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12:40 AM
@Scratte I did some accidental digging and found this in an answer (now deleted) from one of the "Beloved": The fact that people find something useful and/or worthy of an upvote doesn't mean that it is on topic or otherwise suitable for Stack Overflow. Upvotes and views measure entirely different things than topicality. (Not to mention that the question was asked back in 2008, which has not only given it much more time to attract attention and upvotes, but back in 2008, ...)
... The Q/A (on Meta, and about a different question than we were arguing about) is now deleted (but it has one undelete vote). I can get a full screenshot and/or try to get it undeleted, but I'm not sure that's appropriate.
@AdrianMole I'm sure there are reason to get rid of it. What I do not like is that it's removing a post that many people landed on.. and there's no harm in the post itself. There's no harm in keeping it closed here. No one will ever say: Look, this one was asked and it's open :D.. So when you delete this post, it will go away from Stack Overflow for nothing and it will drive users to other sites instead.
@AdrianMole Is this some sort of hidden achievement?
You'd almost say it was a... meta achievement.
Fair enough. I am now both tired and (a bit) drunk. Dalija made (I think) a good case in bringing the post to the attention of this room; if Cody (or any other beloved blue-person) want's to continue the debate, then that's OK with me.
@Machavity It certainly should be! I don't think even rene has been review-banned on Meta.
TylerH once said in here, that they've never been review banned.. at all.
12:47 AM
... at least a (hard) hat in the WinterBash?
FWIW I have 110 reviews on Meta. Like 18k on the main site
@Machavity I have 45 ... so, watch out, I'm gainin' on ya!
When does one get access to reviews on meta?
@Scratte And somebody else said, "If you ain't been banned, you ain't never reviewed."
You get the same review privs at the same time on Meta as the main site. But Meta doesn't have all the queues main does
12:51 AM
@Scratte Same as the main site. Only review queues (at least, that I see) are Close, Reopen and Edits.
@AdrianMole Review bans aren't public, but I assume they were truthful :)
I (honestly) can't remember who said it ... but it was in here.
... probably the man wi' the 'range hat.
I accidentally clicked on the review icon on meta a few times and got the "There are no review..." and then assuming I got banned again :D Until I uBlocked the icon.
@AdrianMole Not a very talkative individual, but often sharp and to the point :)
TylerH once told me that there are other queues, but only for very special folks. Maybe he was pulling my watchamacallit.
Hidden queues?
12:56 AM
@Scratte Sharp as an RSJ dropped by a crane.
@Scratte LQP was mentioned.
RSJ as Religious Sister of St Joseph? Why would one be dropped by a crane?
Rolled Steel Joist? Those are probably lifted by cranes...
Cuz she didn't pay the fee.
@RyanM I think reinforced - but otherwise OK.
Engineer will know - credit to his team.
Ohh.. an H-beam
@MikeM. if/whenever you have a moment, could I get your opinion as someone who's trying to answer Android questions on whether this was a good gold-badge close, and/or whether you think it's useful? I think it was an incorrect closure, for the reasons I explain in my comment, but I could use a second opinion. Disclosure: this is my question/self-answer.
1:01 AM
You're walking on thin ice, buddy.
(also ROs can feel free to scold me if I'm treading too close to a request for my own post - I'm trying to keep my distance from breaking the rules and being upfront about the disclosure, but want a second opinion/ideas for how it could be improved)
Well, you gave the disclosure, so ...
I didn't see a vote request, just a individual request for a second opinion..
also definitely prepared to take it to meta if need be, I'm sick of people saying that the question that this was closed as a duplicate of didn't help them until I explained the things in my answer...
I firmly believe that it's useful, even if perhaps something needs to be tweaked.
I think the point is (and, to be sure, I'm no SME) that "NullPointerExecption" is a primary keyword for closure. It comes up so often and I can understand why folks close such posts so quickly.
1:09 AM
@AdrianMole I do not understand that at all. I always read a post entirely before I evaluate it.
That's the entire reason I wrote this, to have an actually-useful option to close posts with that won't result in "no, that didn't help"
And I will often skip in review. But it is a real problem.
@RyanM I think you'll need to make your case in a comment and hope any reviewers in the reopen queue read that. Good luck.
Skipping is better than judging too fast
@AdrianMole the problem with that is that the reopen queue doesn't show comments.
