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3:00 PM
But I think that really sums up what's left to do: Shog9 explicitly asked us to write answers instead of commenting. So let's get to it, any ideas?
 
@Magisch Nice I missed that. So now we can banned for asking Joel to remove his abject wording in the post
 
user2654834
I have two daughters, work up to twelve hour shifts and write in my spare time. However, SO was the only online community to which I belonged, so it was important to me.
 
@Magisch Not arguing. My original comment merely asked what the purpose of the question was, and if it was intended for proposals on how to "take a stand", or something else
 
@Carpetsmoker The only comment on the question specifically says the further comments will be removed and directs you here.
 
@Carpetsmoker Mhm. I agree with you, but shog or other cms may not
 
3:01 PM
@meagar Aren't comments there to ask for clarification of the question?
 
I take it discussing in this room is allowed?
 
@JanDvorak Yes, definitely
 
That's exactly what my original comment did, so I know what sort of answer to write
 
No bans for talking here?
 
@Carpetsmoker Until they spin out of hand and you wind up with 300 deleted comments, yes.
 
3:01 PM
ffs Shog said on the question and in this chat room not to post more comments on the question, how is that even remotely unclear?
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What happened to the comment asking the wording to be revised?
 
@MathiasMüller Only if you are a CEO of something :)
 
@meagar I appreciate that, but a blanket let's-nuke-it-all policy doesn't seem very constructive. Obviously, you can let one comment remain undeleted, why not two or three?
 
the pinned message here. The only comment on the question. I don't understand why you guys are trying so hard to push the line and see what you can get away with here - you might disagree, but SE has spoken
 
Because I am genuinely confused what this question is trying to achieve. Many people are.
 
3:02 PM
13 hours ago, by Sklivvz
Joel, many of us in chat feel that calling the opposing view "immoral," "fundamentally un-American," "morally repugnant," and "frankly stupid," is actively harming the community's ability to discuss this issue rationally. Moderators have instructed us to obtain permission before trying to make edits. Would it be okay if someone edited out this provocative language? It may be necessary to rework some of the text around it a little bit to make it flow, of course. But we will preserve the intent of your message. If you'd rather do this yourself, that's fine, of course. — jpmc26 7 mins ago
3
it poofed
 
@enderland It's "unclear" because it's a highly unusual policy
 
@enderland I'm all in favort of Joel's stance, but I really dislike it when discussion is called "pushing the line" and "testing what you can get away with". That really implies persecution for opinion, and that would not be ok.
 
@Carpetsmoker that doesn't mean it's unclear. Shog said very clearly what will happen to future comments (and commenters)
 
@Carpetsmoker No, nothing about it is unclear. You just disagree with the new policy. The new policy itself is perfectly clear.
 
@Carpetsmoker What about raising awareness? Mobilizing support maybe? Maybe just the desire of having done something?
 
3:04 PM
@TomášZato come on, shog says "more comments will be deleted, post answers instead" and that he will suspend people continually commenting. engaging in that behavior absolutely is pushing a line
 
@MathiasMüller Comments are fair game across the network. This has nothing to do with this specific posts. If you're posting a comment instead of a question, you should expect it to be deleted eventually.
 
@enderland he also said "or lock the post". I'm still hoping for that alternative.
 
@enderland I didn't see the chat comment, but just from the actual comment, I understood it to be more like "I'll be removing further off-topic/chatty comments". That's how I interpreted it in the context of the rest of the comment text, anyway. But obviously that was an error on my part.
 
@Sklivvz can you pin that? this room is... as star happy as some of the code review chat rooms :o
 
3:07 PM
pinned
 
@Sklivvz is there any point in further discussing those things? I mean, it's been made abundantly clear that the CEO gets a special treatment and that we, as members, have 0 say in all of it.
 
do we have a meta.meta.stackoverflow.com yet?
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@Carpetsmoker I agree, but almost all of the original comments were also not constructive. There were about 200 comments going in a circular "this doesn't belong here/yes it does" argument that was going absolutely nowhere prior to their removal.
 
@AntP meta is also about the stackoverflow community so it's also meta.meta :-)
 
@Stijn that isn't really any different from any Meta discussion, now is it? That has never stopped us before. ;)
 
3:08 PM
@Bart heh, true :)
 
So, now that the "on-topic" meta post says "close", will that decision be adhered to by mods? If not, why?
Is it allowed to comment under the answers?
 
just be reasonable. don't argue with anyone. make useful actionable on-topic comments. don't comment if there are 20+ comments already (the question has 200+ deleted comments)
 
@Seth having read your answer, I feel compelled to point out that of the three (completely unreferenced and unsubstantiated) claims you present as "fact", only one is actualy almost true (the one about the 90 days, but not quite true either: all the order states is that a report will be submitted in 90 days). The other two are actually completely false.
Is is most certainly not a "well known fact" that terrorists disguise themselves as refugees. In fact, the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the past 10 years were perpetrated by people either born in the target country or legal resident
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@terdon Semantics here. The claim is disingenous in that yes, there are confirmed cases in which terrorists get in as refugees. The disingenous part however is that the vast majority of terrorists do not come in as refugees.
 
