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12:00 AM
e.g., how to build a commonly desired specific class of UI: not too broad, even if one could reasonably follow a large number of straightforwardish steps. how to build something my designer specced out just for this project, the whole thing please and not just the general idea: too broad.
 
reminds me of companies hiring people with "code ninja" titles
 
third because people have no idea how to test the code and can't figure out anything about the failing test data (making the generous assumption that they even properly understood the IO spec)
 
@KarlKnechtel Those serve as a good lesson for why you should avoid turning things into a game.
@KevinB Yes. Wouldn't you much rather be a "Code Swashbuckler"?
 
oh, you mean like the reputation system? Agreed (I will repost this comment 10 times per day at regular intervals until I have capped the internet feel-good points the system will allot me for it)
 
> Check out the live tour of our office! Look at all the recreational areas! Checkout the all day snack bar!
i mean
 
12:01 AM
@KevinB when I was last handing out resumes, I remember it being "code rockstar"
 
when i go to the office it's to do a job, not socialize
 
@KevinB I would rather see "you aren't required to be available on Slack"
than a million office perks
 
@TylerH honestly, if I could be paid to do Stack Overflow stuff full tim- oh, you said Slack
 
we have teams, but as far as i can tell... noone's really monitoring who is away when
MS teams, forgot there's a billion things now call teams
it's flakey anyway, anyone who's using it on a browser appears away 90% of the time anyway
 
But yeah. Simple questions. Generalized despair. I want to highlight a particularly depressing search result that I posted in my room the other day.
 
12:08 AM
I use this one: stackoverflow.com/…
 
There are only a few distinct questions that make sense here. Certainly not 1,346 of them. More importantly, I cannot find the most obvious, simplest, and important-as-canonical one: "Q. How do I get the smallest element in a list?" "A. Use min"
@KevinB Wait, what's preventing them from being roomba'd?
 
comments
;)
 
yam it.
 
(downvoting for the purpose of making it roomba viable is bad, or so i was told)
 
>More importantly, I cannot find the most obvious, simplest, and important-as-canonical one
bonus: try to guess what will be the title of the most upvoted result. Seriously, see if you get anywhere close.
 
12:17 AM
@KevinB same, we have a standing policy of 'if you're green, you should respond to a message within 5-10 minutes', but we also have a stupid status report requirement right now that runs based off of our Outlook calendar, so just creating events on my calendar where I'm "working on tasks" satisfies that requirement and also conveniently shows me as busy/red in Teams, exempting me from that response SLA
I wouldn't mind it so much, except a disturbing number of people will message me on Teams and just say "hey" and that's it... and wait for me to respond
I just ignore those messages, since I use Teams at work for work, not chit chat (most of the time...)
 
There's only one person here who does that to me
i tried ignoring it, it doesn't help
he just doesn't get it
he's overseas and our worktimes overlap very poorly
i'm not gonna respond to a "Hey." at 9pm, tell me what you want and i'll help
but he'll fuss in the morning anyway
eh, 9pm is generous, usually it's 11pm, but he sees me online because of course i am
:p
 
12:46 AM
@TylerH I've considered scripting an automated response to these that links nohello.com
(well, internal equivalent, but same point)
 
1:34 AM
@RyanM As I said in the comment - they encountered the issue from within a python script. But from a console the problem would be the same - that thing isn't meant to be used as a normal directory, especially not among several users.
 
 
2 hours later…
 
1 hour later…
4:31 AM
Hello people! I'm new here. Just wanted to say hi and looking forward to helping out :)
 
welcome to the room, please review the links in the room description on the upper right
 
@davidfong Welcome, see the SOCVR FAQ. You can help out by bringing questions to the room's attention that need to be closed, and also by reviewing/voting on requests that are posted in the room. (There aren't many request here right now, but come back in a few hours when European users start waking up and you'll find plenty of questions needing review).
 
