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12:16 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Drew Reese
@KevinB It says "Add relevant but minor or transient information to a post" STOP. And then provides a couple examples. It doesn't say explicitly what is or isn't minor or transient, does it? — Drew Reese 1 min ago
 
12:39 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by bad_coder
This post is dishonest, your first bold says one thing the rest of the post says the exact opposite. It's misleading. — bad_coder 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Ryan M
@bad_coder could you elaborate, please? — Ryan M ♦ 11 secs ago
 
12:51 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by bad_coder
@RyanM this is way too serious an issue for me to elaborate further. My reading is as I stated in my previous comment, it's not personal. — bad_coder 15 secs ago
 
1:14 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin B
It does not, it leaves that up to the community to interpret. so mods are free to have a policy to fit the community needs. — Kevin B 12 secs ago
 
 
1 hour later…
2:16 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Cordes
@bad_coder: Are you mixing up upvotes with accept votes? This answer is suggesting one narrow exception, for accept votes only, but a hard no on any asking for upvotes. Since you refuse to explain yourself, that's my only guess at how you might be misreading this answer. I think it's a good answer, as well as internally consistent. — Peter Cordes 1 min ago
 
3:07 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by bad_coder
@RyanM point 3 is way to narrow (it defeats the whole purpose) I've had answers accepted long after they were posted like 3 to 6 months later. Some OP's login like every 3 or 6 months, if you can't link to the help center or ask "did that work for you?" the rule as proposed defeats the whole purpose because it effectively bares any interaction... I vaguely remember one case where "did it work" and the "yes" were separated by several months and the "accept" followed even more months later. No harm was done, but barring that kind of communication is a serious constraint on interaction. — bad_coder just now
 
3:24 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by nvoigt
"be curious enough to hover their mouse over it" always the first thing that comes to mind, when working with a tablet... — nvoigt 58 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by bad_coder
@RyanM the devil is in the details, in this case "the fine print" is saying you can't ask: "if it worked?" (point 2) but that's just one bad blanket prohibition rule substituting another... I honestly think the voters are endorsing the bold, but don't get to look at the "fine print" bullet list below. And that's what I was saying, the key idea at the top holds no relation to the proposed details at the bottom. (Sorry but I have a hard time expressing this). — bad_coder 56 secs ago
 
4:01 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray The idea that accepts are no longer very important suggests people should switch to encouraging voting, not that people should stop encouraging users to use the content rating features of the site. This is nuts. Yes, some people go way too far with asking for upvotes or accepts. But that means you should adjust the policy to deal better with bad actors, not make it draconian in a way that creates absurd traps for users who are legitimately trying to educate new users on content rating, which helps with curation. Blanket banning linking the help is going way too far. — jpmc26 36 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
This would be better than the policy in the original post here, but I think it's still too draconian. Consider for example a user who revisits a question from two weeks ago and leaves this comment on the question: "Did my/any answer solve your problem? Please accept it if so, or clarify your question if not." Nothing wrong with that. And with the recent changes that now de-emphasize accepts, I'm not sure forbidding the suggestion of upvoting is a good idea, either; on the contrary, they make it more important that users upvote good answers now. — jpmc26 1 min ago
 
4:21 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@Dharman "Noisy comments" is an overblown issue anyway. The site's original philosophy was developed in opposition to 40-message threads that contain 2 important tidbits of information. Two or three comments on a post do no harm to anyone, even the readability of questions and answers. If mods are spending too much of their time deleting "noise" comments that are harmless, then you're wasting your time on something that just isn't important. A better answer would be to limit flagging to situations that pose a bigger problem. — jpmc26 1 min ago
 
4:46 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine
@CodyGray If someone was implying that they wouldn't help someone who doesn't accept answers, wouldn't that kind of comment already be considered excessively condescending under the CoC? — EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine 7 secs ago
 
