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12:00 AM
It's mainly the default leakage into LIB that I'm concerned with.
 
some features which would make the loader less manual were always planned, but in reality, I find that these break the concept and make modules just like C includes so generate as much issues as they fix.
 
Fortunately, private modules fix that, so that's something to go with.
 
@earl right, cool. Actually, porting slim to R3 is one of my goals, whether it be through convincing Maxim to do so or doing so myself. No need to have the fans of strong modularity miss out on the R3 fun :)
 
Is there some header option to not have LIB imported into a module by default?
 
@earl not really, at least not yet. But I would love a way to specify an alternate lib, for sandboxing, or none. I need some help coming up with a simple-enough model for it though; my previous simplicity advisor was Carl, and you guys are too familiar with strong modularity to be a good judge. I'm probably going to have to enlist a smart newbie.
 
12:06 AM
I think believing that modularity is too complex for "newbies" is a fallacy.
 
If the module system is too simple, someone is going to decide to bring in dependency injection, which is not going to be simple for newbies, or concise, etc...
 
@earl well, it's OK for you to say that. You are just the type of guy that private modules are intended for.
 
As in, external, not part of the language, dependency injection
Ala Spring
ick
 
Dependency injection is so simple in Rebol-like languages that there has been no point in making a system for it.
 
Ok, good
 
12:09 AM
@BrianH I was explicitly not talking about me, but about the oft-strained hypothetic "newbies".
 
I work with Spring at work
It kills the entire 'static typing' idea
 
There are a lot of tools that are only necessary when you have an inflexible base system.
 
Yeah
 
Do we have a meaning for get-word!s in a Needs header already?
 
@earl do you realize that most new programmers initially start working with languages that don't have modules?
@earl not yet. Ideas?
Nor for issues, or refinements.
Or even lit-words.
We could piss off @HostileFork and make /only a Needs keyword :)
 
12:13 AM
@BrianH Yes.
I hold a strong belief that most catering to "newbies" is overly naive.
 
@earl let's try to do a cleaner job of retrofitting a module system than those other guys.
 
Newbies may be confused by variables that don't start with $ if they're coming from PHP. Clearly, we should make all words that can be variables start with $.
 
@Sgeo you are confusing surface stuff with major semantics. We have enough differences in major semantics, but we're trying to at least keep the initial learning curve somewhat shallow. To do otherwise is to ensure our obscurity.
It's kind of amazing how much we have to do to make Rebol pretend to be a programming language, in any normal sense.
I mean already, in Rebol. Not talking about the todo list :(
 
Hmm, thinking about it, I might have to retract that earlier "Yes".
It's quite conceivable that these days most programmers actually start out working with languages with modules.
 
But do any of them start in a language with a good module system?
 
12:28 AM
Some of them do. But that's not the main point here :)
 
my god I hate the immediacy of SO chat. if you're not there at the precise minute a discussion fits in your screen, you are left out of it completely.... its like facebook... a chat for ADD... must be why its trendy.
 
@moliad At least you can read logs
 
you almost feel like you have to leave the app open all the time, just in case, but then you get sucked into the 90% which doesn't interest or is a bit OT.
 
So you hate talking to other people over coffee as well?
 
@Sgeo yeah, but just trying to find a post a day earlier can be madening.
 
12:30 AM
Different media for different purposes. If you don't like to chat, then don't chat. We have a mailing list as well.
 
I love speaking over coffee... only when I'm at the office, I can't stay in the cafeteria for 8 hours ;-)
 
@moliad and I thought you were one of the guys refusing to use this chat too!
 
thing is a lot of dramatic discussion is taking place here . its almost impossible to keep up because its a bit spaghetti.
the chat engine is great, it just really needs threads or groups.
 
@earl most programmers now start with languages that have had multiple disparate module systems retrofitted on to them (Javascript), or something weird that they call modules but really aren't, or both (Ruby). People learn about modules in classes, if they take them. But some of the retrofits are stabilizing, so maybe in 10 years that will be true. One can hope :)
 
Maybe our definition of "programmer" might also differ :)
 
12:34 AM
@moliad not really, this is supposed to be a single R3 development chat room like a single altme channel
 
basically the problem is I'd like to be here more, but I really get sucked in for too much time.<end of mini-rant>
 
I know guys who have been programming professionally since they were in primary school, and only took classes later. It's a weird field.
 
@GrahamChiu nah, its like 20 channels mixed into one.
gtg now... be back tomorrow.
 
@moliad And the engine even has groups (called rooms), we just have to buy out StackExchange so that we can host it on our own and use as many rooms as we want!
@BrianH Yeah, that's the interesting question. I think Java and Python are relatively typical first teaching languages these days.
 