5:39 AM
is this a duplicate or not? stackoverflow.com/questions/73955797/…
the asker says that the behaviour keeps changing between iOS versions, is this an enough justification to not consider the question a duplicate?
iOS version aside, there are other questions asking the same thing, but on other iOS versions
 
5:53 AM
 
6:10 AM
I've voted for a bunch of questions asking for book/tutorial recommendations. They should be visible in the close-vote-queue. Still more to come but I don't want to vote them too fast.
 
6:29 AM
@tink this was closed as a duplicate and then (IMHO incorrectly) reopened, should it be moved to the graveyard or reassessed or what?
 
6:44 AM
Shoudn't this have roomba'd already? Asked 12 days ago, last modified 12 days ago, closed 11 days ago, no answer, score 0.
 
@JeanneDark indeed, Roomba predictor says "0 days"
 
Thanks
 
It has been noted on Meta that Roomba hasn't run for a couple of days. Unfortunately, the way that's presented, it looks more like a one-off issue with a single question. If you're reproducing it more widely, then I think that's worth at least a comment, if not an edit.
7
@RyanM You have an internal equivalent of nohello.com? Hmm, this alone might make the hassle of interviewing at Google worth it.
@CodyGray A star wasn't one of the given options, y'all. :-p
 
I can unstar if you like but I thought "roomba has not run" is worth starring in case it comes up again
 
Heh, fair enough.
 
7:01 AM
the other thing about all those zero-effort "follow the steps" questions
is that something like stackoverflow.com/questions/60146275 will attract that many answers
 
You mean that simple questions attract many answers? Yes, that's been true since the site's launch.
 
this is what I mean by "OP already knows how to solve it". The tools are already there in the question setup.
It is not just that they attract many answers.
The answers are bad. They're repetitive, but in a fractal way that doesn't allow me to convince anyone that any of them should be removed.
They're code-only a lot of the time.
And they don't explain anything, because again there is nothing to explain: if you understand the question, you already know the answer - because the answer is to use the same technique that was required to set up the question.
 
This isn't even close to being a unique effect of the types of questions that you describe.
 
....and?
(wow, that actually got through the first line of defense)
 
I must have misunderstood; I thought you were using this as an example of why such questions shouldn't be allowed.
The "first line of defense" is Charcoal, unfortunately.
 
7:06 AM
@CodyGray no, that's exactly what I was doing
Why should it matter if other kinds of questions also cause the same problems?
(though the latter one is unique)
 
If you've just identified a generic problem with questions, then that doesn't very convincingly argue that we should forbid a specific type of question.
 
wouldn't it be more correct to say that SpamRam is the first line of defense, and Charcoal is the volunteer-operated fallback?
 
...
I feel like you're deliberately equivocating here.
"This isn't even close to being a unique effect of the types of questions that you describe."
and
"If you've just identified a generic problem with questions"
- what do those two ideas have to do with each other?
 
@tripleee SpamRam only works when it has been configured, which requires some action to be taken by volunteers.
 
can we articulate some sort of guideline for when these questions are "super bad" enough to warrant closing or other curation efforts?
 
7:09 AM
@KarlKnechtel Same exact thing. You've identified a non-unique problem. Why would one take drastic actions in banning a unique case in order to prevent a non-unique problem? I'm really not getting this.
 
I'm trying to elucidate one such case: the necessary technique for solving the problem is already demonstrated in the setup of the problem.
@CodyGray ...
 
@tripleee The problem with that seems to be that "super bad" is not a close reason.
 
There are many ways that questions can be unsuitable for the site. Yes?
 
I guess I'm not getting it.
Because this makes no sense.
 
@CodyGray which is why some additional articulation effort is required
 
7:11 AM
but for each of those ways, it is a "non-unique problem".
because there are n-1 other ways.
Therefore, by your reasoning as I understand it, every question should be permissible, because every problem with questions is "non-unique"
2
 
like, say, a meta post suggesting "can we please please close when there are (say) six or more VLQ answers"?
 
I'm trying to propose one more (as an object example; there could be many more, if I kept thinking about it) heuristic for identifying questions that are likely to cause a problem.
I.e., reasons to reject a question, that I believe are philosophically on par with existing options like "needs more focus" or "caused by a typo".
 
