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06:00 - 17:0017:00 - 23:00

17:00
I think 0 is false is an answer.
back
wb
afk for a minute
^ wanna close as canonical dupe?
@Pham edited to clean up a bit
(the question)
17:05
back
welcome back
In which timezone are minutes 300 seconds? ;)
@rene Narnia.
wormholes?
17:07
@rene well, time moves slower when youre in a dream within a dream...
I'll try that next time when I dream
love that movie, though (inception)
brb rebooting
woo...
wonders if @gunr2171 is now looking at a BSOD
17:13
Not the greatest of timing if so :p
Under stress everything breaks eventually
silly putty will shatter with enough stress
Auto-editor update! 1.5.2.36 is stable.
looks like tampermonkey already updated to it. Yeah.
and back
17:18
welcome back
Anyone else using new nav and lost all custom tabs?
Odd choice of words: "Room meeting - Regulars please attend". If you come here often, are you sure that "regular" (conforming to what is usual or normal) is an appropriate word to describe yourself?
smokey?
who did break the - silence option?
10:1 says it's a permission problem
@rene Maybe Smokey is in Ohio today...
17:22
@Mogsdad Call a meeting for the correct wording of the meeting
@rene Will first organize a Tiger Team to nominate members for the committee to propose the agenda for it.
Sounds as a plan
Umm... a notification 7 minutes before hand seems a bit of a weird time to do it... 10/15 mins would make more sense - but 7? :p
7 is a magic number in some places
@rene No, no, no. To be a plan, a proposal must first obtain assent from a simple majority, in the case of a non-binding meeting name, and a two-thirds majority in the case of meetings occurring during any nation's National Holidays.
17:26
:)
@Closey stop bot
@gunr2171 I'm shutting down...
Goodbye!
wonders how many days of the year are some sort of national holiday
@NathanOliver A: all.
user4639281
Hello everybody.
JAL
JAL
17:29
Hey, I'm here too
Plop! Just came with some food
JAL
JAL
/me throws popcorn at Kyll
Thank you all for attending. This is the first all-member meeting for SOCVR, and it's been a long time coming. I will create a bookmark of this event for anyone who could not make this or would like to read back over the content.
I (and maybe the other Room Owners) have some things we would like to get out of the way first. If we can hold messages until that's done we can get to the fun part faster.
Please do not star messages until we open discussion to everyone. I'd also like to remind everyone not to go into specifics regarding past behavior or events. There is no point in calling people out or shaming them.
For this meeting I will be treating Jon as a normal user, unless we do something where his moderator status requires him to intervene. I mean no disrespect to him, and I thank him for his continued guidance.
I have prepared some words, and I have taken the role of going first.
Let's start with this: what is the number one rule here in regards to close voting?
Vote on your own merits, don't become a mob.
What happened yesterday was exactly that. And to boot, we had many messages joking that we weren't.
Yesterday's event was filled by negativity, and it is this negativity that is casting a very bad light on our room. Yes, a user had a problem and actually went to the source to get some understanding. Our welcome was less than tolerable.
Factually, the member's actions were correct. Everyone did a good job of defending their close reasons and debunking speculation. But what did that accomplish?
What we did was shove the rulebook down the user's throat. With only a small number of these events, we are going to harbor some serious unpopularity.
How we say something, especially in an environment where it is difficult to correctly convey emotions, is critical.
We should be thrilled that a user hopped in chat. Now you have a chance to guide them, not criticize them to the ground. Don't show them the error of their ways, show them how to get back on the path.
This won't be an easy thing; we know first hand how much unsalvageable content is on the site. Just remember that everyone who posts stuff here is human.
Not everyone is Jon Skeet, but you should treat them like they were.
Insulating and joking about another user in a derogatory manner, no matter the reputation that user has, is not allowed, and ROs will be enforcing this more strictly.
ROs have been lax lately. I for one have seen questionable behavior that I have blown off. I will be trying my hardest to reverse that habit.
The problem with close requests:

There is a reason we include in the room rules "no extended discussions on close requests".
By submitting close requests we broadcast ourselves as a location where "if your post gets linked there, it's done". Having multiple people further comment, or even confirm the success of the request, makes it worst. We are a public chat room. We are linking ourselves out on meta, and we are the only chat room (probably on the entire SE network) that deals with closure to our scale. The common user is going to take one look at our transcripts and notice that we absolutely act like a mob.
One person sets the ball, four others spike it down, and with hateful comments throughout.
In the last update to the room information, we included "don't make close requests a habit". Currently we have a " graveyard" room set up and ROs should move completed close requests there so they don't fill up the transcript. That's tackling the problem in reverse.
