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11:08 PM
@CodyGray My understanding of this is, right now, based pretty much entirely in intuition. I will need considerable time to formulate a proper argument.
 
Intuition seems like a very harmful and dangerous thing to base the topicality of questions upon.
 
I think the zero-effort "please debug this" questions that aren't good are the ones where it's some specific logic error in their code specific to the logic they are trying to implement (as opposed to a general problem that someone else may have) and they clearly haven't used a debugger at all.
they are, by the close reasons, often on-topic, just...also often useless.
 
... see, I'm not sure that "topicality" is even the right word. I know I have already been saying things like "off-topic" where I don't actually mean that, because the close dialog UI used to say that
 
they're also often "typos" and closeable under that reason.
Though forming a set of objective criteria is very difficult.
 
we used to have "too localized" and I really think that captured something important, even if it was sometimes misused.
@RyanM it is, which is why I've refrained from trying to make a meta post about bringing TL back
 
11:11 PM
Yeah, I think it would be good to capture "too localized" in a way that wouldn't be misused. I've tried to come up with something and failed, though.
I'm not entirely convinced it's possible to do much better than the current typo reason, given the difficulty of predicting the future.
 
I think the crux of that idea is that the logical issue is idiosyncratic: it doesn't form part of a pattern that can be described, in a way that doesn't depend on the context of OP's code, and labelled in a way that is searchable.
 
yeah, agreed.
 
That said: I wish we could (more easily) change questions from being closed as not-duplicate to closed as duplicate and vice versa.
 
@RyanM Yes, I agree with that. Debugging questions in general are among the least useful questions to be found on Stack Overflow, but that doesn't make them off-topic.
 
@CodyGray Maybe it won't take that much time. I think the crux of it is that I understand library differently.
 
11:13 PM
@RyanM As long as we're basing things on intuition, my intuition says that most attempted uses of the "typo" close reason are wrong. :-)
 
questions that aren't useful have this tendency to gum up search results.
 
I don't see that as a real problem. If someone is not willing to look through a couple of results when searching for an answer, then hope is already lost.
 
more importantly: the questions we really need, especially to help beginners, are often fundamentally not askable by the people who need them answered.
 
That's also a highly solvable problem, by getting people who are not beginners to ask these questions. (And, hopefully, answer them.)
 
@CodyGray I don't think you understand. It happens to me constantly that I look through pages and pages of results and find nothing but crap, with multiple attempts at the search terms.
 
11:15 PM
@CodyGray Based on my time in the CV queue, for Android questions at least I'd go with "a non-trivial minority" personally. Probably low double digits.
 
That frustration, plus the "highly solvable problem" you highlight, are why my room exists.
 
@KarlKnechtel Yeah, I've occasionally tried to search for an actual problem I'm having and used curation/mod tools as a result of finding unrelated crap.
also applies to searching for dupes sometimes.
 
notice how the channel is dominated by me complaining about not being able to find things, or about attempts to find things turning up even-worse-than-usual stuff
 
@KarlKnechtel Yeah, I wish we'd see better reception for attempts at writing canonicals.
I tried once and it was promptly dupe-hammered to a semi-related question, with zero feedback from the closer despite a comment from me expressing why I felt it was unrelated.
(I've since received useful feedback from others on how to differentiate it, through other channels)
but it certainly didn't encourage me to spend time writing more
I've also gotten a very mixed reaction to writing a very basic Java q/a pair (+7/-7 on the question).
 
People just hate basic questions. That's the whole problem. And they frequently use this room to try to get them closed and deleted.
 
11:21 PM
Well, I'd say that's one of two problems.
 
There's all sorts of prejudice mixed in along with it, stuff about how new the person is to programming, how much effort they put in to solve their problem, how they should have done more searching, and all that noise, but, though those are serious problems in and of themselves, they're really all just noise distracting from the fundamental problem being that people hate questions they already know the answer to.
Which is an incredibly weird prejudice to have on a Q&A site.
 
The other problem is a mindset of trying to figure out why a question could be closed, rather than trying to determine if it's useful for the site.
 
Yes, definitely that.
 
