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3:12 PM
@TylerH is it really POB?
 
@desertnaut yes, what's "clean" is a matter of opinion
Questions asking for opinion-based improvements sometimes might be OK, if OP can provide specific, objectively measurable criteria
In that case, OP just said "what's a cleaner/better way to write this"?
 
I think here we can take it to implicitly mean "less lines of code"
but that's just me, of course...
 
So.. an edit to ask for "Is there another way to do this" would make it on-topic?
 
@Scratte sounds like indeed
 
I prefer "cleaner" over "another". There's always another way.
 
3:17 PM
And.. it wouldn't even invalidate a single answer
 
@JohnDvorak agree
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that it would never struck me as POB...
 
@JohnDvorak But if one word gets the Question closed, then it should really be part of a no-go regex for questions.
 
Although, "legally" speaking, @TylerH has a point
 
didn't vote either. It does strike me as not too useful, but that's a different topic.
OK, here's objective definition for "cleaner": more likely to pass code review and/or a pull request.
 
I'm out of CVs, but I would refrain from voting, too
 
3:20 PM
Not sure. As far as I understand primarily opinion based is meant to avoid bad answers and opinionated discussion.
 
Exactly
 
I'm not seeing any of that in the Question thread.
 
Yup; it could be argued that it needs clarity ("what do you mean by cleaner/better?"), but no so much as POB
 
Perhaps that's a bit nitpicking. We don't define messy code either.. we just sort of know it when we see it.
 
3:27 PM
It is indeed nitpicking; but a comment like that would probably lead the OP to be more specific in what exactly they are after
Anyway, question is now closed as POB
 
agree on commenting
 
Sorry. If a better comment is warranted, let me know. I'll remove mine.
 
@desertnaut we can infer whatever we want, but there's no clear, objective implication in "cleaner/better". What does OP mean by cleaner/better? Could be fewer LoC. Could be 'more atomic'. Could be 'portable'. Could be 'using some newer functions'. Could be "calls some class elsewhere to stay as light as possible" Could be "runs faster" (in which case... how much faster?). Could be a dozen other things.
The problem is there could be endlessly different answers with completely different implementations and they could all be equally correct. It's not even a case of there being just two or three schools of thought.
All this being said, you're not obligated to act on or agree with any *-pls request. :-)
 
@TylerH all these are indeed valid concerns; as already argued, a comment would arguably lead the OP to be more specific.
And I now I am not obliged to agree with anything suggested here, I just thought that a discussion in good faith would be desirable in principle
 
3:34 PM
Sure, a comment might help. Might not, though. And in the meantime, there's no issue with closing it, since its current state (and its state for an entire week) is currently an off-topic one.
It can always be reopened if OP edits it. Unfortunately in this case, editing the answer significantly, such that it'd be clearly on-topic, runs a good chance of invalidating some of the existing answers.
 
@TylerH was I wrong in thinking so?
 
It is an unfortunate catch-22 that applies to many questions on the site
 
I insist that "cleaner" is an objective criterion.
 
@JohnDvorak The gentleman doth insist too much
 
And I even more strongly insist that treating it as such is beneficial to the site.
 
3:36 PM
@JohnDvorak I don't see how "clean code" is objective at all
You google for what clean code means you get tons of different results
 
more likely to pass code review
 
whose code review? what are the criteria for that review?
 
something that a linter wouldn't yell at you for?
 
which linter? Which settings on the linter enabled?
 
Fine. More likely to pass a pull request into a generic very large github project run by decent people?
 
3:38 PM
still quite broad/vague
 
@TylerH lots of github repos have linter configs set and ask you to run a lint command before making a PR
 
Lets just define it as "less messy". "Is there a less messy way of doing this?"
 
@Jabster28 Sure. Did OP mention a specific linter config he wanted to pass?
 
You could close literally every question as unclear. You shouldn't.
And I challenge thee to challenge my usage of the word "literally".
 