At present there are not enough regulars to sustain more than one room
 
12:36 AM
I leave it open in the background, or catch up in logs when I can. So remember to @ me if you want to get my attention.
 
but the interface doesn't make using multiple rooms very practicle... its almost all there... I'm sure that as it gets more use, they'll realize this and eventually add some for of topics of discussion within a room.
 
@moliad Did you try it? When you are in multiple rooms, you get an activity-coloured sidebar thing.
 
there is a plan to move the chat to rebol.net once we've reorganised things
we can get OS versions of this chat system
 
Only that it'd need someone to write a nice chat first :)
 
no need to buyout anyone
 
12:41 AM
@GrahamChiu Links handy? (Off the top of my head I only remember Discourse, which is something quite different.)
 
13
Q: I'm cloning the StackExchange chat UI - yay or boo?

Stefano PalazzoI'm working on a clone of the Stack Exchange chat. Many of the UI aspects of the SE chat are cloned entirely. The back-end, I'm guessing, is very different. While I don't, of course, use a single line of code from Stack Exchange, and I know there are no legal problems in what I'm doing, I want t...

 
@GrahamChiu No code, afaics?
 
github.com/stackchat
that's another one
 
Doesn't seem like something really working either.
Ah, maybe inside the "legacy" folder. 2 years dormant, though.
 
Hi @GrahamChiu is it possible to fix the {Redirect to a protocol different from HTTP not supported} error on the bot welcome msg? I'm still tied up for a few days before I can get back into updating the version on the new server.
General FYI - I don't usually check messages on Skype as I don't leave it running
 
12:50 AM
@johnk Yes, just need a few minutes to do so.
it is a result of a new parse rule to grab the username :(
 
@GrahamChiu thanks :-) Over the next 2 weeks I should have a bit more time to work on the bot
 
Just got tied up with the rebol.net wiki port
 
@GrahamChiu Yeah, I saw. It will be good to get that into a system where we can update it easily
 
1:42 AM
@rebolbot
foo: []
do [ do [ append foo 5]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> foo: [] do [do [append foo 5]]
== [5]
 
@RebolBot
foo: []
use [foo] [do [ do [ append foo 5]]]
probe foo
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
>> foo: [] use [foo] [do [do [append foo 5]]] probe foo
*** ERROR
** Script error: append does not allow none! for its series argument
** Where: do do -apply- apply use
** Near: do [append foo 5]
 
Going to try to translate a Rebol example into a Lispy syntax
To show off to some people who know Lisp how scoping... kind of could work
Don't know enough about Rebol to say how it does, but I'm sure Rebol could be coerced into doing it
 
2:08 AM
@RebolBot
use [foo] [foo: [] do [ do [ append foo 5 ] ] probe foo]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> use [foo] [foo: [] do [do [append foo 5]] probe foo]
[5]
== [5]
 
But use goes inside nested blocks, right?
Flipping each foo that it sees into the new environment that it creates
 
@Sgeo I'm always getting confused with this stuff. But the idea of use is to declare a new context which hides outer definitions for what you pass in the first block, while inheriting the existing context for everything else, um, I think.
 
@Sgeo Yes.
 
@HostileFork Can you elaborate on that?
 
2:17 AM
@RebolBot
foo: 5 bar: 10
use [foo] [print ["inside, foo is" foo "and bar is" bar] foo: 50 bar: 100]
print ["afterward, foo is" foo "and bar is" bar]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> foo: 5 bar: 10 use [foo] [print ["inside, foo is" foo "and bar is" bar] foo: 50 bar: 100] print ["afterward, foo is" foo "and bar is" bar]
inside, foo is none and bar is 10
afterward, foo is 5 and bar is 100
 
2:37 AM
I know someone made a list comprenehsion dialect for Rebol, but it uses too many words and kind of sucks >.>
I should write my own
I don't want it to look like Python, I want it to look like Haskell
 
@Sgeo Which one you talking about?
 
list [[a * b] for a in [1 2 3] for b in [4 5 6] where [even? a * b]]
Too many fors
Why not a: [1 2 3] b: [4 5 6]
Although would still want a way to do simple bindings, hmm
Parens to evaluate code
list [a: [1 2 3] (b: a + 1) (where [b < 2])]
Oh, I need a result, hmm
 
Yeah, we do wind up with times when people are trying to show that Rebol could get very verbose. Our IF could have a THEN and ELSE, and it's sometimes instructive to show people that's possible with dialecting. The DO dialect isn't everyone's cup of tea.
 
(And where is merely a function, returning [none] if its argument evaluates to true, and [] if its argument evaluates to false)
 
IF [(x = 2) THEN [print "X is two"] ELSE [print "X is not two."]] People are tempted to try that sort of thing at the beginning.
 
