colder than -30 in Montreal. The wind was quite strong and being a tourist most of the time was outside.
@Scratte It was the wind for sure, that's terrible. I had an invitation to Montreal this year, but then the pandemic happened...
I ended up wearing all my clothes at the same time looking like this
@Scratte those white boots are quite the fashion statement :)
01:09
@bad_coder You can't imagine how difficult it was to put them on when wearing 4 pairs of socks ;)
@Scratte Come'on a guy from Dk has smart socks that only require 1 layer?!
Montreal is so nice in winter. I like slush ice on my boots :)
The best trick is to use two layers. One thin one and then wool. The moisture from one's feet will go to the wool and help keep one's feet dry.
@Scratte I need to spend more time in the snow :\ haven't been getting enough of it.
@Scratte But then again, 3 months of snow doesn't seem enough for me.
You will not find any in my country. It's been years since we had any that stayed for more than a few hours.
@mickmackusa That will roomba right?
01:18
It will.. tonight. Not sure why it hasn't already. Was an Answer deleted on it?
@bad_coder fwiw, I don't think OP knows what that means. They accepted the debugger target after accepting the answer.
Any suggestions as to what best to do about this?
Custom Mod flag immediately.
My thought is to advise them to use the "Contact us" button and get the SE Staff on the case.
Sure, but I'm inclined to let a mod handle it. I don't feel comfortable intervening myself.
01:27
I gave a comment with both options.
They really need to send a take-down-notice.
But it's been over a year ... so there may be a deeper script that we're not seeing.
Yeah, the comment is good. But they say they've already reported it a month ago, so it doesn't feel like they're completely clueless.
Also, they mention that their posts, where I presume they've tried this before, have been deleted. Seems like a mod would be needed to handle that.
I guess it would be inappropriate for a non-mod to edit the question to remove the code?
... we have no evidence to back up the allegation, after all.
Yeah, definitely not something users should do, I think.
And even if one did have proof, for something like a copy-right violation, or whatever this is, aren't we supposed to mod-flag instead of getting involved?
01:33
Argh!.. someone flagged that as it was removed before I could tell them about a "notice and take down"
Ok, it's gone, and my flag was marked helpful. I'm pretty sure this falls squarely in mod territory.
Heh - Bhargav plagiarised my comment then deleted it. I'm gonna report him! xD
Don't worry, I flagged that straight away ;)
@AdrianMole huh?.. you mean your comment was reposted?!?
@cigien It will now that the negative-voted accepted answer has been deleted, yes.
01:38
@Scratte With minor adjustment and no attribution, yeah!
@mickmackusa Oh, I see. I didn't look at the timeline, sorry about that.
@AdrianMole That's strange.. also, they need to contact Stack with a special notice. There are rules about how long they are allowed to keep content on if it violates a copyright.
I'm joking, of course. Bhargav's comment tells them to use the "Contact us" button, as mine did.
... he probably felt it was best coming from a moderator. I don't disagree.
Now.. I feel like a gullible squirrel.
Better than being a squabbling gull, I guess?
01:55
@Scratte The solution to that is: get 3k rep and vote to reopen.
@Makyen You did get to the part where I mentioned someone already did that but the votes ages away? :)
@Scratte Reopen votes only age away when not enough people vote to reopen. I know you're resistant to getting more reputation, but the system has a process which exists to handle reopening. It's certainly not perfect. However, the fact that you refuse to participate makes it not work in more cases.
Your votes, if they existed, would be 1/3 of what was needed to get such questions reopened. If your votes existed, they would also make it more likely that those questions get additional votes. So, basically, your refusal to participate helps perpetuate the thing which you're saying is bad.
2
@Makyen I don't have time to answer post and go searching for posts that I don't think should have been closed. I've not Answered a lot of post for a long time because I spent my time doing other stuff. Besides, I don't want to Answer a post that gets closed.
