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9:00 PM
@IanCampbell I've looked for duplicates and found one of my own answers. (I used to not bother, and have now realized that I self-duplicated a "few" answers.)
 
Well, at least I'm not totally alone.
 
Hehe ... as they say, "You need to answer many dupes before you can hammer dupes!"
But that may not be a bad thing. Once I "earned" my hammer(s), I had become aware of the common dupes. And I stopped answering them. Others don't seem to have learned that lesson. ;(
The whole issue of quick-fire answers to what are quite obvious dupes (if only users would even look) is, as I'm sure you're aware, quite a 'toxic' issue on Meta.
 
I've stopped answering dupes quite some time before getting the hammer. At times I would even flag or VtC as duplicate, and the "Does this answer your question" comment would stay there like a rock in space while the Q went on to get 5 answers... :/
 
A rock in space? Is it pyroxene? plagioclase? veldspar? I need to know these things...
 
9:11 PM
Tyler, is it possible that I've found a fellow internet space ship captain?
 
I don't know what typical asteroids are made of. Silicates?
 
@blackgreen But, until staff start implementing a system to remove rewards for such, there's nothing to be done. We can't expect mods to spend their time arbitrating these dupe/close/reopen wars. Remove all "accept" rewards for answers posted to Qs closed as dupes, is what I would do ... but I'm not a shareholder.
... or on all closed Qs. And lock the votes.
 
The problem is not with regular users answering dupes. The problem is with gold badgers answering dupes
or... a sizeable part of the problem
 
The problem is with those few "big boys" who just don't care.
 
also true
 
9:14 PM
The problem is with users asking duplicates
but because that's not really solvable with existing tools, we've given up and decided to go after the answerers
 
Adding the +15 for accepts to the daily rep cap would go some way.
 
what about the 6 upvotes
 
There are some people on this site that answer questions only to exceed the daily repcap.
 
Once closed, no more voting on answers?
@IanCampbell Lots. Far too many. They play the game and, in so doing, spoil the site.
 
IIRC mickmackusa proposed something similar to "undo rep after dupe-closure", however as I said what happens when the gold badger who answered goes on to reopen?
@AdrianMole interesting
 
9:16 PM
... but we aren't allowed to target them (and nor should we be allowed). That's down to staff.
 
They're just goign with the flow
 
@blackgreen Easy. Remove the hammer for those who have answered.
 
there's an endless supply of devs wanting tailored answers to such questions. They get enjoyment out of providing said answers, everyone wins... except over time it makes finding relevant solutions more difficult.
 
eh, easy until one of those cases where the gold badger honestly believes the question wasn't a dupe, after all it's their prerogative to reopen
 
@KevinB Of course. And new users follow suit. We need to target the established, high-rep users who do it, to set an example for newcomers.
 
9:19 PM
eh, sure
 
@blackgreen Then they can cast an ordinary reopen vote.
 
i didn't look to high rep users when i did that back in the day
The system actively encourages it through it's reputation rewards
 
@AdrianMole we're starting to talk business here
 
there's 0 pentalty to answering questions in bulk
 
I am particularly adamant in VtC and then VtD sub-par dupes and especially those answered by high-rep and/or gold badgers, but this doesn't discourage them, apparently
 
9:20 PM
@KevinB But there should be, IMHO.
 
on average you will come out ahead as long as most of your answers aren't gibberish
 
These people don't expect lots of upvotes. One (from the OP) and the +15 for accept is cool, if you post 30+ such answers per day.
 
my point is I don't think high rep users "being a bad example" is necessarily all that big of a problem
 
But it's a start.
 
i'm only a sample size of one, ofc.
 
9:22 PM
I always favour quality over quantity. :)
 
but the gamification is designed to make you want more. Right out of the gate you can't properly interact with questions that aren't your own
or even upvote what you see useful
 
@IanCampbell I am a retired care bear miner :-)
 
@KevinB Exactly! Staff have no reason to prevent such behaviour. It makes them think it makes the site better.
 
@TylerH Well, then you probably wouldn't want to hear that I'm a ... bit more invested.
 
nowhere in that beginning process does it really lay down the real goals behind the site
 
9:24 PM
@IanCampbell As long as you don't say you are a member of CODE. then we will be OK
 
Unicorn points matter. So much so, in fact, that people are now quoting their SO rep. on their CVs.
 
I am not. Thankfully. I have gotten drunk with their devs (and the CEO) at Eve Vegas though.
 
weren't they doing that all along? (rep on CV)
 
@blackgreen IRL, they are made of various things, including silicates... but also things like ice and elemental minerals like gold, etc.
@IanCampbell That's cool (though CODE is not made up of employees, just players); I would probably enjoy their cons.
 