5:36 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
"put under threat". No, hardly. You're being politely asked by the moderator team to stop doing something that we feel you shouldn't be doing and isn't necessary for a variety of reasons. That's not "a bad deal", that's how moderation works. This is no different than saying that a user who has contributed hundreds of high-quality answers should get a free pass on being rude, or posting off-topic questions, or any of a dozen other things that moderators typically ask users to stop doing. I've grown very weary of all these "I'm done" threats throughout this Q&A. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
To be clear: no one is proposing any penalties here. We're just clarifying the policy is that such comments should not be routinely posted, and that, as such, they're going to be deleted on sight. If a particular user is posting hundreds or more of such comments on a regular basis, they're likely to get a message from a moderator asking them to stop. It's no different than the way we handle all other matters when it comes to comments. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
The problem I believe you're missing, as with most people here, is that, no matter how politely you attempt to phrase the comment, there's an inherent power dynamic involved in a 172k rep user leaving a comment "informing" a brand-new user how the site works. You may have attempted to be entirely neutral, and you may have even succeeded on a purely textual level, but that user is still going to feel pressured (previously, I've used the term "bullied", but I'll avoid that b/c it's been suggested that trivializes real bullying). — Cody Gray ♦ 37 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
Considering that there's no requirement for users to accept answers, and their choosing not to do so doesn't hinder the experiences of other users or future researchers, or make the site any better, it is our collective considered opinion (and certainly my own) that it would be preferable to risk a few new users not accepting answers when they might otherwise do so if they were better educated, than to have new users feel pressured into accepting answers that they are not actually satisfied with, just because of the way they were told and/or who told them in what context. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
And then there's the issue of noise and scale. Even if you do follow up and delete your own comment, it was still there on the page for all the time that it was there, serving as a distraction to other viewers/researchers. This is something we should all strive to avoid. The purpose of this platform is questions and answers, not teaching users how to use the site. If the latter is getting in the way of the former, then it's a problem. Beyond that, it sounds simple to just leave the comments for a while and later flag/delete them, but that's a lot of work for mods. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
Again, most people here are not understanding or appreciative of the sheer scale/volume that we're talking about. Each user we've messaged so far about this, and each case we've even contemplated taking any action, has involved thousands of these comments. When you consider we're talking about hundreds of users, each leaving thousands of comments... that's a lot of comments. It requires more than just a one-off, case-by-case type of management. Maybe that's unfortunate, but that is the reality. — Cody Gray ♦ 11 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by bad_coder
@CodyGray then it's a good thing everyone is disagreeing with you (and demonstrating your way of putting things is misleading). — bad_coder 31 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
What this counter-proposal doesn't explain is the advantage(s) of allowing these comments to be posted or exist at all. It probably would address the scaling issues, and perhaps even do a lot to address the noise concerns, but it does nothing to address the very real issue of perceived pressuring of users to accept [an/the] answer. It's very easy for those of us who have been around for a long time, have strong opinions, and a willingness to defend them in comments to imagine what it's like for a brand-new user reading a comment from a high-rep user. They just do what they're told. — Cody Gray ♦ 33 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by smci
@Lundin: people primarily write low-grade blog posts to boost their own or their site's visibility and SEO metrics, not to share knowledge. IanKemp: true, but SO in recent years is seriously losing Google SEO ranking wars against the paid tutorial/bootcamp sites. It's getting drowned out for new users out there. So if SO want to do a content-farm-type blog to counteract that, then it serves a good purpose, even if no human ever reads it. Anyway, the Site Satisfaction Survey sounds skippable. (Do the respondents who didn't complete the SSS show up in the results as dissatisfied?) — smci 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
I do not think it is in any way "important". The only "importance" is in people earning rep, and that's not "important" to me. We should, indeed, seek to induce users to indicate if/how existing answers are unsatisfactory, yet I don't ever see anyone posting comments asking for or suggesting that users cast a downvote on their answer if they don't find it to be helpful. And that really brings us to the heart of this, which is that such comments, especially when posted in large quantities, are not only noise, but blatantly self-interested, despite all the lip service about "greater good". — Cody Gray ♦ 32 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
In response to, "How will other people encountering the same issue know...", they won't. And that's OK. Because there's no guarantee that the root cause is identical in all cases. Instead, what those future viewers will do is to try all of the answers, most likely starting with the highest-scoring ones, as those are the ones that worked for most people (ote that it doesn't matter much whether they specifically worked for the asker; it's enough that they worked for most viewers), until they get to one that worked for them. If none of them solved their problem, maybe they can set a bounty. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
@EvgenKo The Help Center article you linked that explains how acceptance of an answer works is not setting out "core principles of SE". The core principle is that we're working together to build a knowledge base through high-quality answers to questions. The functioning of that knowledge base does not depend on users being able to induce other users to upvote and/or accept their answers, and it certainly doesn't hinge on anyone earning rep. SE is not communism; it's collaboration. One person posts a question, someone else posts an answer. Others find those contributions useful. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
"If askers don't want to engage with answerers, how about not asking a question in a first place?" Ack! No. Despite your own rhetoric about "the core principles of SE", you've completely misunderstood the purpose and principles of the site! The reason for asking a question is to make a valuable contribution to the knowledge base. The mere act of asking a question is a valuable contribution, because it allows others to make a contribution by answering. This isn't about tit-for-tat. Askers have never been expected to engage with anyone else. — Cody Gray ♦ 59 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
Hmm? Are you defending the "I'm done" threat? Because I'm not going to be bothered in any way whatsoever if this policy causes all the rep-seekers who have been posting thousands of inducements in the comments for other users to accept answers to suddenly stop using the site. I'm puzzled that you of all people, someone who I perceive as very good at putting yourself in the place of others, is unable to understand the problematic power dynamic that such comments create when directed from high-rep users to newbies. I've never once seen a newbie refuse to accept an answer in response. — Cody Gray ♦ 49 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
(Caveat: only read the answer, not all the comments.) "The problem here is users who encourage misuse of the voting and accept features, either actively by begging for votes when it's not appropriate or more subtly…" In fact, we completely agree. This is exactly what we're doing. We're attempting to address users who leave hundreds or thousands of these comments, often as blatant begging, almost always on their own posts. Now, determining "when it's appropriate" is difficult, as that's inherently subjective. Mods aren't going to rate the worthiness of the answer. — Cody Gray ♦ 10 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
All of your enumerated criteria are exactly the same criteria we have been looking at when determining whether to take action (such as sending the user a message asking them to stop leaving such comments), and they're the same criteria we plan to continue following. You've nicely summarized the problems and concerns leading up to this policy announcement. The thing is, we don't want to inadvertently create more work for ourselves or encourage rules-lawyering, so we're just going with a very clear policy. — Cody Gray ♦ 22 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
If it so happens that a user chooses to leave a small number of these comments, in cases where it's fully appropriate, then it's extremely unlikely that a mod will never notice. If we don't notice, we're not going to do anything. Even if we do notice, well, we haven't announced we'll be throwing common sense to the wind. As with all policies, it requires putting at least some baseline level of trust in the mod team not to be idiots. I think that's fair. The policy absolutely does leave room for subjective judgment calls. But policies that say "it's subjective" aren't policies. — Cody Gray ♦ 38 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
Alas, I don't have nearly enough room in a comment to delve into the nuances of my actual thoughts on this, but "it's not pressurising them to do any action, it's educational" is, unfortunately, wrong. It is technically still the user's choice, but I have yet to see a new user on the receiving end of a comment from a high-rep user who has decided to make the choice not to accept the answer in question, and, in many of those cases, the answers have been, in my admittedly subjective opinion, crap. Why did they accept it, then? Because they felt pressured to do so by the comment. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
When you leave comments with contextual "guidance", and you do so from a position of perceived power, that comment carries a lot more weight than mere "education". Moderators both suffer and benefit from this, as our comments all come with a diamond/mod label attached to them, so we understand it quite well. For new users, a user with 76k rep is nearly indistinguishable from a mod, or even a god. Linking them to an official Help Center article telling them to accept an answer is virtually equivalent to making an official demand that they accept the answer, whether you mean it or not. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
@Karl I think there's something in the sidebar of the mod message page that explains it's not meant for back-and-forth discussion, and that if you want to discuss site policies, you should take it to Meta. At least, there's some verbiage like that in the mod view. We're warned to avoid getting dragged into extended discussions. The reply feature is there so you can plead your case or offer relevant evidence/context, and that's very useful, as sometimes we make mistakes or miss things. But it's not meant as a platform to litigate policy. Inventing a new architecture won't guarantee scalability. — Cody Gray ♦ 52 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by rene
I think asking the same/similar question twice is a trick so the respondent is self-validating the accuracy of their answers, giving the data analist a much easier task in reducing the error margin and/or giving more weight to those surveys that self-validate better. I doubt if surveys like these are a good tool for an on average highly skilled population. We're programmed to outsmart the goal of the survey. — rene 7 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
You're absolutely right, @Bergi: the appropriate way to say "thank you" on Stack Overflow is to cast an upvote and/or accept vote, not leave a comment. We're all in agreement about that. And yet, it's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about users who are leaving a large number of comments telling users to accept answers. The mod team feels that isn't an acceptable use of comments. More generally, one user misusing comments does not justify another user misusing them. Flagging "thanks" comments as NLN is the recommended course of action. — Cody Gray ♦ 28 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
"bodies the mods left by the side of the road" Wow, I have a real problem with that language. We sent an extremely polite message to users who had exhibited a pattern of posting excessively large numbers of comments (hundreds or thousands), primarily on their own answers, asking for users to accept those answers. We felt that that was inappropriate behavior, especially on such a large scale, and we asked as politely as we could for the users to stop. We didn't leave any bodies anywhere. We didn't harass anyone. Addressing exceptional cases is what mods do. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
@MattD That's a false equivalence. Comments telling users not to post text as images, use external links, etc. are suggesting improvements to the post, which is exactly one of the things I stated as being the purpose of comments (note that I didn't make it up; it's directly from the commenting privilege description page). So, yes, comments suggesting improvements to the post are obviously allowed and will continue to be allowed. But not comments suggesting that users make decisions that are meant to be entirely personal, like voting and/or accepting. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
@trlkly No, actually, I don't need to make those changes first. The real problem here is people who are leaving unconstructive comments, and leaving them in massively large numbers, on the order of thousands, primarily in cases where there is a clear conflict of interest. I can address that by simply putting a stop to those users leaving comments. Now, I agree that it would be nice to make improvements to the site and the way that users are educated. But a failing of the site's tooling does not justify users abusing comments any more than it would justify vigilante justice. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
There's a huge problem with your suggested comment, @jpmc26. It tells the user they have only two choices: clarify their question (which presumes it's unclear and flawed), or accept your answer (which presumes it's perfect). That's the epitome of bias, especially considering the source. Those aren't the only two options. You don't have the right to tell a new user that either your answer is perfect and needs accepted, or their question sucks and needs clarified. Simply leave the user alone. If they want to accept your answer or clarify their question, they can. Or, they can do nothing. — Cody Gray ♦ 17 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
@Marco I am not merely assuming it, but going on experience. New users do pay attention to such things; I have countless empirical examples confirming that they do, and many more examples where I have personally witnessed new users accept what I believe is a crap answer immediately after seeing a comment from the author "recommending" that they accept the answer. I don't think this is improving the site in any way. In fact, I have never once seen a new user refuse to accept an answer after receiving one of these comments. This is independent of the quality or care of the comment's wording. — Cody Gray ♦ 57 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by bad_coder
@CodyGray this time I will not prove why your argument is wrong. — bad_coder 54 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
I think so, too, @EJoshua, but I've already been told by at least one user in the comments section here that it is perfectly fine. So, I don't really know what to think anymore. My intuition about what is reasonable seems to be failing me. The broadest section of the community appears to be OK with users leaving thousands of comments underneath answers requesting that their answer be accepted. I never, in a million years, would have thought that would be classified as reasonable behavior. We're only posting this because we kept getting pushback from users we reached out to about this. — Cody Gray ♦ 59 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
@jpmc26 Yes, we want to encourage voting. What we do not want to do is have a user in a position of self-interest or perceived power (due to rep, badges, or other factors) implore new users to take a particular action that represents nothing more than an individual's opinion. The people who are going too far with asking for upvotes and accepts are the people at whom this new policy is directed. Mods don't waste time thinking about or discussing things that haven't become a serious problem at a scale that vastly outstrips our ability to deal with them. — Cody Gray ♦ 20 secs ago
 
