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10:00 PM
Graphql, express
 
you're a lovely person
 
@MadaraUchiha I've used it in a few personal projects now. It's pretty fricken sweet
 
we should get graphql involved tho
 
Thank you
 
10:00 PM
Meteorite: Like meteor, but more grounded
 
To be perfectly fair, the reason I almost universally hate SPAs is that almost no one gets the router right
 
agnostic enough to be used in node, and in the client
 
The back button doesn't work or doesn't work as you expect
 
because I'm a professional jquery scripter
 
If it does work, then the scroll is fubard when you go back one page in the past or future
 
10:01 PM
I'm using a "router" that is just the url-pattern library wrapped with an observable
 
i've solved all that. can solve again
 
Or sometimes there are server-side redirects that don't happen with the client-side router
 
scrolling, too
 
I'm not saying it's unsolvable
All of those problems are easy
 
how do you advise me to test react applications?
 
10:01 PM
But so many get them wrong
 
Are you talking about scrolling state?
 
only in passing
 
@BenFortune If you go to a page, scroll down, click a link to another page, then hit the back button, your scroll position is preserved
 
@MadaraUchiha Ah
We can call it R17eact
 
That behavior needs to be explicitly implemented if you build your own client-side router
@Luggage it's like modal windows
Some of them are dismissable with ESC, some are not.
Some are dismissable by clicking outside, some are not.
Sometimes the X is on the left, sometimes it's on the right
Sometimes it's at the bottom as a "OK" button or some sort
 
10:03 PM
indeed.
 
It's maddening
Routing is the same, only it's even more crucial to get right
There are two things that every user expects, two contracts you must never break if you want to claim your UX is not broken
Scrolling with the mouse wheel, and the back button
If any of those is broken or behaves unexpectedly (I'm looking at you sites that hijack scroll), You are instantly confusing and frustrating
 
Who hurt you?
 
smooth scrolling
 
smooth scroll is about as fun as a smooth condom
4
 
lol
 
10:05 PM
@ssube Insta-adopted
 
I don't think you can adopt me dude
 
I know where he lives, Madara
 
towc runs into the room "What did I miss? Are people getting adopted in here?"
 
We can go door to door in Como until we find him
then you can forcibly adopt him
 
more likely we just end up playing racing games
 
10:06 PM
@ndugger Not since 1865
 
The combination of both of those things being broken in so many applications I've seen, is what causes me to hate SPAs on a fundamental level
especially when there's no real reason to do so.
 
a lot of that is just people going overboard with features and forgetting experience
excited young pups
 
indeed. I had the intentional of re-implementing all of this from my for-pay project into my boilerplater but never got around to it
 
@ssube A lot of it is people cramming so much shit onto the server, so that it renders a page in 5 seconds
 
routing with auto-scroll behavior, consistent modals
 
10:07 PM
So instead of having the normal waiting experience of the browser loading the page
You get to instantly switch the page, and load the data later
 
That, I never did ^
 
well, people do not like to thing about their data model in the big picture
 
load data first, then render. w/ loading indicator (a compromise for simplicity)
 
also, folks forget to bootstrap data
 
@Luggage If you render after you load the data, why do you need an indicator?
 
10:08 PM
or include necessary bootstrapping data
 
to know that it's doing something after you click to navigate
 
@Luggage So the data is loader after the page is rendered
Not before
 
No, before. Well, the NEW page isn't rendered until the minumum data for it has arrived
Click, render loading indicator, wait..., new page renders w/ data.
(again, a compromise)
 
Well, now that my Q was solved, I feel relieved. Time to go home, eat several burritos, and pass out in my bean bag chair.
Bye, famsquads
 
@ndugger o/
 
10:11 PM
🚽
 
@KevinB I'm sorry to hear you are constipated.
 
I think the fact that Stack Overflow is a website in a fairly large scale which presents data and information without resorting to SPA practices, should give many players a hint that it's not required to provide a good experience.
 
sure, but SO could have been an SPA and provided the same experience. A few things might get tricky to get 100% the same, but really close
and SO has other reasons NOT to be an SPA. It benefits from caching and search indexing way more than an internal LOB app might
 
they did a great job of grouping data so that each page changes infrequently
I am thoroughly convinced that a good understanding of your data and its structure leads to better UX
 
s/UX/everything.
like games.
some of the best games have a clear data structure.
 
