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1:13 AM
@rebolbot present
 
@GrahamChiu GrahamChiu earl rgchris HostileFork BrianH BenjaminGruenbaum pekr Sgeo Henrik Respectech CCInc HuayinWang
 
1:27 AM
read/part console:// 1 isn't working as I was hoping it would
..I should switch to rebolsource.net right now
 
 
1 hour later…
2:41 AM
Hmm. context doesn't do nested blocks
I don't think there's a right answer for whether or not context should look inside nested blocks
Not looking inside nested blocks means things like doing sets in if doesn't really work. But looking inside nested blocks make things behave oddly in a number of circumstances, such as nested contexts
@rebolbot do a: 5 context [if 0 < 1 [a: 6] print a] print a
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> a: 5 context [if 0 < 1 [a: 6] print a] print a
6
6
 
That kind of sucks, but avoiding that circumstance by looking deep could be worse
@rebolbot do do func [a b] [a + b] 5 6
 
@Sgeo context is just a convenience wrapper for make object!, so it has the same restrictions. One of those is that only the top level is scanned for set-words. Same goes for all other object-like types, like module.
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do func [a b] [a + b] 5 6
== 11
 
How does that work? How many arguments does do take?
 
2:52 AM
@rebolbot
a: 0 use [ a ][ a: 5 print a ] print a
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> a: 0 use [a] [a: 5 print a] print a
5
0
 
@Sgeo do takes one argument, but if you do a function type it does a redo, which grabs the rest of the function arguments. There was a big discussion about this when we found this out.
 
How does the redo work? Can I tap into it easily? (I could possibly tap into it anyway with a bit of cheating)
 
Actually, we found that the method of tapping into it, return/redo, is actually a bad idea that we are going to remove.
 
Aww, but horrible hacks that allow for varargs are fun
!
 
2:56 AM
@Sgeo varargs are an absolutely horrible idea for a Rebol-like language. Avoid doing them at all costs.
That is why we're removing return/redo, once we get to beta.
 
Does this mean getting rid of do's ability to evaluate an argument? Or maybe having do have a refinement like this:
 
@BrianH Did I miss the community discussion where this was agreed?
 
do/func func [a b] [a + b] [5 6]
This way do/func has two arguments, a function and a block containing arguments to the function
Oh, apply already exists
 
@GrahamChiu no, you missed the community discussion getting put on hold because I had to take a break.
 
I guess this means do's function evaluating ability will be removed?
 
2:58 AM
@Sgeo no, do has constraints that make redos predictable by the caller. So it's safe for do, but not otherwise.
 
@BrianH I ask because as of yet, we have not had the discussion with conclusion on how anything gets agreed.
 
@GrahamChiu but we came to a consensus in the CureCode tickets.
 
@BrianH Unless I can do some kind of horrible thing?
 
@GrahamChiu that is a discussion that definitely got put on hold, because the way that things got agreed was that we found consensus through argument, and I was the moderator of those arguments, and I took two or so months off to switch jobs. So while this particular argument was resolved, not many since then have been.
 
@RebolBot
varfunc: func [n] [either n < 0 [func [a] [a + 1]] [func [a b] [a + b]]]
print do varfunc -1 5
print do varfunc 1 2 3
 
3:01 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> varfunc: func [n] [either n < 0 [func [a] [a + 1]] [func [a b] [a + b]]] print do varfunc -1 5 print do varfunc 1 2 3
6
5
 
Varargs!
 
This search sucks .. can't find it here
 
Requires prefixing the vararg using function with do, but still.... varargs!
 
@Sgeo not really because you're creating a new function each time
 
That may be how it works physically, but the effect is pretty much the same
 
3:03 AM
we have refinements if we want more arguments
@RebolBot do words-of now
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-cannot-use.html
>> words-of now
*** ERROR
** Script error: cannot use reflect on date! value
** Where: reflect words-of
** Near: reflect :value 'words
 
Yes, I know that refinements are the decent way to do things
But indecency can be fun!
 
@RebolBot do words-of :now
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> words-of :now
== [/year /month /day /time /zone /date /weekday /yearday /precise /utc]
 
Anyway, why does do get to be magic?
 
3:06 AM
OK, here is the main problem. Rebol's DO dialect, and all dialects like it, don't delimit their function arguments, so in order to be able to predict what your code means functions have to have a predictable arity. Functions have refinements to provide optional arguments, but whether those refinements are used is up to the caller, so that's OK. Without that, Rebol ceases to be a useable programming language.
DO function is an exception to this, but it is still under the control of the caller because DO redoes a function that is provided in an argument specified by the caller. So in that case, the number of arguments taken is still predictable.
 
