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wim
8:04 PM
Hello SOCVR, I want to ask what is your stance when deleting duplicates. I don't see any guidance on that on socvr.org/faq
 
Delete them
 
Depends.. if it's a good signpost, then they're generally not deleted.
 
@Dharman @wim this
 
@wim If they are useful signposts, keep them. If not, feel free to request deletion. Do try to limit the number of request though as delete votes are hard to come by
 
wim
@Dharman don't agree with that, they can act as signposts and help people to arrive at the best answers from other search terms
But what is the criteria for useful signpost
 
8:06 PM
Basically if it adds new search terms, I consider it useful
 
I think you'll have to excuse Dharman :) Rememeber "I will delete everything"? :)
 
@wim Exactly, if they are useful signpost then there's no reason to delete them. If the post is old, has little views, is poorly written, has wrong/misleading answers, downvoted answers or if there is anything else that makes it not a good signpost then delete it.
 
wim
I ask because I just saw a -75 rep today because guys in this room deleted a question I'd answered stackoverflow.com/q/63144023/674039
 
@wim If it's a unique way of asking the question, or has unique answers that aren't basically reiterations of those we already have, I don't touch it.
 
We try to keep as many of them as possible. We keep the ones that help us find the main post or ones that show the same solution from an alternative perspective, possibly helping people understand it better.
 
wim
8:08 PM
It's definitely a dupe (good find from Georgy) but it's not low-quality and it has search terms add/subtract
so, isn't that a reasonable signpost?
 
I have no idea why it was deleted.
 
@ArghyaSadhu @AdrianMole Would you be available to give your point of view?
@wim Do you feel strong enough about it to undelete it? Do you think this will a great addition to this site if we undelete it?
 
wim
yep, I voted to undelete.
 
Why not add that answer to the duplicate target?
 
wim
8:14 PM
I think deleting it does more harm than good for the site
Why would I do that?
It was closed as a dupe after I'd already answered
it was closed accurately, I don't see any value to then go and post same answer on the target.
 
@wim Because why would you want information scattered in two questions? Or are you implying that they are not duplicates?
 
Yes, but does it make sense to undelete it if you can simply add it to the other post?
If you don't see any value in adding this answer to the old post then why should we undelete this one?
 
wim
It makes sense to me, for others to find the result in the search.
@Braiam No and no
 
@wim Whether it's low quality or not is.. subjective. I didn't think anyone in the future would wind up there, so I made a deletion request. I should also admit that I have a personal antipathy for high-reps answering duplicates without marking their answers as community wiki.
 
wim
when you answer a question you don't always know if it was a duplicate or not.
for me, I thought this question wasn't going to be a dupe but I was wrong
 
8:18 PM
@Dharman Well. It's a clear duplicate, that's for sure. And the title is so specialist that I didn't think it serves as a signpost.
 
wim
Marking the answer as community wiki makes zero sense to me
 
@wim and the rep you lost was the consequence. I don't see any reason to undelete that question.
 
@oguzismail I see your point but in future could you consider if there are any other signposts leading to the target. If there's plenty we can delete positively scored dupes, but if there are none we might leave some to help find the original more easily.
 
I have little sympathy for pet peeve questions. Either it's useful for the users at large or it has to demonstrate with evidence that it deserves to be preserved.
 
Ok, I am out of this conversation, but just as I saw no reason to delete the question in the first place I see no reason to undelete it. What's done is done.
 
8:20 PM
I don't see how many ways you can explain order of operands on a language.
 
@Dharman It is such a specific and impractical question that I doubt if anyone's ever gonna search for it.
 
^ +1
 
wim
I can see OP searching something like "add/subtract list" and not finding "Writing a function that alternates plus and minus signs between list indices"
 
It looks like an exercise question so I would assume that a lot of people would be searching for similar phrases.
 
wim
It is an 100% exercise question as the dupe target revealed
Anyway I'm not too bothered either way I'm just curious what your criteria for saying "not a signpost" is.
if you're just deleting all dupes indiscriminately, then I don't think you're doing a good service for the site really, and may be actually degrading the functionality of the search engine.
4
 
8:24 PM
@wim No. The big question, to me, is: "What does your answer offer that the dupe target doesn't already have?"
 
@wim If the title at least had keywords odd/even too, and not a+b-c... it would be harder to convince others to vote for deletion, I guess. No we're not deleting all duplicates indiscriminately, I have several del-pls requests that aged away
 
wim
@AdrianMole Nothing. The answer is the same. If I knew about the dupe I would have closed it myself.
 
@wim Edit the other question title?
 
