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5:12 PM
The vinyl is spinning :)
Is this off-topic?
@cigien yup ... voted to close just then
@cigien If I were not a programmer, would I be able to answer it?
@tink Ok, thanks.
pleasure ...
@Braiam - if you were not a programmer you could still (after having read man 5 crontab) still answer that question ;)
5:21 PM
@Braiam I'm sorry, I'm not clear what you're asking. It seems you're implying that if a question could be answered by a non-programmer, that makes it not a programming question. Or am I misunderstanding your point?
@cigien Nope, that's exactly my point.
The same way that a question asking how to marinate chicken would be off topic. A programmer may know how to do it, but non programmers also do.
@Braiam That's silly. I can answer how to lay tiles in a bathroom, but I'm not a bricklayer. Does that mean it's off-topic for home-improvement? :D
@Braiam That's interesting. As a metric for judging the topicality of a question, that strikes me as... odd.
so wait does that mean that questions about tuning ML algorithms are programming questions? Only a programmer can do that.
@JohnDvorak Mathematicians also do ;)
As do statisticians and other abstract sciences.
5:31 PM
So... questions about Mathematica are now offtopic?
... and R
@JohnDvorak Implementation vs theory
/me gets out the popcorn
4
You don't really implement anything in Mathematica.
You just specify what you want the engine to compute.
@tink But the target is python. Is the question just missing the python tag?
@JohnDvorak Err... you do. You tell mathematica to get the mean of a data set.
5:33 PM
I think there's a molecular biologist and historian somewhere on this site that's answered a lot of Questions. We need to close them all ;)
@cigien yah
(while eating popcorn) Can you implement something in HTML?
You can implement a view in HTML
... and CSS3 is Turing complete
@tink Any point adding the tag? In case a hammer chances upon the request?
Factorio is Turing complete without mods or Lua. I don't believe that's a good metric.
5:34 PM
@cigien might make sense ... do you want to do the honours or should I?
How about TIS-100, would questions about this be on-topic?
@tink Done :)
@JohnDvorak Nope.
good man
Why not?
5:35 PM
Because you can't integrate it with other systems.
Remember "practical, answerable questions unique to software development"
I can't integrate Mathematica code with C either, can I?
@JohnDvorak If Matematica has an output, yes, you can.
And by output I mean a file/socket that can be read
... and I definitely can't integrate AVR butterfly microcode with anything, because it can only interface a digital joystick and a black and white LCD. Still programming.
... or fridge firmware. Or car MCU.
@JohnDvorak You are cheating, AVR is assembly code.
so is TIS-100
5:38 PM
Again practical and unique to software development
@JohnDvorak Which fails the practical aspect ;)
Using a single metric to define a topic is fundamentally flawed.
Is it too early for beer? :)
Bold doesn't really help here..
"implement multiplication using bitwise operation" is not practical but it might happen as a homework. Is that off-topic?
@JohnDvorak You can do that in a piece of paper, no?
I can evaluate any language's code on a piece of paper
5:40 PM
@tink never
3
Even Mathematica.
@JohnDvorak Yet not everything you write in a piece of paper is on topic ;)
1 min ago, by Braiam
Using a single metric to define a topic is fundamentally flawed.
@TylerH =)
so, are homework questions with impractical constraints on-topic, assuming they have been attempted?
> Questions asking for homework help must include a summary of the work you've done so far to solve the problem, and a description of the difficulty you are having solving it.
@JohnDvorak ^
What problem you are facing implementing your bitwise operation?
3 mins ago, by Braiam
Using a single metric to define a topic is fundamentally flawed.
5:42 PM
I mean, it certainly isn't a practical I need to achieve.
@JohnDvorak Well, it can be, if the constrains are enough.
I don't think beer is going to cut it for me, I need something much stronger :p
... heck, even needing IE8 support cannot count as a practical problem nowadays. Do we go back and close those?
You are creating a compiler for arm64 or something esoteric.
How does Mr/Ms community do its thing?
5:43 PM
@tink Magic.
Repeating messages using one-boxes doesn't seem like a good use of real-estate.
lol@cigien
@JohnDvorak Depends, again, "if the constrains are enough"
You can make something practical, but as always, there are limits that the community would accept.