@terdon 90 days, yep. Regarding the green card business, that was the initial state that was reported. I updated my answer as @Magisch already pointed out that this was no longer the case.
 
3:14 PM
@Magisch Cases? Again, I only know of one and that was a European national. Either way, the claim presented as fact by Seth was "it's a well-known fact that terrorists do in fact disguise themselves as refugees". It's not.
@Seth 90 days for a report. Not 90 days and then it is no longer in force automatically.
 
@terdon I heard about one in europe earlier last year
 
@Magisch Yes, that one.
One example does not constitute a trend, let alone a well known fact.
 
@terdon What?
 
I miss the point of this debate, it's pretty easy to do some google and see that terdon is right.
 
> Sec. 15. Reporting. Except as otherwise provided in this order, the Secretary and the Attorney General shall each submit to the President a report on the progress of the directives contained in this order within 90 days of the date of this order and again within 180 days of the date of this order.
That's the only mention of 90 days in the text of the executive order.
 
3:17 PM
@terdon haven't you said that discussing politics here means that you implicitly agree with "time to take a stand" being treated as on-topic? ;-)
 
I'll dig it up when I get home from work
 
Yes, but the executive order is not the latest state.
 
Maybe there's some other law that applies and such orders are only valid for 90 days by definition, I don't know. But you are presenting 3 "facts" of which two are demonstrably wrong and one is unsubstantiated hearsay. It may well be true, but I have no way of knowing that from your answer.
 
@terdon One example that is known does constitute a well known fact that someone somewhere did this sometime. As you recall, I stated that claiming this is also disingenous for the other reasons you laid out.
 
@JanDvorak No, I said that posting an answer discussing the politics is implicit acceptance of the post's belonging where it is.
Chat is chat.
 
3:18 PM
@terdon "We will again be issuing visas to all countries once we are sure we have reviewed and implemented the most secure policies over the next 90 days"
 
Turns out no-one, not even Joel, knows where this all about ..
 
user2654834
German, UK and French intelligence agencies all state that terrorists committing acts of terror in brussels and paris entered the country posing as refugees
 
@Seth Where is that?
 
user2654834
It may not be a lrge problem in US, but in EU, it is a huge problem
 
@Magisch That is not a well known example of people doing that. I mean you don't say that it's well known fact that people get nobel prizes...
 
3:19 PM
Question's on hold again, by the way.
 
@terdon Section 3(c), I believe.
 
@TomášZato Hence why I called it disingenous. Semantically correct, but the word is unfit to convey the true meaning.
 
@KimberleyBarrass Uhm. You mean those people who were born and raised in France and Belgium? One of them, one, re-entered Europe through Greece, yes. But he was not even from one of the target countries.
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user2654834
I would perhaps suggest it is not 'well known' but it is certainly as factual a statement as we are likely to get from the intelligence comunitites
 
@KimberleyBarrass And it still causes a hell-of-a-lot fewer deaths than every day traffic.
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Also, most of the terrorists were nationals, not recent refugees
AFAIK
 
@KimberleyBarrass I'd love to see a link for that because I certainly haven't heard it. I have heard a lot of people claiming that is a danger, and it may even be one, but not claiming that it actually happens (note that happens != happened).
@Carpetsmoker All of them, actually.
 
Can't believe that there isn't Sekptics.SE post that covers this debate conclusively
 
Who thinks Joel's post has caused much more stirring here already than its topic will?
 
user2654834
it was in the Neue Osnabrücke Zeitung
 
3:21 PM
@Seth OK, but that's not what was actually signed into law.
 
preventing radicalisation inside your own borders is more effective then security-clearance-lv.3 treatment for every refugee as far as stopping terrorism is concerned... who would have known
 
Yeah, big surprise there.
 
@JanDvorak But that's a good thing imho. People are actually debating the issue, that's not bad that's good
 
@terdon You're right, but I do believe that Trump realised the impact that his order had
 
user2654834
A few other places too, but that actually produced the report.
 
3:22 PM
and thus reacted to the backleash by reducing the amount of days.
 