@JohnDvorak I disagree, but let's not change the subject (I won't bother looking up exactly which logical fallacy was just employed)
 
3:42 PM
I'm saying that your criteria for clarity are too strict to be beneficial for the site.
 
The discussion at hand is how you can objectively describe what "cleaner" code is.
 
I can tell you for sure: fewer lines != cleaner.
More lines != cleaner
 
Except for c.. where fewer lines are sometimes more messy ;)
 
Fewer lines = leaner? I can agree on that I think.
 
@JohnDvorak OK. Those are examples of what cleaner doesn't mean. Can you tell me, objectively, what cleaner does mean? If not, then we have a situation where I have demonstrated the ambiguity of "cleaner" and you have... not shown otherwise
 
3:44 PM
I have another idea: suggest to me a better question for the site and I'll tell you why it's not.
If we go by literal interpretations of everything we'll quickly arrive in a world that's worse than the world we are in ... and that's a pretty high bar.
 
@JohnDvorak I don't need to go find a good question on the site; you need to demonstrate how "cleaner" is objective.
@JohnDvorak You keep misrepresenting the issue, so I'm going to stop participating.
 
@TylerH It's intuitive for most people, so any definition is impossible, but most of us understand it implicitly. Like we understand messy.
 
The question does not attract opinionated answers. That's the important part here.
@TylerH correct me then
 
@Scratte We all understand what we would consider cleaner, and a lot of that overlaps. The point is that without describing exactly what you mean when you say it, there's a good chance you'll pick something that doesn't overlap with what OP means.
 
@JohnDvorak that's the operational definition I would use myself indeed
Any definition that is not operational is useless here
 
3:49 PM
@TylerH that risk exists every time. It's not the fault of a single word. It cannot be avoided.
 
@TylerH But that doesn't make it primarily opinion based. That just makes perhaps one individual not agree. Like the guy in the basement who thinks a cup is clean whenever new coffee goes in it.
 
By the time y'll figured out what opinionated means, 99 new opinionated questions have been asked ...
5
 
We cannot know that, since we don't agree :D
 
lol
 
3:53 PM
In other words: please focus on homework dumps, debug requests and software polls. Questions harmful to the site.
 
99 opinions on the site... Take one down, delete it out now... 162 opinions on the site...
 
@JohnDvorak I'll focus on what I would like to focus on; you can focus on what you would like to focus on as well.
 
It would be great if some sort of consensus could be reached. Instead of users closing and re-opening posts due to differences in opinion. Also.. what's a user to think when that happens to their post?
 
At least they'll know we're not a voting ring :D
more like a voting C :P
 
How about we start a voting ring where we will close each others questions?
 
4:07 PM
@Scratte People are allowed to have different opinions. People are also allowed to re-close or re-open vote on questions they think should not be closed/opened. I don't see a practical issue with this. If it happens so much that it becomes problematic, typically the Q will be mod deleted/locked.
 
@Dharman that's forbidden by the room rules
 
I was joking... Apparently I am not that funny
 
edit -- sniped by Dharman
 
I was playing along
 
Not sure how taking a joke literally is playing along...
 
4:08 PM
@TylerH It's a problem to any individual who wants to ask a Question.
I am for one not asking any Question as I don't want to be the center of some close/reopen play-toy
 
How else would you play along with a joke?
 
@JohnDvorak you get it and go 'ha ha'?
@Scratte If a question is so on the brink that is being closed and opened multiple times, it almost definitely needs to be edited before it can hope to have a resolution
 
@TylerH once again we disagree.
@TylerH which is why the political statement on MSE never had any?
 
@TylerH No.. absolutely not. I like the how-to Questions. The how-can-this-be-improved Questions. All of those you want to close.
 
@Scratte who said I want to close such questions?
 
4:11 PM
You just closed one, no?
 
I closed an unclear/opinion question
 
it was clear to everyone else
 
no, it wasn't
 
Yup. It was clear to me too.
 
4:12 PM
once again we disagree
 
Anyway, we've already wrapped up that conversation, so let's drop it.
 