10:20 PM
@MadaraUchiha correct
 
Yeah, we're planning on replacing that with a slack webhook or something
 
sounds good, that's what we do
 
But I'm actually fine with letting it spam you with security warnings as punishment for not using a normal tool for so long.
 
do you have or are planning to set up CI
 
Might add Benji's gmail account to that too.
 
10:22 PM
emails are a normal tool
 
emails are normally ignored
 
@Mosho Not for that, and not for thousands of error messages
Automatic emails are almost universally ignored.
 
[JIRA] and nope
 
Also, a gmail account? :D
 
I filter them all to various folders that end up getting sent to the trash
 
10:23 PM
You couldn't even have been bothered with opening an @tipranks account for this :D
I keep getting surprised with the nuggets of "Ain't nobody got time fo' dat" I find in the code
 
trying to cut corners, only to find they were never installed? :P
 
we just push those notifications off to a log (not email) and if more than n occur in a short period of time, THEN we get an email or phone notification.
 
@KevinB The idea is to let QA know when an updated version with bugfixes has been deployed to staging
So that they can verify
The QA cycles are very short in our companies. Tickets are opened and closed in minutes.
 
ah, so that kind of notification
i was thinking more of monitoring type notifications
errors, slow requests, etc
 
Yeah, not that kind, although we do have some of those delivered in mails too.
 
10:27 PM
when i started here all errors were beign sent to inboxes
 
Most of them have been since transferred to tools like Application Insights
 
was a pain the ass when shit hit the fan
get 5000 emails in the matter of minutes
 
What do you use nowadays? Sentry?
 
newrelic
 
Java backend?
 
10:28 PM
yup
coldfusion
 
only thing heavier than newrelic :P
 
Yeah, I hear it's great for the Java ecosystem, not so great for pretty much anything else
 
it's pretty good. A few months ago their agent had a bug that caused it to use up too much CPU
but they got that fixed thankfully
 
Having said that, it seems to pretty much be the ruling theme with analytics and log aggregation
 
I'm not a big fan of their web app
 
10:29 PM
Same goes for Application Insights and Azure
 
I love their insights and infrastructure apps
 
Works great when tightly coupled to Azure, not so much otherwise.
 
at first i hated infrastructure, but they improved it since launch
Hated it because it replaced the free "servers" app that did what i needed
 
I hear good things about Sentry though
 
and didn't immediately display the info i was looking for
 
10:31 PM
Didn't get a chance to try it.
 
we use Sentry for some stuff, it seems decent
Rollbar as well
 
never heard of sentry
sentry.io?
 
Datadog for older stuff, CloudWatch + Prometheus + Grafana for new stuff
we used Splunk and New Relic for a while at my last place
 
@KevinB Yeah
@ssube Right, but again, those are almost exclusively for the JVM-based family of languages
 
only problem we have with newrelic is i'd love to use more of their services, but we're just priced out of them.
 
10:32 PM
@MadaraUchiha totally
I would almost consider them legacy cloud monitoring tools, with DataDog close to joining them
they all start to really fall down when you're working with large numbers of short-lived boxes, containers, spot instances, etc
and the pricetags are wtf
 
newrelic added a new pricing strategy recently for containers
 
we're paying datadog something like 8% of our AWS bill
 
our AWS bill is so small
 
We're using sentry, it's pretty sweet
 
so... hard to justify paying a whole lot for monitoring
 
10:34 PM
I recently picked up a few RIs for personal use and made a cluster out of em
 
just running a few T2 mediums
 
@phenomnomnominal One of the managed tiers? Or self hosted?
 
managed
might move to self hosted soon
 
function foo({a,b=a/2}) {
	console.log(a,b)
}
foo({a:10});
 
for scale, price, performance, uptime?
 
10:36 PM
fuck, that's awesome
didn't think I'd be able to use an arg as anothers default
js is always surprising me
 
:garlic:
 
if we added new relic's browser montoring, it alone would cost more than our monthly AWS fees to cover the number of pageviews we're getting
 
er, holy water
 
self hosting is appealing from a data security POV
and also uploading sourcemaps to wherever they're hosted adds like 6 minutes to our build, cause NZ :/
 
s/data/job/ :P
 
10:38 PM
What type of sourcemaps are you using?
Use a faster one
 
It's not about generating them
literally the upload is slow
 
either advent of code is too hard for me, or i think i can do it better than best... cant figure out which of the two it is
 
we're 50 or so webpack bundles, so there's quite a bit of JS
 
@MadaraUchiha that would mean going to lian and asking her to do it
aka nope
 
10:40 PM
@Mosho puh-leeze
So you ask her for one, and use a dummy email while waiting, and when she returns to you you replace.
What bothers me isn't that you guys did it
 