@wim with or without deleting your answer first?
 
wim
@Braiam don't want to bump an old question up to the main page
@oguzismail I would not have answered
 
8:26 PM
@wim There's no harm in it.
 
@oguzismail You can edit the title yourself
 
@wim If that's your issue, then you lack proper awareness of the mission here.
 
Rather answer a dupe than bump it? Seems counter-intuitive to me.
 
It's having the best possible questions and answer pairs we can collectively achieve.
 
wim
@AdrianMole I did not know it was a dupe when I answered it
 
8:26 PM
@Dharman It'd be better if someone with a good command of English did that
 
wim
believe me I close tonnes of dupes
 
Even community bumps old posts from time to time. Bumping old posts is useful and should be encouraged.
 
If we need to bump 100 or 1000 of questions to achieve that objective, it's worth it.
 
@wim Fair enough. But why the gripe, now?
 
@wim I do believe, just be more careful next time. You have lots of reps, -75 is literally nothing
 
wim
8:28 PM
@AdrianMole because I just saw that it was deleted, now.
 
@AdrianMole Not only that... it would practically be the same, the only change would be the specific question being bumped.
 
wim
@oguzismail nothing to do with rep
 
Dupe and LQPs in [python] have been something of a 'hot topic' of late.
 
wim
Because I think deleting dupes is not best. If it degrades the search it does more harm than good.
 
@AdrianMole Because the whole tag is a disaster
 
wim
8:29 PM
@oguzismail If you are so focused on rep, I really don't mind to delete my answer if the Q is undeleted
 
Focus on harmful dupes first. The ones which have negatively scoring answers
3
 
BTW, "python add subtract list" in DDG and Google leads me to this question stackoverflow.com/questions/3428536/…
 
@wim Wasn't it already accepted? And yes, I am
 
wim
@Dharman yes, this
 
@oguzismail Deleting posts just to reduce someone else's reputation is frowned upon. Don't focus on the rep. Focus on the value.
 
wim
8:32 PM
@Braiam This goal, I agree with. It's the means towards that goal that we are disagreeing
 
Deleting a post to reduce someone's reputation is probably considered user targeting and is not allowed, at least if you are using this room to do it.
2
 
@Dharman reduce? Rather taking back what they didn't deserve yet still had. But you have a point, I shouldn't say that much often
 
@Braiam Hiya, not sure I am with you. Do you think that Q is not ready for reopening? If so, fair enough.
 
@halfer Nah, I'm just wondering if the example is really minimal.
5 headers but not many functions...
 
8:34 PM
@Braiam Gotcha. I don't strongly mind if it remains closed, I didn't think it was a great Q - but I sometimes err in favour of the poster if they have made a good editing effort after feedback. In my experience that is rare!
You can always add your own feedback as a comment, of course
 
@wim for me, something is a useful signpost if the question is phrased in a way that the body or especially the title are likely to be found via common search terms/phrases in Google. Canonicals are not always titled well.
 
I don't really understand why we delete Questions with positively scored good answers. Obviously someone found them useful.
5
 
@Scratte mostly newbies
 
@Scratte Sometimes we delete them if we know the suggestion is harmful.
 
wim
@oguzismail we were all newbies once
 
8:37 PM
@Scratte The internet is a big place. Someone is going to find everything helpful
 
@wim irrelevant
 
@oguzismail So? If they are useful what does it matter if the users that used them are new to the site?
 
@Scratte Eh? I don't have problem of deleting my 30 score answer if I find it misleading and there are better answers. That's what is called commitment to a greater goal.
 
wim
@oguzismail Here is my question to you, how is the site better after deleting an (accurate) dupe? I can tell you how it is worse, the search engine is not able to work as well. So what service are you actually doing here or it's just mindless busy work?
2
 
@Dharman That is obviously not the case here. So what's the point of removing this one? Why not the harmful ones?
 
8:39 PM
@Scratte I mean, those who are new to the technology, not the site.
 
@Scratte I don't know. I am as stumped as you are. I have no idea why it was deleted.
 
Deletion is for stuff that doesn't add value to the site. Most things that are deleted aren't helpful to someone other than OP. In some cases, a few people might find something useful, but overall it's still not useful or is just repeated for the nth time (we still get questions asking how to center something in CSS, if you believe it, and people still answer them).
4
(I'm speaking generally, not about any specific question here, FWIW)
 
@wim I can tell you how it is worse, the search engine is not able to work as well. citation needed
 
@oguzismail They are the ones that need the posts most. We're not making a site that only experts go to.
 