2:44 AM
I guess it should be (where b < 2)
I wonder how general this could be made.
Doubt it could generalize to all monads without real continuations...
Actually, hmm, why not
 
@Sgeo Something interesting you haven't seen possibly is DO/NEXT
 
@HostileFork Reminds me of Forth's IF ... ELSE ... THEN, which feels like a hack to make a semi-normal conditional construct
(That was to that IF THEN ELSE)
Although Factor's more natural if is... hard to read imo
 
@RebolBot
print do/next [1 + 2 3 + 4 5 + 6] 'pos
probe pos
print do/next pos 'pos
probe pos
print do/next pos 'pos
probe pos
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print do/next [1 + 2 3 + 4 5 + 6] 'pos probe pos print do/next pos 'pos probe pos print do/next pos 'pos probe pos
3
[3 + 4 5 + 6]
7
[5 + 6]
11
[]
== []
 
pos?
 
2:50 AM
@Sgeo Although the parse dialect makes you use parentheses around expressions, with DO/NEXT you can leverage the DO dialect without having to reinvent its arity logic.
"Position"
 
@rebolbot do help do/next
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> help do/next
USAGE:
    DO/NEXT value /args arg /next var

DESCRIPTION:
    Evaluates a block, file, URL, function, word, or any other value.
    DO/NEXT is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value -- Normally a file name, URL, or block (any-type!)

REFINEMENTS:
    /args -- If value is a script, this will set its system/script/args
        arg -- Args passed to a script (normally a string)
    /next -- Do next expression only, return it, update block variable
 
Incidentally, help is ugly. It should be help 'do/next
>.>
Or help :do/next
"Update block variable"
 
make error! [
code: 513
type: 'Access
id: 'Protocol
arg1: {Redirect to a protocol different from HTTP not supported}
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: none
where: none
]
@PeterHon Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ.
 
@Sgeo Well, I believe help should return structure not text.
 
2:52 AM
Can it be updated to a prior position?
 
@Sgeo Nope, it uses the DO engine's logic to see how many parameters should be in the next fully completed expression, and then gives you the position after those symbols have been consumed.
 
@RebolBot
code: [1 + 2 3 + 4]
do/next code 'pos
probe code
probe head code
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> code: [1 + 2 3 + 4] do/next code 'pos probe code probe head code
[1 + 2 3 + 4]
[1 + 2 3 + 4]
== [1 + 2 3 + 4]
 
Oh, I guess it doesn't mutate the argument block?
 
Nope.
 
2:53 AM
Oh, derp
pos contains the block
@RebolBot
code: [1 + 2 3 + 4]
do/next code 'pos
probe pos
probe head pos
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> code: [1 + 2 3 + 4] do/next code 'pos probe pos probe head pos
[3 + 4]
[1 + 2 3 + 4]
== [1 + 2 3 + 4]
 
pos and code are just position pointers into the block, which hold it alive for the garbage collector.
A block and an integer, really.
 
...I know how I want list to work, thank tiy
you
Wait, no... hmm
 
@RebolBot
stuff: [A B C]
pos: skip stuff 2
probe pos
take back tail stuff
probe pos
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> stuff: [A B C] pos: skip stuff 2 probe pos take back tail stuff probe pos
[C]
[]
== []
 
2:56 AM
Ok, my "brilliant" idea would have ended up looking like this bit of lunacy
list [c: [1 2 3] c: c ...]
(... representing elided parts)
Wait, that wouldn't work
arglefarbnle
When I wanted to design an actually "good" monad thing for Clojure, I ended up wanting some kind of bizarre hybrid between lexically-scoped and dynamically-scoped variables
Wonder if it could be done in Rebol
 
@Sgeo I think that @BrianH, @ladislav, @DocKimbel, @earl are going to probably be your best bets for answering general questions about such things.
We really don't have a lot of literature on the philosophy of Rebol dialect design. I started something: Rebol Dialect Design Considerations. But we may need to wait for the new Wiki before any of these essays get prioritized enough to have people throw in more effort.
As much as I like Wikipedia, I hate the mediaWiki markup language. Markdown is lots better. Almost anything is better, actually.
Heck, HTML is probably better.
It is not too surprising that Rebol people weren't crazy about using MediaWiki for institutional knowledge.
 
3:12 AM
"The following is also legitimate Rebol, and far more inviting to type in and read:"
It totally contradicts the earlier point about not using words as strings
 
@Sgeo Well, it's about tradeoffs. Words are strings, but they're not sentences.
There are sometimes limits on what allowed characters are. In words, especially in R3, we have Unicode and that should be able to handle nearly any legal name.
 
@onetom The GitHub repo is still the latest, until Adrian releases his Sublime-specific version. (sorry, it's a git repo...)
 
But the question of what's good or bad style is not understood as well as one might wish, I believe in part because a lot of people found themselves comfortable using Rebol out of the box with DO and PARSE and didn't see the need to push the limits too much beyond that in terms of peer review.
 