@BrianH But currently, callers may have a hard time predicting how many arguments do takes, because its number of arguments is dependent on its first argument.
Hmm, hold on, I may need to rethink things a bit
 
@Sgeo But that first argument is under your control too, so it's not an issue. You can typecheck for it if you like.
 
Tangent: @DocKimbel just got GitHub to give him the inactive "red" account. Good for him. So @earl etc, might we get the new issue database upload to GitHub's rebol/rebol? I argued against r3 as a repository name before and I will do it again.
 
RETURN/redo makes it possible to make functions which take a number of arguments that are determined by factors that are outside of the caller's control, and that just breaks the DO dialect's predictability. And yes, it's a security problem as well, just like anything that breaks the predictability is.
 
I guess there's a limit to how many times you get to decide how many arguments there are with the do trick
 
3:12 AM
Not really, there is no limit. You decide every time, by deciding what to pass to DO.
You can choose to not screen your own arguments if you like. But then you're shooting yourself in the foot, it's your own fault.
 
As in, do muahaha 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, muahaha could look at 1 and decide to return a function of 6 arguments, but it can't choose, after seeing 1, to then allow for deciding whether or not to continue... wow I can't seem to explain what I'm trying to say
 
Redos are fine, as long as they are only implemented by functions that have the same constraints as DO.
@Sgeo yeah, without RETURN/redo it can't do that.
 
What happens if you do something like do foo 5 blah blah expecting foo to be a block, but instead it ends up holding a function
You lose any ability to predict what happens past that point
Clearly, we should have do/only for restricting do to blocks... @HostileFork
>.>
 
@Sgeo assert/type [foo block!]
Still under your control.
 
@BrianH Can't find the ticket ... is it in your local memory cache?
 
3:18 AM
And what happens when some idiot forgets to do that? There are a lot of idiots in the programming world cough SQL injections cough
 
@Sgeo I'm submitting a patch where basically every function has /only. If you don't specify it, it will open a pop up window that plays Tetris.
 
At any rate, I kind of dislike having a completely magical function
I don't see what allowing do on functions does so great that apply doesn't
 
@Sgeo that is what it's there for. The ASSERT function is designed to be used. For that matter, use function typespecs as well. We try to make it possible to write secure code, not necessary.
 
Maybe do on 0-arg functions would make sense... so you could pass in a nullary function instead of a block
 
@GrahamChiu the discussion was partly in issue.cc/r3/1949 and issue.cc/r3/1950 but also in Github issues (we hadn't required people to use CC for this stuff at that point).
 
3:23 AM
@rebolbot
either 0 < 1 does [print "math still works"] does [print "math doesn't work"]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
>> either 0 < 1 does [print "math still works"] does [print "math doesn't work"]
*** ERROR
** Script error: either does not allow function! for its true-block argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
oh
does math still works?
 
@RebolBot
help either
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> help either
USAGE:
    EITHER condition true-block false-block

DESCRIPTION:
    If condition is TRUE, evaluates the first block, else evaluates the second.
    EITHER is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    condition
    true-block (block!)
    false-block (block!)
 
@Sgeo DO on functions in general makes sense, in some cases. But DO on a function with refinements, but no other arguments, allows that function to have stack-local variables to play with - you don't get those with blocks.
 
3:26 AM
Is somefunc/somerefinement actually two values next to each other?
 
@Sgeo most control functions in Rebol operate on blocks because they are more efficient. Those DOES calls have runtime overhead.
@Sgeo it is a path structure, which is one of the block types. It's a structure with two elements in it.
@RebolBot do to-block 'somefunc/somerefinement
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> to-path [somefunc somerefinement]
== somefunc/somerefinement
 
But is :foo/bar/baz still one concrete value? If so, I don't... oh right, apply does its refinements thing by forcing caller to give values for all refinements
 
@RebolBot do to-block 'somefunc/somerefinement
 
Hmm
 
3:28 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> to-block 'somefunc/somerefinement
== [somefunc somerefinement]
 
Because they are structure types, evaluating them has runtime overhead. Sometimes people like to use other methods that are more efficient, on a case-by-case basis.
 
i've never used cure code, but what's wrong with it?
and again, i miss the motivation behind that "trello card". why are we doing a migration? what is the "business value" in it?
what problem is it trying to solve?
 