> ~100k reputation on Stackoverflow with gold badges in jQuery and Java Script
 
9:25 PM
But for me as someone who was never more than a casual player, they did not do enough to make the game inviting/enjoyable to keep playing
 
Asteroid are seldom silicates. Well, far less often than terrestrial materials (which mostly are).
 
I don't think removing rep from closed questions is a reasonable plan. Just think about how many complaints there would be on Meta? "Bob closed the question I answered as a duplicate, even though the duplicate asks for how many 5s are between 0 and 100, when this question asks about 7s!"
 
Complex ions don't form in space so much. So, you get oxides and halides, and raw metals, etc.
 
@blackgreen why would they be, though? :) they just shrug this off via the sheer amount of contributions...
 
removing rep from closures will make people not want to close things "because it hurts other people"
 
9:28 PM
@TylerH That's fair, I mostly play because I like the people I've been hanging out with for the last decade.
 
@IanCampbell Yup, I totally get that :-) Your guildmates are your family
 
Yes, and my wife can recognize them all by the sound of their voice even though she's never played once.
 
SO is still a brilliant resource, even despite those who abuse the system to gain rep. We need a subtle system that is, nonetheless, robust - even brutal - to those who are obviously more interested in their own reputation than that of the site as a whole. Tricky.
 
@KevinB yeah, rep removal on closure will likely only solidify the perception that it is a punishment, which we have been fighting an uphill battle against for ages
 
Prevention is better than cure!
 
9:30 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine based on my empirical observations, I now think that strategy ends up having more effect on low-rep users; probably they become wary of losing rep by answering bad dupes that are eventually deleted
but after a while I stopped caring about these subtleties and just placidly go on with the curation I think is beneficial to the site
until some consensus forms around system-wide countermeasures
 
more like "if" it ever forms :)
apparently we have a lot of those who think that "everything is fine" as is
 
I don't think there will ever be effective countermeasures against asking dupes. The incentives are just not properly aligned to make it happen. The company's incentives are against them, the high rep users's incentives are against them, and most definitely the question author's don't want the countermeasures.
 
IDK, I need to see how the staging ground plays out. I have expectations that it can help reduce dupes
 
For all the hundreds of Meta posts/rants/complaints/suggestion about dupes that have been posted over the years, I can't recall any (senior) staff ever getting involved.
 
The staging ground could be the start of a new question handling process in general, but if it doesn't survive the first test...
 
9:34 PM
Are questions resolved in staging ground as a dup really that much different than a question asked on the main site and closed as a dup? It still takes a highly motivated expert to do it.
 
in a sense
 
@blackgreen Ideally, yes it would. But the whole S/G idea has a number of serious issues that will, no doubt, manifest themselves when (if) it goes live.
 
There's no answering in the staging ground
so it being resolved in SG means it gets resolved without an answer
aka making it a redirect rather than a stop with a link
 
Good point.
 
@IanCampbell well, if it means that the question never reaches the main site, I can try to live with the existence of SG
 
9:35 PM
i'm curious though
what happens in SG when the conclusion is it's a duplicate, but the op disagrees? yea yea they submit an edit etc, but if it was closed from the SG, noone's viewing it at that point,
 
I'd actually be OK if it was published on the main site to be found by search engines as a signpost.
 
I think those who will engage in S/G are those who don't care so much about rep. If that helps prevent Figwit answers on dupes, then it can only be a good thing.
 
my hope is these high rep heavy answerers will get involved with it
 
Please forgive me if I don't hold my breath. I prefer oxygen.
 
Properly presented, I think it can/will.
 
9:38 PM
it's a place where they can get the first shot at helping a new user
if that's truely why they're here, it should be a home run
 
All of us know our "tag regulars", and we know who are those who care about the site and those who care more about their point scores.
 
@IanCampbell FYI re: last SD report: metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/domains/64810
 
If done correctly, those who abuse their S/G privileges will lose them.
 
@AdrianMole one of those issues is if/how questions by high-rep askers end up in the SG. It doesn't take a new user to ask dupes. It just takes one who isn't willing to put in the effort
 
... so they won't get to see the posts before they have a chance to answer.
 
9:40 PM
y'know all those Socratic badges...
 
@RyanM Yeah, I saw that. I was too afraid to resolve the link at work.
 
@blackgreen Meh. Hard to deal with such folks through user-level curation.
 
What's the guidance on dealing with posts that are probably spam or R/A, but you're too chicken to check? No votes?
 
hmmm. Custom flag with an explanation of why, perhaps?
 
But I would bet good money that including the +15 for accepts in the daily cap would reduce the number of answers to dupes and other LQ questions.
 
