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6:03 PM
@AdrianMole I'm not sure what the point of that link is. The answer by Jeff is a modification to a close reason? How long has it been since that close reason and text have been actual close reasons? I don't recognize that text at all.
 
@Turing85 There's no canonical, but lots of post from various other posts. See Robert Harvey's Answer to Got review ban for reviewing as 'Looks OK' for a question which I still think is OK
 
@cigien Just one of the many posts that came up with a search on Meta.SE for "close no effort." I picked that one semi-randomly.
 
Then there are lots and lots or more or less angry/snarky comments on meta about it never been a close reason. But those are tricky to find.
 
... always try to throw Jeff A. into an argument ... it keeps Cody at bay! :-)
 
6:06 PM
@Turing85 If you want to see a good post about what I'd call abusing or misusing close votes, there's Why was my code translation question closed?
 
@Scratte Thanks
 
@AdrianMole Some of us want Cody to get off the bay.. and starting some nice snark again :D
@cigien I read the Answer to that as being: We don't have it, we don't want it. I've changed the wording so you guys don't get confused about it. (Not that it worked too well..) triple ping now? Sorry..
 
Ping me once, shame on you. Ping me twice ...
 
lol!. That doesn't even apply! :D ..I'm crying now.. :D
 
@Turing85 May I ask why you want this? If it's so that you can point users to it when you get into a discussion about it, I can assure you that's pointless. As the "code translation" meta that Scratte linked to will make abundantly clear, plenty of users are completely comfortable admitting that they will continue to close no-effort questions while knowing full well that it's not a valid close reason.
@Scratte Oh no, my disastrous sense of humor strikes again :(
 
6:16 PM
@cigien I found it very funny. Some of us starts to cry from laughing :)
 
@Scratte Ah, crying with joy :) I don't often evoke that response, so yay!! :D
 
If you want to triple-ping, you should try tripleee. Maybe you'll trip up, though.
 
The tripleee with a triple string instrument?
 
Zoe
I think you meeean with a tripleee string instrumeeent
 
@Turing85 Well, in such situation, the majority of these questions usually are either too broad (need more focus), or need more details and clarifications about the problem.
Thus it's valid to close them for these reasons.
What did you try? like comments, had been identified as unnecessary noise, long time ago already.
 
6:33 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I'm afraid that misses the point of the entire "is no effort a close reason" debate. No one is denying that a no effort post may be closable due to any number of valid standard close reasons. And closing with those reasons is obviously fine. The debate is: when none of the standard reasons apply, should a no effort question be closed just because it shows no effort?
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Note that, when you attempt a "What did you try?" comment, the system gives a popup that advises to "downvote and move on" (not "close vote and move on").
 
Still looking for the triple flute hat.
 
@cigien OK, sorry. I jumped into that discussion late here. Ty for the background info.
 
6:49 PM
np
@AdrianMole Congats btw. Have you used it yet? :)
 
@cigien Heh - I used half (CV queue with one dupe vote already in).
 
Ah, well you'll get the chance soon enough.
 
But even that "puts my name in the spotlight." :-)
 
Yeah, all shiny :) I felt great the first few times I used it. Nervous of course, but still good.
 
7:34 PM
@desertnaut That one doesn't need to have been linked from a new post, it has recent activity anyway.
 
@cigien thanx, didn't notice that
 
Oh dear, an OP posted a question with the first sentence "I am not sure if this is the right subreddit to post my question on." :(
 
@desertnaut I'm not sure about this one. It does have 4 questions, but the answers really just seem to be answering the first question. Can the question be edited perhaps?
 
7:45 PM
@cigien I am not sure; even if we could claim it for the first 3 questions, the 4th one is problematic in itself
if you don't feel comfortable, no worries - just pass
 
@desertnaut This is now the 3rd time you've said that to me, so I should probably point out that I'm well aware that I can pass on a request that I'm unsure about. Usually when I ask a follow up, it's because I think the request is invalid, or as in this case, that the post can be edited into shape.
 