What exactly is "useful enough" to cross the threshold from "delete" to "keep" (or vice versa) is going to vary between users. For that reason, deletion requires multiple votes, and such stuff can be undeleted by relative consensus, too.
 
wim
8:41 PM
@oguzismail that's just common sense - the terms that the OP used in their post are probably the terms that they attempted to searched with ..
if searching the OP's own words finds the dupe, by all means delete it.
 
@Scratte Don't change the topic, we're talking about those who upvote everything without even reading them.
 
@oguzismail That's not the subject. Since same could be said for downvotes. Unless you mean to say only old timers downvote and only new user upvote. We still need those new users and they still need answers, so why get rid of good ones?
 
Complains that we "delete too much" for some reason I translate to "people asks too much"
 
No.. we don't close fast enough. That's a seperate issue.
 
wim
@TylerH I don't agree with your title edit, now it sounds like they want to subtract the values that are odd, but OP wants to subtract values from odd indices.
 
8:45 PM
@Scratte That's still the same problem: there are too many new questions.
 
@wim A single person used those terms to search for it, so what? If you guys really want to undelete that question, okay, do it. I just don't want you or anyone else earning anything from posting an answer that adds nothing new to what we already have in the dupe target.
 
wim
@oguzismail you still didn't answer me how you are improving the site
I'm beginning to suspect it's "don't want you or anyone else earning anything from posting an answer"
which is not the right motive, I am on this site almost 10 years and answer questions fairly rarely. I don't just go around answering dupes
 
@wim By getting rid of a question that will never be viewed by anyone else again.
 
wim
...if it will never be viewed by anyone else again then why does it matter to try and delete it?
it's a soft-delete anyway, it's not like you are saving any disk space
 
@wim Because it still hurts seo.
Too much duplication makes irrelevant question look more relevant to search engines.
 
8:50 PM
@Braiam How can it do that? Two posts come up, so what?
 
@wim I do upvote good answers too, and I really want those who post well crafted answers earn more reputation. My problem is with duplicate answerers
 
~99% of the traffic comes from search engines
 
wim
@Braiam the opposite. it helps search!
 
@Scratte No, one post comes up, one that I'm not searching for.
@wim No. Again, too much duplication hurts.
 
wim
@Braiam true but this is not a case of too much duplication
 
8:51 PM
@Braiam Good. Then there's a link from that to the other. It's not like we're talking 100 duplicates. It's two posts!
 
wim
like I said I am on site 10 years and I did not know this dupe
I do know hundreds of dupes and use them regularly
 
@wim It's not like something hard, I just clicked a few keys to see if others agree with me. And two of them did.
 
> The more internal links a page has, the more likely it is to be seen by Google as interesting and worthy of ranking. It is the same logic that applies to followers on Twitter or Facebook; the more real ones, the more likely a page is of interest.
 
@wim fixed
 
@Braiam where's the quote from?
 
wim
8:54 PM
@oguzismail just because you can find 2 people that agree with you it doesn't mean you are right
 
@wim I never claimed it does. It was SO that decided that three votes are enough to delete a post
 
wim
@Braiam If dupes all show up in the "Linked" sidebar, then this was the second time the target had been used as a dupe.
 
@Braiam taking into account this quote which question is relevant to my problem?
 
wim
and the other linked wasn't closed nor deleted... stackoverflow.com/q/52880477/674039 (5 crappy answers)
 
8:56 PM
lol "Highly active question".. it's a bit misleading.
 
@Scratte It was protected. Someone through that it wasn't inclusive enough
So they made the term imprecise
 
But I read it as.. duplicates are good. More internal links.
 
@Scratte Too much duplication is bad.
 
Two is not too much.
 
wim
@oguzismail I don't know if the others are actually thinking for themselves or whether the room is just acting like a voting mob
 
8:58 PM
@wim Btw, I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself clearly. I don't know you, I don't have any personal problems with you specificly, it was an isolated incident that I saw a high-rep answered a dupe, and didn't see any value in the post itself.
@wim I do hope the former is the case
 
@Scratte Where did you count "two"?
 
@wim I think this discussion is proof that we're not even agreeing here, so we're not really a mob.
 
I can't see the Question, as it's deleted. I'm assuming it's two or tree posts at the most. Mostly due to the fact that if there was already 20 posts linking to the target, I'm sure that would not have been left out of this discussion.
@wim Thank you :=) That's two :)
 
wim
@oguzismail the answer has a link to the sequence operation slicing docs.python.org/3/library/… this is the most relevant section of the docs, which is not present anywhere on the dupe target. That is some value, I think, but most the value is by linking in the search engine.
 