@Scratte I can understand that. I don't think anyone is suggesting you to spend additional time going to look for questions which could be reopened. OTOH, if you had the ability to vote to open you could use those votes on the questions which you organically encounter where your feel the vote would be appropriate.
02:11
@Makyen Yes, but that is what those other users did. The ones that posts comments and had their vote age away :) I do envy users that seemingly put out and Answer in less than 5 minutes. I don't.
And I've been more and more cautious about even thinking about answering anything as the posts that I find interesting are closed as "lacks focus", even though they're focused.
@Scratte Yes, but if you encounter a question which you feel should be reopened, your vote, if it existed, would help the other votes not age away, both directly and by making it more likely that other reopen votes are applied to the question.
I'm not sure that's how it works.
I raised a flag on a post that had one close vote. Then.. it had two. And then.. it was back to one. I found that a little odd. But it looked like the votes ages away at a rate from when they were cast.
@Scratte Each additional reopen-vote delays when the older votes age away, just like happens with close-votes. People do tend to pay attention to the number of reopen votes on a question. If more reopen votes are showing, then it's more likely that people will pay more attention to the post and will be more likely to vote to reopen. That doesn't consider as to if the question gets a higher priority/visibility in the reopen queue, as does happen in the close vote queue when there are more votes.
this post was the one that had one vote, then two.. and then back to one. Before that one also aged away. I found it quite puzzling.
@Scratte They do age away based on when they were cast, or when the most recent vote was cast. New votes delay the aging away of older votes.
02:24
Of course I could have imagined it.. or thinking I saw something I didn't
@Scratte That sounds normal and accurate.
@Makyen But then how did the first one get a longer run after the second one was cast?
It seems to me it didn't.
Folks can retract close votes manually.
Yes, but I think that would have been a little odd to do with this one.
@Scratte With > 100 views, close-votes would start to age away 4 days (IIRC, it's really 3.5 to 4.5 days) after the most recent one was placed. They would then age away at the rate of one every 24 hours.
02:31
@AdrianMole I haven't had any luck with finding the "probation" posts. If you happen to find/remember any of them, could you share a link? Thanks.
@Scratte For more details, you can see Age close votes after 14 days, regardless of views, allowing recasting. The current behavior is described at the end under the heading: "Proposed changes".
@Makyen Thanks. I think.. I'll read that after a few hours of sleep :)
 
3 hours later…
 
1 hour later…
07:33
@AdrianMole Actually, your comment also had a part about moderator flags, that's why I deleted it and posted just the right part... It dawned on me that I could have just edited yours, but I had already deleted it, so it was too late. (Moderators can't undelete comments on deleted posts w/o using userscripts)
07:47
Woah, I haven't expected that this "answers are wrong / NAA" discussion turns out so controversial
 
2 hours later…
10:58
Is this one worth a flag?
@E_net4ishere I would flag it
It's deleted by a mod, so no need now.
11:44
@BhargavRao Oh, so a comment with just the correct bits would suffice? Was the flag unnecessary?
11:54
this question says that the code works, but OP is seeking for a more "compact or elegant" way. If the code works, is it off-topic? I posted a comment saying that I think it is better suited for code review, should vote to close too?
@Magnetron It's subjective. I personally find it to be on-topic. Regardless, that question is definitely not suitable for code-review, and will get closed there. Please avoid suggesting that in these cases.
Ok, thanks
@Magnetron I think the question we should ask here is "will this question be useful to future visitors?" If the answer is yes, then we can edit out the "elegant" part and leave it be. If it definitely won't be useful then let's kill it with fire. And yes, it would definitely be off-topic on Code Review: codereview.meta.stackexchange.com/a/3652/154946
Morning
13:18
Should a question asking "Can anyone show me another way to solve this problem?" be closed as needing more focus? Here is an example: (coprime integers and Pythagorean Triplets in python). I can't find anything relevant on meta :S
@Georgy There's no consensus. If someone asks how to do it, some users shoot it down for lacking effort. If they ask "Can I do this differently", some shoot is down for not being a problem. I tend to think both are fine.