@CodyGray That's because they aren't distinguishing according to the underlying cause of the problem.
@RyanM I only have this mindset because I can very quickly determine that a question is not useful for the site, and then despair that the closure reasons don't properly reflect that lack of utility.
 
@KarlKnechtel I think that's a different mindset than what I'm referring to. You're starting from "is it useful?" - the issue is starting from "can it be closed?" and skipping over "is it useful?" entirely.
e.g., what I'd refer to as "common typo" questions. A common mistake (and thus a useful question) that nonetheless gets closed as a typo, often in spite of a high score showing it's been useful, suggesting the close voters are completely skipping over the "resolved in a way less likely to help future readers" part of that close reason.
 
11:28 PM
@KarlKnechtel I'm not quite sure what this means.
@RyanM The "is it useful?" question is a very useful one, but it is expressed through a mechanism other than closure: downvoting.
 
The upvoters were wrong
 
If you're saying to yourself, "this question is not useful", and then going to try to figure out which of the closure reasons apply to it, then you're absolutely doing it wrong. That's why you are going to have trouble finding a close reason that applies, and it means that any close reason you manage to warp into applying in your own mind is going to be confusing and wrong.
 
@RyanM Writing a canonical Q&A for an established issue and language is quite difficult, particularly when it's not done with buy-in and effort refining it from multiple people involved in the associated tags. The main thing that I'd recommend is trying to get input from other people involved in the tags prior to posting the canonical.
 
@Makyen Grr. I would not recommend this... Asking a question is not supposed to require a collaborative effort from people involved with a tag.
 
@CodyGray Ehhh. I don't think people do a great job with downvotes either. But I agree that it's a better way of expressing it than incorrect close votes.
 
11:30 PM
"not useful" is the only one of several labelled reasons for downvoting that isn't also an explicit closure reason. My confusion here is: what is supposed to be the purpose, in the context of curating a library, of keeping around content that the community has already judged as having no use towards that purpose?
 
@RyanM People can use downvotes however they like. I have no thoughts about "incorrect" downvotes, save for someone who is abusing the voting system by voting on people not posts.
@KarlKnechtel The same reason that books are kept in a library even though people haven't checked them out in weeks/months/years: someone might want to use them later. In a real library, there is a problem of limited shelf space, but we don't have that issue here. Even deleted questions still take up space, so there's really no way of getting rid of them. We are only hiding them.
If what you suppose to be true were actually how the site were intended to work, then posts would be automatically deleted by virtue of being downvoted, but they're not.
 
The "this is not useful" and "this needs to be closed/removed" are orthogonal decisions.
 
creating what I want requires starting over anyway
 
I mean, it sounds like what you want is a book?
 
11:32 PM
Some random bob decided it was worthy of an upvote, potentially even the author, so it’s a stellar question
 
@CodyGray To rephrase: I think people often use downvotes in a way that poorly reflects the utility of a question, particularly when it is initially asked, and especially when it lacks an attempt in a non-debugging problem. I think that this usage of downvotes guides the site in the direction of being a debugging helpdesk where askers must earn the right to an answer, and that's harmful to our goals of building a library of broadly useful Q&A.
 
@KevinB I don't really know what your point is, other than that votes/score is a relatively error-prone heuristic for judging the quality of a post.
 
That's not to say they're "incorrect," as they are merely an expression of an opinion...more that they're, shall we say, unhelpful.
 
@RyanM Yes, it is a big problem that people expect an attempt where that would only make things worse.
 
It is a big problem that people expect an attempt.
 
11:34 PM
@RyanM I tend to downvote questions that don't show any research effort on their own, for the most part.
 
@CodyGray If it's a question the person actually has, then no, it certainly doesn't need others to weigh-in. If it's an attempt to create a canonical for an already existing issue (e.g. consolidate a bunch of questions down into one), then, yes, it's probably better as a collaboration than one user going off on their own. At a minimum, there will be dissenting opinions and those users with a gold tag badge will be able to shut the effort down fairly easily by closing as a duplicate of already existing questions (and such efforts typically are actual duplicates). This is more effectively handled by at least trying to get buy-in prior to moving forward with actually posting what the initiating user thinks is to be a canonical.
 