9:04 PM
@wim Oh, that's funny, because the search terms provided were "python add subtract list"
 
@wim Just add it to the dupe target then.
 
wim
@oguzismail I did not know the dupe target
 
Add it now, I mean
 
wim
no, you make more busy work for me.
I don't want to go edit some old post just to shoehorn this docs link in there, and bump it up on the main page.
 
@wim There's nothing wrong with bumping it, and by making that edit you'll make the target even more valuable.
 
wim
9:07 PM
I will do that if I can't get the dupe undeleted, but really I'd rather not to bother - I think having a couple of dupes is fine (unavoidable even)
 
Note, undeletion by default bumps the question being undeleted.
 
wim
Bummer. It should not have been deleted in the first place, though.
 
The only thing that doesn't "bump" questions is deletion, for obviously reasons.
 
Is the Question bad? Is the Answer bad? Is it the n'th (n > 10) duplicate?
 
wim
@Scratte No x3. It is undeleted now, thank you.
 
9:10 PM
@wim It wasn't me. I can't vote :( I can only opinions :)
 
wim
@oguzismail That's what I normally do, when I know it's a duplicate.
 
@wim Could you share the link to the question?
 
@Scratte It was Makyen, I'm disappointed
 
@oguzismail Perhaps it's better for the site.
 
9:13 PM
@Scratte Disagree
 
I was just told that back in 2008 there were no comments. (long before I started serving) What to do about a 2008 wiki answer that half asks for clarification and then offers a solution based on the premise that the response of that clarification suits the recommendation? Is it NAA? stackoverflow.com/a/123757/2943403
 
@mickmackusa maybe flag for mod & ask them to convert to comment?
 
@mickmackusa Done.
 
@mickmackusa I see those a lot. I do not think they are NAAs.
 
Yes, I know I can, but should I? What is your opinion?
 
9:17 PM
It's a out of the box solution to the problem.
 
@wim I was actually considering to post a del-pls regarding that question. I scratched my head if the previous title "add/subtract list (a-b+c-d+e)" was searchable to have it as a sign-post but, in the end, decided to leave it be. The current title is much better and doesn't overlap with duplicates' titles.
 
But it is a hologram of the original box. If we let people reshape question requirements/circumstances as they wish, then questions are vulnerable to being stretched into Too Broad territory.
 
@mickmackusa I feel that OP is asking the wrong question ;)
 
It can even be rephrased to avoid making the question, like a "If you can ... then ..."
 
How to validate X using regex is almost always the wrong approach.
 
wim
9:21 PM
@Georgy I see the point but I don't think it's necessarily a bad title before. It's actually easy to understand what they mean when you see a pattern of alternating signs like a - b + c - d + e
 
wim
sometimes I wonder if "organic is best" when it comes to dupes...
 
Is the fringe case in close enough proximity of the question which asks for a regex to validate phone numbers? We don't know if the OP even has access to a "form" with fields or if the data is coming from an IP or some other channel.
 
wim
like whatever crazy terminology the OP use is whatever crazy terminology that OP's might attempt to search for
not necessarily what a user who is already more experienced with the problem would search for
e.g. you don't know to search for "knapsack" or "coin change problem" if you are not able to see that your problem is isomorphic to that in the first place
so if we change all knapsack problems to have knapsack problem in the title, it only helps those that already know what they're looking for..
 
@Braiam as a regex advocate, I don't know that I agree with your stance. So long as there is a sufficient battery of sample inputs to express the variability of the data, I don't see anything wrong with "how to validate X using regex".
 
9:24 PM
@wim AFAIK Google doesn't care about non-alphanumeric characters in search queries. Don't know about DDG
 
@mickmackusa "almost always the wrong approach"
Most people don't need validation, but verification: ie. actually contacting the number
 
...yeah, I'm not on board with that stance.
 
Same with emails, addresses, etc. is the onus of the user to provide a valid number, not the system to make sure you provide one.
 
wim
@oguzismail Makyen is member for 6+ years, an RO here, and now a moderator .. I think he should have a good feel for what should be kept and what should be deleted
 
I'm more of a inputtype kind of guy, for mobile users. For everyone else, MC.
 
9:26 PM
sure, there are some cases where verification is more ideal -- but that comes at a greater computational cost -- so is a case-by-case determination.
 
@wim Yes, he should have
 
@mickmackusa elaborate that computational cost. If I'm big enough to automate verification, such costs must be negligible in my end.
 