@Scratte Agreed. But tell that to the other 10,000 or so active reviewers.
@RyanM Sometimes it does. I think if an edit has been made.
1:13 AM
That is just not a sane decision to not show comments in a queue!
It's definitely behind a click if an edit has been made.
I fail to see how that post is any more useful than a combination of both the NPE canonical and the stacktrace canonical, the issue is more people not reading them, not them not answering the question
Hey. I'm one of the top page Reopen folks. Are you saying there's something I've missed?
@Nick The problem is that neither explain either 1) how to tell which variable was null using the error message, because that's Android-specific, or 2) Common causes of the error on Android.
Android's VM, as of Android 5.0, includes an error message saying exactly which call generated the NPE
If I don't edit a (hint: variableName is null) into the duplicate suggestion, the inevitable response is that it didn't help
1:17 AM
@RyanM OK - you're right. It's just that I nearly always look at the post in its 'native state' when I'm reviewing that queue. I forgot that you don't see comments. Maybe worth a FR on Meta?
@RyanM That just means they clearly didn't spend long enough reading and understanding the duplicate, not that it's incorrect
@Nick My two responses are 1) the duplicate doesn't explain how to do that, because it's written for desktop Java, which does not allow you to do that without modifying the code to put each call on a separate line, whereas on Android it's just a matter of reading the error message (which the post doesn't explain how to do), and also 2) I'm trying to meet users where they are. They clearly need additional help; I'm offering that additional help.
Thanks for the input, though! I do appreciate it, even if I disagree.
@RyanM Yeah, I saw you post that earlier, but I haven't had a chance yet to read it thoroughly. I had a feeling that that's what was going to happen, especially since you tagged it [java], too (even though the hammerer has gold in [android], apparently).
@Makyen Done.
It would be boring if people never disagreed. There are helpful answers on those questions that explain NPE in general, while the errors shown are java examples, they're not specific to java, the same debugging techniques could be applied to totally unrelated languages. I'm of the opinion that people need to learn to help themselves, even if that means learning to use a debugger.
1:25 AM
@RyanM I'll have a better look at it later, but at first glance, I would say that it might be too similar to the generic Java NPE canonical. If I were doing this, I'd probably gloss over most of that, in both the question and answer, and approach it like the user already knows what an NPE is,@RyanM basically, but doesn't understand the particular Android intricacies that are causing theirs;
@AnnZen Thanks!
@RyanM ... e.g., your findViewById() examples, or instantiating Activity classes, or calling ContextWrapper methods in field initializers, etc. Focus on the Android stuff, I mean, basically. And definitely change that title. :-)
Just my opinions, here. I've never done a canonical, so I can't really offer anything from experience.
Oooh, yeah, good point about the title...and the other bits about focus
but yeah, I'm happy to accept any feedback that would set it on the road to a reopen.
@AnnZen Well, actually, there are 10 more cv-pls requests from you which have 0 close-votes.
funny, I ctrl-f them...
1:29 AM
@AnnZen here's a list of all the remaining active ones (some of which you may have voted on): chat.stackoverflow.com/…
At least one of the remaining ones I know I'm the only one who CVed, as well
@AnnZen If you're willing to use userscripts, we have the Unclosed Request Review Script (URRS) (GitHub) (install), which gives some post status information and allows you to sort the search results on several criteria.
"Focus on the Android stuff" - This is certainly a good point, looking at your attempted canonical, it feels like I'm reading a Java question, not an Android question, is there any reason not to add android relevant information to the Identify the null values section of this NPE canonical answer @RyanM
(sorry for many pings)
(no worries on the pings)
@Nick I'm hesitant to add a bunch of Android-specific information to a non-[android] [java] question, for one. I wouldn't dump a bunch of framework-specific stuff in there for any other framework, and I'm not sure Android is an exception to that.
@Scratte I don't know of a way for a user to look up if they have had a review ban. As far as I know, you'd just have to remember if you've noticed you've had one. As the past few months have shown, users often don't know when they've been banned from reviewing.
I guess my biggest issue with it is that the only part I feel adds value to the existing answers is the: "Common root causes and fixes" section, a canonical of common android NPEs and resolutions would probably be more helpful (if you can write it to be on topic)
1:40 AM
@Makyen Done.