@Braiam meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/325699/… says that in-game code is still on-topic
@JohnDvorak That's not what it says, read again.
"They would still need to meet other criteria for being on-topic"
"Questions about optimizing "HRM" programs may well not be on-topic for Stack Overflow"
There are no simple yes/no answers.
5:46 PM
keyword "optimizing". As in, code review.
That's not the only quote ;)
I have no idea what those quotes are meant to explain. Needs details or clarity / off-site resource :)
Your claim is that all HRM questions are off-topic, is it not?
"If I were not a programmer, would I be able to answer it?" is good rule of thumb for questions. It's not the panacea, but it allows you to have quick answers.
@JohnDvorak I didn't.
Or try to quote me saying it.
5:50 PM
@JohnDvorak You are moving goal posts, that's not cool. You said "Your claim is that all HRM questions are off-topic", now you are talking about TIS-100
Unless you're saying that Human Resource Machine is practical programming but TIS-100 isn't, that is.
Is that what you're saying?
@JohnDvorak "given that SO happily fields homework questions and other questions that are clearly academic in nature (i.e. not literally "practical"), it's clear that SO has a fairly liberal understanding of the word "practical" in this context"
@JohnDvorak I didn't.
@user2357112 actually, you must specify which aspect of your code you want to optimize. A dump of "here's my code, optimize it" is very likely to be closed as too broad. — Braiam Jun 10 '16 at 15:14
Heck, I participated in that discussion.
BTW, Arqade is made of programmers too. In fact, the thing was created shortly after (before) SOUF came into fruition. — Braiam Jun 7 '16 at 22:10
... so, which of these two are on-topic?
Depends on the question :)
As everything in life.
... so TIS-100 can be on-topic?
5:53 PM
finally googles what a TIS-100 is
7
@JohnDvorak Now, you are asking the right questions. Yes, it can be, but usually I would say "no".
When does a person become a programmer? I mean if someone can answer a post, but isn't a programmer, then the post is off-topic, by your statement, correct?
... and HRM is also usually off-topic?
I haven't seen a HRM question on the site... have you?
So I can't say whenever questions asked on SO are usually on/off topic.
Now you've made me look for it ;)
5:56 PM
Microsoft HRM and CRM (couldn't resist)
"Hi guys, syntax its correct?"
@JeanneDark Clear and readily answerable!
hey, I've found it referenced in a comment. stackoverflow.com/questions/54972588/…
@janw I need that! :)
... and one user card and a couple of chat transcript pages. And that's it.
soooo, what does that mean for our lovely meta post?
That either all questions weren't on-topic for failing to meet other criteria or that gamers just don't consider that they are programming.
6:02 PM
There are, however, 165 questions tagged
Third option: people good enough at programming to like HRM are also good enough to finish it without help :)
And one question tagged TIS-100 (not on-topic, mind you, but also stale so no touching): stackoverflow.com/questions/30737689/…
@JohnDvorak I knew the name TIS-100, but only because I have Opus Magnum and SHENGZEN I/O
TIL that Shenzhen is also a ... gem for ... cocoa??? For something whose gem manager is named IPA, it seems.
Manufactoria has a pretty nice representation on CGCC: codegolf.stackexchange.com/search?q=manufactoria
6:20 PM
@Braiam what does SOUF stand for?
Stack Overflow Unofficial Fix wait, no, that's SOUP
@TylerH Stack Overflow, Super User and Server Fault.
People were abusing that every site started with S to make that acronym work.
SOSUSF
or just S/OUF
6:24 PM
S³OUF?
SOF.. it's fashionable to remove U. I've seen it done a lot in the S.
SuperUser - the one trilogy site that's not for programmers :D
7:03 PM
Is this NAA? Looks like a comment, or a follow up question, to me.
@cigien It does look like a comment, but it could also get you a "declined - meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/300987/…;
@cigien "Check that your your vector is initialized to all and make sure you don't override it"
@DavidBuck Yeah, that's what I was worried about. Thanks. I cant seem to figure out NAA flags at all :(
@cigien I started using this metric: Is there anything in the Answer that can help to find a solution?