6:49 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
If we moderators weren't interested in an outside voice to tell us how bad our ideas were, why would we read and/or post things on Meta? Why would I have taken the time to read hundreds of answers/comments from users here expressing disagreement about something which I think is just common sense and obviously feel strongly about? Sorry, but this kind of oblique insult just doesn't land. It's hard to, on the one hand, leave comments like that one denigrating moderators, and, on the other hand, claim that comments you're leaving requesting accepts aren't laden with innuendo. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by bad_coder
@CodyGray this time I will not prove why that latest argument is wrong. — bad_coder 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray Okay. How do you tell the difference between that and educating users? Is there a meaningful, distinguishing factor? If so, why isn't it written into the rule instead of a blanket ban? If not, why are you concerned? This rule as written is not targeted at anyone in particular. It's a blanket ban. — jpmc26 41 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Travis J
Why would there have been no thought into each reason? Don't you think that if I were to define 5 new close reasons, with the history, timelines, and logic behind each one, that would have been a massive post? This simply raises the cap to allow for the community to begin work on making reasons that can succeed. At present, there are too many corners cut as it is with the reasons to fit into 5. — Travis J 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Travis J
You are right Cody, in that the entire set is problematic. At least with a community defined set, we could bypass that mess. — Travis J 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by einpoklum
@CodyGray: 1. I never said anything about requesting downvotes. 2. "They wont. And that's OK... no guarantee..." <- It's not terrible, but it is better if OP indicates what worked for them by accepting an answer, or that nothing worked. Look, CodyGray, you're really not making a convincing argument here. It sounds like you want to dump the baby with the bathwater, with the bathwater being people who nag about getting upvoted, or whatever. Of course I have no power on SO, so you guys will probably do what you want anyway, but just don't pretend like you were able to convincingly make a case. — einpoklum 52 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray Also, this Marxist notion that all acts in "self interest" are bad is garbage. SO isn't designed to care about your motives. We care about your actions. Are you improving the site's content? Good. Are you degrading the site's content? Bad. We don't care why either way. The point of the reputation system is to reward good behavior. If someone is educating users on proper use of the site mechanics and happens to get a reward out of it, that's the system working as intended. It's only a problem if people are getting pressured into rewarding content they don't believe is helpful. — jpmc26 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine
@CodyGray I think that there's a big difference between asking someone to accept an answer and asking them to accept your answer. I'm fine with people explaining how the site works, but I'm definitely not fine with people begging for votes on their own posts or being condescending to other users for not accepting enough answers. (I've definitely seen people do things like that too). Those comments should be deleted. — EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine 55 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray So instead of going to the absurd extreme of banning linking a help page, figure out what constitutes bad pressure and forbid that. — jpmc26 43 secs ago
 