@GrahamChiu there was also a discussion in SO questions. Ladislav proved that RETURN/redo needed to be removed, by writing example code that was safe to run, but used methods that were provably unsafe if used mistakenly or maliciously. It would actually take a programmer of Ladislav's calibre to use the feature safely. But DO function is provably OK.
 
is cure code open source?
 
@onetom Yes
 
3:35 AM
@onetom CureCode is just another dissipation of resources for our core dev effort. It's not about something being wrong with it in particular, but @DocKimbel has chosen for Red to use GitHub issue tracking. It is unfamiliar and makes us look like we're using something esoteric for issue tracking which is basically a commodity at this point. No one wants to improve it considering the other work which might be done in that time.
 
the issue is having issues discussed in more than one location
 
@onetom there are certain practical, fixable things wrong with it, but the main reason it's bad is entirely a marketing issue.
 
Currently people have reported issues on joining CC with failed captchas
 
so github issues is already better than cure code?
 
And doc is on holiday ...
 
3:36 AM
i see
 
so we have a single person as a point of failure
 
I think that having some Rebol based reporting engines that work against GitHub issue trackers could be cool and broaden our appeal. This is another case of where you do better with integration I think.
 
makes sense but this is really something which would be good to note on that card, so others might see the value in helping out
 
@onetom Card ? Ok
 
@onetom Github issues have practical problems as well, but given that Doc isn't really actively working on CC it's more likely we'll get them solved. And we have known workarounds for some of the Github issues.
 
3:37 AM
trello
 
No idea. Fork?
 
i find the fact alone quite disturbing they call it "issues", btw
sw development shouldn't be driven by issues
 
Why so? What do you think CC tickets are?
 
@RebolBot "I've got issues..." for onetom
 
@HostileFork Can you elaborate on that?
 
3:40 AM
@RebolBot find issues
 
@GrahamChiu like that!
im getting trello notifications on my phone, so i have noticed it ;)
 
@BrianH I am unsure what your question is ^^
@GrahamChiu I think the bot needs a wakeup! command where it does attendance in the room but at-notifies everybody.
Perhaps it should automatically run it after some number of hours of inactivity. :-P
 
@HostileFork huh?
 
3:43 AM
i will think more about what exactly wrong w the "issues" terminology, but i just feel it sets an obsolete mode of thinking about sw development. it kind of acknowledges that sw development is a series of bug fixing...
 
input: "@RebolBot wake everyone up!" result from RebolBot: "Hey @GrahamChiu, @HostileFork, @BrianH (...etc)... wake up!" You can't run it unless no one has talked for a couple hours though. :-)
 
as opposed to, let's say "adding/redefining behaviour"
 
@onetom issue doesn't mean bug, it's a more general term. The suggestion to add a feature prompts the issue of adding the feature.
 
who controls the possible list of github issue labels?
 
@HostileFork onetom was asking about why people are suggesting switching to Trello. I missed that discussion, but thought you would be able to say the reason. It's a mystery to mee as well.
@onetom issue labels? I haven't come across that yet. But most of the stuff related to Github issues is controlled by the people designated as admins or developers on the particular project.
 
3:50 AM
Trello was my idea .. it's a platform to show the community and lurkers that there is life in the Rebol world, and there are actually people working on resolving problems, and moving forwards.
Maybe there is also a hint of inducing a guilt trip in those who have publicly proclaimed themselves to be working on a project but for which we have heard nothing!
Complaints about Trello use can be sent to me at >null
 
@BrianH I don't think anyone is suggesting switching away from an issue tracker and using Trello for, like, bugs. It's just an exploration into how we might use it to keep track of more persistent threads. We had the discussion earlier this AM and decided to not split the chat but to continue to seek ways to take anything more structured and keep trying to find the right tool fit for certain discussions. (e.g. going to skype for private discussions and screen sharing)
As you have said, the limited input of the medium is provides good guidance against saying important things here. And @GrahamChiu suggested Trello as one place we might put a certain kind of thing that people might chat about. We've not really gotten in the habit of using it but it does have a bit of accountability to it.
Maybe the habit will catch, and maybe it won't. But I like it for personal purposes and it is "ergonomic" in my opinion. We shouldn't be hasty in dismissing its application if you ask me.
 
@GrahamChiu no complaints from me. No use of Trello for me yet either; no offence, I've just been otherwise busy. And no project commitments from me either at the moment (see the comment about being busy). I have some would-be-nice-to-do projects, but it remains to be seen when I'll have the time to do them.
@HostileFork it looks nice. If it gets use, I have no objections.
 