@Scratte No, I'm not going to edit it, because it wouldn't answer the question anyway.
7:09 PM
@cigien I didn't try to suggest you edit it. But that's how I read the post :)
@cigien Like @scratte just said - if it's "Can you show some log output?" flag away. If it's "Have you tried setting the foo to bar?" leave it alone
@Scratte I've thought of that, but it seems dicey. "Please do your best to try harder" would help :p I'm being silly, but there are many cases where that metric doesn't help me figure it out.
@Scratte Aah, I see :)
@DavidBuck Hmm, how about, "Have you tried looking at your log output?" Flag, or leave alone?
@cigien That's a bit like "You can google recursion" - it might point to an answer, but I'd flag and hope.
@cigien No.. that's stretching it :) As that would not be trying to answer the Question :)
@DavidBuck Ok, maybe I'll do that I am an optimist :)
7:16 PM
@cigien An Answer could be "The information you need is in your logfile. It's default in <dir>" to a Question that say "My blah stop unexpectedly. I don't know how to find out why it does so".
I successfully flagged an answer which basically said, "You should google recursion and try debugging your code", but in the case of something like that I would always leave a clear comment that I don't think their answer is of sufficient quality to be an answer, and downvote.
@Scratte Yes, it was a straw man argument :)
Since I started regularly downvoting useless answers, I've had far fewer declined.
@DavidBuck Wait, a NAA flag is more likely to get approved if the answer has downvotes, and a comment explaining why it's NAA??
@DavidBuck You mean a flag and a downvote gets your less declined than a flag with a zero score?
I've always left a comment to explain why I think an Answer is NAA. Without mentioning "NAA" or "Not an Answer" specifically :)
7:21 PM
Anecdotal evidence suggests that this is the case. Particularly with ones that I'm not sure about. If it's blatantly obvious that it's an NAA then I doubt if it makes much difference, but if I think it's more subtle, I always make sure that I've informed the poster in such a way that viewers/mods can understand why I've flagged/dv'd
@Scratte I don't think I generally do that. That might explain why I get declined. I'll start doing that, thanks :) The downvote relationship is still confusing though, why would mods take that into account? The down votes could all be because the answer is just wrong.
@cigien I've had downvotes on NAAs countered :) Early on I'd only downvote them if they got an upvote, since it's so messy in my reputation tab :D But leaving an explanation is always a good choice.
Ok, I think commenting on why I think it's NAA before flagging is a good idea, unless it's obviously NAA. Thanks for the help David, and Scratte :)
@cigien Unless you join the group of paranoid flaggers that keep score of their flag statistics and accuracy via a user script, then getting a declined is just a pointer to not do it again. If you're part of the paranoid flagger group then.. I'm so sorry that you got a declined flag :)
A lot of reviews are done in LQP don't forget. Certainly if it's a long NAA with code, I might just skip if it had a score of zero (not that I do LQP these days) but a negative score will make me check carefully to see if it's actually an answer.
7:28 PM
@Scratte Haha, no I don't care about the stats at all :) But every now and then, when I flag, I get the "your recent flags have been declined" pop up. I don't think I'm close to being suspended from flagging, but I would like to make sure I avoid that if possible :)
@cigien Ohh.. wow :) I see that you're not even close to even become a paranoid flagger :) Good for you :)
8:00 PM
@desertnaut this has been edited - does it have an MRE now?
user10957435
There was a meta post that created this room back in the day, right?
@Chipster Nope
It was born in The Tavern.
@Chipster If you mean SOCVR, see the origin information here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/251955/so-close-vote-reviewers/…
@Braiam not really
user10957435
@TylerH That's what I was looking for. Thanks.
8:05 PM
@dippas too bad we don't have gold badges in javascript or jquery...
@Chipster for the history books - this is the MSE question that got me and Andrew Cheong hooked up: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/208715
@rene He brought the sharp close votes, and you brought the blurry SEDEs
basically, yes.
8:21 PM
@TylerH doesn't look like; but it seems it has a duplicate
So why doesn't Andrew hang around here any more? Did he develop a nasty case of fuzzy Hay Fever?