The rest reads as it would with a Java question
@Makyen You're right. There's noway to know, so not only is it not public, it's also not private ;) But I have a feeling that one could ask in Samuel's room
@Makyen Yeah, so the fact the new message will persist is nice
2:03 AM
@Makyen As someone who has recently 'suffered' a system-enforced review break, one can always go to the global review page; then, clicking on any of the 'available' queues will tell you if/why/when you have a ban, and when that ban will end.
@AnnZen at risk of sounding like a broken record, there are still two posts from you with zero close votes: 1 2. If you don't believe they should have close votes any more, you should ping an RO to have the request removed.
... not sure how that works for those without specific RQ privs, though.
2:31 AM
@RyanM I don't know Java, but why couldn't your answer fit on the canonical dup-close target?
@Nick That will be quite helpful
@Makyen Do you feel that a framework-specific answer belongs on a non-framework specific question? Or to make it a JavaScript analogy: Would a guide to troubleshooting NPEs in React belong on this question?
sorry, that's python. Pretend that's a JavaScript question for Uncaught TypeError: can't access property "bar", foo is null
The basic gist is that that error message does not exist outside of Android. You just get "java.lang.NullPointerException"
@AdrianMole Yes. Unfortunately, the need to go there really isn't all that discoverable for people that are in a review ban. As I understand it, the review drop-down just says you have no reviews available and gives no link. It would be much better if that link was at least still available in the drop-down, although I guess the user could still middle-click the review icon
@RyanM That specific error has both a generic canonical/answer, but also other canonicals which explain common reasons why the thing that was null wasn't what the user expected (e.g. the OPs DOM search method didn't find anything). So, for that one, users are usually pointed at the root cause, rather than the generic "this is what it means to be null".
As I said, I don't know Java. I wasn't trying to say that it shouldn't be separate, just that having it on the common canonical should be considered.
2:51 AM
That's fair, and I appreciate that input. The fact that it comes off as "this is what it means to be null" is probably a problem in itself, since I tried not to focus on that and instead link to other questions that do that, but I can see how it might come off that way.
@AnnZen Thank you for taking care of those. I suspect it might feel like we were hounding you about this. It really wasn't our intent to do that. It's not something that we were actively tracking down. That the questions have no close-votes is something that just jumps off the search/review page when using the userscript I linked earlier. A question in that list having no close-votes is fairly unusual, so it ends up being very obvious, particularly when there are a significant number of them.
@RyanM I honestly don't know. I have not read the question and answer in detail, because I really don't feel qualified to judge it, particularly not in relationship to the NPE canonical, which people consider very closely related. My comments are primarily based on the discussion in here. I really don't know Java. I know enough to know what a NPE is, and basic causes, because it's such a common issue, and because, generalized, it's a fairly common issue across multiple programming languages.
So, in other words, please don't interpret my comments as specific about the detailed content of your question and answer. My comment about "this is what it means to be null" was entirely about the JavaScript canonical situation.
3:07 AM
@CodyGray If someone gave me your writing, my first thought would be:"This guy's from California". :D
3:26 AM
@IanCampbell Not if it's exactly the same user. You, too, can vote to close such questions, even without a dupehammer. Yes, it's an intended use case. A mod flag might also be appropriate, so we can reach out to the user about re-asking the same question.
@bad_coder That's odd, because I'm from Texas. :-)
Only moved to Cali about 2 years ago for work.
@CodyGray I'm allergic to mod flags.
@IanCampbell Hmm. That's an unusual affliction.
But I'll start voting to close such duplicates.
I break out in a terrible rash. What can I say?
@IanCampbell I can relate to that.
Even though I assume you're kidding, there's bound to be some element of truth there, which makes me ever so curious (and concerned).
To my knowledge, no moderator has ever managed to reach out and slap a user for raising a bad flag.
3:32 AM
I know you all are overworked, and I try very hard to not add to be backlog.
That's kinda twisted logic. To quote a colleague:
@mickmackusa people that abuse the system by targeting are the bigger fish. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 16 hours ago
In other words, while there is indeed a backlog of flags, (1) handling them is (part of) our job, which we were elected to do, (2) as long as you're not raising a large number of spurious flags, you're not creating a problem, and (3) all of them need to be handled, for the good of the site. Ignoring the problem and/or not letting us know about it doesn't help anyone.
It's a shame it took me so long to find out that Very low quality sends the posts to the moderators. I thought they were like any other flag.