@cigien 3rd time? sincere apologies (I'll confess I do not keep such kind of records). You are very welcome to try to edit the question yourself into shape (apologies for repeating something you also know) - personally I don't think I can do it.
 
@desertnaut No worries :) That came across a bit more formal than I intended perhaps. I was just clarifying that I don't ask follow ups for all the requests that come in here. I simply ignore all the ones I have no clue about, and ask about the ones for which I think I can contribute :)
I'm not sure the question can be edited into shape either. I'll take another look and see what can be done about it. Thanks for checking.
 
@cigien anytime ;)
thanks for triggering (there is always the possibility that we miss something, and VTC'd questions can indeed be edited into shape)
 
8:01 PM
 
8:22 PM
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman Mod flag if it seems suspicious. It doesnt look that bad to me, but I'm no Node JS expert.
 
@10Rep Well, out of flags - temp flag ban! :(
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman I'm sorry, I don't see the purpose of this message. Are you concerned that some users are abusing the system? If so, please raise a mod flag. Since you know that you're out of flags, your bringing up the conversation suggests that you would like someone else in this room to take that action. I feel that falls under the umbrella of moderating users, and that's not really allowed in this room.
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman ooh. On the other hand, it's off-topic here, as that's moderating users I guess.
 
@cigien Alright, won't do it again then... Not just that, I thought of bringing it others attention and what others say about this.
 
8:27 PM
Okay, I won't be doing it again, as the time to delete has gone. @rene Can you remove my message?
Sorted. Thanks.
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman It's fine to ask for feedback like that, so long as it's not about specific users. In the future, describe the true situation as thoroughly as you can, without linking to the post, or revealing the user's identity in any way. I think that should be just fine.
 
sdc coffee for me
 
@10Rep brews a cup of Espresso for @for
 
8:53 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ That's a how-to question, so there is no code that needs debugging details. Also, which part of that question is unclear?
 
9:05 PM
FTR: http://i.stack.imgur.com/HKC2W.png#.png
taken from: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/404004/to-close-or-not-to-close-that-is-the-homework-question/404014?noredirect=1#comment816289_404014
 
9:24 PM
@cigien Might well fall into that category that was discussed before here :-/
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Yes, it does :)
 
9:36 PM
@Makyen As you mentioned in this message, you would like there to be a discussion meta regarding the line item before you'd be willing to remove it from the help center. Based on preliminary discussions here with the original author of that line item, it appears that a reasoned argument can be made in a new meta that the line item should be scrapped.
However, it is unclear to me what metrics you'd use to judge whether consensus has been reached. e.g. one idea is that I'd make a simple meta stating "Proposition: Scrap line item 3, Reasons: [blah blah], Upvote if agree, Downvote if disagree", and then we can just tally the votes in a couple of days, and see if the ratio crosses some predefined limit. I don't really know how to go about this exactly, and I'm open to any suggestions.
 
sdc coffee for me
 
@bad_coder brews a cup of Affogato for @for
 
@cigien Defining when consensus is reached is tricky. As users could also downvote your post if they feel it's been discussed before. I find that usually the consensus is measured from the Answer that has the highest score. But that also means that someone very good with words have to write a good Answer. Not entirely sure if an Answer with the score of 1 even if it is the highest scored one can be classified as consensus.
 
9:55 PM
@Scratte Absolutely, but note that I am not looking for a general definition of consensus. Only moderators can edit the help-pages, and so far Cody and Makyen are the only ones who have shown any interest in this whatsoever. Cody already agrees that the line item should be removed. Makyen is literally the only person who needs to be convinced that there is consensus, and so their definition of consensus is actually all that I care about in this particular instance.
 
@cigien And it should further be noted that the point of content was added unilatteraly by a single person.
 
You mean we're going to create a meta first about how consensus is defined? :P
@Turing85 Yes, but that has been argued as being added due to the consensus reached by the meta posts linked from the on-topic post.
 
@Scratte care to share?
 
@Scratte Nah, I just need to know how Makyen defines it. Of course, given how uncharacteristically vague and unclear Makyen has been about the whole homework issue, including where they stand on it personally, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Makyen's response is something like "I'll know there's consensus when I see it". We shall find out either way eventually.
 