7:27 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
Self-interested/involved parties can't neutrally educate users, @jpmc26; that's how we tell the difference. There is no difference. If you think this site is badly moderated, you are welcome to go elsewhere. This isn't the first time I've been called a Marxist, and I'm sure it won't be the last. I can certainly think of worse insults. Anyway, again, the point is that requesting users to accept [an/your] answer is not improving the site in any way whatsoever, which is why we're not interested in allowing users to do it, considering the magnitude to which it has been abused. — Cody Gray ♦ 22 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray No one can completely neutrally educate anyone on any topic. We don't live in a communist utopia. That doesn't mean we can't do good things. You may as well shut down the site if you really believe that should be the standard. — jpmc26 58 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
I didn't say you said anything about requesting DVs. I said it. If it were actually true that the users posting these comments had no self-interested, reputation-seeking motives, and were truly neutrally concerned with getting feedback and/or improving the answers, then it stands to reason that they would leave comments requesting downvotes. Yet, I've never seen one! That suggests some other factor is at play. To answer your question, yes, I am 100% OK with a consequence of not having these comments being that fewer answers get accepted. That's worth avoiding the noise and the pressuring. — Cody Gray ♦ 10 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Trilarion
"to accept an answer" The important part is "an answer" or "the answer that you found most helpful". So I agree that we can ask for that in general, but we should avoid asking to accept a specific answer. It might not be the most helpful or helpful at all. And if we ask we should always ask below the question, never below a specific answer. — Trilarion 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by einpoklum
@CodyGray: 1. I'm sometimes one of those users - when I'm looking for an answer and don't know which one to try. 2. Sometimes I'm a self-interested reputation-seeker - if I've given an answer which I think is valid, and it gets ignored (or upvoted but with no accept of any answer for a while). I'd say that is a legitimate consequence of gamification. 3. Now you're talking! A trade-off with negative and positive consequences. My point here would be, that it's not a binary choice, and you can phrase your rule differently, catching the vast majority of problematic cases. — einpoklum 43 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray "Now, determining 'when it's appropriate' is difficult, as that's inherently subjective. Mods aren't going to rate the worthiness of the answer." If you can't tell the comment is bad without rating the worthiness of the answer, then mission freaking accomplished. Apparently, they're leaving appropriate guidance... unless you're saying you can tell the comment is not appropriate for some reason independent of the answer quality, in which case you can make the determination without determining the answer's quality. — jpmc26 34 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray "All of your enumerated criteria are exactly the same criteria we have been looking at when determining whether to take action" Then write the rule that way instead of writing it as a blanket ban on linking the voting help pages!!! If the rule as written is not the rule being applied, that's a problem and is a major source of the push back you're getting here. — jpmc26 29 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Trilarion
"The underlying problem is" also that acceptance generates rep. If acceptance were just ... acceptance, we could probably live with people reminding others about it. — Trilarion 26 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by einpoklum
... and the question vote tally suggests that you have somewhat over-reached, further indicating a milder rule change is in order. You're in the situation of being objectively biased in favor of justifying your enforcement practices so far, since without this exact rule change you will have been deemed to have acted inappropriately. But - it's better to suffer through a bit of contrition and make a more modest rule change. If you find that insufficient, you will be able to empirically argue for the stronger version. IMHO. — einpoklum 53 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray "Even if we do notice, well, we haven't announced we'll be throwing common sense to the wind." When your policy includes a blanket provision forbidding linking part of the help documentation, yes, you have. It's not on us if you've communicated that badly. — jpmc26 48 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by einpoklum
Have you also posted a feature request for this option to be available on the menu? — einpoklum 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Trilarion
"Waiting for staff to implement a site features to help the problem is not usually a feasible solution..." That's why I really like alternative, more open Q&A software platforms like for example Codidact, where one can simply implement dearly wanted site features oneself instead of waiting for someone else. — Trilarion 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray "As with all policies, it requires putting at least some baseline level of trust in the mod team not to be idiots." Hard for me to do when ideologically motivated lies and willful misinterpretation (explicitly contradicted by nearby content of mine) have been used to justify punishing me on multiple occasions and then met with silence when I pointed them out. The entire point of putting a law above everyone is that people cannot generally be trusted to rule fairly. I expect SO to makes its rules and adhere to them as a binding contract between itself and its users. — jpmc26 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray Also, I didn't call you a Marxist. I said the idea is Marxist, and that distinction is more than just a technicality. I'm calling the reasoning absurd, invalid, and harmful because Marxism is absurd and invalid and leads to terrible outcomes when people put its principles into practice. I am imploring you to abandon damaging mindset, not blindly hurl insults. — jpmc26 35 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
"unfortunately, wrong" I would say you are wrong here, @CodyGray . And large majority of users here seem to agree with that. A few moderators opinion don't change that; don't pressure us to agree with that. — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
"I have yet to see a new user on the receiving end of one of these comments from a high-rep user who has decided to make the choice not to accept the answer in question" I am sure I can find a few, if any comments I've made aren't deleted. — Larnu 16 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
"Why did they accept it, then? Because they felt pressured to do so by the comment." Did you ask them if they felt pressured, @CodyGray ? If not, this is at best, an assumed state of mind. You need to back up that claim with citations. — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
"virtually equivalent to making an official demand" Again, wrong. If I were demand it, the wording would be very different. There is a huge difference between between asking and demanding. If you don't know the difference, then why not make a [feature-request[ the change questions to demands? They are the same thing, right? (This is hyperbolic, but proves your stance of thinking asking and demanding aren't the same). — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
I suppose my confusion came from not understanding or agreeing with your implicit assumption that Marxist thinking is "absurd and invalid and leads to terrible outcomes". — Cody Gray ♦ 22 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Trilarion
@QHarr Fully agreed and furthermore there is another difference between "please consider accepting this answer" and "please consider accepting the answer that most helped you". We should discuss here instead how to best formulate these things, not if it's allowed or not allowed. These are much to coarse categories. — Trilarion 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray I suggest you study history, then. A good starting point is dekulakization, which is a quintessential implementation of Marxist principles. Marx himself literally preferred society wide violence (one might call it a genocide) against a particular class of people over letting capitalism continue improving societal conditions. The Manifesto calls for a dystopian government that controls all media and transportation. There is nothing good in an ideology that is literally built on blaming a specific group of people for everyone's problems and openly calling for violence against them. — jpmc26 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
Couple, of examples where answers that were not accepted after letting the OP know about the accept feature: 1, 2. — Larnu 40 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gimby
I'll meet this one half way though. I am 100% positive and convinced that there is no intention to penalise with this re-enforcement of what was actually already a rule to begin with. I believe it, the people attached to this are all people I have faith in. But then we are only talking about a slice of time, - right now. Not about the future. This policy opens the door for the people after the Cody Gray's in the world... to penalise people with good intentions. Because penalising IS on the table, it is just not preferable. Not yet, anyway. I can understand this makes people pessimistic. — Gimby 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray It seems to me that the problem with your thinking is ignoring the fact that an action can be mutually beneficial (which is certainly one of the major problems in Marxism). A person can simultaneous do a good thing and also benefit from it themselves. There is nothing bad about that; in fact, it is an incredible good when all parties are better off. As I said before, if a person is getting new users to use the site appropriately and they get some reputation out of that, there's nothing wrong with that. This policy forbids that, and that's a huge negative for everyone. — jpmc26 57 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
I studied history for 4–5 years. Considered working towards a Ph.D in it, but abandoned that in favor of getting a job as a software developer. Thank you for your suggestion, though; I'll take it under advisement. Perhaps more of your own study would reveal that Marxist historiography is not equivalent to advocating a violent overthrow of government. I do not, of course, think that bullying other people into accepting one's own answer is mutually beneficial, and I doubt that any more study of history is going to convince me otherwise. There's no inherent good in getting an answer accepted. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray After several weeks, it's vastly more likely the asker simply forgot about the question. I've certainly seen that,, and the response to my reminder was quite positive. — jpmc26 11 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray "You don't have the right to tell a new user that either your answer is perfect and needs accepted, or their question sucks and needs clarified." No, it implies that if none of the answers provided solve the issue, there's a mismatch between how the answerers understood the question and the reality. The only way to resolve that mismatch is with clarification. Your interpretation is your bias against answerers. You're the one injecting an incredibly negative set of assumptions about the someone's character. — jpmc26 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
May I remind esteemed @jpmc26 (as a resident graduate of the faculty of philosophy here) that marxism is not limited to works of Marx (not to mention that the representation of their works you give here is extremely reductive - see, for example, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts), especially the Frankfurt school of thought? But we are getting way off topic here. — Oleg Valter is with Ukraine 49 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray The insistence on equating any mention of proper acceptance and voting usage is equivalent to bullying is both invalid and the source of the problem here. — jpmc26 34 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gimby
Codidact is a site which has been started by people who were disappointed with Stack Overflow's designed rigidness (knowledge bases are like that). Of course it does not have anywhere near the amount of eyeballs that a Stack Overflow has, but on the other hand the sheer volume of data and activity going through Stack Overflow is in some ways detrimental to the experience of using it so it might be exactly what you are looking for. — Gimby 1 min ago
 