Flagging VLQ creates a review task in the Low quality posts review queue.
^^ ... and then, if the community doesn't handle it after 1 hour, it sends the post to the moderator flag dashboard.
Mods can speed this up, and see all NAA and VLQ flags even if 1 hour hasn't passed since they were raised, but we generally don't do so unless we run out of other flags (it has happened, but not in the last couple of months).
The review task can be resolved by 3 votes (if you have 20k or more rep) or 4 recommendations or votes for deletion.
3:37 AM
But it really shouldn't matter. Handling VLQ flags or NAA flags should not require any subject-matter expertise. Trusted users can and should vote to delete technically wrong/harmful answers in certain cases, but this doesn't happen via VLQ or NAA flags, and you shouldn't raise VLQ or NAA flags on this basis. As such, it doesn't matter whether mods or the community handle it.
@CodyGray I would love how that would go down in the TL. :)
@Braiam Whaddya mean? TL == Teachers' Lounge? Why would they have any objection?
That argument has been throughoutly rejected by most moderators of SE.
@CodyGray Because most believe they should see context.
If you stumble across one of these posts from, say, NATO, you can access the review queue to cast your own recommendation by clicking the "From Review" link.
Oh, I believe in seeing context. That's different from correctness.
NAA flags should be evaluated in terms of the question. But that's different than deleting an answer because it's wrong or giving bad advice.
3:39 AM
Without context, you are exposing to do an erred judgement.
Difference between NAA flag on a Python answer to a C++ question, versus NAA flag on a SQL answer to a SQL question that nevertheless suffers from an injection vulnerability bug.
@CodyGray NAA isn't the only way to delete an answer.
There's also VLQ. They're handled the same.
I've been trying to get an answer deleted that merely remixes my answer on SO, rejected twice.
Solution: we can answer some questions and get to 20k?
3:41 AM
@IanCampbell Nope, stuff is upvoted.
For some reason...
Alright, I got nothin'
@Braiam Remixes of existing answers can be very useful. Unless it fails to provide proper attribution, I don't see why there's any reason to delete it.
Yeah, we need more votes.
@CodyGray Well, no attribution either.
@CodyGray That would be my next guess. But definitely not Ohio, Kansas, Louisiana, among others...
It literally copies the package name and say "hey, this is what you should install"
Which of course it's included in my answer, months before :)
3:43 AM
I had almost the same senario, someone took my answer to make a question, mod-flag declined
@bad_coder ...really? You'd guess Texas? It's funny, because every time I travel within the US to give speeches or whatever, people always try to guess where I'm from, and nobody ever guesses Texas. I don't really have much of a Texas accent, and certainly not a stereotypical one.
@CodyGray Instead of remix, maybe I should say "watered down"
My lengthy answer explaining the why's and how's vs "copy paste this"
Yeah, generally custom flags are required there. While I do believe in reading the question to establish context, even I don't think it is reasonable or expected to read all of the existing answers when processing VLQ/NAA flags.
@CodyGray I could :)
@CodyGray My thought process is if I can vote to close a repost from a new user and explain it in a comment and they learn, then there's really no need to involve a moderator. If it happens a second time, then sure.
3:45 AM
@CodyGray The guys from Texas (that I know and think of) have a smart way about them...They don't come across as presumptuous and have a certain gentlemanly conduct that engages intellectually.
@Braiam If you run for moderator, I'll save all the "this question has 30+ answers; please review all of them for possible duplicates" flags for you.
@bad_coder Ah, well, good to hear that George W. Bush stereotypes haven't ruined the state for you. :-)
@IanCampbell Yeah, that's fair. I won't always bother to message first-time offenders, either. Unless it's like really egregious. The only thing is, you often don't know as a regular user how many times they've done it before. Often, they'll delete the first 4 times they asked, and what you think are the first and second are actually the 5th and 6th :-(
Hmm, that's a fair point. In fact, I have stumbled across that, only having additional information because I recognized the user and had the post in my browser history.
@halfer Correct.
@Daniil Yes, I see evidence of serial voting there. That would be a valid flag. Any time you suspect serial voting, it's reasonable to flag. Just beware that if we don't find anything, we may decline the flag. That doesn't necessarily mean you were wrong to have a suspicion. It's just our way of indicating that we looked yet didn't find anything. Not all declined flags mean you did anything wrong.