If they are not fine, we're just forcing everything to be debugging Questions meaning they have to put some false attempt that does it wrong, just to get Answers. I find it to be pointless.
@Georgy Meh. It looks MRE enough and it has an answer. Not worth it
Ok, thanks! I'll leave it be then :)
I think it's too open-ended for SO's model. What are the criteria? Which other approach solves the problem (every one?)?
Can users request to reopen closed questions that they intend to later answer.
13:28
@JeanneDark No. That is also a false assumption. Every post can have a multitude of correct Answers. There is no requirement that all those are posted in Answers. Usually users post what they believe to be the best correct Answer. The only thing we do not really want is when it's impossible to tell if an Answer is in fact correct.
@AnnZen The key on the rule about involvement is that you're not already involved. If you get involved after room action, that's not really our concern
@Scratte Rather a false assumption on your part
@JeanneDark How so? The model says that it should be a practical answerable Question. That it should not ask for opinions. It is both of those.
I don't see how gold badge holders can close a question to a document.
13:34
@AnnZen The system allows it, but in this case I think that's an inappropriate duplicate target, and is probably inappropriate for most questions.
It is used a lot for regex Questions. Some of those are valid, others.. maybe not so much.
@Scratte Not really interested in that discussion. So as answer I simply quote you: "The only thing we do not really want is when it's impossible to tell if an Answer is in fact correct." And that's exactly the point when all the question does is asking for a different approach. "Different" not being much better than "Better", "Best", "Most elegant" etc.
@JeanneDark I don't oppose better, more elegant nor cleaner either.
@JeanneDark "The best way" implies better, but better does not imply "The best way"
Isn't there an implicit unboundedness to any post?
13:42
@Dharman The first comment on that post is borderline rude. Is it flaggable?
@cigien Maybe as "No longer needed" to be on the safe side
Sure, I didn't mean to suggest an R/A flag. But I'm thinking custom to be safer.
@cigien NLN
Ok, I used NLN, thanks.
@cigien But then a mod had to handle it, while enough NLN flags delete it automatically
13:45
@JeanneDark Yeah, there's that too, good point.
NLN and mod comment flags are the easiest to handle because you can merely delete and that's that. UU and HBA flags can get the user autoflagged so they get a bit more scrutiny
Oh, good grief: Already two questions tagged with C++23!
14:01
It's still 2020
In my personal C++ Universe, I'm not sure we've even reached 2017 yet.
Zoe
Zoe
@Dharman They started on C++23 the second C++20 was done
@AdrianMole 2017? I'm years behind you, I still use Python2.7 /s
Zoe
Zoe
@Nick Which is short for 2700, right? So clearly, Adrian is behind you :p
@AdrianMole I'll be celebrating the new millennium by the end of the year myself :)
14:07
Are there reasons why not to use C++20?
Zoe
Zoe
@Dharman Build system support
And compiler support
But it's not limited by architecture or OS right?
@Dharman Maintenance of historical code
Zoe
Zoe
Not directly
But C++20 has a new stdlib which you need to compile stuff, and some distros haven't properly updated it yet
Then there's Windows, but no one likes Windows xd
^ That, mainly (the latest Visual Studio compiler only supports the C++20 draft standard on an 'experimental' basis). Also for code that I need to be portable: most decent systems these days properly support C++17 but there's a lot that don't do C++20.
Zoe
Zoe
14:09
And compilers are still catching up with the draft
It'll take a few years before the standard is entirely implemented
Should be usable by now though
I run my code through a 'test' phase using the C++20 setting, just to look for stuff I can fix easily that will help prevent jump-up bum-biting down the road.
14:27
FWIW, C++20 does come with a major breaking change. You are no longer allowed to specialize standard library function templates. Only classes are now allowed to be specialized for custom types.
@NathanOliver I haven't fallen foul of any of those. Had a few issues (especially in borrowed open-source code) with comparing different types from different (class) enums.
