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18:00
So this is the Welcome Wagon we were promised? Accusations of violations without proof? Character slander? This is hardly different than the generic cross posted answer I’ve seen on all the resignation posts. — Sterling Archer 2 hours ago
welcoming doesn't matter if we're the good guys
Dunno if it has been said, but the thing most infuriating me in this 'update' is treating a moderator removal as a software deployment with the 'never ship at 6 pm on Friday', that's over the minimal human respect
4
it's only cynical in the light of the whole "people matter on SO!" premise
@AndrasDeak This is not a "question", this is a statement, in a very volatile situation. It's disrespectful to think anyone else knows how it should be composed other than the person who wrote it. At most, spelling and grammar corrections, but no redacting.
18:03
unless it's someone who disagrees with your agenda, oops
Haha, look at me I can relate human experiences to computers I'm such a nerd
I'm convinced that Sara put in a lot of thought what and how she wanted to say what she had to say. And I wouldn't be surprised if others had read it, as well. We may not like the message, but we should respect it.
Why respect a lack of respect?
@AndrasDeak except it never was that. "our tribe of people" matters, is what the innuendo means
18:05
Well, that's really enough for me. I won't hang around SE out of a specific room, have a good time everyone. Farewell
Considering everything, it takes some nerve to come out and expose oneself (yet again). The problem is the choice of person for the job. But when I was her age I problably would have been ten times worse!
SE currently has exactly none of my respect, and they're not doing a good job at getting it back.
@Zoethetransgirl Do you want to lower yourself to the other person's standards, or stay true to your own?
It’s just yet another case of executives being unwilling to admit when they are wrong or prove they’re right. I respect that maybe they can’t share all of the information, and that sucks for them, it it’s still just yet another case.
@GeorgeStocker not sure if relevant, but I believe I've broken encoding over there
> New comment posted by Félix Gagnon-Grenier
18:09
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yeh, it hooks into the SE API, which encodes "non-standard" chars
ah
I'm really tempted to do a teeth-grinding joke about SE's inclusivity of my name's characters
@FélixGagnon-Grenier that's not George's thing, and I've already opened an issue for that
ok, apologies for the ping George, seeing as it was pinned I presumed it was
@Zoethetransgirl it's been a long slow decline for me, with a very sharp drop off at the end.
18:17
I think right now the best words I have for SE in general is "I'm very disappointed"
🚽
0
Q: Threshold experiment results: closing, editing and reopening all become more effective

Shog9This post details the outcome of an experiment that reduced the thresholds for closing and reopening questions to 3 votes on Stack Overflow. Warning: this post is looong. There is no "tl;dr". There is no summary. I've been thinking about this crap almost every day for 7 years, and I'll be damned ...

15
@Shog9 <3
I know it ain't gonna seem like much, but... A lot of y'all helped with this, and I wanna thank you
Thank you :)
18:23
Shog 💜💜
and hope you're alright amidst all this...
3
D: I <3 first on the post and you guys all <3 in here, no fair
whoah that's long
@Shog9 Was this less than 30,000 characters or did you use some Shoghacks?
7
Q: Threshold experiment results: closing, editing and reopening all become more effective

Shog9This post details the outcome of an experiment that reduced the thresholds for closing and reopening questions to 3 votes on Stack Overflow. Warning: this post is looong. There is no "tl;dr". There is no summary. I've been thinking about this crap almost every day for 7 years, and I'll be damned ...