@terdon That's what I thought, but wasn't sure... Doesn't really matter, IMHO, because even if they were recent refugees it still wouldn't mean all refugees are terrorists or sympathizers (as some claim)
 
@TomášZato what will that achieve, though?
 
@Seth Maybe. I'm just pointing out that it's a little rich that you're presenting these things as "facts".
Unless you mean "alternative facts" :P
 
@terdon That stuff was so cringy.
 
Yeah.
 
3:23 PM
I thought I was watching a satire show.
 
user2654834
I would suggest 'well-known' is incorrect, but I wouldn't disagree with the fact that refugee streams have been used by terrorists. It is a vector of movement
 
That's how most of the world has been feeling for the past year.
 
I actually need to reword that though. What I initially meant to say while writing it was that "terrorists may very well disguise themselves as refugees"
 
In the words of one conservative pundit: "We have a President who has a more cavalier attitude towards truth" ... That's the most poetic way of admitting that the President is a bold-faced liar that I've seem
 
@terdon Only the past year?
 
3:24 PM
@terdon I proclaim hereby that gravity doesn't exist. This isn't a lie, just an alternative fact. feel free to test it out, alternative fact believers :op
 
@JanDvorak Awareness? Spread of information? Just look at those guys, they are clearly discussing some facts.
 
@Seth Well, it's watching this guy get elected that was so strange. And this isn't about his politics, it's about the very concept of electing a reality star to public office.
 
My strategy is to stay out of politics. If anyone is turning a country into a house of cards, I'll do my best to not get stuck underneath, and only watch as country after country tumbles into disrepair.
 
@terdon Well, tbh, both options were bad :)
 
Different issue.
 
3:26 PM
The post has been un-featured by Joel.
 
Comes down to preference I guess.
I think that both were unfit though.
 
@JanDvorak Then you're in the wrong chat.
 
@TomášZato I think he meant that kind of literal.
Staying out of politics as in not being a politican.
 
@Stijn Damage control?
I sure hope he didn't just dump that rant and logged off, only to come back now.
 
@Cerbrus I suppose
 
3:28 PM
@JanDvorak Understandable. I try to help others as much as I can without paying too much, if only to decrease the risk of seein countries after countries tumbling down.
 
@Cerbrus Probably did
 
I'm also amused at the fact that no moderator has decided to rollback Shog's edit. But our very similar ones were.
14 hours ago, by meagar
Joel decided to make the post, Joel chose his words, Joel is the CEO of a large tech company and some or all of that post might be quoted as an official SO statement
Yeah right.
 
@Seth More often though refugees don't disguise themselves. It's probably one of those risks that can be minimized but not completely eliminated unless you become ... a monster maybe?
 
@Tunaki An official SO statement. Which implies SO's users support that statement. I'd be more at peace if it was an "Official SE management statement".
 
@Trilarion Humans can't stop these. The collapse of democracy is just a symptom of an issue only God can solve.
 
3:30 PM
does SE.Politics have a Meta? if so, IMHO it should've been posted there
 
@Tunaki Shog is an employee of SO
 
@JanDvorak You're not actually serious, are you?
 
It should not be surprising that we'd bow to the decisions of SO employees
 
@Cerbrus Why not?
 
@cybermonkey Why would it be better there?
 
3:30 PM
@JanDvorak Okay...
 
@Trilarion What kind of monster do I become when I implement security screenings?
 
@Carpetsmoker Would be far more on-topic there.
 
@JanDvorak "a symptom of an issue only God can solve." <- that's why not
 
Ok, I can see someone trolling, I'm out
 
@cybermonkey What? Why? The whole point here is that the post wasn't in any way about SE/SO so it doesn't belong on any meta. If it were to go to politics, it should be on the main site (where it also would be off topic since it's not a question).
 
3:31 PM
I think the majority of people don't consider TSA an effective measure - not to mention efficient.
 
@cybermonkey No. Such a "question" would be closed in a heartbeat on politics as it's a rant, not a "question"
 
@Seth A small one maybe?
 
@Carpetsmoker same for Meta.SO
 
An ineffectual one?
 
Being probed is probably more effective than no measure at all.
 
3:32 PM
I get the reason why it was posted to Meta.SO, but it isn't the right place for a rant. Not from the CEO, not from anybody else. Doesn't he have a blog that he could've posted it in instead?
 
@cybermonkey He does.
 
@cybermonkey That exact point has been stated and discussed over and over for like 36 hours now
 
When I was told I couldn't take my screwdriver on board and was then served a drink in a glass container (which can very easily be broken to become far more dangerous than any screwdriver), I lost any little faith I might have had that screening is good for anything other than giving off a false sense of security.
 