@cigien not true, 2 mods gave their opinion, remaining mods didn't take a stance one way or the other.
@Scratte (what exactly are we talking about if I may ask :P ?)
 
10:03 PM
@bad_coder Sorry, isn't that what I said? Which part of my message suggest anything different?
 
@cigien every part of it.
 
@Turing85 That's in the chat message that was linked by cigien in "in this message". Inferred from "IMO, given the existing Meta FAQ removing it needs more discussion than just in here."
 
@Scratte oh... that one... again...
 
I think I've seen another variation of it in a later discussion also, but I can't remember where.
 
@bad_coder I would suggest taking some time to read some of the transcript, or ask questions about what discussion is being had, before trying to interpret the meaning of individual messages in isolation. Otherwise, you run the risk of misunderstanding some messages, and derailing the conversation by asserting that some messages say the opposite of what they actually say.
 
10:07 PM
@bad_coder Homework :) Should "I'm doing an assignment for school and I'd like to know what the difference between git fetch and git pull is" be shot down, if "What's the difference between git fetch and git pull" is OK?
 
Can someone who knows R check if this is ok to reopen? Seems reasonable, but I'm not sure.
 
can somebody actually check the and tell me if there is any actual usage for it? It has only two questions besides this one, one of them seem to not need that tag and second probs too, any thought?
 
if that user that added the tag in Feb, hoped on getting a bronze badge for that tag then a lot more questions were needed. I think nothing is lost if it gets removed
 
10:30 PM
@cigien like I said, you make bold statements that aren't accurate. (We're still waiting for that urgent pull request you unequivocally claimed you would do last month).
 
@bad_coder Yes, you said that you found my statement to be inaccurate, but you failed to mention why. It's a little difficult to incorporate feedback like that when it's incomplete. As to the PR, I wrote quite a long message explaining why I had changed my mind about making that PR. Would you like me to share a link to that message in the transcript?
 
Uh, if this is going to be the 5-minute argument then I can offer the Ministry to get the two of you settled.
 
@rene I never get involved in arguments (I'll postpone any reply for 2021 :) )
 
I got a different impression.
 
@rene Thank you for pointing out that this is not the appropriate place for such a discussion. I'll continue this discussion in the Ministry if I choose to do that. Sorry for not disengaging earlier. cc @bad_coder We can continue this in the Ministry if you'd like.
 
10:37 PM
let me know if you want messages moved to that room
 
I don't need them to be moved personally. Feel free to bin my second to last message, (the one I wrote in response to bad_coder) if you feel it's inappropriate for this room.
 
meh
 
@Scratte well, (I haven't yet said opinion about this) the "homework" issue. It should be correlated to the other close reasons - the canonical post by itself adds mostly specific circumstance (like "school policy" and plagiary insight.)
 
@rene Thanks for the Monty Python reference, I wasn't aware of it. And I'm sorry again about that last message. I knew before posting that it was going to be unproductive, but I couldn't stop myself. It being a holiday, and me being on my second glass of egg-nog is not really an excuse. I'll be more careful about these things in the future.
 
@Scratte and those circumstances are extremely important (think in terms of justice, one student works like heck, the other gets an answer on SO at the cost of no effort.)
 
10:46 PM
@bad_coder That's just life. And life is not fair. We try to make it fair, but it's not. One person is born with intelligence and learns to type at 140 wpm with ease while someone else is born much less fortunate and shovels coal their entire life.
 
@Scratte I came across a post today, that was basically a screenshot + "how can I do this?"...What's the right approach there? It's not clear, there isn't a set rule. And the "homework" questions are a bit like that.
 
@bad_coder And what of answering work-related questions? The OP uses my answer to make their new product work and gets paid for it. What do I get, other than (maybe) a few Unicorn Points?
 
We cannot prevent users from cheating at school, not can their institutions. People have been cheating from before they were even humans :P The only thing you can do it find a way to detect it.
 
... but I still answer, if I can.
 
@Scratte if you believe in evolution that means monkeys went to school :) ?!
 