... remember, I've only moved to using the STL (and any C++11 features) since I started crossing swords with the good folks of the SO C++ tag!
15:08
@user1271772 I've created a separate room where we can discuss your concerns -- we like to keep this one clean of discussions about user activity, or about activity on another site in general.
(moved relevant discussion posts)
@Zoe I edited this one to conform with the Shog9 rule
Zoe
Zoe
oki
15:38
Is this NAA? It looks like a new question, but it could also be considered a critique of another answer.
@JeanneDark It was deleted :)
It's just with that whole discussion going on
@Dharman As this has been up for over a month now and it looks like your suggestion is by far the most generally accepted, do you want to update the guidance in the FAQ?
@Nick What? how?
15:50
Edit the CW? :p
Definitely not right now.
No rush, was just in case you want to put it in your own words seeing as you're the one that got the community support
Good moaning all ...
Got message "you have not permission to rise this flag" on a post few mins ago, never happened to me before, the post was closed right after, can it be for closure while rising flag?
17:37
Just came across one of my long lost cousins :D
Is this question on-topic? Looks more like customer support to me. Received link-only answer.
Wow! I thought they just tabled that request!
17:53
Ohh what turn tables
Instead, the tables' turn has come
@rene you gotta be joking me...How will SO look after this?!
I think we should table this discussion for 6 to 8 weeks
@NathanOliver yeah, we'll start seeing the results in 6 to 8 :D - it may, very well, become a copy-editor's nightmare.
@NathanOliver "You can't merge cells or rows." well this limits things...
18:19
So, which tag will have the first table containing a block quote containing two tables, each with code blocks? Odds: R = 5:1; SQL = 2:1; Haskell = evens.
@AdrianMole None of the above. It will be HTML
@TylerH That's not a flower pot!
hehe - or , more likely.
18:35
The SQL tag will be an edit nightmare now. The front page will be tables of tables of tables for years on end :)
@AdrianMole tag has been burninated, now you'd have to use or something...(Correction, was the one burninated.)
Feel free to post a burnination request on Meta for [html-table]. You just might break the maximum down-votes record! ;)
@AdrianMole funny you mention it, I had noticed there are no good tags to post about tables in the Markdown family.
@Braiam flower power pot 🤔 ?!
@bad_coder Och no
18:46
@TylerH ok, sometime next Tuesday folks have to explain the HTML joke to me - because that's the only 1 I fail to understand LOL (but excellent comic anyway)
@TylerH That doesn't load for me...
@bad_coder the implication is that HTML is not a programming language
just a prettification (markup) language
@Braiam it's a direct link to a pinterest post's image. First result I could find on Google
(and imgur is blocked for me at work)
It could be the opposite for me :D
Quite
I wish it were the opposite for me, frankly
@TylerH now I get it :D thanks
19:25
@BhargavRao o/ Hello! How are you?
20:13
Well, should we actually flag this as rude?
I think it's misguided rather than rude.
Now, htmlhelp is a different matter - that's real programming (cuz it works with the WinAPI). ;-P
not rude, but still spam
Yeah - I can see a possible spam angle.
20:27
Is this an Answer?
Is this?
@AdrianMole "Is this?" can be removed in the 2 minute window. Maybe you should add a little more to make me confused ;)
Google is your friend - look for "rhetorical" ... but entirely not relevant to the post you're concerned with.
There's another strange "Answer" on the post from two days ago. Not sure what to do about that one either.
I got grief from a website, today ... so I'm trying to "even up the score!" :-)
20:31
The one I posted seems to be a response to a comment on the other Answer, repeating the comment.. or what am I missing here?
Ahh.. it's the same user posting the comment and the partial? answer to the question in the other Answer box? But not really answering that one either.
20:47
@AdrianMole What grief? You uploaded your homework and it crashed the server? :)
Worse! A company is 'holding' a chunk of my money and their website wouldn't let me redeem the 'voucher' against a new purchase. They had a 'chat agent' but they were almost completely powerless. Gave me a (premium-rate) phone number to call (tomorrow), where I'll no doubt have to wait for 10+ minutes, then take 15 minutes explaining my desired new purchase, then wait again ...