Suppose I have a dialect that is typically used with alternating set-word!s and expressions. Is there a set-word! that would be reasonable to use if someone didn't feel a need to assign?
 
@RebolBot do first to-string #asd123
 
3:23 AM
Oh, and VID I guess would be the big #3 there. I don't mention it because when I started programming in Rebol everyone was saying "Rebol 3 was the big new thing" and I was going to wait for the new thing
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> first to-string #asd123
== #"#"
 
@rgchris just installed yours under sublime 3 last nite together w the blackboard theme
 
@Sgeo done
 
@RebolBot do probe type? quote _:
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> probe type? quote _:
set-word!
== set-word!
 
3:25 AM
There we go, thanks
 
@Sgeo There's not a technical reason that set-words couldn't be examined for their literal text in a dialect, the way that words like skip or thru or to are looked for in dialects. If it's your dialect, it's your rules. skip: or :thru or 'to don't have to mean anything in particular
 
Was going to do first [_:] or something that insane
@HostileFork I was thinking more 'good design' reasons
And _: wouldn't be scanned for, just be a convenient set-word! for people to use when they don't want to bother with an assignment
 
@Sgeo Oh, on that point, there are two different ways to specify the quoting of parameters, and there's a subtlety to why there are two ways. You were complaining about HELP but it is a DO dialect feature and it's there.
 
@RebolBot do probe type? first [_:] ; this is what i was using in r2 before...
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> probe type? first [_:]
set-word!
== set-word!
 
3:26 AM
Because with what I'm envisioning, every thing would need to be some assignment :/
 
5
Q: Why doesn't Rebol 3 honor quoted function parameters that are parenthesized?

HostileForkThe DO dialect uses series of category PAREN! for precedence, and will usually boil away the underlying parentheses structure prior to invoking a function. However, it used to be possible in Rebol 2 to specify in a function's definition that you wanted it to suppress evaluation of parentheses at...

 
list [a: [1 2 3] b: [4 5 6] _: comment "I don't care about the assignment I just want the action" [none none none]] [a + b]
 
@Sgeo Well, why use a set-word then?
Pick some reserved word
 
Why should any word be reserved, though?
 
list [a: [1 2 3] b: [4 5 6] only [none none none]] [a + b]
That's an in-joke.
@Sgeo Well, because dialects reserve words. The thing that worries me is that I think we need to set good precedent for having the dialog remap terms, so you could for instance be writing in Chinese or Spanish or something and have the dialect use those words. We need to sort out how by setting a good example.
There used to be a feature called ALIAS for making different words match equality, but it was deemed to be broken, and is kind of obviously not the right way of going about that.
 
3:32 AM
@Sgeo "Why should any word be reserved, though?" --> because you don't want to treat it like other words, because it's special in your context, so you reserve it...
 
But I don't need any special words in my dialect
 
^== dialog/dialect ==^
 
It would get along just fine with _: and with a pure when function
(As in, when would just be a function defined independently of the dialect
 
@Sgeo doesn't read very naturally...
 
@Sgeo Well, you're treading exactly the territory I had hoped would be analyzed in that dialect design considerations article, but no one really added to it. We should have a good, reasoned, salient answer to this and many more dialect design questions.
 
3:34 AM
@HostileFork which article?
 
We shouldn't have to be pondering the rationale for why to do something or not every time, reinventing the wheel of argumentation.
 
and how are you pulling out these stackoverflow quotations so quickly?
 
27 mins ago, by HostileFork
We really don't have a lot of literature on the philosophy of Rebol dialect design. I started something: Rebol Dialect Design Considerations. But we may need to wait for the new Wiki before any of these essays get prioritized enough to have people throw in more effort.
 
We could at least get some ideas off of similar documents for Lisp macros?
 
@onetom You mean like that? It's just the way Stack shows permalinks. You take the permalink from the quote (drop down triangle) and just paste it as the URL. So nothing but http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/9813403#9813403 in that case.
 
3:36 AM
i see
 
Although the CL LOOP macro does not strike me as particularly good design, although I'm sure CLers would disagree
 
You click on the time (e.g. 27 mins ago above) and that will take you to it in context.
 
I don't know what REBOLers would make of LOOP
 
@onetom Hopefully not too terrible...
@BrianH Not often you have an American use the term 'primary school'—did I miss something?
 
@rgchris no, it's very nice actually. but my bug question is how can we make it work with any other color theme? as i saw we should name the syntax elements as other languages do... which is a bit confusing
guys, i have a question regarding Trello
 
3:39 AM
@Sgeo Every now and again we hear about a fabled SLICE or something, a very general dialect. Sometimes it winds up conflated in an irritable argument for why there is no SUBSTRING where the belief is that what people who want Substring really want is Slice.
 