10:49 PM
@bad_coder A screen shot? That's.. usually unclear, because unless the screen shot is showing something that cannot be text, it's not to be considered part of the post :)
 
Nah - Monkeys are the ones that didn't do school.
 
@bad_coder No. Animals steal from each other too, you know :)
 
@AdrianMole well, in the case of a student (depending on level) he's likely getting his whole work done (and that ain't fair).
@Scratte well, then we went to different schools...Mine were certainly brutal at fraud prevention.
 
But kids who were at school with me, long before the interweb existed, used to get their parents to 'help' with their homework. It generally ended badly for the pupils, though, come exam time.
 
@bad_coder At mine they didn't try very hard to prevent it. They made sure we didn't speak to each other during written exams. But once caught for a minor incident one lost all grades of that particular year. If it was a more serious case, one lost all grades and could never go to another exam, effectively ending the education. This was at university.
 
10:59 PM
@Scratte yes, something like that.
@AdrianMole yes, I'm well aware and we both could elaborate on it.
 
@bad_coder And "getting their whole work done" is not entirely accurate. They're getting some work done fast with no effort of their own. But life has a way of getting even with such things. How will they pass their exams if they can't work it out on their own? How will they keep a job if they don't know things that they're suppose to?
^ ahh.. I'm slow. I see AdrianMole already covered this :)
 
@cigien Hmm ... maybe there is a use for the Gibberish tag? xD
 
@Scratte this seems argumentative (in the abstract) for a number of reasons. Chief of which is the policy of closing ASAP (Cody has been a clear proponent). Maybe there's an exact duplicate somewhere, but in the time it takes me to find it (and probably outside my expertise) the question has a number of answers already...
 
@AdrianMole Ha. I genuinely thought you'd found a use :)
I'm actually still open to the idea. If something does come up, let me know.
 
@Scratte The essential issue with "homework" questions is that most of the ones I see ask for implementations of functionality (thus they are multi-part, prone to need focus).
@Scratte this leaves answers in a tough spot (unless you have a gold hammer and close as with multi-duplicate targets).
 
11:05 PM
@bad_coder Yes, but how does the speed of closing a post depend on the reason you use?
 
@Scratte because the most useful closure is find a duplicate that accurately provides the answer to the question (and may require that you read 20-30 threads to find that optimal one. So it takes time and places a burden on the reviewer.)
 
@bad_coder But those post should get closed at lacking focus anyway, no?
@bad_coder It's not your task to close it as fast as you can. If it was, you wouldn't be allowed to sleep or work or eat. You'd be having to monitor all post as they come in, no? :)
 
@Scratte well, that is stated policy (to some degree it's a part of SOCVR's mission. And I have to agree with Cody on that, if you don't close ASAP -perhaps reopening latter- the duplicates just add by the dozen every day - and deleting them takes 10k upward, so there are less curators for the job.)
 
@bad_coder I think the policy is to not delay closing them. But no one is being forced to vote on the posts. I don't see policy as close them in 1/10 of a second :)
So if you see a post that should be closed for something that's an actual reason, you're suppose to cast your vote when you see it. You're not suppose to schedule it for tomorrow :)
 
@Scratte ASAP seems like a good description, if there's another "how to sort list in Python" thread, it will have 5 answers in 5 minutes - so ASAP really is, ASAP... :)
 
11:15 PM
Though I have done that on some occasion, where it's just a minor detail that needs clarifying. That's because it's very difficult to get a post re-opened and very easy to get is closed.
@bad_coder Yes, I see. But I think you're placing a burden on yourself, that you shouldn't. It's not on you that it gets closed before anyone can post an Answer. It's not your fault that others post Answers on it. And if they do, them maybe they're even good ones.
 
@Scratte Not wanting to over complicate, the deciding factor in reopening is often the comment under the question by an established poster giving a brief explanation why it should be reopened. Mods are very inclusive in this regard, if the OP shows effort they might reopen for that reason alone (and leave any curation to the future.)
 