I know it sucks when you see a bad post, but don't let your first thought be "everyone in the room should see this so it can be taken off the map". There are so many other things you can do yourself before you need to bring it before the group. It's not the end of the world if a post does not get closed. Prioritise your requests.
Close requests will always be a necessary evil, all we're asking for is a little moderation.
Never cv-pls in anger. You need to have a level head at all times, especially when asking for the closure of a post. If you write "cv-pls because this is bad" you will be kicked. Not providing a logical reason for closure is unacceptable. If you can't defend your platform, don't post it.
Room Owners are going to start putting our foot down more. Please expect that, but don't wait for it. Help us help you help us all.
I will now turn the floor over to the other ROs if they have anything they would like to say.
I'm a strong believer in this line in our room guidance In absence of all Room Owners, the members lead-by-example.
Try to be an example for me and others
back to you @gunr2171
17:39
Thanks. Durron is unfortunately not here. Let's move on to open discussion. Let's have healthy, proactive discourse.
(and sorry for making you read so much)
Can I kick-off by asking what the other members think about those room guidance/rules/expectations?
Assuming the chat servers are still alive ...
user4639281
I'd say that it is a collection of reasonable expectations based on the objective of the room.
user4639281
While I don't personally think that anything we said or did was without warrant or "hateful", but I can see how an outsider might think that.
@TinyGiant that's the thing - an inside joke/humour is that - unless you're aware/part of it - perception is key
JAL
JAL
I think you guys are absolutely right. When someone comes in here asking why their question was closed, we all want to defend ourselves and the room. We're all friendly here, we don't like it when others look at us like the evil cloud over every post. I know that I can improve on not engaging with users asking questions about their post when another user started the closing. Multiple people talking to the new user can definitely scare people off.
user4639281
17:42
I understand the need for the members here to (appear to) be shining members of the community at all times if we want the objective of the room to succeed.
JAL
JAL
If someone comes in the room to inquire as to why their post was closed, the room user who asked to close that post should be the only one to engage, unless other users are questioned as well.
@gunr2171 Earlier you corrected me that a reason of "gimme teh code" needed to be a little more concrete. In reality, perhaps it should have been even called antagonistic. A reason of "custom" was much more appropriate, and objective, and I should have used it in the first place. So thanks for calling me on that, and don't be afraid to be even less polite in the future. I think all of the RO's do a great job.
I would like to apologize for any offensive behavior that I may have had a part in yesterday. I agree with @JAL that the person making the CV request should be the point of contact on any discussion of that CV request
ive noticed that a lot of questions asking for examples are getting cv requests under the "tool req" reason. when the question from yesterday was reposted as a self-answered question, the OP proved that their question wasn't too broad at all, but it was closed again anyway.
@cimmanon Discussed on Meta, but not with significant voting either way.
17:46
@LynnCrumbling This is something I would have let slip by in the past. I'm trying to correct that because of this public image we need to uphold
As @gunr2171 mentioned earlier, it seems appropriate to stop reporting a closure with "boom" or even "success", but a simple, unemotional "closed" would be enough.
@Mogsdad yeah, but in this particular case it seemed like it was being closed because it said "can i get an example of how to integrate this" when it would have been perfectly acceptable to ask "how do i integrate this"
@LynnCrumbling really, that's not needed either. A script can move the content
@JAL I added this yesterday Most content has some value, work with the OP to get their post into shape. So that is NOT to defend closure, but to send the OP on a road to re-opening
2
JAL
JAL
^ Can I star that?
17:48
(sorry, bad clipboard)
stars are allowed at this time, just don't get too crazy
user4639281
@cimmanon It was "How do I integrate these two libraries? Also what are the differences between the two libraries?"
@TinyGiant ok, well the 2nd part could have been edited out
@cimmanon Yes - but it's not clear that asking for an example is grounds for closure, even as a temporary hold-to-improve step.
@cimmanon Even the first part only was extremely borderline as it requires quite some work to achieve this, or an existing tool
@gunr2171 Makes complete sense.
17:50
@cimmanon let's not bring up specific events. Let's focus on generals and moving forward.
Well, I have a question
Which is not related to past events of any kind
.... kyll is typing ....
yes, suspense building
JAL
JAL
one-box, one-box
(sorry)
Someone comes in, feeling that we act as an unruly mob. Despite trying to convince him that, well, we are not, we fail for XY reason. Again, this is not about yesterday's bonanza : It is the hypothetical event in which only the one posting a has politely discussed, and failed to solve the situation. What do we do?