Faithful to my conscience, I have just voted to re-open the subject question (after some minor edits by myself which do not conflict with the OP's intent) stackoverflow.com/questions/62923317/…
I can leave now...
for today
 
Thank you :)
 
rv'd
 
@desertnaut Your edit didn't make any improvement that I can see
 
4:14 PM
Sorry.. I can't vote yet.
 
@desertnaut Terrible title. Nobody will ever find this question.
 
There are 2 reasons to re-open: 1) question was improved 2) question should not be closed in the first place
 
@Georgy feel free to suggest an edit
 
@desertnaut This is still not reopenable in my opinion. There's no improvmenet
 
OK, let's bring this back up. The question is asking for vague/unspecified improvements
 
4:15 PM
@desertnaut I was not reading the conversation, but I think the question should be closed
 
You yourself told us not to discuss the topicality, so we vote instead
 
@Dharman I respect all opinions (including of course yours and @TylerH 's); that does not mean that I have to always agree
 
I just don't want users to be confused somehow in thinking that "how can this be cleaner/better" is somehow objective/clear.
 
And I don't want them to be confused into thinking it's not
 
It's also one thing to close a question that may or may not be good. It's a different thing to reopen one
 
4:17 PM
What exactly is this question asking about?
 
making the code less messy :)
 
@Scratte what does less messy mean?
 
If they don't show any code, it's unclear what they tried. If they do, it's unclear what's wrong with it. It's a catch-22.
 
@Scratte Remove the code? Without explanation of what it is supposed to do or which parts we can change there is no way to answer this properly
 
@JohnDvorak those are not the issues at debate here
 
4:18 PM
@TylerH it's a change to code that a reasonable person would make when considering it as production code.
 
How will this question every help anyone? Do you think someone will Google "how to make this function better" and be happy with the answers?
 
I agree the title is terribad
 
@JohnDvorak that's so broad/vague as to be laughable. SO isn't the place for "hey I wrote this function, please suggest any change to it that most people probably would consider an improvement"
 
If you want to ask such questions you can head over to Code Review, but I think this question would be close there too
there is no explanation what they want the code to do
 
Fine. How about: I believe this code would be considered messy by a reasonable person. How do I make it not messy?
 
4:20 PM
If you have code that you want to improve by some measure, and need help, great! (cc @Scratte re: "how to"/"how do I"). But specify the measurement you are looking for.
 
measure: not messy
 
Let's abstract it away from code to show how unclear this is: "how do I make this cake taste better"
 
As considered by a generic eater of a cake of that name
 
You will get responses showing how to make the cake taste sweeter, more cake-like, more brownie-like, more bitter, someone will add a lemon meringue, etc.
Meanwhile we still have no clue what OP means by making the cake taste better
 
"How to avoid multiple if statements?" "How to select a number of items from an array?" "How to create an array of N items from constant values?"
 
4:22 PM
@TylerH did that happen to the question in question?
 
@JohnDvorak Yes
 
If you want to reopen it you must state a clear problem description. You can't just say "Hey! Make this code better for me"
 
You got someone suggesting ternary operators. You got someone suggesting a switch statement. You got someone suggesting a slice() method.
 
That does mean the question is more likely to be helpful to those who find it though.
 
@TylerH Perhaps also the parse-and-sort-one-go Question that I really liked which was closed by meta puts a dent in any inclination for me to ask any Questions. I agree the title it bad, but honestly, if I ever really have an issue.. I'm still not asking it on Stack Overflow.
 
4:24 PM
@JohnDvorak sorry, by "did that happen to the question in question?" I thought you were referring to the varied responses, not what OP meant
 
so really I should have responded "no" if you were referring to the latter
 
Point taken, the question did get a variety of answers. I argue that that a variety of answers isn't necessarily a bad thing.
 
@TylerH That's easy.. everything has much more sugar and fat now then ever before, so add more of that.
It sells more because people agree that's what they want..
 