9:43 PM
including the +15 in the rep cap would disincentivize some users from providing more answers, but my suspicion is that will affect a very small minority of users
to the point of having no real downside in the grand scheme of things. but it is somewhat of a negative look
 
@AdrianMole unless SE goes forward with the ridiculous +10/+15 rep "incentive"...
 
like, any reduction in answers being posted can be seen as a bad thing
 
But it would also serve to allow newer users (and those who take more time to answer good questions) to get their posts in.
 
because that argument of course assumes that most of the answers after rep cap are to duplicates/questions that should be closed
 
although if it acts like a honeypot preventing them from flooding the site, I guess it's a win
 
9:46 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I have some half-baked thoughts like "1 rep per net upvote received for the question, up to 10" - as a reward for getting good content onto the site, you are rewarded in proportion to how good it is. Also mitigates possible abuse because the amount of abuse you have to do at 1 rep/upvote is...a lot.
 
Well, if they do go through with the rep, at least Dharman will have a new hobby to enjoy.
 
hate posts on meta?
 
@RyanM yeah, I'd gulp, but could live with something like that. Not with what they are currently proposing (and I am 95% sure they are going to roll with it)
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine hmmm, maybe I should fully bake and then post that idea, then...
 
I honestly don't know why I post answers on those threads.
 
9:48 PM
Yaakov and I had a nice discussion on one of them, at least.
 
If you didn't, you wouldn't be able to say "I told you so"
What happened with all that rep from documentation?
did people just get to keep it?
 
I believe so, yes.
 
Yeah, "I told you so" is good, but it's not as much fun poking fun at the team when they are so nice to you.
I could deal with 1 rep per score up to 10, but then, that's not nearly enough incentive to take people away from FGITW-ing dups on the main site.
 
i mean
if it is launched as originally designed, FGITW can't happen until it's approved, so,
 
Beats the existing review queues, though.
 
9:52 PM
approved or aged out*
 
There's nowhere near enough bandwidth to direct every new user to SG, thus it will have to become opt-in.
 
in a sense i kinda wonder if it'd... be an improvement to rip out the "queue" aspect of this and make the features SG is bringing forward just features of the question page
click "there's a problem with this post", select the problem, and it's put into an improvement process or queue at that point
 
What do you think is the percentage of new questions that are high quality? 5%?
 
high quality?
1-2%
good enough quality to attract a high quality answer? far more
 
OK, fine, not low quality?
 
9:57 PM
most questions need some additional input from the OP
 
Totally agree
 
whether it be an additional piece of code, a little more explanation, etc
SME's can sometimes skip that because they've seen the same problem thousands of times
 
@RyanM don't overcook it, though!
 
10:27 PM
Does anyone else think the closed post notice looks slightly different today?
Less padding, maybe?
 
@RyanM does not seem like the Stacks component for notices has been updated in a while
 
10:56 PM
@IanCampbell When I do First Questions review, I think abut 40% (or slightly more?) get a close vote from me! That's not including the many that I skip, due to me not knowing enough about the subject matter to vote, even though I suspect that they deserve a CV. It's actually very depressing.
 
@AdrianMole How do you accomplish this and CV review without running out of close votes?
 
I can't do both. There are/were times when I tried mixing between the two queues. I'm very suspicious of anyone who does 40 per day in (say) CV and Triage, for example.
 
Ahhh. Makes sense.
 
IS it acceptable to answer on a question that does not meet the guidelines and close the question afterwards? And is it worth to moderator flag that?
 
IMHO - No.
... and No, probably not worth a mod flag.
 
11:00 PM
There are folks who target posts with a particular result and make liberal use of skipping to find them. e.g., suggested edit reviewers who only reject edits (and who only approve them - though good reviewers are a small minority among those who only approve).
 
@tacoshy Downvote (the answer) and move on.
 
@tacoshy Potentially worth a mod flag if: 1) there's a pattern of them doing this frequently, or 2) they used a dupehammer to reopen, answer, then reclose
 
thank you Ryan & adrian
 
the former could be seen as them trying to prevent others from answering after they get theirs in, and the latter is pretty blatant abuse 99% of the time.
 
There have been a few times where I answered a question and then, afterwards, realized it was either a dupe, or that it was unclear (from OP's response in comments on my answer). In such cases, if I vote to close, I would delete my answer, first.
 
11:18 PM
Thats also would I would expect as common sense.
 
I find myself recently hammering dupes a long time after I've answered (in a non-abusive fashion). My younger self rushed to answer questions in 2017 without any sense of curation. When my answer is not accepted, I deleted it. If it is accepted, there isn't anything I can do. stackoverflow.com/q/44052754/2943403
 
yeah but thats a compeltely different behavior and case mickmackusa. I talk specifically about posting an answer and then vote to clsoe right afterwards
 
Yeah, I know what you are getting at. I just wanted to state for the record that I am "answering and hammering" every once in a while -- for non-abusive reasons.
 
And to clarify: my statement definitely does not include cases where the close-voter deletes their answer.
 
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