I'm pretty happy we have had cards moved from to-do to done !
BTW, I'm told but can not confirm that the IOS Trello apps works a lot better than the Droid app
 
posted on June 05, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Clipboards in general don't work the same across platforms. In particular, there are platforms like Linux that don't have a single unified clipboard, they have several different clipboards with different APIs supported by different classes of apps. How would you propose to deal with that?

 
@GrahamChiu It's good just to have a map of things we've talked about. I think we should have a healthy mixture of forgiveness for the fact that these are generally unpaid tasks, along with the idea that no one erm... pulls a Carl in a sense... (by no way is he the only guilty party in this respect!)... but becomes the barrier to something someone wants, that others would be happy to do if given the chance.
Trello lets us at least ping and ask. It's a better place to ask how the project is coming than here.
 
4:03 AM
@HostileFork That's why we have a parked or paused list now so we know what's happening ...
@onetom I downloaded the darcs window client but I suspect it needs a whole lot of other tools installed to work :(
 
@GrahamChiu you need ssh if you want to handle remote servers or have webdav on the remote server if u want to go thru http. what's the situation with git? i think it has similar needs, isn't it? i remember i've installed git on a windows netbook and it utterly took 8 minutes to run the installer because it have installed so much crap...
@BrianH im talking about those things on the left side of github.com/gchiu/rebolbot/issues enhancements, bug, duplicate, invalid, question, wontfix
@GrahamChiu the last time i installed darcs on windows (~2-3yrs ago) it only needed an ssh client. i just downloaded putty and pageant, put it into c:\windows\commands as ssh.exe. logged into the remote server once so i can accept it into the know_hosts list via a graphical dialog and that was it.
 
@onetom oh, I never noticed those before. Which leads me to suspect that they are under the control of the project admins, like everything else about Github issues.
 
@onetom Guess I need more hand holding
 
@HostileFork yeah, I've pulled a Carl over the last few months, due to the move and change in job. Whoops.
 
@onetom Hmm. Many of those are done .. @Adrian we should close them off
@BrianH = cave man?
 
4:16 AM
@GrahamChiu where the cave is subject to earthquakes and massive plate movements, sure :)
 
@BrianH = hiding in bomb shelter?
 
@GrahamChiu im not very familiar w windows because i just found it too inconvenient for sw development, but as i see it hasn't changed much in the last 15 yrs, so just ask me bravely
 
Actually since I also live on the Pacific Rim, it is also is constantly active here .. and there's a slow 7 quake happening now.
 
@onetom I'd say it has changed a lot. But there's always been a culture of not making you throw out your computer every year and a half with MS, which isn't so relevant for dumb terminals (e.g. Macs, Chromebooks).
 
Macs are dumb terminals?
 
4:21 AM
@GrahamChiu I changed jobs, the city I live in, development platforms, operating systems, computers, had major hardware failures, and currently my only furniture is an inflatable mattress (the rest is coming later this month). Caves are usually more static than that, even bombs are more static than that :)
@Sgeo depends on your job. A lot of stuff doesn't get ported to Mac. Many people are stuck with Unix ports and their web browser.
 
@Sgeo Basically. And Apple has nice patterns like selling you Final Cut Studio and then less than two years after a $1.5K software package has been released, decide their new OS won't run PowerPC code. So despite the fact that the studio is a universal binary, they don't have a patch for the installer. It's planned obsolescence, they make more money if you throw out your computer every year and buy a new $35 adapter for every piece of hardware they make. It's blatant and a rip off.
 
@BrianH Been there, done that but I kept my laptop going thru all of that. And they gave me a hotel room to live in!
 
Apple profits from the ignorance and vanity of consumers. Which does prove that the market is ignorant and vain...and I suppose one might say it would be foolish not to capitalize upon that.
 
@GrahamChiu I had to find my own hotels while I was looking for apartments, and it's still debatable whether I will get reimbursed for the whole hotel stay (tax issues). I have a moving allowance, but my expenses will exceed it and some of them just don't qualify for reimbursement. In a couple months the expenses should settle down, but with the wedding this fall things might be tight for another year.
 
@BrianH hopes it all works out, it sounds to me like you're on good ground. Visit us as possible, but don't stress out about it.
 
4:28 AM
I'm still planning to go to the Montreal convention though. Don't yet know how/when it will be paid for.
 