18:26
@Feeds Shush Feeds, you're late
@BhargavRao v3ry 1337 shoghacks. 35786 characters
I think character counts got mixed up between the apology and Shog's experiment. /s
@Shog9 I can't imagine having to write all that up under the pressure that you too must be under right now. I know some people will say that it's posted as a distraction from the current issues, but you should also know how much we appreciate your work
Feeds is slower than Shog9. Shog9 > robots confirmed
That's good for when the robots try taking over
I'd assume most of it was written prior to today
18:32
Shog's report? yeah.
There is a lot of (probably very interesting) data there, but isn't it just a red herring? — BrakNicku 3 mins ago
Are down-votes after rep reaches 1 discounted completely or does it stack in the background but 1 is displayed?
@Script47 Thinking theories alound here, but wanting to clear one's head to be able to give more attention to a gigantic PR fiasco is different from knowlingly trying to distract attention.
@Script47 1 is the floor.
@Script47 it's functionally the same as a rep cap
In fact, if you hit 1 and someone up-votes you after, you get credit for the up-vote, so it's actually easier to "recover" from 1 than a higher reputation.
18:39
there is no "pool" to be drawn from
the rep changes based on the value at the time the vote was cast
That makes better sense.
@Shog9 I'm glad to see that my idea of a rolling average stayed on those, charts, and the R ones Meg made do look better ;)
@ConspicuousCompiler why is it unfair to doubt "Sara's intent"?. The title of the post says "and an apology" and you know well that this isn't an apology at all...not even close to one
4
So I'm going to frame what @Shog9 posted on Meta and take that as a W for the week.
Turning off the Geiger counter now...
"I recommend you to [do something]." That phrasing is... unfamiliar.
18:55
> We must never forget that this machine is built on people and that they deserve respect and appreciation.
sight for sore eyes
@AndrasDeak Oh that explains my backache
@Lamak it can't be proved or disproved. it's useless. hot air.
@canon BZZZT BZZZT GRAMMAR ALERT
reads the latest few starred posts
That should be subjunctive.
18:56
@Lamak I think that depends on what you were expecting them to apologize for.
@Zoethetransgirl *sigh*
That went about as well as I predicted.
@Makoto come join the fun
I had some hopes of a decent reply.
No
I have a W dammit
I want to keep this W
@M.A.R. it's in lightbulbs :P
18:57
reading Shog's post and then the official reply is the worst direction. It should go the other way around...
Yeah I dun goof'd @AndrasDeak
@AlexanderO'Mara oh, right…"our bad that we did this on friday afternoon, silly us"
But that's really...my habit of going to Meta Stack Overflow for kind of everything
"150 towards brick wall" kind of mistake. Whether or not metric.
@Makoto That sounds dangerous
Is tungsten inert?
I mean, heavy metal poisoning is a thing
18:58
@Lamak Serious question, no sarcasm please. What were you expecting them to apologize for?
But it mostly involves us putting lead in things and then apologizing for it
@M.A.R. no, it happily oxidizes
@M.A.R. Sounds like the kind of music I want to listen to right now
(I think)
I mean for a time when I rode the bus to and from college I had the concept of "defensive Rammstein"
18:59
Hah, forward-linking in chat is weird.
@Makoto I find lions roaring more artistically stoic
"I Find Lions Roaring" is yet another great rock band name
Ballad rock, likely
Meta's probably a band called "This is a band"
This is a Band's Band
I heard you like Bands.
19:00
Hmm
^ Pop rap.
That's a thing
So I'm going to get back to work from off of break, but I'll leave this here as a way to kind of sum up my thoughts on the latest PSA.
29
A: An open letter on the state of curation and moderation

Makoto...where's the equity in all of this? One of the things that I'm struggling to deal with as a part of this issue is how it can be resolved, and how things can go back to "the way they were". Problem is, I'm not seeing a path forward. We don't know what an "apology" to this whole mess would loo...