17:54
Advice the user to edit and have the OP vote for re-open
That's optimistic.
Yes, I always am
Is that a homework question ?
I have a question as well: Is it appropriate to ask for a second round of closing, if you notice (after many hours later) that a question hasn't been closed? (regardless of whether you're the one who ORIGINALLY requested the cv.)
17:55
sorry @Codester, we are in the middle of a meeting
@Kyll Make the conversation more about how to edit the content to work rather than explain why it was closed.
Fine I was just trying to help
@gunr2171 hey
where's the meeting happening?
here
user4639281
Right here, right now.
@rene @gunr2171 Okay, I get it, I'll try to help. My question wasn't about that though: I have tried and failed. What do I do?
17:56
@Codester we'll have a look in 30 minutes
@Kyll sometimes that won't work. At this point, just do what you do in comments. Disengage and redirect to meta.
@LynnCrumbling No, one request only. Otherwise it moves into the "close or I'll kill you" territory.
@rene Ok As you wish :)
Why should we have to do that (explain how to get the question on track) when the close text usually does a pretty good job?
(Except the duplicate close text, that one is terrible.)
user4639281
@SotiriosDelimanolis Because we aren't a lynch close mob.
17:58
@LynnCrumbling Agree with Mogsdad. We should not be allowing multiple requests per post.
@Mogsdad i dont know that i agree with that. sometimes when i post a cv request, the room is quite dead. how many of you scroll back through the history? how far back do you scroll?
If it's by accident that's a different thing
@TinyGiant I don't see it that way. I voted to close. I had my reasons. I brought it to your attention. You acted for your own reasons. It ends there.
I'm not forcing you to close vote.
@Kyll in the end not every customer will leave this room happy. But if we have shown that are options to improve the question, adviced on the re-open vote and still not enough other community members (not from this room) vote to reopen then the question is closed correctly.
user4639281
@SotiriosDelimanolis The basic thing is that if you post a cv-pls request, you should be ready to back it up with an argument.
17:59
@SotiriosDelimanolis I wish it was that easy. Still, don't make the conversation about explaining why the close reason applies. Make it about "if you add X and remove Y, it will be a lot better"
So be specific about each question?
user4639281
You don't have to vote to reopen, but you can let the user know why you voted to close.
That's what the close vote text already does.
user4639281
> If your question wasn't X, Y and Z, I wouldn't have voted to close.
Otherwise a custom close reason.
18:01
@cimmanon The dead-room transcript is easier to get through than when lively. The trash compactor removes requests that are no longer needed, and "find my last" button takes me to the last comment I put in the room so I can see what I've missed. I don't always agree or have the requisite knowledge for close votes, but I do look at them.
Q: In what circumstances should we direct users to this room?
I feel like commenting that way I wouldn't have voted to close if xyz will frustrate some users more.
Why are you telling me how to write my questions?
user4639281
That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to guide the user to make their post completely on-topic and vote to reopen, but you should at least tell them the reasoning you used to determine the correct close reason.
@cimmanon How about a repost if it only had 1 vote and make clear that is a repost?
user4639281
That's how I'm interpreting it anyway. Feel free to correct me anyone.
18:03
Not have to. @TinyGiant
@rene sounds fair
I feel no necessity for most most posts I vote to close.
@Kyll if it looks like the user genuinely has a question about the closure of a post, and it looking to improve.
@Kyll If all they are doing is raging, there is not much more we can do to calm them down. But if there is a shread of "caring", we can help that user
It might be better to trigger a move comments to chatroom though
@gunr2171 That was the obvious follow-up, thanks for your answer
18:07
@TinyGiant Turn it around, make it a positive message: "If you can improve X Y and Z, your question will much more answerable."
user4639281
@SotiriosDelimanolis That doesn't mean the same thing for posts that you don't request CVs for. But if you post a cv request, it is basically saying that the question is off-topic above and beyond what you normally see, and should be dealt with quickly. If you do that, you should be ready to back that up with reasoning on why you thought it was so important to close quickly. This is excepting low traffic tags and old questions with new activity of course.
user4639281
@gunr2171 That's what I meant.
Above and beyond can't just mean not enough eyes?
@SotiriosDelimanolis requests are ok for posts where there is not enough traffic to close it in time
like smaller tags
user4639281
Either too low of traffic to not be seen, or too high of traffic to have enough eyes on it.
18:13
^ yes
user4639281
afk
Does anyone have another question, or something we have not covered/answered yet?
So if I have a CV request should I state on the the question why I feel it should be closed or I only need to do that if the OP says something?