@BrianH Jeez, do I have to find another couchsurfer host for us? :-P
 
@HostileFork well, I don't know what the state of the apartment will be at that time. Definitely no couches, and noone living there unless I get a renter (which might depend on other issues yet to be resolved). So I would be on the lookout for other options. No road trip / caravan I'm afraid, it's just not cost effective from SF :(
 
@BrianH Oh, well that's Chicago you mean? I meant trying to find a free place on couchsurfing.org via what rep I have there for you and Doc. I can sleep in my car quite nicely if I have a place to park!
I've slept in hotels that were much more sketchy and less clean than my air mattress in my modern car!
No peeling wallpaper, bedbugs, or roaches in my car :-)
 
@BrianH Use Trello to plan the wedding
 
Hobo tip: good place to set up your car to sleep is in a hospital parking lot. Grumble about how you're waiting for visiting hours. It's fairly secure, and works if you have a nice car.
 
4:40 AM
@GrahamChiu I'm not the one planning the wedding. I give my input, and help out, but Diana's the planner :)
@HostileFork hadn't heard of that site, I should take a look. Diana wants to come too, so we might find a cheap hotel if there are no other options.
 
While you couch surf, they remove a kidney to increase your credits.
 
@BrianH There's a registration fee and a verification where they send you a postcard and such, but I've hosted internationals and such and never visited. So I have a bit of rep unused. I don't really need a place to stay, just a place to put the car and a spot to shower or whatever...but I could put out feelers to a few people who want to meet new folks who are traveling...and there are some techs on there
It may sound like a recipe for disaster, but I think that reputation-based systems are underrated. It's kind of like how we want to rip on StackOverflow for the 20 reputation point thing, but look at the spam on Carl's blog vs. here and are they really so crazy to demand it?
 
Yes, they are absolutly crazy, it sucks big time. Spam should be dismissed by other tools
 
@pekr Well there are now 3rd party commenting tools so you don't have to do the spam checking yourself. Carl relied on us reporting the spam forgetting that he was also relying on himself to respond to our reports.
 
exactly - what Carl created was sufficient. He could delegate the press of big "delete" button to some other person, instead of constantyl ignoring his own creations ...
 
4:53 AM
Hey @pekr, taking time off from taking pictures of girls to argue with forks and moths I see. Who knows why people do what they do. :-) How goes it?
 
We all have our limits .. just have to factor them in.
/me .. I hate concensus meetings!
 
Consensus is what is necessary here. It's all fun and games until someone /only loses a Q! :-)
 
Consensus is what committees do .. and that's how you end up with Cobol and Ada.
If you want anything done .. do it yourself.
 
@RebolBot
print {I have a pretty good icon. The margins on the left and right are tasteful, in fact. But I must defer to {Fork}, for his icon is the most beautiful in all the room. It reduces well to small sizes, and has a glaring authority that I admire and...if I may say...it has star quality.}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {I have a pretty good icon.  The margins on the left and right are tasteful, in fact.  But I must defer to {Fork}, for his icon is the most beautiful in all the room.  It reduces well to small sizes, and has a glaring authority that I admire and...if I may say...it has star quality.}
I have a pretty good icon.  The margins on the left and right are tasteful, in fact.  But I must defer to {Fork}, for his icon is the most beautiful in all the room.  It reduces well to small sizes, and has a glaring authority that I admire and..
 
5:01 AM
@RebolBot
print {Graham's icon looks like a moth. Everyone says that. I suppose as steganography goes, that's kind of interesting, because it's not a moth. It sure looks like one though!}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {Graham's icon looks like a moth.  Everyone says that.  I suppose as steganography goes, that's kind of interesting, because it's not a moth.  It sure looks like one though!}
Graham's icon looks like a moth.  Everyone says that.  I suppose as steganography goes, that's kind of interesting, because it's not a moth.  It sure looks like one though!
 
@rebolbot
print {@rebolbot do print "Hi"}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {@rebolbot do print "Hi"}
@rebolbot do print "Hi"
 
Worth a shot
 
@Villain Hullo. If you do not like conformance (or if you do because you think conformance is underrated, hard to parse what you wrote), Rebol is the language for you! We are also supervillains in our own right.
 
5:02 AM
@Sgeo Won't work because I made the output from Rebolbot formatted as code so that it won't get into recursive loop. Tough luck!
Hope @Villan is not here to seek retribution for what rebolbot did on the Indian programmers channel!
 
@GrahamChiu Did you predict that or was it a response to an attack/mistake?
 