@rgchris I was talking to @earl, who's in Europe :)
 
You have to set up the extra datatypes. I didn't map all the types to existing Textmate types.
Ah, ok—not often I hear the term for non-Scots either...
 
@RebolBot
? do/next
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> ? do/next
USAGE:
    DO/NEXT value /args arg /next var

DESCRIPTION:
    Evaluates a block, file, URL, function, word, or any other value.
    DO/NEXT is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value -- Normally a file name, URL, or block (any-type!)

REFINEMENTS:
    /args -- If value is a script, this will set its system/script/args
        arg -- Args passed to a script (normally a string)
    /next -- Do next expression only, return it, update block variable
 
@onetom What's the Q
 
3:40 AM
all i see in trello is very vague titles, describing broad scopes and a couple of ppl assigned. i think it's not very useful that way. i would expect more transparency otherwise how could i join?
 
Is the help for do/next correct? It's exactly the same as for do
 
@Sgeo But that LOOP macro is not, presumably, the pattern we would be following. :-)
@onetom What's your account?
 
i have no clue what is going on w the sublime code coloring. there is no acceptance criteria, no pointers on what is it trying to solve, etc
@HostileFork hermantamas at gmail
 
@onetom Added. You can try tinkering a bit with it, and given its groupware/wiki nature we are still looking for quite how to use it effectively. Certainly we don't know what we're doing yet, but from some of the same people who brought you StackOverflow :-)
It's at least sort of fun. I'm finding it pretty easy to use for personal task lists
You should be automatically added to any other Rebol boards now that you're in the system, but I agree it would be nice to be able to request to join from inside.
 
@HostileFork i know trello, but as i said on carl's blog i also used pivotaltracker specifically for sw development and that offered a very effective usage pattern
 
3:46 AM
@Sgeo actually, IIRC most of the CL community doesn't think their LOOP is particularly good design either. Many do like its power though.
 
@HostileFork i dont seem to have edit rights still
 
@Adrian we don't have separate help for a particular refinement. So yes, it's correct, but perhaps too broad.
 
@onetom Hm. Refresh, reload, log in or out? You are a "Normal" user, that should allow full editing but not adding/removing users. (There's only two levels we have in the free version, Normal and Admin.)
 
i cant comment on that sublime card
but i see myself as a member of the board now
gotta go
 
@onetom Added you to the card, so you're definitely there...
Perhaps all Stackoverflow sites (built with .NET on the backend, AFAIK) have latency in these account credentials!
 
3:50 AM
@Sgeo see this: issue.cc/r3/884 - it's a proposal to change FOR so it will be more like a general loop.
 
"; Example semantic design, would need to be native because of #539"
What's 539?
 
@Sgeo We are-- in theory-- about to switch over to GitHub tracker issues with a big database upload. The trick with such things is that we are trying to make some political decisions and everyone has to be on board to avoid fragmentation. Keeping chaos under control.
 
Basically, there was a feature in R2 that made it possible to make your own control functions in R2, though it wasn't very well done. In R3, functions are different, so it doesn't have that feature or anything like it. Carl has made it clear that we won't be getting the feature the same way, and good riddance, but in the meantime we don't have a corresponding feature that serves the same purpose. So, a whole class of control functions currently have to be done in native code.
Which speeds everything up in some cases, but that benefit isn't worth the annoyance for the average user.
 
o.O what class of control functions?
Oh
We should just implement first-class continuations and be done with it >.>
 
Functions that get passed a block of code that they evaluate (usually by passing to DO), catch calls to RETURN or EXIT. The feature is a way to let the function pass these through to the outer function call.
 
3:59 AM
It can't do its own EXIT on receiving an EXIT?
 
In R2, some of the control functions (notably several of the loops) were implemented in Rebol itself, usually calling other loop functions. But if the calling function passes a body block that contains a RETURN call, that call would normally return from the loop function itself, rather than the function that provided the code body as you'd expect. However, there was a misnamed [throw] attribute that let them not catch RETURN or EXIT, which sort of solved the problem.
In R3, every loop function was made native, and the method of calling functions is totally different, so the feature went away. As a side effect, R3 loops were much faster, and you optimize the code completely differently. It wasn't until we started adding back affected functions that the feature being missing started being a problem.
Now, the 539 bug affects USE, FIND-ALL, the revamped REWORD, and the above linked FOR replacement. But because of that the above linked FOR replacement and the REWORD revamp were written with conversion to native code in mind. Still, I'd really like 539 solved.
 
24 hours ago, by rgchris
When your router starts to make a fizzling noise, that's a bad thing, right?
 
@HostileFork still can't comment. this must be some board/lane setting...
 
@rgchris Power block making any noise or just router?
 
@HostileFork Just router.
Disclosure, it's an old router and I took the opportunity to replace it.
 