@cybermonkey he sure does, a popular one at that
 
And he should've
 
3:36 PM
Oh, and ... it's reopened again. Five regular votes in five minutes.
@TomášZato will you return if I drop my argument?
 
phew, 98 close votes
 
Joel finally did something, well, is gone, whatever that means
 
surely if 100 people on meta think something should be closed enough to vote on it, it's at least contentious enough to lock for historical significance? It's clearly something that is not an example of a good, on-topic question, and is setting records for contentiousness
@MathiasMüller It means it won't be shown on the sidebar on every page, if that's what you're asking
 
I've seen several people here questioning why Stack Overflow moderators have stayed out of the discussions about this. First, we're just janitors and sometimes policemen. It's our job to clean up trash and break up fights, not to argue out policy. The community is having a healthy argument about this post without us, and I know that anything I say carries extra weight because of the diamond after my name.
 
@TylerH No, that's not what I meant but thanks anyway ;-). I meant to ask why he is doing that.
 
3:44 PM
@BradLarson Isn't 'enforcing rules' part of your role, too?
@MathiasMüller Probably to lessen the attention it's getting
 
@TylerH enforcing != determining.
 
@BradLarson does that mean the binding reopen votes that have been cast have been cast incorrectly?
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@terdon They don't need to determine rules, they've already been determined
 
I think Brad's point is that this is, obviously, very contended so they're sort of waiting to see what the community decides.
 
and to be fair they've been determining the rules by casting binding reopen votes on the question to reopen it
 
3:46 PM
Which is what we want mods to be doing. When they don't, it tends to result in meta posts crying totalitarianism.
 
Some mods even cast multiple votes each.
 
I've flagged the question for historical lock so we'll see if they follow that rule either (forgive the grammatical awkwardness)
If anyone else had posted that rant verbatim, it would've been closed, locked, deleted and no one would have looked at it twice, and no mod would argue on its behalf
but because it's the CEO all of a sudden rules don't apply?
 
@TylerH Taking care of things the community can't handle themselves. Whether or not this post is appropriate is the subject of ongoing discussion: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/342480/… . Locking this question prevents further community interaction (answers, votes), and I didn't want to block further answers if I didn't have to.
 
@TylerH Yes, from what I've understood, that's exactly the case.
 
@BradLarson It's a rant. What kind of answers could it really attract that are worthwhile?
Honestly, it wasn't posed as a call to action (even though the title suggests that), nor was it posed as a question
It's closable for so many different valid reasons, and really reopenable for only invalid ones: "I agree with you about Trump" and "You're the CEO so you can do what you want"
At least so far as I can tell
 
3:49 PM
@TylerH people have been praising the top-voted one
 
@TylerH Even if that's the case, there is clearly an active discussion about it going on so I, for one, am very happy that Brad is staying out of it and letting us decide.
 
@JanDvorak it's praised because people are sympathetic to the poster's plight
the point is not whether we agree
it's whether the question belongs and/or should remain
I mean, it's now had 100 close votes cast on it. How many questions have ever received that many votes and what were their fates? Anyone handy with SEDE?
 
@TylerH Problem is, it's had about as many reopen votes as well.
 
@BradLarson In my opinion, the discussion was ongoing, by now it's clear that the community would like Joel's post to be removed; almost all the upvoted answers to the question you link to say that it is clearly off-topic.
 
@terdon I would be much happier if every mod were staying out of it. Specifically, not voting to reopen it, in some cases unilaterally
 
3:53 PM
This means that any executive mod decision is going to go against the wishes of a good chink of the community.
 
I think the question needs a lock. It's been closed an impressive number of times for a question that's only been around for a day. — RamenChef 46 mins ago
 
@terdon nah, the problem is, it's hard fewer reopen votes, and what's really problematic is that some of those early ones (and continued ones) are from moderators/employees. This gives the confusing signal that the question should remain open per company policy
 
@TylerH OK, but we were talking to Brad who braved the wrath of the chatroom and came here in good faith.
 
@terdon yes, the way to get something across to the moderator team and employee team is to tell a mod
 
Also try to take into account that this is a very sticky situation for a mod to be in.
I do not envy the SO mods at the best of times but I am very glad I haven't had to deal with this can of worms on my site.
 
3:56 PM
Martijn is the only non-employee who has cast a binding reopen vote (meager and Jeremy Banks both cast theirs as the fifth vote). That's his call, but I've stayed out of it.
 
I'm glad that Brad came here with an explanation. Thanks.
 
@BradLarson "meagar" :p
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