On the other hand, a lot of questions are simply a matter of following logical steps. (Yes, these are almost always NMF, but the point is that middling SO users don't have that instinct)
 
@Makyen You appear to be assuming that the imagined question is, in fact, a duplicate. Yes, duplicating content with the intent of creating a "better" canonical should probably be discussed and otherwise handled carefully, but that's not what Ryan did. (Maybe I'm bringing more context than you have into this, though.)
 
@Makyen part of the problem there is that we are orders of magnitude away from the strength of community required to "get buy-in" on most things.
Even efforts like the sopython canon wiki are a shadow of what they need to be in order to be actually useful.
 
@TylerH Depending on what you mean by research effort, I may or may not consider that unhelpful. If you mean re-asking duplicates that aren't hard to find, yeah, downvote away. Also if the question is just inherently unhelpful, like extremely localized logic issues that would be found in 30 seconds of debugging. But if it's a novel question that someone else could have, who cares if the answer is on some blog somewhere that'll be offline in a few years, we should have it here too.
 
11:37 PM
even extremely established SO chat rooms, like the Python room (room number six! Still operational!) really don't get much traffic, and aren't a place that you can reasonably claim to establish a consensus.
 
@CodyGray at least we have ROs who remind users of valid/invalid close reasons, including reminders that basic questions are perfectly fine here.
 
We're talking about a website with ~20m accounts, ~20m active questions, thousands of new questions a day... vs. a few dozen people in even the biggest rooms, only a few of whom will speak
there are two opposed problems here: we didn't take "this is not a discussion forum" seriously enough, but we also didn't appreciate the need to also have a discussion forum.
 
"we"
we have no say in how the company builds their platform
 
@RyanM It varies depending on the type of the question. If it's something like "how do I do this thing" and they don't show any attempt at trying it... that's a lack of effort. Especially when it's something they could quickly google
 
@tink I'm unclear how this is not about programming - it seems to be about Python code to me.
@TylerH Including an attempt often adds noise and results in answers that are applicable to just the original asker rather than anyone doing the same thing. Many of the most useful questions on the site do not include an existing attempt at solving the problem.
...suddenly realizing that needs a comma between "asker" and "rather", whoops (it's an excerpt from a mod message template I've written)
 
11:42 PM
Sure, you don't have to include an attempt in every case, but typically there's not even an indication that OP has tried to find the answer on their own
If it's an esoteric or complex or new thing, those don't tend to get downvotes
 
Many of the most useful answers on the site are only the most useful because developers are inherently lazy
 
@RyanM I think the question is very unclear, frankly
 
One that irks me is when people ask "will this code work?" and I'm like... you already have the code. Have you run it? Did it work when you ran it?
 
@KevinB You say that like it's a bad thing. Why should developers spend more effort than necessary?
 
I added a comment along those lines.
 
11:43 PM
i didn't say it was a bad thing, tbh, ;)
 
@TylerH argh, yes, those are... not good questions.
 
but I think @tink has understood it as being about giving the path in question to soffice, in which case it isn't a Python question since the problem would clearly be the same if soffice were run at the command line directly.
Personally, I think OP is trying to put the Python script in a share folder, and then is having trouble running the script; but it isn't clear what that has to do with the os.system call at all.
 
but it does express the idea, the reason the most useful questions are the ones that spent the least amount of effort is because someone spent a lot of effort answering it in a way that a lot of people can now not need to take that effort. That's... not always a good thing, but it is sometimes.
 
@KarlKnechtel What do you mean, "we didn't take 'this is not a discussion forum' seriously enough"? It was and always has been taken very seriously by the site's founders.
 
Lol
 
11:46 PM
@CodyGray I feel like, in a world where people sat down in libraries, wrote books, jammed them onto the shelf and walked out, we might have a different discussion.
 
Yeah, that's why we're not a library.
We're a collaboratively-edited encyclopedia.
 
There's also the part where, in spite of the unlimited virtual shelf space, most of our books are on the floor.
yeah, the tour isn't worded well in that regard, which is also part of why I'm struggling to explain my viewpoint.
@CodyGray I'm not clear on whether this was intended humorously.
 
Well, I think the issue is that you're getting hung up on a real-world library, whereas the person who wrote that text was a programmer who thought of "library" as being a much more metaphorical term.
 