I'll jump into @wim's conversation halfway... I think we (content curators) have a duty to improve and standardize terminology for the benefit of researchers. I don't know how many times I've added "transpose" or replaced the misuse of "transpose" to make a question more accurate. There will be many users who do not know what this term means, but we are perfectly positioned to educate these users by presenting the term in correct circumstances.
2
 
wim
@mickmackusa I get where you're coming from, my point is more that search is a "big data" problem and if posts are edited to only use the correct technical terminology, then you're removing some of the "data" here..
 
@Braiam I only mean that checking the characters in a string are deemed valid is going to be less expensive than making some sort of remote lookup to verify legitimacy. I'm not starting a war here. That cost may or may not be negligible -- it depends on the volume/frequency of that operation against what the system/user(s) can "tolerate".
 
wim
9:33 PM
what is being removed is the human element, the language that someone uses when they're grasping for a problem but don't know the correct technical terms for it (yet)
and that inaccurate language is what a good search engine needs to be able to capture and find a meaningful result from
 
@mickmackusa Oh, you mean checking that everything is a number? That's ok. But from there to be "checking if this number follow any of these arbitrary semantic rules" is more complex and error prone. I thank god that there's a tel input type for html forms, so that I don't have to worry about that :)
 
wim
google is really good at this, I can search "thingy on the end of a shoelace" and find Aglet even if I didn't know that it was called an aglet beforehand
 
@wim Hey, Bing is also good enough to do that too!
 
wim
hahh, yeah because bing scraped google results
 
@wim Honestly, I haven't scrolled high enough in this thread to see the full convo and I haven't gone to the page being referenced. Theoretically, it doesn't need to be a "zero-sum game" -- content doesn't need to be removed, per se, I guess the title should use the most popular term for the sake of searchability, but the body should try to reinforce the correct industry term and aim to improve the vernacular.
 
9:38 PM
@oguzismail Two duplicates isn't "too many". The new question hasn't existed long enough to know if it is a good signpost, or not: check back on the question in a few months or a year and look at the number of views. There really is no substitute for time in order to determine if something is a good signpost, or not. Deleting a question in order to control how much reputation the answerers receive is inappropriate. Moderation actions should be about content, not users.
Keeping a dup, particularly one where the dup-target has very few existing duplicates, is a very cheap way of seeing if a question is a good signpost. Personally, I'd be much more interested in weeding out some old, low-view duplicates than deleting new duplicates, which might end up being good signposts.
@wim Ideally, all content from the answer would be moved into an answer on the dup-target and the answer on the duplicate would be deleted. If the duplicate has no answers, then users who are not logged in are automatically forwarded to the dup-target, which is where we collect answers in order to have them findable by future visitors. On several posts which I answered and I later found were duplicates, I've ended up moving my answer to the dup-target and deleting the one on the duplicate.
 
@Makyen *cheap :)
 
wim
@Makyen thanks for chiming in, we are on the same page regarding dupes
 
@Braiam Thanks.
 
wim
@Makyen yes, however I can not - the system does not allow me to self-delete my answer on the dupe because it's been accepted
 
@Makyen Yeah, I know, I also would love to be able to edit other people chat :D
 
9:41 PM
@wim Yes, I know, which is frustrating. I've definitely been there. If you are willing to move it, I'm happy to help with the deletion, once you're ready.
 
wim
When I can, I do the same as you asked
I even asked on meta for more delete votes for exactly that purpose You have already deleted 5 of your own posts today; further deletes are blocked
 
@wim Thanks. Because I'm already involved in this specific case, feel free to ping me in here for that. In general, you can raise a custom mod-flag and explain that you've moved the content.
@wim Yeah, unfortunately, there needs to be a balance between allowing people to moderate and improve the site and preventing people who are acting against the better interest of the site from being able to achieve too much, too quickly. Where that balance needs to be is difficult to determine.
 
@NathanOliver darn, if only I voted a couple seconds sooner...
 
it's alright. I bookmarked it so I can go back to it next week and put a del-pls
 
@Braiam Being able to edit my old messages is a really nice perk. I've also found it convenient, on a few select occasions, to adjust the formatting, or with permission, the content of a few messages by other people. However, that's something which I am reluctant to do.
 
9:48 PM
@Makyen @wim Let me know too.
 
@Makyen On chat is more of nitpick of mine, rather than something super useful. I would be very bumped if I couldn't do that on the site, for example.
 
10:07 PM
 
10:46 PM
@Braiam It looks like your edit just changed the question mark at the end of a question into a period, without rephrasing it into something that's not a question. Was that what you meant to do?
 
10:58 PM
@RyanM It reads like an affirmation: If it's possible doing X, then you can do Y. That way Z is easier.
 

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