I did the middle third
 
Are you running node and react at the same port perhaps? — MikaS 3 hours ago
 
It bothers me more that you know that it was a hack, and you know there's a better solution, and you also knew what that solution was, and you still didn't implement it.
 
it's not a hack
 
10:42 PM
@KevinB it sounds stupid, but their next comment makes more sense
 
@Mosho Ask anyone here
Describe the problem and the solution
 
@here is it a hack
 
yes
all you do are hacks and plugins
it is known
 
well then
 
The problem: QA needs to be notified when a new version is uploaded to staging environment.
The solution: Create a dummy gmail account, and use that in nodemailer to send an email to a (hardcoded) list of emails.
Hack or not hack?
 
10:44 PM
hack
 
just because it's a gmail account?
 
@Mosho No, because it's email, because it's not a company email, and because the list is hardcoded and not a proper exchange mailing list
 
^
who uses email :P
 
they wanted emails
I gave them emails
 
hardcoded, gmail, and nodemailer?
a) never do your own anything related to email
 
10:46 PM
Worth noting that I don't want to cause a shooting range here with you as the target
But "it's not a hack"?
 
it may not be the pinnacle of software engineering
 
You aren't that naive, or incompetent. I know you know better.
 
primitive is the right word
but, I guess it's subjective
to me hacks are something entirely different
 
I vote for hack
 
I wouldn't do that today because I would and do use real deployment tools
 
10:53 PM
@Linkgoron lol
 
vote, hack,
 
yeah, obviously it was a long time ago. now you would do it differently. :P
Well, for @Mosho's sake, I must say that it usually did work.
 
if anyone is confused, @Linkgoron works at tipranks too
 
I'm confused, if that counts
 
@Linkgoron Hi confused, I'm Madara.
 
10:57 PM
😯
 
@MadaraUchiha I assume you think FTP deployments are a hack too
 
lol
 
@Mosho They aren't, they're just very slow and painful.
 
you mean break halfway through deployments?
 
They're just terribly inefficent
 
10:58 PM
And stateful, and lack transactions
 
but not a hack?
 
they're a great way to deploy half the files to half the servers
 
@Mosho It's not a hack because it doesn't cost you more or less to use other better solutions
Tools that don't provide better tools (looking at you Azure) to deploy are terrible tools
 
they kinda do
we used (use?) them
 
Yeah, Git or Windows only
 
10:59 PM
you can use git.
 
Git has its own problems, I've researched the topic quite extensively
 
git is not a deploy tool
 
@ssube Not with that attitude.
 
if it ever decides the index is dirty, you pretty much have to blow away the directory
so you may as well just make a copy every time
 
@ssube That's exactly what I've tried to do in my experiments
 
11:01 PM
it will guarantee the right content and files, which is more than ftp can do
 
That's not where I got stuck.
 
or capistrano
where did you have problems?
I'm sure there are other issues
 
I got stuck where I can only have one git deployment, and 3 projects I need to deploy onto the same webapp
 
@SterlingArcher Ohai
 
Which is admittedly kind of a limitation imposed on us by ourselves, and not by Azure
But it kind of outlines the faults of using Git solely as a deployment medium
 
11:02 PM
yeah
git with a script is where it's at
(which is what gitlab, travis, etc do)
 
No, I would have wanted scp, or sftp, or rsync, or any other such open source alternative
But nah
 
kubernetes with gcloud was the easiest deployment infrastructure I ever tried
 
the first 2 have the same problem as ftp
they can break midway through, etc
 
@Mosho to your earlier question, yes the direction we're taking now is CI with a slack webhook for notification
 
you're much better off using an artifact produced previously
rsync and git are better, but not good
 
11:04 PM
@Mosho did you use the gcloud console to do all of that?
or is there some other way
 
@NathanJones CLI
 
kubectl works
 
I've started using Ubuntu regularly at work already, forcing @Linkgoron to deploy for me until the CI is complete, this ensures that the CI will be completed soon despite workloads :D
 
gcloud creates clusters and adds to kubectl config
the rest with kubectl
 
Alternatively, I might get fired, who knows
 
11:06 PM
what do you do about photoshop
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm short on manpower, you're safe for now
 
@Mosho I let Eyal and co. use it.
 
don't you have to implement their designs
 
@Mosho We moved to Zeplin since before I entered the company.
 
eh
mixed feelings
but if it works for you
 
11:07 PM
I'm not extremely happy with it
And I don't know how much of it is because they are hacking it together with photoshop instead of using Photoshop's tools properly, and how much because PSD is fucking terrible and I should be thankful that Zeplin can even render anything.
 
the problem was, iirc, that they (gershon and friends) have to be taught to produce psd's in a certain way
 
I think they skipped that part anyway..
 
isn't it funny how with almost any tool the easy way and the right way are far removed
 
except k8s <3
 
@Mosho I do believe that it is your job as a professional of any kind to learn (and hope to master) the tools you work with
Whether it's Photoshop, or react-redux.
And if you fail to do so, you are not a professional.
 