@M.A.R. it's called bubble wrap
@AlexanderO'Mara for the treatment of a user that gave away for free countless hours of moderation in SE
@AndrasDeak nice
19:03
@AlexanderO'Mara I don't wanna cause a headache for myself (and you), but I only now got to read it after Zoethe's pinned message, and isn't it just a more verbose version of the meta.SO one? It's not an apology, and people are pissed at it for the same reason as the meta.SO post, and I personally can see why.
@Lamak What treatment? Specifically?
That's so cool BTW that it should be Mozart's nick. Wolfgang Amadeus Zoethe Mozart
@AlexanderO'Mara why do I have to give you a detailed summary of what happened?, you have access to the same information
@Lamak I know what happened. I'm just not sure what happened shouldn't have happened.
@AlexanderO'Mara you know what I'm talking about, no need to do this
@AlexanderO'Mara well, good that I'm not trying to change your opinion
19:05
Wasn't sure if you were assuming guilt on SE's part, and that they should apologize for that guilt.
If SE's actions were justified, what's to apologize for?
@Shog9 thanks for posting! Reading now
@AlexanderO'Mara You seriously believe they were?
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I think they could have been.
@AlexanderO'Mara for the treatment of a user that gave away for free countless hours of moderation in SE
there is a process to remove mods
this was something else entirely. Come on, you think that mods are just resigning because what SE did was ok?
@Lamak I think a lot of people are doing a lot of things without knowing the full story.
I also think a lot of people are going off of a lot a claims which are not 100% accurate.
19:09
@AlexanderO'Mara mods have a lot more info about what happened, so sorry if I trust them instead. Even if everything they say that Monica did is right, the way the went about it is still wrong
@Lamak SE staff have access to even more information though, including the emails which were apparently exchanged.
@AlexanderO'Mara oh, sorry, if you want to post the 100% accurate summary about what happened I might change my mind. For now, I'll continue to trust the judgement of users that I've known for years
@AlexanderO'Mara I don't think we understand each other. To make it clear: "Even if everything they say that Monica did is right, the way the went about it is still wrong"
@Lamak I read it as an apology for the way they did it, even if they can't go back and redo it.
The only thing they apologized for is that they fired her on Friday rather than Monday
^
comparing that to shipping a version to production on friday is so dehumanizing it's fucking unbelievable
9
19:14
@AlexanderO'Mara we read it differently, and we think different too. No need to keep going about this, as I said, I haven't tried to change your mind, so let's disengage
so much for "considering people as humans"
@FélixGagnon-Grenier exactly!
They're always right.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier They pushed justice to prod (⌐■_■)
19:15
Not "justice". "just ice".
(the emoticon in my previous message is blind)
ooof took me a minute there
😎
@FélixGagnon-Grenier On balance, ... actually that's pretty indefensible so I'm not even going to play devils advocate
That this happened just before a multiday religious holiday for monica - something they were keenly aware of, does not make it better
@BhargavRao I... had to adjust the limit to allow me to post.
What would have made it better?
@Shog9 Hah! One-percenters changin' the rules....
This is not the largest (char-wise) post I've made on MSO, btw.
I once set the limit to 130,000 chars for...something
@canon damn straight
lol
@AlexanderO'Mara Relevant are this message and I guess the whole discussion when it was hot.
is that done like, for the whole network, or your account alone?
@Shog9 Hey, I could have used some of that for the Kill Meta post
I was this close to cutting down things to the degree of them becoming nonsensical.
It's CW now anyway
19:27
> I think it's worth mentioning that Stack Overflow as a company intentionally called Monica "they" in the public statement they gave the media (bolding mine):
More than anything, I'd like to be reassured that this whole thing was not one employee's unilateral decision... and that there was at least some reasoned, internal discussion beforehand.
It wasn't a unilateral decision. That much was clear.
@user58 What provided that clarity? I may have missed something. The information is scattered across a million posts.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier They only used "they" in the first email, where they didn't name anyone specifically.
@canon The way it was presented in the TL.
19:31
@AlexanderO'Mara yeah there seem to be some clarifications under the post
@user58 Ah.
19:46
I actually forget the first we'll do better post. Was it Tim? There've been a few.
19:56
"As we continue on this path to doing better, [...]" Continue? SE's meta engagement and communication have been a refrigerator tumbling down a staircase for over a year. When did this path to improvement start?
3
@canon If anything it's convinced me that meta itself as a concept will get the axe soon