I would say that the close reason should be enough
@NathanOliver the "reasons" for cv requests can stay as they are; unclear/too broad/ etc.
what do you mean by your second part?
18:17
@NathanOliver Mh, I would disagree with the statements above
Not having notifications for posts you have downvoted or close-voted (because of some higher reasons) means you have to keep track of your if OP wants clarification. You can either keep them open in tabs or revisit them, or you can leave a comment explaining why you have close-voted. Using a custom close reason can also help.
I am just trying to figure out this stared post. When should I interact with the OP when closing a question. Does this only apply when the OP pings me and or comes into the chat room?
@NathanOliver Unless you want to track your cv-pls as @kyll indicated I would only leave a comment if that will actual help in preventing it being closed or in getting it re-opened. Adding noise like I cv-ed because unclear is not helpful for you nor for the OP
@NathanOliver I generally leave an auto-comment on a post when I close vote. This gives some advice to the OP and allows them to respond. You only need to get into the nitty-gritty of everything once they really start asking questions or get into chat
@rene According to what has been said above about helping OPs, then you should always keep track of your
Okay I get it.
18:25
@Kyll sure, but I'm not dictating how that should be done
I keep normally an eye on those cv-pls posts to see what is happening
@Kyll I don't see the relationship with tracking requests and helping an OP. If a user comes into the room asking about closure, regardless of who did the closing or if a request triggered it, they should get equal amount of help.
@gunr2171 Similar to the common "why did you down-vote me" questions.
"You don't know who downvoted, could be anyone, but here's what I see... hope that helps."
@gunr2171 Well, if I something, I should check for OP comments for clarification and/or help?
@Kyll True. In a perfect world, converse with the OP before asking for closure. That gives the best chance to fix the content before we need to take action.
Now, we only have 3 room owners. Durron is out right now but we do need more help.
We would like to add one more room owner to the list
After much debate, we would like to invite @NathanOliver to join the RO's, should he accept.
18:32
@user3100115 sorry, we are in the middle of a room meeting. Can we take a look at in a few minutes?
@gunr2171 Ok
... @NathanOliver is typing ...
I would love to join as an RO
was editing an answer
18:34
Great. We hope that you help us uphold the values of this room.
I will do my best. Thank you guys.
And with that, this room meeting is done. Thank you all for your time.
You're welcome
@Codester Your comment is borderline rude, please explain to OP what he did wrong and how he can make it better.
^ I've been refraining from typing this for the past half hour

November 2015 Room Meeting

1 hour ago, 1 hour 4 minutes total – 153 messages, 15 users, 4 stars

Bookmarked just now by gunr2171

bot is starting up...
18:38
Hey everyone! (SO Close Vote Chatbot started, linux!)
I've got to get some work done, I'll be in and out of chat for a few hours
@Closey status
SOCVR ChatBot version 1.0.0.0, running for 33 seconds.
@gunr2171 What is this Work you speak of? ;)
@gunr2171 I'm off to the theatre in 10 minutes or so
@Closey start event
18:39
Refreshing the tag listing. Please wait...
8,568 need review
1,964 reviews today
2,896,941 reviews all-time
The tags to work on are: , , .
So, I know the meeting is over already, so I apologise for being late. I've read everything since the meeting started, but kept quiet until now. Here's my two cents: I agree with practically everything from gunr's wall of text. I didn't take part in yesterday's mob, but there were previous situations where I have been pretty rough on users, mostly when I felt like they were being rude or pretentious. I apologise for that.
If I may, I'd like to highlight one thing that has been said in the past hour: Don't justify the closing of a post. Tell the OP how to get it open instead. Treat users like bombs, and try to not make them explode. Yes, that sounds like a very thankless job, but we live in a cruel world and that's what rainy days look like. But don't forget that there are sunny days too.
2
I couldn't have said it better
@Siguza completely agree
that almost went boom...
I'll do my reviews in a few hours...
@Closey starting
18:43
@Kyll By the power of the Vote! Review!
passed java audit
@Kyll added a modification of an auto comment
@Closey starting
@NathanOliver Don't get lost in the queue!
passed scala audit
JAL
JAL
18:50
Congrats @NathanOliver!
JAL
JAL
floating in and out as well, but great meeting
@Closey starting
@Mogsdad Watch out for audits!
No kidding.
18:50
passed c audit
passed php audit
it's going to take a bit to get used to that new avatar
Pham looks a little demonic now
Sam
Sam
@NathanOliver He should do, the amount of coffee he drinks...
@gunr2171 In light of today's meeting, are bots for detecting LQ posts (not spam/abusive) still encouraged?