@CodyGray Can I delete answeres that are merely a subset of other better answers?
@Braiam I would say yes. But I'd qualify that by saying that you need to have some subject matter expertise, perhaps stated more concretely that you need to be prepared to defend (e.g., in a Meta post) your deletion of that answer and how it added nothing of value to the Q&A.
3:50 AM
@CodyGray I read in your SE philosophy profile you like moral theory, do you have a flavor of moral theology?
So I'll do it on C++ questions all day long. But I won't do it for JavaScript or Python questions because...yeah. On the other hand, when Sam does it on JavaScript questions, it's quite welcome. And he does do it, because he knows what he's doing there.
I Kant care about anything but you?
@bad_coder I'm a post-structuralist. But I've read and am familiar with pretty much everything. Used to teach philosophy and engage with it on a daily basis, but haven't in many years. I've forgotten more than most people will ever know about moral theory and other types of theory.
@CodyGray Aquinas??...
Well, it's nice to see that other people <strike>were forced to take ethics too</strike> get very excited about ethics.
3:52 AM
@bad_coder Familiar. Less engagement with the medieval period. Even less with Greco-Roman, since I mostly hated that.
@IanCampbell contradistincion :)
@IanCampbell Medical ethics doesn't count. Too concrete. :-)
@IanCampbell Eh, I didn't.
Boo, doesn't work.
- is your friend, also [help]
3:54 AM
I actually took Environmental ethics too
@DalijaPrasnikar Thanks; handled. Fortunately, the reviewers were mostly competent. :-) (I suspect that, once again, SE's refusal to display the actual close reason for questions closed as resource requests is at fault here. It's a 19.8k rep user who voted to re-open, almost surely because they thought, "duh, this is obviously programming-related". And...it is.)
@IanCampbell Three dashes before and after for strikeout in chat formatting
I don't get too friendly with the hyphens, though :-p
Yeah, I learned that from a helpful meta post about 5 seconds too late.
@CodyGray I looked at some ethics courses where "familiar" would amount to 2 or 3 slides...
@IanCampbell Again, help is your friend :)
Eh... I meant more that I've read most of the important sections of the works by Aquinas, and a handful of more modern interpretations, but not his entire output nor very many interpretations and almost no criticisms.
I certainly never taught it, though, so I'd certainly be the person whose ethics course you're panning :-)
3:58 AM
@CodyGray that's some scary reading...
Why scary?
@Braiam Hey, I only had a short time change the chat line to a snarky strikethrough, then I had even less time to fix the code. I cracked under pressure.
@CodyGray Don't worry, it's just all the long words you used.
Uh... well, then you'd better not try and read my answers on Philosophy, because I intentionally don't use big words or confusing language here.
Not reading philosophy on a daily basis has also made me a clearer writer, I think.
@Dharman Where is this "big red button" of which you speak?
I was wondering that at the time too, but afraid to ask.
4:02 AM
@ian I think you misunderstand. There's a help link in the bottom right that says "help" which has the flavor of markdown used in chat.
Ooooh, so fancy! Thanks
@CodyGray Link to your best answer on philosophy?
No earthly idea. Been too long since I posted answers there to remember each and every one. Also depends on what you mean by "best". An easy way to judge "best" might be community votes, but that isn't necessarily accurate...
@CodyGray Best, as in the one you're most proud of.
Top choices might be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
I'd have to remember what they all were to know what I'm proud of. And I don't really have favorites. I just answered the questions as they were asked. :-)
I didn't participate for all that many years, and never really wrote anything that stands out as especially awesome.
4:09 AM
@CodyGray What? You don't remember each and every post you've posted on the site? The horror!
@Braiam Yeah, I'm lazy.
A couple times I've been researching a question and stumble across my own answer. Makes me wonder if my memory is going.
Never really got around to writing any really good answers about Foucault, Lacan, or Derrida, whose thought was really my subspeciality. Mostly because there weren't many questions asked about them. Continental/postmodern/poststructuralist thought is not exactly popular out there in the real world.
@IanCampbell usually happens to me when I go looking for duplicates. I'll see it and think, "wow, this is well-answered", and only then notice the user card. I almost never remember having written them.
It makes me feel both arrogant and forgetful.
@CodyGray Quid for quo professor, my writing?