@Scratte Really? Maybe OP's problem is they don't like things to taste so sweet. Congrats, you've just misguessed what OP means by "better" :-)
 
4:26 PM
Are the constants variable too?
Will there always be 3 constants?
 
I'm almost willing to retract the reopen vote.
 
@TylerH That is not a good argument, because even if a Question is unambiguous, author may still not be happy with an answer.
 
Can I replace the constants with literals?
Can I get rid of the function completely?
 
Can, yes. Should, you're asking us in the wrong place (but in a comment, definitely not).
 
@Scratte If a question is unambiguous and the author is not happy with an answer, the author needs to explain why.
 
4:27 PM
I see no value in this question as it is. I say we delete it
 
Just like the case w/ this question: Author needs to explain what they mean by "cleaner/better"
 
@TylerH if they edit, it will be reverted. If they ask anew, they risk early Q-ban and even dup-votes
I disagree; the asker only needs to pick from the variety of answers presented
variety of answers is good for future finders
 
@TylerH Actually they can just downvote and wait for another answer.
 
@Scratte That, too, is unlikely to happen
 
@Dharman Maybe we can wait and see if the author wants to edit it first?
 
4:30 PM
@Scratte I doubt it since they already accepted an answer. They probably got what they wanted and moved on
 
@JohnDvorak They can ask excactly what I wrote in the comment. That will not invalidate answers. Even if the answers mentions "cleaner"
@Dharman I always assume they want to improve.. until I know that they will not.
 
@JohnDvorak future readers, if they find this question (which is doubtful considering the vagueness of the title and body, and the specific ness of the code), might equally be frustrated as to why OP chose one of the answers when the given finder prefers another
 
but they can still find an answer that suits them by scrolling down.
 
@JohnDvorak maybe
 
I have an accepted answer with a much lower score than another answer too. I assume it was because the author found it most helpful to them.
 
4:33 PM
That searchers find is, indubitably, is a good thing.
 
Almost all visitors will probably not scroll past the question once they see it
since it's so unhelpfully vague
 
I would
maybe
It is also plausible I would downvote the question
 
JS questions such as this get 1000 times a day on SO and get closed/downvoted/deleted almost as much/quickly
 
I cannot count how many times I've landed on a closed Question and found a helpful answer.
And I always read all of the answers. I don't care if the score is -50. I still read it.
Which reminds me that I need a way to ungray the grays :)
 
I don't read below 0, because I expect them to be wrong
 
4:36 PM
 
that threshold is fuzzy
 
@JohnDvorak I expect them to be probably wrong.. but it could also be targeted voting. And I don't like to miss a perl, so just in case.
 
OK, it might be worth reading a -1. Probably not a -10 though.
 
Heh.. the Question I really liked was closed with a score of -10
 
I meant answer score
Heck. I usually don't read the question when I come from Google. Just the answers.
 
4:39 PM
I don't look at them too much to be honest. Before I joined I never noticed. After I joined.. there's just too many things going on to make an accurate determination from score.
 
5:23 PM
 
6:04 PM
 
6:31 PM
@Makyen that came out completely wrong. :( nothing of what I meant to say, it was supposed to be a humorous contradiction. way too far fetched. really sorry about it.
 
@bad_coder np. We all say things, from time to time, that don't read back nearly like they sounded when thinking about them/composing them. Please be a bit more careful in the future, as we all should try to be, particularly when things are moving fast. However, I'm really not the one to apologize to.
 
@Scratte I was actually going to mention it to you, I thought of you when I noticed I was close, and actually checked the source of Samuel's flagging userscript...unfortunately, I'm still only silver tier because I don't have 2000 flags yet :-p Just need 600 or so more helpful flags, which shouldn't be too hard. I've been churning through NLN comments, but I regretted using all my flags because I naturally happened across more and can't flag them until 5pm...
 
@RyanM But.. how many declined post flags do you have?
btw: comment flags doesn't help your status. Only post flags do.
Ooops..
 