It seems a lot like saying, "Questions about Java are often poorly formatted, so we should declare Java questions to be unsuitable."
 
like, let me invert this for a second, so that I can understand your philosophy.
 
I'm not sure how good a close reason would be in practice that even the SOCVR regulars don't understand
 
7:14 AM
Suppose I were to argue that "needs more focus" isn't a good reason to close questions, and that we should remove that rule. Why would that be wrong? - no, scratch that. What kind of argument would you present? would it be consequentialist, deontological, something else?
 
@tripleee Attempting to count the number of ways that could be abused resulted in an overflow error.
 
but you can see where I'm trying to go with this? can we articulate a good guideline which doesn't have that problem?
 
@KarlKnechtel The justification would be that such questions cannot be reasonably answered. Meaning that they don't work on a Q&A site where the purpose is to answer questions.
@tripleee My point is that I don't think so, because it's attempting to use the wrong tool for the job.
 
and yet people attempt answers to blatantly NMF questions constantly.
 
Closure is not intended as a way to shut down questions that you don't like or don't think are very useful.
Contra all the rants on Twitter, Meta, Reddit, etc. that say we do exactly that.
Which is why this frustrates me so much, because a non-trivial subset of us are doing exactly that.
 
7:16 AM
so are you just throwing up your hands in the air?
 
Not really. I'm saying that there are specific reasons why questions should be closed, and inventing new ones to capture the "issue" of questions that you don't like or don't think deserve an answer or don't feel are particularly useful is fundamentally misguided.
 
It is not a question of my dislike or personal judgment. It is a question of the fact that such questions gum up search results and make the site less usable.
They aren't things that could be deliberately searched for, and yet they land randomly in search results for other stuff
The questions that I want to get rid of this way are actually harder than questions I want to have. I want to have canonicals for extremely simple questions; and I apparently cannot
because a) people won't ask them clearly; b) people will use a title that belongs on that question, to ask something else
I'm going to go sleep now, because it's starting to feel like I'm repeatedly trying to explain an extremely simple and obvious idea that everyone else in the world somehow just can't get, and this is on the tail end of frustration with trying countless web searches to find a canonical that should be trivial and straightforward to find
 
the recommended workaround I suppose is to create a canonical with your own question + answer and then hammer the bad ones as dupes of that
 
(each of which searches turns up a tangled pile of irrelevant things that should be duplicates of some other, completely unrelated thing, and sometimes I can't find that canonical, so I recurse on that problem
 
which kind of sucks when the answers are all over the place, because then you need a dozen new canonicals to cover all the bases
 
7:22 AM
I may have said this before, but I think a big part of the problem may be that in the questions about technologies that I look at, this problem simply doesn't exist, which is why it isn't a windmill that I feel compelled to tilt at.
 
what technologies do you look at?
If I spent a week monitoring the tags you're most interested in, and found examples of what I'm talking about in those tags, would it change your mind?
because I really honestly don't think this problem is Python specific at all.
 
C, C++, x86/assembly, shell scripting, Windows/Win32. In the old days, VB, C#, .NET, etc., also.
I mean, I don't know. I'm just not understanding the problem you're describing. I almost never find questions that are "gumming up search results"
 
"my golden engraved Rolls Royce embedded controller won't talk to my platinum remote control for my Bang & Olufsen legacy double cassette deck"
 
Heh, yeah. I like high-end stuff and retro-computing. :-)
 
I can tell you right off the top that [c] and [c++] are full of "why did <weird thing happen in this code that has undefined behaviour somewhere else>"
and the best that I know of that we have is the "what is UB" canonical
 
7:24 AM
Well, yeah, but we can also answer them.
 
but whenever I look at questions in those tags, I constantly see appeals to stuff like the "what is a debugger" question and it's always justified
 
in the Python space a monster of a FAQ is "pip can't find my package" and no information about which Python or which pip or what you installed where or which OS you are on, and then a bunch of answers like "did you misspell pip" or "I reformatted my Windows Vista and it fixed it"
 
Yes. >90% of questions on Stack Overflow could be answered with the aid of a debugger and no need to use Stack Overflow.
That doesn't make those questions bad or off-topic or unhelpful to users.
 
as I write this, the most recent non-closed [c] question I could find was stackoverflow.com/questions/73969507
 
It might make the users who ask them lazy or bad programmers, but that's not our problem.
 