@HostileFork It was an error .. Rebolbot posted a message in the room to say there was no one there. Every 5 seconds!
 
@HostileFork @GrahamChiu
 
Of course this room always has someone here .. and I thought it would never do this because it would pick up its own icon?
 
@RebolBot print{@GrahamChiu @HostileFork Hello }
 
5:06 AM
@Villan Hey
 
@Villan What do you mean?
 
@RebolBot do "print @Villan"
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> "print @Villan"
== "print @Villan"
 
@Villain RebolBot needs you to shift-enter to code, or say DO. It has to do with Rebolbot's dialect, she's reasonably capable.
@RebolBot revolution? for villain
 
@RebolBot do "print I am New here"
 
5:07 AM
@HostileFork Is Rebol actually a Revolution? @villain
 
the 'do is there to enter the do dialect :)
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> "print I am New here"
== "print I am New here"
 
There is so much of a chatter to keep-up with the conversation. Would welcome some relax chatter group and the technical one ...
 
@pekr Don't sweat it .. just have fun
Important stuff gets put to as questions, trello, CC, starred items etc
 
@pekr We talked about this earlier and I think we suggested a more effective use of Trello and the other databases if focus is needed. Adrian is looking at discourse. This is the water cooler. Post pictures of girls you're doing photos of and relax as Graham says. This is just a discovery protocol for the Rebol world. Not institutional knowledge.
 
5:09 AM
@Pekr, please post pictures of your latest models here!
 
eh? how do I put picture here?
 
@perk Use skype to do personal communication and discover screen sharing, group hangouts, google chats. Etc. This is just us doing casual recruitment and encouraging people to learn how to use the Q&A on StackOverflow. It's way better than mailing lists, and generally well moderated. A bit stuffy.
 
Precedence already established .. @HostileFork posts his clay models and lego ones
 
You see? now I have put an educationa question here :-)
 
Need to use flickr, imageshack or whatever
 
5:11 AM
hmm, don't use those, sorry ...
 
@pekr URLs are oneboxed. If all you post is a URL that is. Even if I post the permalink for a chat message, it's "oneboxed" (finite list of previews). But JPG and PNG and YouTube all get oneboxed.
 
dropbox also works
 
1 min ago, by pekr
eh? how do I put picture here?
All I said there was http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/9838465#9838465 to get a quote, with a link in context (the 1 min ago). There should be an upload button but maybe you need a certain amount of rep before it does it automatically.
 
@GrahamChiu consensus is what well-run committees do - Ada was not made by such a committee, and COBOL wasn't either. You build consensus in order to find the right balance of requirements and desires, but once that consensus is built then you get a really good implementor to do the work. And with a bad mix of people, consensus is not a good idea.
 
@BrianH Trust you to fact check my made up factoids!
 
5:13 AM
If I post only 'http://metaeducation.com/media/shared/photography/duck-shoot/painted-duck.jpg' you can see my first ever digital painting, I'm getting better since, but not finished to share more yet....
 
OK, so do you lik following one? xidys.com/pekr/jana-rose-romance.jpg - it was just a first test shot, when setting-up light. My friend Jana posed before model appeared ....
hmm, it did not put the picture here ...
 
@pekr @dockimbel already posted her here
 
@GrahamChiu I had looked into how those two were designed already :)
 
ok, how do I get picture embedded here?
 
@BrianH I thought it was a believable statement .. oh well.
 
5:15 AM
So I am having trouble with light, because my zoom lens is just too slow. I can borrow my friend's $1k zoom lens with constant speed but only for one more month. :-/ A 1.4 50 mm is quite flexible in most circumstances with an aimable auxiliary flash to bounce but I am getting a taste for more. It's an expensive addiction.
Better to not know. Each thing I buy I can't go back.
@Villain Rebol is like this too, it's hard to go back once you see it. :-/
 
The biggest trick is to realize that consensus building is not democracy - no voting - and that not all points of view are valid. Some people are just better equipped to form a useful opinion on a subject than others, and with different subjects you get a different set of qualified people. To really get a good set of decisions you have to get a good balance of opposing views, and find a good compromise. I think we have a good set in this community.
 