4:09 AM
@Sgeo Rebol 1 had first-class continuations, but it has some issues. See github.com/akavel/sherman for more
 
The main reason 539 was a massive problem in the old days was that people couldn't write native code contributions, they could only contribute or write Rebol code, so this meant that a whole class of control functions just caught RETURN and EXIT no matter what. Once Rebol became open source, and fairly simple clean source at that, it became less of a problem. However, there are still people who don't want to write C code (see: support for Red), so 539 is still somewhat of an issue.
 
Probably for the best. If you have a 9v/5v DC electronic device that has started to make noise and it doesn't have any speakers in it, then it's probably not doing well. But you could open it up pull the board and listen, that's not very dangerous. Always good for the education I think.
 
Maybe I don't like the thought of certain functions that don't depend on hardware stuff not being writable in Rebol
 
@Sgeo It's Turing Complete. So anything is writable. Just not necessarily fast or necessarily as literate as one might like. :-) But it's nice to have the limits of the system examined, if you wanted to try a blog and show some limit or another.
 
@Sgeo many agree with you, myself included. I don't mind writing C code, but this is a case where the reason is dumb.
And since I wrote all of the affected functions that are included in R3 already, I'm extra annoyed.
Still, my CL is rusty, so I'm curious as to how issue.cc/r3/884 compares to CL's LOOP. Any takers?
 
4:19 AM
@HostileFork I'll perhaps bring it with me. (or not).
 
@BrianH Doesn't use magic keywords to delimit things, doesn't have a fixed set of 'accumulating' keywords... it seems sane
Here is a LOOP example
(loop for i in *random*
counting (evenp i) into evens
counting (oddp i) into odds
summing i into total
maximizing i into max
minimizing i into min
finally (return (list min max total evens odds)))
 
Yeah, that's as bad as I remembered. I was hoping I was just remembering it as worse than it was.
 
@rgchris There might seem to not be a lot to learn from dismantling broken electronics, now that everything is so heavily integrated and you open something up and there's maybe a motor and a single chip. Yet I've learned to be horrified at even basic choices like how to assemble the devices, what they'll just glue on or twist together. Hardware design these days is mostly a crime against sensible design, as an almost complete parallel to what happened to software.
 
"Bunch of Cowboys"
 
Although it occurs to me...
Would be convenient to be able to have several concurrent collect/keeps
Would allow for easy and sane functionality similar to what that LOOP does
....oh, imperative appending to blocks. I forgot that that was a thing
 
4:33 AM
The trick is to make something in Rebol that can run concurrently without stepping on its fellows' toes, as it were. And Rebol is a very modifying language. But we're good at dialects, and it's a very easy-to-extend language (particularly the DO dialect), so it's doable in theory. You might need a bit of native support for the concurrent stuff though, to make it actually concurrent.
A lot of that data-parallel stuff makes more sense in a compiled language. Without a compiler, it's just a limited, awkward, usually slower substitute for an imperative loop. You have to plan the dialect really well to get the benefit of parallelism, in particular making it work on a large enough set of data to make up for the dialect processing overhead.
 
make error! [
code: 513
type: 'Access
id: 'Protocol
arg1: {Redirect to a protocol different from HTTP not supported}
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: none
where: none
]
@Zirak Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ.
 
@Zirak Ninjanium is a critical reagent to Rebol and Red. Heard of them?
 
4:50 AM
You know what I would like? If foo/x and foo/x could be different depending on the context that /x belonged in
Same to how x foo can have different meanings depending on x's context
 
@Sgeo Hrrrm, well, um.
@RebolBot
foo: quote adjust/(your set)/I'm/not/your/teacher
length? foo
probe second foo
 
I think it would improve modularity. Two separate modules could add /blah to things without colliding
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> foo: quote adjust/(your set)/I'm/not/your/teacher length? foo probe second foo
(your set)
== (your set)
 
@rebolbot
xs: collect [keep use [x] [x] keep use [x] [x]] probe xs
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> xs: collect [keep use [x] [x] keep use [x] [x]] probe xs
[none none]
== [none none]
 
4:56 AM
@rebolbot
xs: collect [keep use [x] ['x] keep use [x] ['x]] probe xs
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> xs: collect [keep use [x] ['x] keep use [x] ['x]] probe xs
[x x]
== [x x]
 
@rebolbot
xs: collect [keep use [x] [x] keep use [x] [x]]
probe xs
probe first xs = second xs
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-cannot-use.html
>> xs: collect [keep use [x] [x] keep use [x] [x]] probe xs probe first xs = second xs
[none none]
*** ERROR
** Script error: cannot use pick on logic! value
** Where: first
** Near: first xs = second xs
 
@Sgeo Well I look at that from internationalization. I want foo/x and foo/汉语/漢語 to be able to be equivalent. And I'm trying to wrap my head about how we can do that with dialects and refinements and everything. To me it's about making a great programming tool for kids. Rebol isn't the future, AIs aren't going to use something so awkward. :-)
 
@HostileFork huh, wonder why it logged me here...I was poking around the events.
 