What do people think, NAA or just terrible answer: stackoverflow.com/a/62869109
4:16 AM
@bad_coder Meh, no strong opinions. Just the usual non-native speaker who doesn't get the idiosyncrasies right, which annoys me more than is in any way fair.
@IanCampbell NAA. Could be defensible if it wasn't total crap.
@CodyGray hahaha, oh come one, you're opinionated :)
I am, very. But I try not to pass judgments about people based on their writing style. I try to base them on the actual arguments they make, ideas they have, etc. In other words: content over style is my ideal. I don't always achieve it. As I said, I am unfairly judgmental of people who do not have good English skills. But I know that, so I try to suppress it.
(I am much more understanding of non-native speakers who have poor English skills. For native speakers.... Sigh. I don't try too hard to suppress that judgment...)
@Makyen I finally found something I disagree with Makyen on! This is a momentous occasion. When it comes to chocolate, the darker the better.
Good thing we agree about coffee and pineapple.
@CodyGray maybe that's why I end up look at the style, because going on the arguments there's not much worth considering...
I've learned way more today about theobromine than I needed to. Fun fact, it is excreted in breast milk.
@IanCampbell What is your daily quota of theobromine-related knowledge? Given the way things have been going recently, I think that's an important statistic to have for all of our regulars.
4:25 AM
@CodyGray Did you approve my cutting board edit?
@RyanM Are you kidding? Peanut butter stouts are the most amazing thing I've ever drunk! (But I assume you meant hard liquor, in which case... I haven't seen peanut butter flavor there, either. I somehow don't think PB&J vodka would be on my list of things to try.)
@AnnZen I have no idea. I haven't seen it. I guess I might have gotten an inbox notification about that, but I get 50-100 or more of those in a day, so I don't necessarily read them all.
@CodyGray Well, there I think we're just going to have to disagree. I would agree that if it's not dark, it's mostly a waste of time, but there's a point at which I feel there's too much cocao. OTOH, maybe that's just because I haven't tried the right brand. I'm willing to experiment. :)
@Makyen Yeah, I later saw where you allowed that milk chocolate is bad, so I can accept you after all.
Can we at least agree that white chocolate is an abomination? It's just sugar, without any of the good parts that make chocolate!
@CodyGray Yep. Definitely agree on that one. If I end up with some, I usually try to give it away.
4:28 AM
@CodyGray There are laws as to what qualifies as white chocolate.
There ought to be laws against white chocolate.
There should be laws against its production if you ask me.
Exactly
Ugh, just got to the part of the transcript containing the discussion about ketchup. While there might be some good ketchups in the world, almost everything in the US is high-fructose corn syrup-based nastiness.
rbrb
@AdrianMole I love a good debate! What are we debating? Is Dalija going to complain about the historical lock I applied to this post?
@RyanM Why do you need a separate Q&A there for Android? Why can't you just improve the existing answers, or post a new one specifically about Android?
4:35 AM
@IanCampbell That's called being a Gilles. It has tried several times to upvote its own answers.
4:48 AM
OK, now here's a tricky one maybe. This answer is an answer to a comment on another answer. Does that make it NAA? stackoverflow.com/a/62869376
@IanCampbell Yup. And mods can even convert an answer to a comment on another answer. If it were less obvious, a custom flag would probably be better to call our attention to the fact that it is, indeed, attempting to comment on another answer. But, in this case, with the @Kodig lead-in, it would be sufficiently clear for a NAA. That's NAA by any standard.
I'm...not even sure that one is worth converting to a comment. So I wouldn't say it's tricky at all.
(OK, it got edited while were discussing it, so at least now it's a bit more coherent.)
I guess I was just thinking of the guidance (I'm paraphrasing), "It doesn't have to be an answer to the OP's question, it just has to be an attempt at an answer to a question."
@CodyGray I was thinking of hard liquor. Peanut butter stouts sound tasty, and I'm not even usually a fan of stouts.
@RyanM Are you a kolsch kind of guy?
@IanCampbell Ugh. Don't get me started on "a question".
An attempt to reply to a comment isn't an answer.
@CodyGray Pale ales are my favorite type of beer
4:59 AM
Great, couldn't agree more. I'm going to save this for later.
@RyanM Oh, you're an IPA guy. Makes sense. Super trendy right now. I like a good IPA once in a while, especially the hazy ones. But overall they're not my favorite style.