@KevinB Well, I think there are a few kinds of relevant effort. The two useful ones are the "research effort" required to ask a non-duplicate question, and the "problem-definition effort" that is helpful to define a specific, answerable problem that will help others, rather than just "my program doesn't work."
 
@KarlKnechtel It wasn't. At all.
 
11:48 PM
And then there's problem-solving effort, which should be spent writing answers, not questions (other than not asking questions solved by having made literally any attempt at debugging).
 
Ah, well then you see, the issue I'm highlighting is with how users treat the comment sections (I'm guilty of this on occasion).
(but I at least try to restrict my non-meta comments to "here, this is the very brief help you need even though this is not a help desk" stuff before hammering
 
@RyanM i wouldn't be surprised if, say, 50% of the questions we would consider as falling under this category were poorly defined when asked, but were fixed by an asker
not that that's a problem, ofc
it's great that people fix things... but again more often the effort isn't from the OP
 
@RyanM 100%, thanks for the reminder
 
@KarlKnechtel Oh, I see. Yeah, comments were added as an escape hatch. The site's original design didn't have any facility for comments.
 
but the thing is
 
11:50 PM
they're inherantly in the worst position to create a reasonable title, given they don't know wtf they're doing
 
@KevinB I suspect 50% is high, but it's not uncommon that they're still a little bit poorly defined, and people just skip over the meh question and read the useful answers.
 
when the problem is unfocused - i.e., is only "a problem" because of a need to do multiple things - an important part of the problem definition effort ("why actually is this difficult for me?") is actually trying to solve the problem.
the first step is realizing that there are multiple steps. Often that is enough of a push.
which is why I've shifted towards doing comments that just lay out the most obvious breakdown, and asking "can you write code for X? For Y? For Z?"
and then the magic phrase, "if you put these things together, (why) does it not solve the problem?"
 
Yeah, and that's fairly covered under problem-definition. Problem-definition is an inherent part of solving any problem. It's a subset of problem-solving, and the only useful subset for asking a useful Stack Overflow question.
If you don't know the problem, you can't solve it.
 
well yes but like
 
However, sometimes a multi-step problem is focused enough (and a common enough problem) to be a useful Stack Overflow question. (I stress sometimes. Many aren't.)
 
11:54 PM
you distinguished problem-definition from problem-solving, and then acknowledge that the former is a subset of the latter
 
Yeah, that's...maybe a phrasing issue on my part. "Problem solving" should have been defined as "the part that occurs after you've defined the problem.
 
@RyanM this is itself a big issue
the problem is, you don't really know whether it's useful, unless you already are an expert in that niche.
 
it's only an issue because, due to the fact that sometimes it's useful, somtimes turns into always keep it.
 
what I see is that there are basically two cases: it's either straightforward plug-and-chug, combine the X technique and the Y technique in the standard way.
Or else there's something about the combined task that *admits other reasonable approaches*
 
@KevinB I think this is a strawman. I've literally seen people ask how to build entire apps. No one is arguing we ought to be keeping those.
 
11:56 PM
there's a chance, someone, somwhere in the world, one day in the future, will have these 3 pieces put together in this way with this problem
 
@RyanM But I want to build the next facebook and don't know how :-(
 
lol. I think we have a build-a-Twitter-clone question somewhere...hopefully closed as needing more focus.
 
@KevinB That's sorta included in the "all questions about programming" bit of the site's mantra
 
(e.g.: getting indices that go along with elements of a list in Python is a special case with its own built-in handling, enumerate; but it could also be seen as zipping together the original with a list of indices (from a range of at least that length, from itertools.count, etc. etc.)
 
@RyanM probably asked by Elon Musk
 
11:57 PM
bahaha
 
@KevinB I think subject-matter experts can make reasoned decisions about the likelihood of that. But we could have better guidance around making that determination.
 
oh yeah, the other tangent rant here: I have really grown to loathe all those competitive-coding, "code exercise" etc. sites
first off because a million people want to "cheat on homework" that they assigned to themselves
 
"hackathons"
 
second because they have test harnesses that impose weird requirements on the code that show bad practices (what the tomato is class Solution: supposed to represent?)
 
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