8:57 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by iBug
@CodyGray If only a small number of veteran users continuously post such comments, why make it a rule so that everyone loses the right to poke around? I'm not seeing this at a large scale, so it doesn't make sense to make a mountain out of a molehill. True, a failing of the site's tooling does not justify users abusing comments, and neither do some users' behavior justify the deprivation of all's right. This is the same way relevant self-promotion is fine when used sparingly and otherwise on-topic. We handle excessive ones case-by-case, not ban everyone off from self-promotion. — iBug 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
"What should I do?" If you are adamant that you have improved the questions so that they cannot be improved upon any more, then the only other thing you can do is wait until you can ask again, and make sure that question is exceptional. — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Frankfurt school is the source of critical theory, which maintains the "blame the seemingly dominant class of people" mentality (which naturally implies overthrowing them), which is the most fundamental problem, even if it doesn't directly advocate for violent methods. It's certainly still associated with advocacy for authoritarian governments. Contrast with Western schools of thought that consider people individually choosing to perform good or bad acts rather than reducing them to members of "good" and "bad" groups. — jpmc26 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by hikitan1
There is nothing else I can do? It's been a few time, and I doubt that anyone will actually upvote them, since they are a bit specific? Thank you for reading, I was expecting people to downvote from the moment that they saw the title — hikitan1 12 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz
@hikitan1 None of your visible question seems to have been edited recently. In which way did you improve them? — samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz 24 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by hikitan1
Yah you said correctly. "Recently", cuz I edited a few months ago, when I first got my ban. — hikitan1 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
Well, this has gotten positively ridiculous and factually disconnected from reality. The Frankfurt School is not "the source of critical theory", identifying the source of a problem is in no way equivalent to advocating violence against a group of people, and critical theory is pretty much the epitome of a Western school of thought. Let's put this political rant back into the box it came out of. My position is simply that I'm prepared to risk losing a potentially useful signal in light of the fact that far more significant harms arise out of how some users are attempting to bring it about. — Cody Gray ♦ 17 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by iBug
@CodyGray Re the previous comment: There's no way to construct languages that don't carry the slightest tone of "suggesting", yet for the vast majority I've seen it's the news' ignorance about our voting mechanism. Getting users onto the right way of voting reduces noise, helps sort out good answers, and more importantly, encourages us to write answers (as jfriend00 makes a solid point above). It is simply unfair that one loses a deserved green check mark just for the asker's unawareness of it, and there must be an effective way to resolve this, of which a reminder comment is the simplest. — iBug 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz
You could start improving them by adding compilable minimal working example instead of just showing a picture. If this does not help, you could also ask a meta question on how to improve a specific post. — samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz 55 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by hikitan1
You talking about my last post, but there is no code that I could've putted there. Cuz it's not a question about code itself, it's more of if a thing is possible or not. I had that doubt, I even sent a picture to show I could only display 1 option, and asked if I could display more than 1.. Also, thank you for reading this post instead of ignoring and downvoting — hikitan1 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Bagus Tesa
waiting for people complaining about posting images, ok, before you shot your downvotes, that link can die any time - i just wanted to provide proof. — Bagus Tesa 45 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jonrsharpe
Votes are for content, not users, so that is misuse. — jonrsharpe 24 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
I will admit, there is a smell to those posts. The answers are of low quality, that are link only and should be flagged, but if you smell foul play then you should raise a custom mod flag. — Larnu 53 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
It might come as a surprise, @BagusTesa, but we actually like images on meta. People only don't like images of code on main. — Oleg Valter is with Ukraine 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dharman
Please flag it for mod attention. — Dharman ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
Btw, please don't engage in discussions of votes under people's posts - voting fraud is investigated by moderators - just flag and move on, nothing productive comes out of such engagements. — Oleg Valter is with Ukraine 38 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
Also please, do not put emphasis on users. That only serves to call for pitchforks - this information should also go into a custom moderator flag. — Oleg Valter is with Ukraine 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Bagus Tesa
@OlegValteriswithUkraine, noted. i just wanted to clarify stuff before things gone. — Bagus Tesa 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jonrsharpe
@Indianprogrammer when people ask off-topic questions, those that show no research effort, are unclear or not useful, they get down- and close-voted. That's not "toxic"; if we're going to allow time for learning why shouldn't that include teaching people how this site works? — jonrsharpe 35 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. There's definitely some suspicious behavior going on here, on multiple levels. Moderators are looking into it. While we do so, I've gone ahead and locked the comments on this post, as they were rapidly getting unconstructive. In the future, as noted in comments and the linked duplicates, it's best to just bring things like this to moderators' attention via a flag on the post. You can provide all the same details in that flag that you did here. Only mods can deal with this stuff, so there's no need to bring it to Meta. Thanks! — Cody Gray ♦ 51 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by iBug
I also don't like how you mods have already edited the previous rule to remove that part a while ago, and only asked this "proposal" days after. This doesn't smell like an "asking", but more an announcement. — iBug 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray Dunno where you're getting your ideas from, but "Western philosophy" in common vernacular generally refers to people like Locke, who are about as far from Critical Theory as we can imagine. As for Frankfurt and CT, maybe I'm misinformed, but what I can find certainly identifies some kind of link (1, 2). And if you're gonna insist what I'm saying is false, you better be prepared for me to respond. — jpmc26 8 secs ago
 