@canon they meant doing better for them, obviously. And that includes not communicate with us
@Magisch I very much agree.
^
it really does sound like meta.so will disappear, doesn't it?
@canon I think it would be important to differentiate who, rather than putting everyone in the same pot. Shog, Tim, Megan, Cesar - nothing much to complain about, there.
19:59
the newsletter is something else. crazy how the employees now have a platform they can use to push to millions worldwide, surfing on the product the community built
*blog articles
On reflection, one good thing about this "Update" post is that it's going down on SE Meta, not SO Meta...
eh
that just means we can't in any way control how long it's featured
otherwise it's not much different
It does mean they follow their rules on what goes where. It does affect the whole network.
Actually, I'm reflecting on the onus of SO Meta's being "toxic" and possible endangerment of its existence. SO aren't the "bad guys" this time around...
How many of the answers are from people with an SO account?
20:07
This is how it works with many social tech companies and nonprofits
the companies themselves are a lot more progressive then their user bases
@KevinB Who knows? How many with an SO account also have accounts on other sites? How many have no SO account? A lot of names in those answers and comments I don't recognize...
What is kinda sad though is that I think we won't get more staff communications until some more time away, and that means back to hearing nothing for a week or two
They think their actions are justified. they aren't going to divulge more information that would undoubtedly fuel those that think the actions aren't justified. Nothing they can do now, other than reversing course and/or time to forget about it, would have any healing impact going forward on the majority.
Unfortunately i don't think we'll get either. The new CoC will be dropped on us without the warning/discussion we had last time, which will just fire this whole debate up again.
And they'll have fewer mods to enforce that CoC
eh, temporarily
people will run for mod
20:23
No question, I think you're right @KevinB
I personally view resigning as... ineffective. The worst way to push for change is to pack up and go home. All you're doing is making room for those that do agree with the actions taken.
I think y'all are overestimating how much of a change is coming to the CoC. From what I understand, it's going to be a sentence or two at most and is essentially a clarification of the spirit of the CoC. It's not being completely rewritten, unless I've missed something.
@KevinB Not sure I totally agree. If really the other party is completely unmoved by many people resigning, they were not worthy of the energy to begin with.
I think that decision is something everyone needs to decide for themselves. For one thing, why someone is here? Is it to gain points? Help others? Learn by helping others? For the social life and community, such as it is? All those things will influence how someone feels about staying... or not.
However small the change might be, it's just one more step in that direction. a step a year adds up quite quickly.
20:25
tell that to my boss when I'm late on monday morning..
"I'll be at work soon enough lol" :p
Anyway, as I've been saying for a week now, I'd be wary of making assumptions and speculating without having all the info... something that most people still do not have.
we'll never get the info.
For most of the current events... that's fairly accurate, yes.
For the CoC... not so.
I wouldn't mind "refusing to respect people's chosen pronouns is rude" - but I would mind if SE decided to completely ignore community opinions going forwards.
To a certain extent, I think it's a question of opinions about which topics.
I can understand that there are some things that there's just no reason to get opinions because the company feels they must do something. Whether we agree it's a "must" is irrelevant, to a certain extent.
I'm seeing a trend that our opinons about technical matters are listened to...?
20:34
All i want is for both sides to have a fair chance to discuss it without resorting to isms and otries being thrown around.
T.J. Crowder was so thoughtful, asking about my gender.
And what's life like as a space fungus...?
So much happened in three hours :<
@canon so, you arent a cannon?
20:49
Cool to see Shog is finished with his analysis. Very thorough.
(Actually better Data Science than what is usually touted under the banner of data science)
@CindyMeister dark and humid, ideally.
@Dragonrage No. :/
A cannon? I thought they were a printer
@canon mildly disappointing.
i will need more nachos to deal with the grief
Nachos shouldn’t be consumed
@weegee @NickAthePopcornKing has good nachos
@Dragonrage Your expectations should have been set by the spelling. Sorry to disappoint.
@Dragonrage is ordnance shaming me...
@canon i thought you were just like me, someone who regularly forgets that cannon and canon are different things
assumptive memory shaming
21:20
0
Q: What is difference between Clustered and Nonclustered Indexes