4:59 AM
@Sgeo That's an op! usage issue, can fix with (first xs) = (second xs) or using the word equivalent: equal? first xs second xs
 
@Zirak Well, it showed you as appearing in the room. I've had this discussion with the admins about what counts as lurking and if you should get notifications or show up...they say there's a way to view the logs without appearing in the sidebar. My request was shot down.
 
@rebolbot
xs: collect [keep use [x] [x] keep use [x] [x]]
probe xs
probe equal? first xs second xs
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> xs: collect [keep use [x] [x] keep use [x] [x]] probe xs probe equal? first xs second xs
[none none]
true
== true
 
-6
Q: Disable pinging chat lurkers with inbox notifications unless they speak in the room

HostileForkUnless you post a message in a chat room other members of the room should not be able to ping your inbox. Otherwise you end up in a situation where you can come back to multiple inbox notices for a room you were just lurking in. Chat room lurking is a way of checking out if one is interested in ...

 
...What do I put instead of equal? to get false?
 
5:00 AM
@Zirak Wow, I'm even more shot down than I was last checked. At -6
 
@Sgeo not-equal? or not equal?
 
@Zirak On the plus side, perhaps you'd like to learn something new and cool? :-)
 
No, as in, to show that they're different x'es. Unless they are the same and I got use wrong
 
@HostileFork haha, actively campaigning. Thanks, I've already purchased a pack and use it at home
 
They have different contexts don't they?
 
5:02 AM
Ah— same? I think...
 
@rebolbot
xs: collect [keep use [x] [x] keep use [x] [x]]
probe xs
probe same? first xs second xs
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> xs: collect [keep use [x] [x] keep use [x] [x]] probe xs probe same? first xs second xs
[none none]
true
== true
 
@Zirak We are campaigning, because we have something rather impressive. And it requires no installation. First time isn't just free, it's probably under a meg. A language from the Amiga era and the bit-twiddling hackers coming to attack the bloated insanity of the modern world! rebolsource.net
 
oh oops 'x not x
 
Right.
 
5:04 AM
@rebolbot
xs: collect [keep use [x] ['x] keep use [x] ['x]]
probe xs
probe same? first xs second xs
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> xs: collect [keep use [x] ['x] keep use [x] ['x]] probe xs probe same? first xs second xs
[x x]
false
== false
 
@RebolBot
print {And, by the way {@Zirak}, don't you think asymmetric string delimiters have "less" requirements for 'escaping...}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {And, by the way {@Zirak}, don't you think asymmetric string delimiters have "less" requirements for 'escaping...}
And, by the way {@Zirak}, don't you think asymmetric string delimiters have "less" requirements for 'escaping...
 
@rebolbot
xs: collect [keep use [/x] [quote /x] keep use [/x] [quote /x]]
probe xs
probe same? first xs second xs
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> xs: collect [keep use [/x] [quote /x] keep use [/x] [quote /x]] probe xs probe same? first xs second xs
[/x /x]
false
== false
 
5:05 AM
@RebolBot
print copy/part to string! read hostilefork.com 50
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print copy/part to string! read hostilefork.com 50
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Trans
 
@rebolbot
xs: collect [keep quote /x keep quote /x]
probe xs
probe same? first xs second xs
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> xs: collect [keep quote /x keep quote /x] probe xs probe same? first xs second xs
[/x /x]
true
== true
 
@Zirak we do have something that's a bit addictive here.
 
@HostileFork I've twiddled around with Rebol, it does look like a neat language
I've got the sales pitch
 
5:06 AM
Sorry for the spamminess
 
@Zirak Well we've only had six months since the open sourcing, and Red is set to leapfrog it.
But we're unifying them as well as we can
@Sgeo The event @Zirak speaks of is probably our upcoming split to two channels, invite-only for dev chat, and then general Q&A chat and discussion
I think we're about ready
And it will reduce the crosstalk
@Sgeo Speaking of which, have you actually downloaded an interpreter, or do you just talk to RebolBot? :-)
Trust our binaries. We're not going to install alien viruses on your computer, of course.
Why would we lie? We're not aliens! Haha! No of course, that would be silly.
Q: What is an Orbital Mind Control Laser?
A: There is no such thing as an Orbital Mind Control Laser.

Q: How does the Orbital Mind Control Laser work?
A: There is no such thing as an Orbital Mind Control Laser.

Q: Are Orbital Mind Control Lasers dangerous?
A: If there were Orbital Mind Control Lasers they would pose absolutely no threat to anyone.
 