Some links will be automatically inlined if posted on a single line by themselves, such as:

Stack Exchange questions,
answers, and users
Chat messages and rooms
Images
Wikipedia pages



Amazon products
Youtube videos
Twitter messages
Github gists
 
Trellos :-)
 
@HostileFork ... constant 1.4 tends to be really expensive, both Nikona and Canon. I have my 2.8 Tamron 17-50, nice lens. And recent cameras have rather good higher ISO performance. On my Canon 60D, I can get acceptance for my 1600 ISO shots, with something like 5D MK3, iso 6400 is a no brainer ...
@GrahamChiu - so how did Fork get his duck image displayed here? Need I somehow quote links? Or do I really need to use some specific services in order to being able to do that?
 
5:20 AM
@pekr Read what I posted above .. it has to be a single line!
 
@pekr Just don't put anything else in the post. It has to be only the URL on one line.
 
@GrahamChiu so could you make darcs work on your windows?
 
I should leave the US and get some roses, apparently.
 
ah, so - it works :-)
 
5:22 AM
Which camera you using?
 
@pekr do you just do portrait and pinup style stuff, or do you do more artsy stuff as well?
 
I have a D80, a bit of a hand-me down.
 
@onetom It runs .. but when I tried to connect to the darcsden server I think it complained about needing a ssh client I think
 
@pekr my wife is asking "why did he send the lady picture to you?"
 
But it's actually quite capable.
 
5:23 AM
Canon 60D, 450D, does not really matters. Difference is with the studio lights. I have 3x Elinchrom 600RX (top line) with some modifiers (soft box, beauty dish, grids for them, etc.)
 
The only problem is the kit zoom lens isn't great, and I don't feel like investing in a better lens for this camera
 
Why are these models wearing roses ?
 
@GrahamChiu sure, just download the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/latest/x86/putty.exe as ssh.exe into your path and fire up the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/latest/x86/pageant.exe but i would think you already have that, dont u? or a cygwin open ssh client, right?
 
@BrianH - well, my friend is doing a pin-up style. I am still just learning and testing. Will possibly get to more artstry stuff. Just bought onOne perfect SW in order to being able to replace backgrounds more easily, etc. We will see ...
 
Always lights. And if you're doing film, sound. People underestimate this and always overspend on camera lens gear.
 
5:25 AM
 
@pekr I have a few friends who do great art photography. I'll send you links on FB.
 
@onetom I have putty, winssh and tunnelier .. 3 different ssh clients :(
 
My first attempt to replace the background with the studio shot ... our youngest model - 18 months :-)
@BrianH - ok, thanks, I constantly look for an inspiration ...
 
@pekr Hehe. Well that's nice, but have you seen the world's worst father?. I think it's awesome but I guess we'll have to wait for her verdict.
 
@GrahamChiu according to darcs.net/Windows u need scp and sftp too
 
5:28 AM
posted on June 06, 2013 by johnk

[Comment] Based on my (non-exhaustive) search I agree that this looks surprisingly difficult in Linux without relying on large 3rd party gui toolkits. The Mac on the other hand looks like it might be possible.

 
Just recently I was kind of amazed by following guy - he really uses almost no gear, just natural light, and the boring scene turns out being really a magic one. So - it is not about 3-5 profil lights on the scene, but ability to see ...
 
@GrahamChiu do u have your ssh key login setup with the auth agent?
 
@onetom No idea
I use tunnelier mainly which handles all the rsa key exchange for me
 
@GrahamChiu check out KiTTY too: 9bis.net/kitty - it's a PuTTY fork with a better UI, and there's a portable app too.
 
tunnelier gives me a gui client and a ssh shell to use
I think I had winscp installed at one stage and probably removed it now
 
5:30 AM
@pekr I learned HDR from a guy who learned HDR from the guy who invented HDR. :-) I guess that's a little indirect. But still kind of cool.
 
Putty should be on my drive
 
I've used Tunnelier. You should still check out KiTTY.
 
Not that it's non obvious, but someone had to do it first.
 
@HostileFork 3rd generation Kung Fu?
@onetom I couldn't figure out the terse instructions and so gave up and went with github again which at least works .. though I have no idea why it now asks me for the userid and password each time! Whereas my other github repos don't do that :(
 
@GrahamChiu btw, as you see this is one of the major problems with doing dev work on windows. you dont even have standardized ssh solution for easy cross platform collaboration which other programs can rely on, so many utils are rolling their own solutions or bundling a certain version of the many alternatives with them.
@GrahamChiu how did you install git?
i've honestly wasnt aware it is still an issue on windows even for seasoned developers :( but i think if thats the case then it's not that hard to change it
 
5:35 AM
@onetom Just used Git Gui and followed the instructions.
I tried this treeapp thing recently and royally got confused :(
This was the repo I deleted from Github as I gave up on it
 
which is why i recommended to get away from git but then basic things like ssh on windows gets in the way... im sad... :/
 
I'm not sure why I'm still on windows ... perhaps because my laptop has multitouch screen ?
 