@desertnaut thanks
@AdrianMole probably just got busy w/ life
^ I guess life is allowed.
user10957435
So, just an FYI, I mentioned you guys on meta. Not in a bad or critical way or anything like that. I'm just letting you guys know because I know you guys like to know when people mention you on meta.
@Chipster Thank you for the heads up. I do notice SOCVR has been mentioned a few times already throughout that thread
user10957435
8:30 PM
Btw, thanks again @TylerH for helping me find the meta. You can probably tell now why I was asking...
@cigien Regarding GMTC, please see this message, and the discussion which begins a bit before this message which extends into the next day, a bit more here, and the links in those conversations. [However, reading more of the conversation I'm replying to, it looks like rene basically covered it. :) ]
@TylerH Ya I know, I might be more present (in answers) so I can have those too :)
user10957435
9:01 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ Never mind. I figured it out.
9:22 PM
@Makyen Yes, rene definitely gave me the gist of it, but the additional context is extremely helpful :) I think this is a clear guideline to follow, and it seems like it would cover most cases. If I understand it correctly, I can disparage a post as much as I want (and is justified), so long as I do it an a way that doesn't offend the OP.
9:41 PM
This answer looks like it's just garbled to me, but it's JS so I'd appreciate a second check stackoverflow.com/a/64615624
@cigien We're trying to stay away from things being said, particularly in requests, which are just disparaging posts. There's a noticeable difference between making strictly factual statements about the content of a post and making statements which are intended to disparage.
user10957435
@DavidBuck I think it was gabled before, but it seems better now.
@DavidBuck It was garbled, but had a kernel of an answer inside.
user10957435
With the edit it's better, I mean.
@Makyen Thanks. I must admit it looked like it was mostly chaff, but I didn't know which bits were wheat.
9:52 PM
np. It was really unclear what they were trying to say. I'm still not sure what a considerable portion of it meant. However, what they intended as a possible solution was sufficiently clear (although it was CSS not JS :) ).
@Makyen Yes, you're right. There's no way to interpret a disparaging comment as anything but offensive. It seems I've just misunderstood the term; a cursory search shows almost all synonyms to have negative connotations :( I was trying to describe the kind of comment I would make about a post that I think is, well, cr*p. But I suppose there's no reason to ever say something like that; I just need to find a way to communicate that idea with factual statements only.
user10957435
Question for the more experienced here. What does it mean when a close review has been invalidated? I feel like I've heard that indicates mod-action somehow, but I don't remember for sure.
@cigien Yeah, it may require a bit of effort in creative writing, but part of the point, in addition to not being offensive to OPs or other readers, is to allow other users to make up their own minds about a post's content. It's quite reasonable to bring specific factual aspects about a post to their attention, it's another thing to do it in a way, consciously or unconsciously, which overly biases them. [Anything you says is going to impart some bias, but part of the intent is to limit that.]
@Chipster It just means that the review ended without a resolution of the review through review actions. This could have many different causes (e.g. aging away of the close-votes or flags; the question being closed outside of review; etc.).
10:16 PM
@Makyen Phew, that's a hard one. I can try to convince other users about posts, but I need to try not to overly bias them. I'll have to think about that a bit, for sure :) And doing this might require more than a bit of effort in creative writing ;) But I think the intent makes a lot of sense, it's a good goal, even if not reachable. Thanks a lot for clarifying that :)
@cigien np. It can be difficult, from time to time. In general, if you stay strictly with just stating facts about the content, rather than an interpretation as to what it means or implies, then it usually isn't all that difficult to accomplish the largest portion of that, even though how the facts are presented can bias how people see something.
@10Rep It's the first time I see someone to post a cv-pls for their own question :O
@Makyen Indeed. And the first part is easy, it's the last part that's the most challenging to do honestly, and hence, the most interesting :)
I find that, for cv-pls requests, the standard "summary" reasons are sufficient (e.g. "Needs details..." or "Tyop" (sic)). Then if other folks in here want to discuss/debate/question your reasons, you can go into more specific detail.
... for reopen-pls requests, it's a bit trickier, but a short summary like "Sufficient details added" normally works.