OK, now think carefully before you answer Ryan, what is the best beer of all time?
I do like IPAs, though I appreciate pale ales in general
Can I answer that one, @Ian?
Maybe we should wait for Ryan...
Sure, anyone can answer
5:01 AM
Well, I don't want to give it away. I am confident that my answer is the correct one.
I have one in mind, but I doubt anyone will have had it before.
Oh, everyone's had the one I'm thinking of.
If you say Bud Lite, there will be trouble.
@IanCampbell Bud Light Lime Depends on the situation. For casual drinking where I want to have a few beers, I quite like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. For the combination of interesting/good, I'd have to go with Pliny the Younger.
Not bad choices
I'm quite partial to Two Hearted as an everyday kind of beer.
5:04 AM
I also quite like drier ciders - bonus points for hops.
@IanCampbell Ugh, absolutely not.
The correct answer is, "the one sitting in front of me".
@CodyGray if everyone's had that, you're doing social distancing wrong
At least there's less theobromine, right?
Heh
It's not a specific beer. More of a meta-category.
I can also attest that sometimes the beer in front of me is not the one I wish I had in front of me :-p
This applies, I suspect, to virtually any light beer
If the number of calories in your beer is a significant factor in your life, you are drinking too much of it :-p
5:11 AM
@RyanM But it's still better than the one you don't have, right?
...debatable. I have consumed beer for social reasons that I would rather not have :-p
I never drink light beer... Or almost any of the popular, mass-produced garbage. When I drink beer, it's for the flavor and experience.
Very much the same.
I am relatively sure I would rather have no beer than Bud Lite.
I remember being subjected to a pitcher of Blue Light by a project sponsor in college...
I would rather have had water, frankly
5:13 AM
Blue Light? Is that a thing?
Or is that what Android autocorrect calls "Bud Lite"?
Wow. "YOU MUST BE 21 YEARS OR OLDER TO GET UP AND GET OUT WITH US."
That's what McDonald's uses to prevent people from injecting insulin in their bathrooms
Canada, eh?
Is that a Canadian thing?
5:14 AM
Is it made from maple syrup?
Even the label is literally a Canadian clone of Bud Lite.
Wait, are you telling me that people inject other stuff into their veins, too?
@IanCampbell That would be delish, actually.
@IanCampbell That would have been significantly better, I think...
Anyways... could we please have a food room so that those of us who don't want to follow that conversation could still monitor for cv requests easily?
5:15 AM
I actually brew some (and grow my own hops), I may try adding some maple syrup.
Sorry
to the Ministry?
@JohnDvorak Are you growing tired of our constant food talk? Would you appeachiate if it wasn't so much in the lime light? It just tends to crop up from time to time. In queso you didn't know, we only mean them ingest.
I'd be so grapeful if you'd forgive us.
TIL how to pronounce queso
Is it in any way similar to cashew?
5:19 AM
See? You are learning things!
No, it's the Spanish word for cheese.
I'm off to bed. See you tomorrow Ryan
In Texas, we do this delicious thing where we melt it down, add other things like sausage, onion, and chilis, and use it on chips. This is called "chili con queso".
See? There is so much to learn, even about food!
I, too, like stuff baked in cheese. I just don't call it anything Spanish ;)
5:23 AM
More topical chat: While I *could*, I am reluctant to add a thirteenth answer to a post that already has 12 answers, many fairly long. I just can't see anyone finding the relevant advice, especially given that there's not a straightforward way to dupe to a specific answer. Hell, I'm not sure *I'd* even check 13 answers.
I'm not sure that there is a compelling reason to mix framework/platform-specific bits into a question that currently contains none of that - it would almost be non-responsive to the question.
Poor @RyanM just learned that chat formatting doesn't work in multi-line messages.
@CodyGray I actually knew that, I just forgot I'd used any.
Chat client can't read markdown, but we can ;)
It's also just a different question. One asks about the general concept, the other assumes you know the general concept from reading the first question and asks how to read the error message.
The problem is that the question doesn't look at all unique or specific to Android. It literally just talks about a Java language NullPointerException.
Like 2.5 million other questions we get each day, give or take 100.
5:29 AM
@JohnDvorak a blessing it doesn't use RTF then ...
You can't render RTF in your head? You need to step up your game.