9:57 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray As for "identifying the source of a problem is in no way equivalent to advocating violence against a group of people," that's true as a generality. But Marxism explicitly claims a distinct class of people to be at fault, and it uses that claim to justify its calls for violence. Also, since I distinguished CT as not calling for violence but still blaming classes, I clearly didn't equate them. This garbage reasoning that doesn't actually pay attention to what I've said is the source of many awful claims moderators have made about me, and it's something all of you need to shape up on. — jpmc26 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by EvgenKo423
@CodyGray I understand the purpose, but it just doesn't work that way IRL. As I said above, I'm quite sure that none of the askers came here to "build a library" and there would not be much answers without the gamification aspect. Earning rep is one of core principles: it's a primary motivator of contribution and the base of a privilege system. You can't upvote or become a moderator without rep – the things SE can't work without reliably. The new asking wizard also teaches to engage with answerers. And for low-traffic questions getting any rep by anyone sometimes becomes an issue. — EvgenKo423 24 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray "My position is simply that I'm prepared to risk losing a potentially useful signal in light of the fact that far more significant harms arise out of how some users are attempting to bring it about." It's not potentially useful. It is useful. It generates correct, beneficial action in a large number of cases. If users were ignoring it wholesale, you'd have no basis for claiming they feel pressured. I don't care what your preferences are. I care about whether this policy aligns with the site's core values, and it doesn't. That isn't a matter of my preferences, either. — jpmc26 48 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dalija Prasnikar
Even if you ask whether something is possible or not, having some code showing what you already have and what you cannot achieve can help in providing solution. In this last question image was enough, but only because what you want is not possible. In another scenario, something would be possible, but without seeing your code people cannot tell which part of your code is wrong. — Dalija Prasnikar 56 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gimby
It can't be denied that someone showing you a courtesy is reason for a large portion of the population to feel that they need to reciprocate. Let's stop calling it "pressure" though, that is overstating it and it has caused this meta post to go off the rails. — Gimby 18 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray A little bit of pressure (or encouragement, as would be a more typical description since these types of comments are frequently very polite, and in fact the example you all deleted was extremely polite, friendly, and not demanding) isn't harm anyway. Automatic reminders are intended to pressure users, too, and you support those. So clearly you don't believe it's harm, either. And "noise" clearly doesn't constitute an egregious harm. Which leaves only one potential "harm" I can think of: moderator time. Seems to me you're only thinking about yourselves, rather than the whole site. — jpmc26 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
Benjamin would be very surprised to find themselves amongst those who, as you mention, claim to "blame a class", @jpmc26. So would Fromm, for one instance. You are correct, though, that Frankfurt school shares a common methodology called "Critical Theory". However, I too would not call them the source of critical theory (although given that you seem to refer to the specific term, yeah, they can be called the source). As for "blaming a class", no, it's not an inherent trait of marxism. Class-based understanding of society, to some degree (take Adorno, f.e.), yes, often, but not "blaming". — Oleg Valter is with Ukraine 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Mark Rotteveel
You need to select the "link-only" review option. — Mark Rotteveel 23 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sunderam Dubey
@CodyGray I also faced this thing, see here, does this shouldn't be the accepted answer, the user was new. — Sunderam Dubey 35 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Kevin
this has spiraled way off topic. Can we move the discussion about Marxism and Frankfurt school somewhere else, and maybe clean up some of the off-topic comments. — Kevin 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@OlegValteriswithUkraine This comment will self destruct shortly. (I'm not sure how else I could leave a temporary reply, but I promise to clean this up.) I'm not going to argue as my familiarity with CT is limited, even though I'm not fully convinced and I especially disagree about Marxism blaming classes. But I want to thank you for the manner of your response. You actually tried to name specific examples that would demonstrate my claims are wrong, and where I had a point but was kind of off, you just offered some clarity. That's been dishearteningly rare in this thread. So thank you. — jpmc26 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by ouflak
@CodyGray, "...there's an inherent power dynamic involved in a < insert high number > rep user leaving a comment "informing" a brand-new user how the site works." - So higher rep users should be more careful when making suggestions on how to interact with the site, as that might be bullying? Are the new users you're trying to protect even aware of the rep system and how that works? From your comment - "no one is proposing any penalties here". From the Original Post - "Our hope is to not have any suspensions". These two statements appear to implicitly contradict. — ouflak 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Braiam
@CodyGray this idea is just an example of an idea that should have been quashed the same moment it was uttered as impractical, pointless and the opposite of what your stated "objectives" are. If you don't have anyone that will tell you that in the in-group, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you all need to collectively touch grass? — Braiam 55 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Jonathan Willcock
@CodyGray A lot of your comments seem to be about the power dynamic of high-rep users vs newbies. Do I take it therefore that you are more relaxed, when a low-rep user does the same? I have certainly written such comments at times. Indeed one newbie in a private chat revealed to me that he thought he did not have sufficient reputation to accept an answer, because the check was "greyed-out". I do not have as much time to spend on the site as I would like. I almost never open a question with an accepted answer. Encouraging newbies to accept saves other users' time. — Jonathan Willcock 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by SOsucks
Damn that was quick. — SOsucks 33 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by SOsucks
If this gets deleted it kinda proves my point. — SOsucks 14 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by SOsucks
Freedom of speech for the win — SOsucks 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Darth-CodeX
Try reading thisDarth-CodeX 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
This question is a rant at best; it doesn't actually make any suggestions, and doesn't seek input from users. Considering you signed up today as well, that suggests that this account is a sockpuppet, which just lowers the authenticity of your claims. — Larnu 39 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jonrsharpe
"the website itself should try to improve the way it explains their rules and guidelines for everyone, especially outsiders" - I agree. The problem you're describing is an expectation mismatch as much as anything. Unfortunately providing more information doesn't necessarily help, because there's plenty already but people don't read it. — jonrsharpe 24 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Darth-CodeX
Do not play Freedom of Speech victim card here — Darth-CodeX 25 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
"Freedom of speech for the win" Has nothing to do with anything here; you mistake Stack Overflow for America and the ability to say what you want in your own private residence. — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
aww, @Kevin, and I was just about to venture in discussing Marcuse! :) [seen your comment, jpmc26, thank you for a polite reply] Anyways, yeah, seems like we are getting way off topic here (however much it speaks to my area of interest and education). — Oleg Valter is with Ukraine 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by jpmc26
@CodyGray "new users accept what I believe is a crap answer immediately after seeing a comment from the author 'recommending' that they accept the answer" Whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought you guys weren't evaluating the quality of the content here! How do you know the user doesn't think it solves their problem? I've seen plenty of garbage answers accepted without prompting. — jpmc26 40 secs ago
 