7:26 AM
@CodyGray And yet they are unhelpful to users, because there is not any practical means by which someone else could be helped by them.
 
Yet people are every day.
 
no; they're helped by the canonicals.
 
for the C space, I guess "where is my shared library" with answers ranging from "who needs shared libraries, here is a reimplementation in 68000 assembly" to "is it plugged in?"
 
look at the question I just linked. Try to imagine yourself as a beginner who, by some miracle, has the exact same problem, caused by identical code. What would you type into a search engine?
 
The problem is, imagining yourself as a beginner doesn't work.
We are terrible at imagining how posts here are or will be useful to someone in the future.
 
7:29 AM
okay, so, what is your evidence for these questions being useful?
when there are positive mentions of Stack Overflow on social media, what questions are they talking about?
 
People upvote them in large numbers. People talk about how they find them helpful.
 
... really?
 
There's no evidence that they're not useful. It's all just speculation.
 
the question I'm looking at is currently at -2.
or else let me try to put it differently: what things would need to be true of someone else's situation, in order for the Q&A to be applicable to solving that other problem? How could that then be turned into an actual description of the problem that can be put into words, let alone found with a search engine?
 
Why was that question closed as "needs debugging details" when the answerer clearly has enough information to diagnose the problem?
Not to mention the question shows the entire program that they're running.
 
7:43 AM
@CodyGray Maybe it was considered too much - not a minimal reproducible example
 
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. They tried to respond to feedback about their question by editing in more code.
 
the company refuses to give that closure reason a proper name and guidance text, for whatever reason.
 
Really? What is it missing?
 
It should not say "needs details" when it's just as likely the problem is too much code (not minimal; not tracked down)
The "minimal" part really needs more emphasis.
I already showed an example of why in the other discussion in the Meta room.
 
I don't think the "minimal" part needs any more emphasis... The major use-case for the closure reason is when there is not enough information provided in the question to debug the problem. If the problem is that it's not minimal enough, you can either choose to edit it yourself or downvote it because you can't be bothered...
Unless the question goes on for screenfuls and screenfuls, it's not really productive to close questions because they aren't perfectly minimal.
This isn't supposed to be threading a needle.
^ This is also a debugging question that can be argued is just as "useless" as all the other debugging questions that people have been complaining about. However, it's much better posed, coherently written, shows "effort", etc.. I'm curious to see if people will want to close it like the others.
 
8:19 AM
@tripleee I, too, think ti doesn't belong, But some people (high rep, lots of rep) seem t think does. This wouldn't be the first (nor will it be the last) post to be reopened ...
 
I don't agree that it's not about programming, but it seems to be about exactly what the duplicate I hammered it with covers
 
9:18 AM
@tripleee Ahh I haven't seen it.
 
9:30 AM
family-owned business?
 
 
2 hours later…
11:04 AM
A poster has provided an answer to their question WITHIN their question.
i.e.
EDIT:
...this is the answer

Is there any meta post related to answers within questions?
Otherwise - how should one handle this?
Comment and say they should post an answer?
 
jps
11:29 AM
Can we deploy the code without writing lots of coding? Will the coding be required to complete the codes?
 
@jps a philosophical gem
 
Probably a CS research paper assignment
 
jps
@Adriaan should we migrate it to philosophy.stackexchange.com ?
 
@DaneBrouwer Rollback and post a comment that they should answer their own question. I use a canned comment, feel free to reuse: Please do not add answers to the question body itself. Instead, you should add it as an answer. [Answering your own question is allowed and even encouraged](https://stackoverflow.com/help/self-answer).
 