@AdrianMole What a nuisance.
Indeed. It's a (big) online travel agent, so I guess they've been having a hard time these past 9 months. Maybe I should be more 'understanding'?
@AdrianMole It's a case of "patient" over "understanding", but you have rights and they have duties it's fair to expect professionalism from them. (I was expecting it to be some minor online shop..)
21:09
@AdrianMole That seems.. a bit like they're losing another customer :)
@Scratte Maybe, maybe not. I've been using them for years and they're mostly pretty decent. But they 'improved' their website about a year ago and half the useful functions have gone. I used to be able to work up an itinerary and then save it for later (to maybe discuss with boss/family/others to check if dates were OK, etc.) With that, I could then just phone up the 'real' person, give them the old and new itinerary numbers and let them get on with it. That's gone.
why the old?
They need that number because that's the cancelled flight whose cost I am redeeming.
Is this off-topic? It looks a bit broad, and perhaps POB.
21:18
@cigien A couple of very odd comment by high-rep users, if nothing else.
@AdrianMole Oh.. that makes sense. If you already paid for it.
@AdrianMole Yeah, and given how different some of the comments are, it seems the question needs clarification.
I'm also annoyed that I had to wait for the 'chat agent' to give me a phone number. In the email telling me about the process, they said, "be sure to have this number handy when you call us to rebook" ... but no phone number to call.
Oh! That's.. not very thorough. I suppose nobody proofread that.
21:29
Is there a list of meta posts that one needs to read to review Suggested Edits? Or rather does one have the long list of meta posts that one must read first?
..and a bunch of unwritten rules too?
Don't let spam in, don't let anyone make the post worse than it was before, and don't let people waste your time.
That's not what I mean. How do I not get review suspended in the queue? Are they suspending users for approve nice edits on closed posts even if one can't see if a post is closed in the queue? How many capitalization of "i" and "ibm" and removing commas is enough for "not wasting my time" so that I will avoid a suspension on those grounds? ..those sort of things.
Even if there's no indication that users should be suspended on those grounds, I think I'll need to know before going for reviewing audits there.
Perhaps @bad_coder has a list :)
Is one only suspended for approving a bad edit, or has there ever been a user that's been suspended for rejecting a good edit? I'm getting the impression that rejecting every edit is less likely to get one suspended.
Audits in the edits queue are the easiest to spot. They're auto-generated spans of gobbledegook randomly placed in the post. And the only mod-bans I've seen for edit reviews are either horrendously egregious or for approving tag-wiki edits (which you'll need 5k for) that are plagiarism.
@AdrianMole I think you have not spent enough time in Samuel's room :)
Maybe - Is Sam now targeting edit reviewers, as he's now run out of Triage goofs?
21:42
I occasionally send incorrect edit reviews to that room
@AdrianMole I don't know. I see users posting suggested edit reviews in there. I assume they result in supension.
Relevant: there's a new page describing suggested edit review at stackoverflow.com/help/review-suggested-edits, and you can see the community's feedback on what it's missing here
I think you have to allow some lee-way/opinion on some edit reviews. I skip a lot in that queue.
I also saw a post where a user was suspended for approve an edit on a closed post. Apparently because it was closed. Despite the fact that there's a huge EDIT button on all closed posts.
@Scratte I've never seen anyone reject every edit (and I'm not sure I've seen anyone reject a clearly good edit), so I can't say if that's the case. I'd certainly mod-flag that if I noticed.
21:45
@RyanM That is probably not the metric that is used at all. I do not trust that. It's a Stack thing. Actual practices is likely complete different. See my point about the EDIT button.
My methodology of reviewing would be likely to pick up someone rejecting too many things: I certainly noticed it in LQP a number of times.