I've looked at RTF. Is it like LaTeX but worse?
It really got worse when it started using XML markup.
waffle
I wonder when the last time I answered a question was ....
5:32 AM
Accidentally verged into complaining about a user in here, thought better of it.
@CodyGray May 24
Feel free to complain about me
that was just an accidentally sent message.
It is received
6:03 AM
@CodyGray Possibly/probably.
6:25 AM
@CodyGray since you saw that...I assume such smartassery, even if it could perhaps answer the question given a sufficiently close look at the source, is still abuse, because it's not really usable in its given form?
@RyanM Uh?
Oh
Hmm
No, it's mostly abuse because expecting a moderator with tired, strained eyes to appreciate your "cleverness" when posting an empty answer is just mean to me. :-(
Still, the system doesn't let you post "empty" answers (or those < 30 characters) for a reason.
Working around those automated blocks is abuse by any definition.
(context) for everyone else - a post asked for "an invisible character that is not regarded as whitespace", and someone posted an answer consisting of nothing but ~30 such characters.
Yeah, reasonable.
I just stumbled on a tag john-the-ripper. Am I widely off if I say that none of those questions are on-topic?
This is also one of these cases:
@NobodyNada That is a very good example. But I'll just note that it doesn't even have to be that stark of a contrast. As a moderator, I'd certainly give Jon Skeet the benefit of the doubt if he posted gibberish, but I'd give the same benefit of the doubt to a 100-rep user who had posted a couple of good questions/answers in the past. It's just brand-new users who we tend to assume are probably spammers. And, frankly, even if we guess wrong, it's better for them if we destroy the account and let them start fresh with a clean slate. — Cody Gray ♦ yesterday
@rene Seems correct. Maybe an exception or two that need a retag. Looking...
OK, the ones left in the tag are arguably on-topic
At least enough so that I'm uncomfortable mod-nuking them.
But none of the questions need that tag.
stackoverflow.com/questions/59583529/… looks like general computing
maybe infosec? there are always lots of possibilities...
stackoverflow.com/questions/52885629/… is probably a dupe but I don't know python
6:40 AM
@RyanM Writing a Python script is general computing? Nah.
@CodyGray the solution was programming. The question is not a programming problem any more than my need to rename a bunch of files is.
@RyanM Me neither, but I found one anyway (I think): stackoverflow.com/questions/699325/…
@CodyGray looks like it, yeah
I particularly liked this answer. Reminds me of "don't copy that floppy!"
stackoverflow.com/questions/30180945/… is an interesting one, and I see a lot of questions like this in review...I usually skip them because I have no clue how to handle them, and to whatever extent they're off-topic, it's far from the most off-topic stuff I see. Is building a piece of software on-topic for Stack Overflow?
For me, it's usually some question about building Android or some custom ROM or something like that
6:47 AM
@RyanM Yeah, I think so. Compilation issues are a practical programming problem.
Sometimes, but not always, with the intent of modifying the code, but I'm not crazy about close rules that turn on the author's intent.
@CodyGray Does that hold true even if the issue is "I want to build this program so I can (install|run) it"?
@JeanneDark Should have also flagged that link-only answer as NAA. Too late now. ;-)
@RyanM Why not? Again, like you said, intent doesn't matter. What matters is whether the question is framed as a practical programming problem.
@CodyGray The moment I tried to it got deleted
(I think I lean toward "yes, that's still focused enough on a programming-related problem" as well.)
Having an issue compiling some piece of software definitely seems like a problem that a programmer would encounter. Now, naturally, the answers are going to assume that you know what a Makefile is, etc. If you don't, that doesn't necessarily make it off-topic, but it does make SO a bad place to ask for help.
6:50 AM
Glad to settle that. I shall probably send some more Leave Open reviews.
I mean... a lot of those probably "Requires Editing"
Well, since I don't review Triage...also not a huge fan of minefields.
Yes, but plenty of things still "Requires Editing" in the other review queues.
Oh, for sure. Sometimes I even edit them.
Right. You have no choice, because in other review queues, there's no "Delegate This Task to Other Hapless Reviewers" button.
7:24 AM
@CodyGray Thank you for handling it :)
I am being haunted by a cv-pls user script update message, which leads to GitHub with Status 500
Looks like GitHub is down
Is there any way to turn off the auto update? :/

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