11:46 AM
hmm... just got a declined U/U flag on a thank you comment ending with "CountryX is a Dick", should we not flag such comments, or flag as NLN instead?
 
Whoever handled the flag may have missed that last part
 
Sounds like the most reasonable explanation.
You could do a flag-pls and we can take care of it. I don’t think that violates and rules.
 
the comment got deleted, that's why I was confused about the decline
but it could've been deleted for the "thank you" part
@Adriaan "is there any other vpn can I use it for flutter" - but it is programming related :)
TIL that you need VPN if you want to program in Flutter :)
 
@Cristik you meant to reply to the other one. In that case, it lacks either details or an MCVE. "doesn't connecting" doesn't give us much to go on
 
was joking about the programming part, @Adriaan :)
 
12:29 PM
@Cristik Not the mod who handled it, but the full comment was "@[somename]supportUkraine dude you save my ass. Let me express my appreciation as saying Russia is a Dick." - I assume the moderator observed that it wasn't unfriendly to that user, and thus declined the flag (and the H/B/A flag from another user in the process). I'm not totally sure I agree with that, but it's arguable.
 
How regular users begin their chat messages/comments: "Not the downvoter, but..." How mods begin their chat messages/comments: "Not the mod who handled it, but..."
3
 
If you’re not the user who downvoted it you should cast a downvote
 
1:20 PM
@tripleee a question you dupe-hammered 3 years ago is being discussed on meta
 
@RyanM I was too slow (-:
 
though uh, I'm just gonna go ahead and dupe-hammer this one
yeah
you may or may not wish to comment
up to you, really.
 
2:01 PM
And it was a self dupe.
 
@Adriaan Isn't that a contradiction in terms? A bit hard to pass off content as your own when you say where you got it from.
 
@cigien true, plagiarism isn't the correct term here. It should be deleted on the premiss of "No own content added"
 
Yeah, that seems reasonable.
 
2:19 PM
Can this question be closed as Needs more focus?
Although, the question is formatted properly and seems good.
 
2:31 PM
@SunderamDubey i think it's fine, just might need a little editing. the three questions it's asking are all really the same question
 
@KevinB Ya that's also I think.
 
What to do with these kind of answers? I often see these one-line answers with a link to another SO question. I can leave a comment with "please flag as a dupe instead of answering", but should I flag the answer?
 
wat
it's not linking to an SO question is it?
 
Ah, they edited within the grace period. It did before
My question still stands for the general case though
 
I deleted it for duplicating other answers
 
2:39 PM
Yeah, clear duplicate of stackoverflow.com/a/67955806/208273
if it's just a one-line link to another SO question, comment saying flag as dupe + NAA/VLQ flag is best.
2
 
@RyanM aight, will do that in the future, thanks
 
The comment is useful because otherwise people will leave the canned LQA link-only comment, and it's not really applicable to these.
 
particularly when it's a user that stands to learn from the comment
 
3:41 PM
@JeanneDark How Cody begins his chat messages/comments: "Not the mod who handled it, but downvoted it anyway."
 
@CodyGray And mine is "Thanks! I would have missed it without your reminder. Downvoted!" ;)
 
Perfect.
Just kidding, obviously. No comment should discuss voting.
 
@CodyGray consider tagging this roomba-bug status review. If you need more examples I can provide plenty: I just checked my close vote history for Sep 25-26 and found tons of clearly eligible questions (closed 10 or more days ago, negative score, no answers etc). Guess any active close voter can do the same check and find out
 
@gnat Thanks for the reminder to follow up. Yeah, I'm happy to add the review tag, but someone needs to edit it first and add the examples inline.
When I first read that question, it looked like an isolated case, and, honestly, seemed like little more than a gripe that one particular question wasn't deleted. If I'm going to slap a tag on it, I think it should be phrased more like a report of a widespread bug. The comments help, but aren't visible enough.
 
🚽
 
4:01 PM
@Vickel I removed the part asking for libraries. Just asking how to modify their library config might be on topic?
 