@RyanM You can close vote every post in Triage with impunity, which is why I'm asking.
@Scratte that's because "If edit is approved, it would put Q in the REOPEN queue without making the Q on-topic, which would usurp OP's one-shot-chance to enter that queue."
I would say that, if a suggested edit is trivial on a clearly terrible post, then a short suspension for approving it may be in order. But not always. It's not that clear in the review that a post is actually closed (or, even if it is, whether the edit was suggested before it was closed). I think an appeal would have a good chance of success, in most such cases.
21:47
@Scratte was the edit actually useful?
@Scratte OK, recently after the Triage queue affair was settled. There's been some call on the "bad reviews" chat room to suspended certain reviewers on the suggested edit queue. If you see something surfacing on meta, you'll likely find a corresponding post there.
@Vickel Yes. But that information is NOT provided in the review. And Stack wants users to edit those posts. Rejecting them feels like stabbing them in the back after Stack has said "welcome".
@RyanM It fixed grammar and such, if I remember correctly.
This was discussed on Meta fairly recently, IIRC. Or probably on Meta.SE (in the new help text post), where I answered quoting the "turd polishing" answer from Animuson.
@Scratte I think this is a ongoing issue, hope to be resolved soon... there were some Meta's about it
@bad_coder But are there any "This is how you review suggested edits" posts on meta?
I can go for the safe option skipping 19000 posts and reviewing 1000 audits. I really don't like uncertainty..
21:51
But you'll see some obvious vandalism/spam edits. I've had a couple in recent days where randoms have just added a photo of themselves to the post. If you approved one of those, then a long suspension is in order.
@Scratte Lots: google.com/…
And.. I already see a problem with stackoverflow.com/help/review-suggested-edits. "Adds additional information or clarifies existing answer." Emphasis mine. So clarifying a questions is a no-go.
@Scratte Moderators review problematic edits on a case by case basis. If a user is causing problems by rejecting good edits, a moderator is just as likely to suspend them from reviewing as they are for approving bad ones, but that's still only "likely", because moderators, by design of the position, make judgment calls. Otherwise we'd just have a computer do their jobs.
@TylerH Heh.. I'll try to extract the keywords, thanks.
@Scratte "adds additional information" applies equally to questions in that sentence, from a grammatical point of view
but yes there is some precedent around edits to questions
Typically you don't want to add information to questions that aren't yours unless you clearly state in the edit description where that information came from (e.g. comments)
21:56
@Scratte put simply: If the suggested edit leaves more undone than it fixes, or is wrong, or is just lazy - reject or improve. Otherwise, build on what the previous editor did. It's also good there's "no hard rule" (as Cody usually says), because a lot of editors are just learning and won't catch every minor detail. So I take track-record into account and leave them some margin for improvement.
@TylerH I remember the phrasing from plagiarism.. which in the help is also just Answers.
That way reviewers know the context and where you're getting said information
@bad_coder I like that last part. You take the track-record into account :) Someone told me no one ever does that :D
@Vickel @Scratte regarding what Vickel says this wasn't "a thing" that would get a reviewer into trouble a few months ago. If the post is closed but not bound for immediate deletion improve the product. Otherwise, just skip (some reviewers have no qualms in rejecting 40 suggestions straight, you can leave it to them and focus on improving stuff.)
@bad_coder But the help in the help center is not close to being accurate on what ground a reviewer is suspended. That's sort of unhelpful, if you ask me :)
Are there every any audits that requires one to "Approve"?
22:02
@Scratte the only consensus before "the Triage queue affair" was: "There's no suspension because of bad suggested edit reviews". You'd literally have to gather "a significant sample" of a really bad reviewer and custom flag the case for mod consideration with a list of links.
@bad_coder Taking up on that first point. After a while, you may start to see some 'familiar names' popping up with very minor edits on posts. They do this so that, if approved (and they get the +2), they then go back and make another minor edit. Worth watching out for.
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman Hey, doing good, thanks! How bout you?