19:01
passed haskell audit
@Sam I have no issues with this so far
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 Ok.
Is there any kind of super duper smart userscript to show updates to posts I have downvoted/close-voted in my inbox?
@Kyll That would have to be a bot, more or less...
@Siguza Well, it would fill a massive hole in my current moderation capacities
Sam
Sam
19:05
Adds to to-do list...
passed python audit
Ugh. So the mass voting reversal script reversed my votes on two/ten quintuple-self-answers -.-
@Siguza And here you thought one of your questions had an upvote =p
> Thank you for reviewing 40 close votes today; come back in 4 hours to continue reviewing.
@NathanOliver Thanks for reviewing! To see more information use the command last session stats.
19:08
@Kyll I didn't even get a notification for it, I just looked at my rep history.
@Closey last session stats
@NathanOliver Your last completed review session ended 2 minutes and 5 seconds ago and lasted 22 minutes and 12 seconds. You reviewed 40 items, averaging a review every 33 seconds.
@cimmanon not sure if good timing, or bad timing
user4639281
@Siguza Yeah, I noticed that too. It should be able to tell if the answers were all to the same question.
19:18
Anyone sees a typo in this PHP question?
user4639281
Anyways, I'll be doing my reviews later on. Turns out I'm moving across the country today.
passed sql audit
Thank you for reviewing 40 close votes today; come back in 4 hours to continue reviewing.
@Kyll Thanks for reviewing! To see more information use the command last session stats.
@Closey last session stats
@Kyll i think it is missing a closing curly brace
19:21
@Kyll Your last completed review session ended 21 seconds ago and lasted 37 minutes and 48 seconds. You reviewed 40 items, averaging a review every 56 seconds.
the try block opens one, the if statement opens another. there is a while loop inside that opens and closes, and i only see 1 closing curly brace after that
@cimmanon Oh yes
Commented and voted
Thanks =D
19:34
There are no items for you to review, matching the filter "[google-docs] [google-spreadsheet] [google-apps-script]"
Sam
Sam
@Pham fp
> passed java audit
@Pham true, but we can't do anything about it
20:12
> passed php audit
20:25
> Thank you for reviewing 40 close votes today; come back in 3 hours to continue reviewing.
@Mogsdad Thanks for reviewing! To see more information use the command last session stats.
@Closey last session stats
@Mogsdad Your last completed review session ended 10 seconds ago and lasted 1 hour, 34 minutes and 21 seconds. You reviewed 40 items, averaging a review every 2 minutes and 21 seconds.
Had a Timmy's break in the middle!
How do you feel about new tag wiki excerpts with no usage guidance?
JAL
JAL
21:02
@Closey starting
@Closey alive?
guess not
> seen 17m ago
@gunr2171 It looks like closey died.
let me check
@NathanOliver I bored him to death.
> [Mogsdad] How do you feel about new tag wiki excerpts with no usage guidance?
that was the last message
so yes, you did
21:05
@Mogsdad That will teach you to take 2+ minutes per review
Hey everyone! (SO Close Vote Chatbot started, linux!)
Its alive!!!
@Closey status
SOCVR ChatBot version 1.0.0.0, running for 23 seconds.
@NathanOliver No. It was a learning opportunity. But don't assume it will actually teach me anything! "Live & don't learn! That's us!"
21:07
and we good
@Mogsdad rolls eyes
BTW, "us" == "Calvin & Hobbes", not the people in this room. (...speaking clearly into the vase that may contain a listening device.)
@Closey starting
@rene Happy reviewing!
21:20
@josilber - sounds like homework, no?
passed c++ audit
Well I am off for the night. Thanks again for the RO.
cya!
cya
> Thank you for reviewing 40 close votes today; come back in 2 hours to continue reviewing.
> Thank you for reviewing 40 close votes today; come back in 2 hours to continue reviewing.
Sam
Sam
@rene Last message it picked up.
21:30
Oh, tnx Closey, for paying attention. I feel much better now...
@Sam I know I have a bad influence but at least let the bot pretend I'm Ok-ish...
Sam
Sam
Lol.
21:45
bah meta question closed, answer useless
Sam
Sam
Never mind.
Hey everyone! (SO Close Vote Chatbot started, linux!)
@Sam never mind? I need the rep!
Already run out of votes today :( :)
I have still some left
Sam
Sam
21:47
@rene I was talking about closey.
@Sam oh ... :(
I'm just out of votes :(
I'm out for the night ...
I'm out as well, cya!
Sam
Sam
22:23
.
Sam
Sam
Just checking if the bot's still working.
Ok.
06:00 - 17:0017:00 - 23:00

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