4:15 PM
 
@gnat Thanks. Much less error-prone than me trying to write it while on a Zoom call. :-)
 
4:29 PM
@gre_gor well, you'd need to rewrite/extend the library to resolve the new look. This is in my opinion a too broad/needs more focus question
@gre_gor you'd also need to write a new view file, to make the design change possible
 
^ Seems like an acceptable del-pls request, from a user whose name is based on that of the Maid of Orleans. :-)
... if a little comme ci, comme ça.
 
@DaneBrouwer In addition to Adriaan's advice, if you leave a comment and they don't ever reply or make the change (or if the question is old and you check and they have not logged in for months or years), then you can edit the solution out of the question and post it yourself as a Community Wiki answer with attribution to the OP mentioned in the post; I do this quite often. Sometimes the asker will even come back around and accept that CW answer later on
 
5:04 PM
@CodyGray if you're still on Zoom, say Hi from me to everyone.
 
@rene I'm pretty much always on Zoom these days...
 
Careful. You need to Zoom Out now and then.
 
I think there are Zoom-Addiction Counselling Centers.
... they can give you Pan, as a form of replacement therapy.
 
Pan Dulce?
 
Pan Shokkolat?
 
5:19 PM
I don't think that's a thing
 
It was, admittedly, a poor pan pun.
 
It didn't pan out. You shall be panned.
 
5:54 PM
Why does SO removed the bookmark system and bring the save system instead which can't be seen by anybody?
Like followed posts.
Now it's not possible to see how many users have saved a particular question.
 
@SunderamDubey here is all the backstory: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/382019/…
 
Sometimes, some top users save some important questions, so we have a chance to learn from them, that's also not possible now.
@rene thanks will read it.
Wow, Dharman has also added an answer here.
I upvoted ;)
 
6:11 PM
I have to say, your avatar looks a lot like Sloshy
 
6:42 PM
Apologies, one question I shared above for close vote of not reproducible or was caused by typo wrongly linked to same question which is just above that of Needs details or clarity. Now I can't edit that.
The right is this:
 
6:55 PM
@CodyGray I believe, but cannot verify, that the internal one is actually the original version, and that nohello.com is based on it.
 
7:24 PM
Is this one of those 'dodgy' LQA audits that use posts deleted as spam as "known bad" posts. There is nothing obvious about it that says "spam" ... I only became suspicious because there was not "other answers" tab shown.
 
7:41 PM
Hmm ... that audit seems to be part of a trend. ;(
 
8:39 PM
Guys 11 Qs left in the burnination, some with pending CVs, I can't evaluate what's remaining.
^^ If anyone can take care of that it would be great.
 
8:55 PM
 
9:06 PM
I think stackoverflow.com/q/73634529/11107541 is a duplicate of stackoverflow.com/q/73426766/11107541. Please take a look. (I'm new to this chat so I'm scared of using the cv-pls tag just yet. would it have been appropriate here?)
Oh dear. I think both of those I just mentioned are duplicates of the older stackoverflow.com/q/73337147/11107541
 
(the oldest question isn't always the best dupe target)
 
The rabbit hole keeps giving: Another one (the oldest of the four): https://stackoverflow.com/q/73277690/11107541.
@KevinB is it best to go by quesiton and answer quality or popularity rather than age then?
 
answer quality, primarily
 
@david-fong Seems like an exact duplicate to me, so I've posted the cv-pls.
Apparently SO is lagging right now, seems there's a planned maintenance for today?
We'll system isn't letting me open any posts...
 
9:23 PM
it died
 
@KevinB yep, no way I'm hanging around with this lag o/
 
makes me wonder, if companies are actually paying companies to spam for them like that, or if the spam is phishing. I'd assume the latter.... but....
people pay for the strangest things
 
@KevinB my favorite "why" ones are the Illuminati spam: metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/389356
 
10:46 PM
Is this R/A or just a terrible question?
 
11:18 PM
@AdrianMole Audits are trendy; you heard it here first!
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine The latter.
 

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