10:35 PM
@AdrianMole That's where I think care is needed. It's not completely clear yet to me, how to go into specific detail without letting my opinions "overly bias" other users. I don't think it will be an issue in the vast majority of cases, but recognizing the cases where I am doing that might be hard.
@cigien For posts where it's clear that it's not a howto Question and the author expects a full implementation, it's not biased to say that it's not clear what they're having trouble with, as it's really not clear. Or that it lacks focus as it seems to not narrow in the particular problem.
@AdrianMole Sorry for having Fun ;) but I learned a new word as a result of the above discussion, contumelious. It's quite pretty :)
Sounds like a C++20 thing.
@AdrianMole :D It sure sounds plausible :)
... "I'm trying to define a vector of contumelious concepts but the compiler doesn't like it..."
10:51 PM
@Scratte Yes, I agree, those seem reasonable. On the other hand, I have used "Homework Dump" before to describe some posts, and I think that might be questionable, since it makes it seem like I have a lower opinion of it than a run of the mill "lacks focus" post, and that would bias other users.
Hmm, but I do have a lower opinion of it... Now I have to figure out how to communicate that.
Maybe "Really lacks focus" :p
@cigien I find it a little problematic to call it a "homework dump". I've seen it, but you never know the struggle of other people. I do not expect that most of those posts are made by users that struggled a lot, but one never knows. It's entirely possible that they've tried to solve the homework for a week and just don't know how to post properly.
@cigien But you don't need to communicate that you have a low opinion of it :) You can just state the facts and think your own thoughts, no? Everyone else may think the same, but just state that: It's not very focused and it's missing the "description of the difficulty the author is having solving it" :)
@Scratte Yeah, I think that's a very good point. Even if those cases are rare, there's no good way of distinguishing them up front, and it's not fair to those OPs to call it a "Homework Dump".
One of the hardest things when learning new things is to know what to ask about. When all the details are fussy, one doesn't even know what to search for. When someone then asks for a details, it can come as a surprise there even is such a details to be found. I get that sometimes when I install software and it starts to ask me configuration questions, and I have no clue what it's asking me about :)
I think the point is that it's not just us 'regulars' who get to see the chat (we tend to know each others' mannerisms and styles). New users come in to see what we do, and some come in to 'chase up' an issue ... and we don't want them to think of us as a mob. Also, from time to time, Community Managers (and higher staff) pop in to see what we're up to.
I think there are more lurkers than users that "pop in".
11:07 PM
@Scratte Hmm, I guess you're right. I think I might be valuing my own opinion too much. That may be what leads me to make a request about a post, but from that point on, I should keep my opinions to myself, and then use only factual statements to discuss the post. That seems very reasonable.
What are lurkers? Doesn't one need an SO account to observe these rooms?
@cigien The rooms are public. You can load it in a browser where you're not logged in.
@Scratte Oh, thanks. I don't where I dreamed that up :p
If you are logged in, then you effectively join the room and everyone can see you're in it :) Of course lurkers can't speak in the room.
@Georgy Yeah, same for me. I just realised that my question is the result of a stupid typo, so I thought it should be closed :)
11:23 PM
@10Rep It seems you are however involved in that post, no?
@10Rep I understand wanting to do that :) But you're not really supposed to request actions on posts you're involved with. There's some rules about it in the FAQ, see #15.
I also expect that deleting it would have been more.. natural :) As now it will become both closed and deleted, meaning it will count more towards a Question ban.
11:44 PM
Hehe. Now I'm fed up with C++, so I just started learning Haskell!
... apparently, my Evil Nemesis is "AMadeilnor". This language is a Piece of Cake!
@AdrianMole I have no idea what you just said there. But I had the same idea with a different language in mind :)
I did a Haskell command! sort "Adrian Mole" and that's what it told me!
Are you going to create a secondary account for your Haskell contributions as your evil nemesis? Is your shirt going to be red? :D
@AdrianMole You misrepresented the output.. tsk tsk..
11:53 PM
Go to Step 5 and it will tell your your evil twin nemesis.
I'm at step 7, and mine is "Sacertt".. I have no spaces ;)
@Scratte Slow down, or you'll start earning reputation!
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