@bad_coder Showing effort shouldn't be a determining factor. A question just needs to be on-topic and answerable.
I've seen lots of effort go into a post that's still not answerable. And very little making one completely fine.
 
@Scratte maybe it shouldn't, but it's their prerogative and I enjoy seeing their liberality in that regard.
@Scratte maybe I am placing a burden on myself, but I'm not a guy to falsify things.
 
I don't understand. Falsify what?
 
@Scratte whatever it is that I'm doing, falsifying by lack of effort or solicitude or in any other way.
@Scratte but lets keep focus, we digress. The entire point of discussion is only:"should an homework Q be closed for not having an attempt at solution". Answer is no, Dharman had a highly stared post in this room a couple of months ago stating exactly that.
 
11:25 PM
I'm not sure it included the word homework.
which is the topic.. the "no effort" is not the same topic :)
 
@Scratte around that time, I argued and Makyen agreed, the effort of clearly formulating the problem at hand might be enough, by itself "to constitute a valid attempt of solution".
@Scratte then what is the topic, please? (Because that was your point of discussion for 48 hours up until yesterday if I'm not mistaken.)
 
I have a few topics that I discuss interchangeably. Sometimes I even confuse myself.
 
@Scratte I'm certain you do, it's not the topic in itself, but the art of discussion that leads me to participate. So please...
 
Assuming that it's fine to ask a "No effort" Question. Then why does a "homework" post have to show effort? What if there's no mentioning of "homework" in the post? Can anyone just infer that it's homework if it's a simple Question? Will removing the word "homework" make it a non-homework post? Will other users be less likely to find and use the Answers just because it has "homework" in it?
Have you heard of the Ministry of silly hats? :)
 
@Scratte MOSH
!
 
11:33 PM
That just looks so wrong :) I keep seeing that soldier in a dress when I see MASH MOSH
 
@Turing85 kannst Du bitte das wort erklären?
sdc esspresso
 
@bad_coder No such command 'esspresso'.
 
sdc coffee
 
@bad_coder brews a cup of Cappuccino for @bad_coder
 
@bad_coder MOSH? Ministry Of Silly Hats
 
11:34 PM
ahh the coffee of Italian Franciscan friars :)
@Turing85 problemO - a capuchino isn't exactly a hat :/
 
@bad_coder I know nothing about anything coffee-related :)
 
@Turing85 Not entirely sure about that. You know Java and beans, right? :)
 
1
Q: Do we need [seeeduino]?

RuliToday I have found out about seeeduino tag existence. There is no wiki on this tag. This tag has only three questions, one is currently closed as general computing. The other two seem to not need that tag anyways - both are also tagged with arduino. Is there any reason to keep this tag, or should...

 
So.. all you need is a Stream (of hot water) and.. you're done :)
 
@Scratte Well I like the indian ocean and chili con carne =)
 
11:42 PM
You can have both. Can I have Norway, Canada, and the sea between? :)
 
@Scratte Not Canada!
 
@Turing85 I'll share it then, if I get the bikini island.
 
@Scratte you can have the bikini islands, and I get japan :)
 
Heh.. Good choice :) Now I'm divided if I'd like China or New Zealand..
 
@Turing85 the name cappuccino means "hood" in Italian. It's the nickname of the Order of Friars Minor, aka cappuccino friars. Here's an example of one friar wearing the characteristic hood
 
11:51 PM
@bad_coder But are the monks named after the monkeys, or the monkeys named after the monks. Or are the monks named after the coffee? Or the Coffee named after the monkeys?
 
@AdrianMole your usual response to such iconic references is humor, while I don't think the pun is adequate I could answer you later after hitting the etymology dictionary.
 
@AdrianMole I had forgotten about the simian :)
@Scratte I'm convinced by your concise Socratic enumeration that you are the right person to raise the issue on meta. You and no one else. The formulation is near perfect, one short paragraph to introduce the subject in your usual style and it's a new canonical redefining policies.
@Scratte perhaps: "no effort questions are in principle allowed, but apparently not for homework." What is the deciding factor (and since there's no apparent adequate response the dogma is irremediably called into question.)
 
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