@Scratte In over 10,000 edit reviews, I've never seen one.
@AdrianMole I'll stick to audits then. At least.. that's like a review suspension with a pending badge :)
@cigien the flag from that user would have been unnecessary in that particular case ... (where a poster had posted a NAA asking for a post to be deleted, and Adrian had commented).
22:05
@AdrianMole @Scratte important detail. If you see some editor doing the same nonsense over and over, don't think about giving him a ping in the comments to explain how things should be done. The last 2 revenge down votes I took was because of a guy who consistently added the language to the title. In those cases don't play "mister nice guy" either ignore it or take the time and trouble to build a significant sample to post on the "bad reviews chat".
@bad_coder you could also flag it if you don't want to post it publicly
@bad_coder But.. I don't mind downvotes :)
@Scratte Hey - there's some mutual karma there: You reject so many of a user's suggestions that they get edit-banned, and they downvote you so much you lose your edit review privilege. Sweet!
@BhargavRao No, I meant the flag that I raised asking for Moderator intervention. Was my flag unnecessary? Unless I'm that user you're referring to.
@AdrianMole That's.. not a bad tradeoff :)
22:08
Go for it!
Heh.. I think audits is the way to go for me. I don't edit anyway, so I'll have to reduce the amount of buttons with a user script.
@RyanM this is a wise advice, but from my days in the H&I queue there's not much trouble from posting "bad reviews" chat. Only a minority of users would know about it, there's a ton of posts there anyway, and a guy taking the trouble to find your 1 post would hopefully have understood his mistakes.
@cigien would definitely have been necessary if another mod had seen it. :)
I personally had handled some 3 flags on that user, so I knew...
@BhargavRao In that case (you realize my remarks in here were a joke, I hope), I didn't at first spot that there was an identical earlier NAA that you had already deleted. Once I saw that, I guessed you were 'on the case' and didn't need any special 'guidance' from me.
@bad_coder Yeah, I agree with you here. The only time I've ever had a user notice I posted one of their edits there, they were already a regular and we'd chatted cordially a few times previously.
22:10
Yup, I know you were jokin.
@BhargavRao Aah, I see. So in general, I'll make custom flags explaining the issue.
@Scratte The real question is: is a user just doing audits flaggable as abuse of the system? ;-)
Why is it that moderators always finds the part of chat where someone spoke about them? Do they get a ping when mentioned that we don't know about?
@cigien sure!
If it is declined, post on meta with this message ... I'll either name and shame the moderator, or profusely apologize.
@RyanM lol! That may have to be settled with a meta post. I'd argue that the consensus is that there's no shame in using Skip. No one can prove that someone is unsure about the review in every single review that's not an audit :)
22:13
@Scratte s/moderators/me
I read transcripts from this room, so ...
@BhargavRao No.. I (me) don't have such script :) And.. you're not the only one :)
Ah, happy that there are other mods who follow the transcripts here
@BhargavRao Sounds good :)
Really?!? That's a lot of reading! :O
@BhargavRao Cody is also a thorough SOCVR transcript reader when they aren't utterly consumed by work
22:15
Cody is half the transcript ... So they need to read just half
11
...clever strategy
@AdrianMole Since those strange Answers earlier are still sitting there, can I assume you didn't flag them?
ikr, thankfully I am not that free.
@BhargavRao I think perhaps you may be mistaken Cody for Makyen. Or is it not a word count?
Not a word count, just messages ... I skip Makyen's messages as they are too long to read ;p
22:17
:)
@BhargavRao hehe
@AdrianMole @Scratte a last note building on this, if an editor with a few dozen suggestions misses a few things build on his work, if it's an experienced editor with a few hundred suggestions who's trying to slip a minor edit through the queue out of laziness, evaluate by the degree of laziness.
22:55
@SotiriosDelimanolis I'm not sure I would consider that a typo.
00:00 - 23:0023:00 - 00:00

« first day (2559 days earlier)      last day (1483 days later) »