@GrahamChiu that's not a bad reason. Win8?
 
win 7 prof
@rebolek any progress on redis:// ?
I guess I would have made sure the basics worked before writing all that other code!
 
@GrahamChiu hmmm... that's quite a strong reason. i know what is it like... an emotional attachment. "i've already paid for it, so i want to use it to its fullest" but in reality it doesn't worth it.
i had an asus 1101ha with the infamous gma500 video chipset and i've pampered it for 3 yrs now because i was sad to see it not being used. the windows install has died on it, the recovery partition didnt work, there was no usable graphics driver for it for long under linux, now even its keyboard has died so it's running with an external keyboard. but objectively i feel it was such a waste of efforts... :(
 
5:48 AM
@onetom Snap! I spilled bath water into my keyboard so that no longer works .. so I use either a USB or Bluetooth keyboard :)
And I have to reset the graphics driver in the control panel every couple of days otherwise I get random mouse clicks appearing on the screen.
But .. I can use the pen to sign documents on the screen .. which is a big plus since sometimes Government want "wet" signatures and not just an EPS image that I merge into the post script.
And right now I'm listening to music using freebie bluetooth headphones that work up to 2 rooms away :)
Even if I look like a borg with flashing blue lights from my ears
 
@GrahamChiu Graham, I replaced the async-handler with awake-handler as you suggested on AltME, but still no luck.
 
which government?
 
New Zealand
 
i spilled coffee into my macbook too once but i've changed the keyboard and it's still fine
 
My dell has a spill proof keyboard too .. but .. it just means the spill kills the keyboard but nothing else!
 
5:56 AM
im curious about this signature thing because 1, i hate this fascination over hand written signatures 2, i worked in the e-billing business a little bit and had to deal with digital signatures
 
@rebolek Sorry .. if I have time to look again I shall
 
it's such a pain here in singapore/thailand/hongkong... they make a lot of fuss about hand written signatures
 
@onetom ??
China is inventor of the Chop
 
in hungary the law says until you testify in court that something way your signature then they accept it
so i can just ask my father or others whom i trust to sign shit instead of me and it cant be questioned at the end
well, that's china... im talking about south east asia :)
 
5:59 AM
btw, japan is crazy about these chops too, but it's very dangerous because they put too much trust in it
a wife can divorce legally from her husband if she steals his stamp...
 
I had several made when I was visiting Taiwan in the late 70s
Used them on my books ... ex libris etc
But because they smear .. I sprayed them with liquid plastic :)
 
@GrahamChiu Thanks. The async stuff is pretty complex... :/
 
I think the http protocol is not a good example to use as it's too complicated
He uses two async handlers communicating with each other
 
Are there any other async examples?
 
Andreas has done some and so have I.
@rebolbot present
 
6:09 AM
@GrahamChiu GrahamChiu rebolek onetom BrianH HostileFork pekr Sgeo earl rgchris BenjaminGruenbaum Adrian Henrik Respectech CCInc ewernli HuayinWang
 
I will probably start with the example I had yesterday that was working and would add functionality to it instead of trying to fix current version.
 
I think that's what I did .. got basic functionality working and build on that. Ended up with huge ftp and imap protocols that seem to work!
 
Well redis protocol works too...just not in async mode :)
And then I should fix and update the examples on rebol.net so others will have less headaches.
 
@rebolek I think @earl was doing that?
 
@GrahamChiu That would be great. However for example this page had last change in Nov 2010, Sync and Async operations in Nov 2011 etc...
 
6:24 AM
wasn't Gab's http just an experiment? I remember BrianH stating, that maybe protocols should use different aproach. But no such protocol attempt appeared over time. Maybe http could be simplified in some regard?
 
@pekr @earl has a private trello page with a card that says he would like to rewrite the prot-http
@rebolek that would be right .. we all mostly lost interest in R3 when Carl disappeared
And most of us forgot we had edit permissions ( related to r3 chat ) on the wiki!
 
6:58 AM
Sorry I had to leave rather in a hurry, yesterday. Anything important since then?
OK, no split yet.
 
@ingo there seems to be no great demand yet for a split .. this is disposable chat. Look at all the pictures of models that @pekr posted that shows we run short of rebol chat!
 
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