11:12 PM
only if he fails to get paid for it
 
there's a slim chance the tool is at fault
 
@ssube while true, developers have a tendency to blame the tools to easily
 
I think you were being offered Madura's job, ssube.
oh
 
lol
@Linkgoron oh, I know. Running CI teaches you that real quick.
> Hey, Nexus is broken because this package gave me a 404
 
Yes, the job is obviously open to any competent developer here.
 
11:13 PM
> npm is broken too, then, cause it can't the package either
^ happens twice a week
 
f'in developers
 
I hate users (developers are my users)
 
I usually blame the database for my server errors
 
@Linkgoron I usually just blame @Mosho
 
i have noone to pass blame to
 
11:15 PM
"500 Internal Server Error"
- Dangit Mosho!
 
blame yourself
it's tried and true
 
blame yester-you
 
@MadaraUchiha I know you do. I'm usually there
 
I do it all the time
 
pretty sweet gig just babysitting a compiler
 
11:15 PM
or even better, your parents
 
ssube's job
 
and if all else fails
blame obama
 
s/compiling/terraforming/
 
@Luggage thank god for uglify-es
 
Benji left right? blame him
 
11:16 PM
fuckin elasticsearch taking 20 minutes to set up a cluster
backups take 20-30 minutes to restore because we have too many codes
 
i usually blame the kevin that was here before me, but that doesn't really work anymore, he's been gone too long
 
he never left
 
fuck, it doesn't look like I'll be able to get around learning openscad. openjscad doesn't translate well enough from openscad and things like union don't work the same
 
I noticed that with your crystal generator
 
I'm sure I could figure it out, but it's making learning difficult because the docs are terrible/don't exist
 
11:18 PM
it doesn't work in openjscad
 
you need to decorate the file
 
omg, i'm sorry.
 
//!openscad or something
 
orly
 
//!OpenSCAD

.. codes
 
11:19 PM
openscad preview vscode
^ What I am going to go google and be disappointed about
 
module foo() {
  union() {
    a();
    b();
	foo();
  }
}
doesn't translate well to js, because you have to return the union from the main() func
again, I'm sure I could figure it out, but it's a pain in the ass because of the lack of docs.
and union in js joins the argument list
 
let's write our own cad
with blackjack etc
 
so build a array recursivly then return union(...arr);
best I can come up with, but then the translate and rotate funcs don't work the same
 
render() {
    return <union>
        <a />
        <b />
    </union>;
}
 
PITA
 
11:21 PM
I love pita bread
 
also doesn't help that the software crashes like every 3-4 builds.
@Luggage WHY WOULD YOU SHOW ME SOMETHING SO AWESOME AND SO HORRIBLY BROKEN!?
I hate and love you
 
yea.. i think I want to go the other way, just use real openscad
 
same
but then I have to learn it :P
I was hoping to avoid that.
modules and functions confuse me
 
the examples make it look kinda straightforward
But I haven't tried to make anything, just browsing
 
until you try to write your own and not just alter someone elses
at least, for me
 
11:25 PM
right, i get that.
 
Burrito is down; now onto the burrito bowl
 
so I qualified :)
 
I'm fat
 
mostly I think I'm just not used to thinking in 3d
vectors? is that the term I'm looking for?
how to keep track of objects in 3d space with translations and rotations
confuses the hell out of me
 
matrices
or position vectors and quaternions
 
11:27 PM
@KendallFrey learn openjscad and then teach me
 
or openscad
either one
 
I learned enough featurescript for me
Also try POV-Ray
Doesn't do anything you want to do but it's cool
 
lol
 
GUISE! Have you tried DyWorld, the Factorio mod?!!!
 
11:32 PM
no, I like it wet
 
good one
 
Meh, dry feels so raw tho
 
burrito bowl down. Now I feel so full that I might shit myself
uffdah
 
11:48 PM
@ssube have you used terraform
 

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