AlanI have questions, there is a table with clustered indexes of eight columns if I do not use all its elements in the WHERE conditionals is this still valid? There is also a table with four columns of indexes not grouped in a WHERE query. Are all indexes valid if used or only the first index predom...

 
2 hours later…
22:52
I've got a theory about actions we observe. Maybe it's a matter of simple math. Maybe some just assume that since moderators are less (much less) than .015%, this means they don't matter much?
23:11
@gnat the power they hold keeps sites alive. All sites need mods
Most users with some rep are moderators to a certain extent.
@gnat I was actually thinking about that recently. It's actually tough to measure the value moderators bring.
It's kinda a thankless job, nobody visits Stack Exchange for the post a moderator deleted.
@AlexanderO'Mara only diamonds can lock posts and find voting rings
@gnat That would be the case for a normal site. But SE has outsourced all of the heavy lifting to power users and moderators
User tools are quite limited
In that sense flubbing them like other tech companies frequently do is an incredibly bad idea
23:16
@Zoethetransgirl True, but those incidents are pretty rare I think.
@AlexanderO'Mara voting rings? More then 60 per week on SO alone
60 per week the script did not find
keeping up with that is like 2-3 full time jobs
@Magisch Wow really? I suspect SO has most of them though.
probably true
but yeah the mods pour in hundreds of highly qualified hours a week
SO has most of everything
SE couldn't afford to outsource that even to call center workers
and your average call center worker is probably not a highly logical power user with thousands of hours of experience in the subject matter they'll be asked to moderate
23:21
@Magisch: Interesting. I didn't even know voter rings were a thing. That's so lame! Wasting time conspiring to inflate arbitrary gamification rep :-P
there are many
I've personally flagged like a thousand and a half incidents and I was doing it only on occasion
@einpoklum Some people actually do it to avoid question bans I guess.
the mods have a lot of work with that
So they can ask questions to do the job they can barely do.
@Magisch: Well, at least now they'll all need to vote-rig with nice and proper gendered pronouncs...
23:22
in Discussion on answer by Sara Chipps: We’re removing “Hot Meta Posts” from Stack Overflow's sidebar for now; moderators now fully control [featured], Jul 24 at 22:29, by Sara Chipps
Tyler, you bring up an excellent point. SO users don't participate on Meta. In fact, Meta has so few active users I could have them all my apartment over for a potluck :). Yet, it seems to be a place that a lot of people leave unhappy. The CMs are welcome to participate on Meta if they want.

It has, in the past, been part of team expectations to participate on Meta. Now, what has changed is that it is optional, with the caveat that most announcements will happen on the blog.

I like the idea of the SO Company account, however, it still doesn't really help with the fact that there are Milli
but mods do much more then that. Plagiarism, suspensions, handling CoC violations ironically, all that
^^^ it's not me, I am talking about those who seem to believe that small numbers mean negligible importance
@AlexanderO'Mara: Ah, I see. But - don't those get noticed when they start asking the "do my job for me" questions again?
@gnat I understand your frustration but I don't think bringing these up is helping anything.
@Magisch: Ah the irony. With the moderator strike, CoC violations might not get handled.
23:25
@einpoklum Ironically, some sites now without mods have nobody to actually handle CoC violations outside of the 4 CMs who are buried 250 feet under in backlog
It definitely won't change anything on the SE side, it might prove to someone that we're just petty little gremlins, and it will probably just help us wallow in self-pity. The present is depressing enough without having to dig up old wrongs.
@gnat: Sara Chipps has now gotten to see that at least 1090 people participate on meta... her apartment must be pretty large for that pot-luck.
@einpoklum Maybe it's them voting rings again. :P
@AlexanderO'Mara: Reading Chipps' quote... it's just so incredible... it's, oh yeah, I know what it reminds me of. This.
please don't just hone in on sara here. I know none of you means to but it might come across as a personal attack.
thats not a statement on the validity of any criticism but I want to keep this chatroom unfrozen
23:41
that intent is probably aligned with the best chances of MSO prevailing
@Magisch: Fair enough. Will let that go.

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