11:21 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
And that's (rep being the base of a privilege system) precisely what many have been arguing against for quite a while. The system as designed is a huge failure. The efforts are better placed in pushing SE to moving to a sensible progression-based system rather than making things worse by making sure the status quo (in assessing of which you are correct) persists. — Oleg Valter is with Ukraine 38 secs ago
 
11:46 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Tam&#225;s Sengel
This is status-completed. — Tamás Sengel 1 min ago
 
11:59 AM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
I can have an opinion, without enforcing my opinion as a moderator. Yes, sometimes low-quality answers get accepted without any comments. On the other hand, in the case of the comments, the answers weren't accepted before, then the comment got posted, then the answer was accepted. This smells like a correlation to me. Even if we already have a problem with low-quality answers getting accepted by new users, exacerbating the problem doesn't seem like the solution. — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
I truly do not feel that calling it "pressuring" is anywhere close to an overstatement, @Gimby. That choice of a term already represents multiple strength-reductions on my part, and I'm not even sure it's strong enough. It's clear that many others do not see it as pressuring, based on this Meta discussion, but I continue to believe that's because they have already forgotten what the power dynamic feels like and/or are not looking at it objectively. If a waiter brings you a drink, you thank them, and they reply with, "Good service should be rewarded with a tip, sir"… that seems gauche. — Cody Gray ♦ 19 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
I just noticed that the linked answer has already been changed. This means that this topic isn't a proposal any more, it's an announcement and the mods are expecting the community to just accept the mods new rules, even when it's been terribly received. We're used to Stack overflow doing this, but not the mods; i don't agree with the linked answer being amended until after the proposal is actually applied; this sets a terribly precedence of do now, ask later. — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
The fact that you're not seeing this at a large scale doesn't mean that it isn't happening at a large scale. If anything, that's evidence that moderators have spent a lot of time handling it, which is why we're wanting to do something about it. Also, as has been noted multiple times, both in the initial post and in the comments, we mods had initially just been handling these exceptional cases, but we got a lot of pushback about it, so we are trying to do better about explaining our motivations to the community and getting their opinions. What we're hearing is surprising, but… — Cody Gray ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
…maybe that's just because we're still doing a poor job of communicating what is going on here. The intention is to handle the exceptional cases, to deal with the mountain that we know exists because we've been climbing it for the past several months. We're still seeking better approaches. That said, arguments about a "deserved green check mark" just fall onto deaf ears with me. I just can't buy into that. Nobody deserves any type of reward. That kind of objective assessment just can't be justified, and especially not by the person who posted that answer. There's just far too much bias. — Cody Gray ♦ 44 secs ago
 
12:22 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by iBug
@CodyGray If the intention is to handle the exceptional cases, then be explicit about it. The proposal, as is currently written, makes a blanket ban that's affecting negatively and harmfully all the innocent. / Other arguments on "deserved reward" and "motivation" have been covered thoroughly by other users, which I find verbose to repeat here. — iBug 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by T.J. Crowder
I like this approach, but re: "I would suggest that anything linking that help center article should be deleted with a single "No longer needed" flag" I think that's setting the bar too low for deletion. It's an unfortunate fact that there are people on SO who, seeing that exchange on an answer that isn't theirs, won't hesitate to flag the comment to make it go away. The sad reality is that a large subset of people genuinely are that petty and self-serving. Leave it to the usual number, which is already small (like 3?). — T.J. Crowder 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Peter Mortensen
@rob74: They also stepped on a chess-like game with a history of many thousands of years. — Peter Mortensen 46 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Bender the Greatest
@CodyGray But flagging NLN doesn't really fix the issue. The comment gets silently removed, and the user may continue to leave "Thanks!" or similar noisy comments instead of using the site features to express proper feedback. I agree overall that we shouldn't be pressuring users to accept bad answers, or even our own at all, but I also don't feel it's inappropriate to point new users to the documentation about how site features work. This especially true if the user has a habit of never interacting with an answer other than to say "Hey thanks it worked!" — Bender the Greatest 15 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Jonathan Willcock
Given the evidently substantial resistance of the community to this "proposal", are the mods going to come back with a revised "proposal" or is this a fait accompli, as implied by OP saying that the mods have been enforcing this "policy" for some months, without any prior discussion? — Jonathan Willcock 44 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Jonathan Willcock
Given the evidently substantial resistance of the community to this "proposal", are the mods going to come back with a revised "proposal" or is this a fait accompli, as implied by OP saying that the mods have been enforcing this "policy" for some months, without any prior discussion? — Jonathan Willcock 33 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by PM 2Ring
The other thing about tooltips is that they don't exist on touchscreens. Sure, only a low percentage of people tend to post questions & answers on SO from phones or tablets, but I suspect a higher percentage check their posts from mobile devices. — PM 2Ring 49 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by PM 2Ring
On a related note, this makes it very difficult to discover a lot of the features of the Stack Exchange interface on touchscreens (and to some extent on devices with a mouse). You essentially have to click on everything by trial & error to see what happens. It mystifies me that so many features are hidden in plain text rather than obvious buttons, and that this interface isn't clearly documented. The Tour (kind of) tells you how to use the site, but documentation on how to use the interface (apart from the editor Help) is either non-existent, or buried in various meta pages. — PM 2Ring 32 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by PM 2Ring
Sorry if that last comment seems to be going off on a tangent, but a central theme of this question revolves around educating newbies. IMO, the system features do not do an adequate job, so it's often necessary for old-timers to post educational comments & links. — PM 2Ring 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Lundin
Indeed, it shouldn't be rocket science to implement some script blocking such comments. "if (comment.length<n AND comment.contains("thanks") then { block_comment(); inform_user_how_to_use_SO(); }". — Lundin 27 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BhaveshDiwan
I unequivocally oppose this. Absolutely horrendous idea... When people at Youtube can ask for Subscription towards their hard work; I see nothing wrong in asking for Accept or Upvote for the effort they put in answering to a question.... And what about noobs who benefitted from the answer but doesn't know how they can return the favour, although they want to!? — BhaveshDiwan 17 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BhaveshDiwan
I unequivocally oppose this. Absolutely horrendous idea... When people at Youtube can ask for Subscription towards their hard work; I see nothing wrong in asking for Accept or Upvote for the effort they put in answering to a question.... And what about noobs who benefitted from the answer but doesn't know how they can return the favour, although they want to!? — BhaveshDiwan 55 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Security Hound
Your edits only make your question eligible to be upvoted, it’s not a guarantee, they are not guaranteed to be upvoted. Since question bans are never caused by a single bad question, but instead a prolonged, pattern of asking poorly received questions the best way forward is to wait 6 months for your next question — Security Hound 58 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by BhaveshDiwan
I unequivocally oppose this. Absolutely horrendous idea... When people at Youtube can ask for Subscription towards their hard work; I see nothing wrong in asking for Accept or Upvote for the effort they put in answering to a question.... And what about noobs who benefitted from the answer but doesn't know how they can return the favour, although they want to!? — BhaveshDiwan 27 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by PM 2Ring
Banning comments linking to Help or relevant meta pages is over the top, IMHO. — PM 2Ring 49 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by PM 2Ring
Maybe it's just me, but I detect more than a little irony in saying "It's not possible for you to educate the newbies without making them feel pressured. And if you persist, we'll suspend you". — PM 2Ring 28 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Machavity
@Larnu Which is what I admitted in the question itself. We got the cart before the horse here. This is your opportunity to offer feedback like the rest of the community. I don't expect anyone to just accept this and a hard and fast declaration of any rule without discussion would have even more poorly received. But I felt (as did other mods) that we needed to slog through this process to craft policy with the community. Nobody expected this to be easy or popular. — Machavity ♦ 56 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Dugnom
@CodyGray Regarding your first comment on this comment thread. I want to point out, that according to the tour accepting the answer literally says Accepting doesn't mean it's the best answer, it just means that it worked for the person who asked. . I see this as either: 1. The tour has to be changed to reflect the meaning you are describing 2. "Thanks, it worked" literally means the same as accepting an answer. — Dugnom just now
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
Then the edit should be rolled back , @Machavity . I, honestly, thought that your comments in the question were on regards to that mods had previously stated in conversation (to users) a stance that differed to the LL inked answer; Cody has certainly told me something in the past that contradicted the answer and when I sked them to address that, by means of an edit and announcement, neither occured and no response was given. I suspected that many others had similar experiences. — Larnu 57 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Gimby
Sigh. "Please accept it as the solution". That's not what the acceptance mark is for... And this is why we can't have nice things, we're so bad at communicating the truth. — Gimby 48 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
My point is, if you want this to be a proposal, don't enforce the change first, and then propose; undo your mistakes (which you can easily do), and then make the proposal. — Larnu 5 secs ago
 