6:53 PM
@Scratte It's language first, then an optional script, then an optional region (plus some more stuff, see BCP 47 for more details). So en-US would be English as used in the United States, az_Cyrl is Azerbaijani written in Cyrillic script (as opposed to az_Arab, which is Azerbaijani written in Arabic script), etc. Your gb-en should be en-GB - English (United Kingdom).
@Scratte noooooo
 
@RyanM Yes.. red flags don't count either :)
 
@Scratte these flag scores are even sillier than I anticipated
 
With 11, you can't make the 1000 with a 0.5% obviously, but you'll make the 2000 with a 1.0% :)
 
What is the total, exactly? Does it include aged away/disputed?
 
6:57 PM
It's your total post flags versus declined post flags. Total includes all, retracted, disputed, ages away, used in parade.. no wait.. :)
I think I'll just make a small program to calculate the number of post flags needed depending on declined :)
 
@Scratte it counts retracted flags in the total?!
I'd submit a patch to make it do something less silly on principle/to make you flag more things, but I actually can't test it because I'm not a mod ^^;
 
@RyanM Yes.. it does. It makes sense. You flagged it, then a post was improved and you retracted it. You should get points for that :)
 
A large portion of my retracted flags were after I changed my mind and decided I shouldn't have flagged the post in the first place.
 
Go you your profile and look at the tool-tip when you hover the medal. The number corresponds to your total post flag count. The 1032
@RyanM Well.. that will make you gold faster, I guess :D
 
@Scratte I actually can't see a flag medal on my profile...where am I looking? (I installed the script)
 
7:05 PM
@RyanM It's suppose to be here
Since I have 5 declined and it has to be less than 0.5%, I didn't get the gold at 1000 post flags.
But the script rounds the percentage to 2 decimals before the comparison.
 
ahhh, I see it now. I was on the Activity tab.
 
Oh.. Sorry, I did not make that obvious.
 
7:31 PM
30 mint to go to the next socvr mód
Gettin mah cornz reád
 
8:06 PM
Woo Hoo! Congratulations to our two Moderator ROs, Makyen and Machavity! :)
49
 
Congratz @Machavity @Makyen!
 
2020 Community Moderator Election Results - Congrats @Makyen and @Machavity!
12
 
Congrats @Machavity and and @Makyen to hold diamond. .
 
Amazing results! Congrats @Machavity and @Makyen!
 
Many thanks to you all for your votes. I'm overwhelmed
18
 
8:08 PM
Big result for Big Mak/ch
 
I feel the world is sane after all :)
2
 
Thank you all for your support. It's greatly appreciated.
18
 
Congrats to both of you! And to @Dharman for a good showing as well - I'm sure you'll keep those two very busy, and look forward to seeing you in future elections :-)
 
I hope @Dharman will run again in 6 months
4
 
@Dharman I know you'll be a fine mod. You should run again next year
3
 
8:10 PM
Congrats @Machavity & @Makyen!
 
@Scratte The Grand Plan to delete all garbage can wait 6 months.
 
So who runs this place now? The flower? :p
 
@Scratte Scratte telling me that the world feels sane is ... not that reassuring. ;-P
 
@Nick They're still Room Owners.. just with a twist :)
 
@Machavity Now you get to glue a diamond onto your hard hat.
 
8:14 PM
@AdrianMole I was afraid that the Stack world may have been insane.. so I'm really very happy about this outcome :)
 
@Makyen You'll need a fourth galaxy in your picture to make the correct shape.
 
Mak and Mach join a long list of mods who were once SOCVR regulars, starting from josilber, way back in 2015 to Baum & Jean, from last year.
 
@AdrianMole :)
 
So...how long until the flag queue is empty? :-)
 
The diamonds are already on!.. Awesome :-)
 
8:18 PM
It should be empty within 5 days, else they're slow pokes
 
Congrats M*'s!!!:D
 
@RyanM We'll have to figure it out.. Might take a bit. :)
 
I really hope that none of you will be too busy to hang out here. You keep the place in good order.
 