I do have an interpreter, but the rebol.com one. Also, I don't think it likes multiline stuff at the REPL so much
I should go to sleep soon
 
@Sgeo The Rebol 3 alphas don't have multiline REPLs, sadly.
And grab your build from rebolsource.net
 
@Sgeo Yeah don't use the rebol.com one
We'll have that updated in short time, in theory
 
@rgchris wow, you know father ted! :) awesome. i don't have many friends who heard about it
 
5:21 AM
@onetom I remember series one when it originally aired :)
 
Besides any bugs fixed for that release, we just can't do any kind of bug regression analysis. Because it predates the code given to us as open source we can't even use git-bisect... so please do not use the rebol.com binaries
 
@onetom I try hard not to quote it in any given situation, hard though that is.
 
@johnk I've updated my bot to use a patched version of prot-http so hopefully these redirect error messages will vanish
Just spent a few hours updating 2 laptops and 1 ipad for an elderly aunty so no work got done
@rebolbot present
 
@GrahamChiu GrahamChiu rgchris HostileFork onetom Sgeo Zirak BrianH Adrian earl johnk ingo pekr Respectech graph Erick HuayinWang
 
@HostileFork thanks for that link. I've had a hell of a time doing overdue updates for the last 3 weeks. That might have helped, and will even more likely help in the future.
 
5:36 AM
@BrianH Got it from @earl, nice feature.
Hadn't heard of it before that
 
@HostileFork makes sense, I got most of my early git education from earl. And the rest in the last 3 weeks.
 
@BrianH As counterintuitive as it might seem, I think Rebol's health may be increased by having Rebol people busy with jobs and engaging the world as it is. It's like this chat, or GitHub, or Trello... as painful as the transition is for some, you see new ideas. And I wish Rebolers would embrace the good bits and do awesome things... RebolBot is a great idea.
Navel-gazing is nice, if you like to gaze upon your navel. But there's some other stuff if you look up. :-)
 
@HostileFork well, I've found that a little cross-propagation can be a good thing. Like your new FUNCTION, I got that from Ruby, some object-functional language (the /with option), and community feedback. Ruby is a great source of ideas, because they've made so many horrible mistakes and their plight helps you know what not to do. They did some good stuff too, and that can help almost as much.
 
@BrianH Rebol had a world-takeover philosophy at one point, where everything was full stack Rebol. I think we will get farther embracing a protocol here and there, and living in a homogeneous system. It will be more successful, I think.
StackOverflow is kind of funny, they basically looked at "ExpertSexChange.com" and said "Hey, this is a great idea. Except for all the parts where it sucks, including the name. What if we did the same thing...except throwing out every bad idea?"
 
@HostileFork only embedded systems people do the full stack now, and even then they often interact with other devices that use different stacks. Look at R3: It's an OS. It has drivers, tasks, it's extensible, it's obviously designed to be an operating system. And it comes with some nice programming languages too, bonus!
 
5:48 AM
@BrianH Doing some Windows programming now, and it's kind of hilarious, signing kernel mode components...the variance of platforms...
Poor Microsoft. Cool new ideas making $0, horrible legacy.
 
@HostileFork and I'm programming Ruby and Javascript on a Mac now. It's opposite day!
Some of the new/legacy ideas seem to be doing well. I hear Office365 is a huge success.
 
Well it's fashionable to bash on Microsoft, but if you want more than a "Hello World" presentation then Office has been nailing it for years. The fact is that most people don't do that much work. They just read things, and send back decisions. You can do that on a TTY
The pressure is how much can be done in a web browser by someone eating a muffin and having a latte... if your job isn't really doing anything, then who cares if SolidWorks will run on your machine or not?
You don't do anything. Who cares.
The quality of the coffee, the muffin, and how the machine fits in your messenger bag... THAT is important.
And actually, perhaps we at some point do need to stop caring so much about getting work done. Maybe we should be talking about the muffin and the coffee, and if the logo on the laptop should be illuminated or a half inch higher or lower. This is conversation.
 
I almost never use office apps, but for the last several years I have been using Office 2007 and 2010, and they were quite decent. I tried to use LibreOffice on a Mac, and it was just painful, not only going back to the menus, but even those they don't do as well as Office 2003 did. I felt embarrassed to have it installed. Don't remember LO being that bad on Windows or Linux.
 
@BrianH I've just become a luddite of a sort, we all pick where to stop. When I last saw RMS at a conference he was still reading his mail in PINE. I'm sort of losing focus on where my limits are of feeling comfortable with a toolset
For instance: I use gmail but still give out my address as brian@hostilefork.com. But I don't care enough to get it to reply to that, so it goes to hostilefork@gmail.com. I don't trust the DNS, or GoDaddy, and I'd probably trust the random Google employee more than any random person from ICANN or GoDaddy.
 
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