1:49 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by xxbbcc
It feels like the moderator team is just looking for ways to make SO a little worse. I don't know if this is indeed the case but really, any time I read something on Meta now, I just use SO a little less. — xxbbcc 52 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Machavity
@Larnu The full chain there is a moderator removed outdated guidance that such comments are acceptable. The mistake moderators made (which, again, I admitted) was we started enforcing a heretofore unstated rule that such comments are not acceptable. The edit there makes the post neutral to this discussion. It does not contain any new rules by itself. Reverting the edit doesn't change any of that. — Machavity ♦ 24 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
So what you're saying is, is the mods are enforcing this rule, while discussing it's proposal, @Machavity ? — Larnu 28 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
"It does not contain any new rules by itself." I disagree with this, removing the permission to do something is in itself a change of the rules. — Larnu 56 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Machavity
@Larnu To my knowledge we've stopped for now. The comments have always been removable and continue to be removed. We just want to be able to warn users about overusing these comments. I'm sorry if that's not been clear — Machavity ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Sylvester Kruin
@CodyGray Thinking of this comment, do you (the moderators) have any data regarding the negative emotional effects of these comments, or the fact that users are more likely to take them as negative than not? Even if that data is just your experience. I'm genuinely curious, and I'd really appreciate a response. — Sylvester Kruin 29 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
Thanks, @Machavity . That does alleviate some of my concerns here. — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
Only the OP can answer why they deleted the question; maybe because they got the answer they wanted and therefore wanted to hide the evidence. /shrug — Larnu 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by manjiro sano
Oh okay, I thought someone was deleting it because hadn't understand what he meant. — manjiro sano 41 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
"It was deleted just now by the post author." — Cody Gray ♦ 30 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by manjiro sano
Yah nvm, I jumped into conclusions when I saw the downvotes @CodyGray — manjiro sano 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Cody Gray
Downvotes don't automatically delete anything — Cody Gray ♦ 38 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by manjiro sano
Yah, its because I usually see questions with 2/3 downvotes, and are closed — manjiro sano 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Larnu
Closed and deleted aren't the same thing, and neither are downvotes and close votes, @manjirosano . — Larnu 18 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine
[ Boson ] New comment posted by manjiro sano
Sorry for my stupidity. Have a good day ^^ — manjiro sano 18 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by chivracq
Yeah, well, then you can maybe post your Rule as an Answer/Solution, you possibly won't be the "only one" getting annoyed by those Mails..., and that might "incite" the Developers to add some 'Opt Out' Setting/Option to that Func/Notif... (Or they'll change the Sentence/Keyword(s) you used for the Rule, ah-ah...! Spam and Anti-Spam is often a "Cat & Mouse" Game...!) — chivracq 1 min ago
 
2:46 PM
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Nick stands with Ukraine
Does the status-declined only refer to comments which explain how to accept/upvote or all relevant comments? Comments explicitly asking for acceptance/upvoting should 100% be suspendable for — Nick stands with Ukraine just now
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Machavity
@NickstandswithUkraine Blatant vote begging has never been acceptable in any form. This was mainly aimed at the folks who were leaving lots of comments trying to be nicer in reminding folks to vote/accept. We were wanting to warn those folks off. That's what we're not moving forward with — Machavity ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Braiam
@Lundin there is already something of the sort, but it just allows you to remove the comment with a single flag. — Braiam 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Nick stands with Ukraine
@Machavity 👍understood — Nick stands with Ukraine 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Ed Morton
I have 2 comments I post related to this - 1) When a user posts a question and has never accepted an answer I post I see you've never accepted an answer to any of your questions, please read https://stackoverflow.com/help/someone-answers and then fix that. and when a user thanks me for my answer and tells me it works but they don't accept any answers then I comment You're welcome, please see https://stackoverflow.com/help/someone-answers for what to do next. Thanks to this new rule by doing that my account was suspended and I was accused by the mods of "shaming" the people I was helping ` — Ed Morton 1 min ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Nick stands with Ukraine
@EdMorton You've already received an apology for that at the top of the post. — Nick stands with Ukraine 40 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Ed Morton
If we're not allowed to direct people to the someone answers page then why does it exist? Since it exists - what can we say/do to help people learn about accepting answers? This new rule is an absurd, harmful, waste of time for everyone concerned. — Ed Morton 36 secs ago
[ Boson ] New comment posted by Ed Morton
@NickstandswithUkraine no, I didn't. The apology in the question is for not telling us their decree, not for coming up with it in the first place and not for the extremely negative comments I (and I expect others) received about "shaming" other posters and "begging" for points. — Ed Morton 22 secs ago
 
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