I think SOCVR needs two more RO :)
 
@Shree Sounds like you're volunteering? :)
 
8:22 PM
:D
 
@Scratte As far as I know, both @Machavity and I intend to still be around.
2
 
2 days ago, by Shree
Election vibe. When next SOCVR RO nomination start?
@StephenKennedy ^
 
Now we'll all have to be more careful when making sly remarks about lurking mods. :-)
 
2 days ago, by Shree
I don't see previous elected RO Stephen Kennedy so much active.
:D
 
@AdrianMole Nah.. They're not lurking if they're here :)
 
8:26 PM
Oh, dang it, I banned rene. BRB :P
7
 
hehe
 
Poor rene. :(
 
@Machavity I actually went to check the profile :D
 
Remember new mods, use blood for signing the Mod agreement.
 
user10957435
@Machavity Congrats on moderatorship!
 
user10957435
8:31 PM
You too, @Makyen!
 
FYI, if you are seeing less blue, remember to refresh your browser.
 
Or just click the name
 
Zoe
@Machavity was the button that blurry? :p
 
Old message , now it's ........
https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/111347?m=47123702#47123702
:)
 
Congrats @Machavity and @Makyen
 
8:44 PM
@Zoe I thought it said "Would you like to bin rene?"
 
@Machavity & @Makyen Congratulations! I am so happy that you have both become elected.
10
What I am a little disappointed is that I didn't make the third place. I was really hoping for that.
 
Democracy sucks .
 
Well, you're 4th, so if I resign in the next 6 months, you and Travis will be called up.
 
It was probably that user that got mad when you edited out "hope this helps." =P
 
@IanCampbell You mean the thousand users whose posts I have edited in the past week to remove HTH
 
8:49 PM
@BhargavRao please dont.
4
 
I think it shows it really doesn't matter if you are a good candidate or not as long as you have a high score.
At least when the choice is limited.
However, I am glad that the election didn't go craze and the two people who deserved it the most got elected.
 
@Dharman I think that's it. Most of the 30,000 probably just looked at the Candidate Score, Reputation and the 'niceness' of the Avatars.
 
I really expect you to prioritize my flags now. I have like 60 pending flags for the past few weeks
 
@Dharman You put in a strong showing, but you were significantly hampered by a somewhat lower candidate score.
 
Honestly, I only voted because of the nice hard hat.
 
Zoe
8:51 PM
@AdrianMole in some cases, it's... just politics
 
That as well. ^
 
From now on no more moderation for me. I will start answering duplicates and low quality posts to get repped for the next year
 
:(
 
@Makyen and @Machavity that blue username suits you very well @Dharman good luck next time and work on your scores!
 
@Dharman FWIW I was 8th last year and Makyen was 6th
 
8:54 PM
@Dharman Have you considered a voting ring? I hear they're all the rage these days.
 
I have but I would then accidentally raise a flag against myself
 
@Dharman Name recognition counts quite a bit too. Most nominees don't do as well as you did the first time they run.
 
I mean flagging them is more fun than getting rep...which is probably why I had low candidate score
@Makyen I have never heard of Travis until the election
 
@Dharman check out the vote runoff of the table, you were first option of many voters that put Mak and Macha as second choice.
 
Congratulations to @Makyen and @Machavity! Well deserved
 
8:57 PM
@Dharman They've been around for quite a while, and have run in at least 2019.
 
@Braiam where is it?
 
It's just so strange to see the blue names that once were red and italic..
 
@Dharman I've noticed Travis J on meta before the election.
 
I remember a candidate that was second option to many voters, but lost since it didn't got enough first choice fotes.
 
8:58 PM
Too many chat rooms going at once. Thank you all for your support
 
@Machavity Don't worry.. from now on it will not slow down :D
 
@Dharman Frustration ? Not all user participate on SOCVR / Sobotics but they are eligible.
 

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