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6:00 AM
all I ask is that in making those statements, he follow site policy: Be Nice and post in the appropriate place.
Because I honestly believe Hillary would do more damage than Trump will at the end of it all.
 
but she's not president is she
 
user4639281
@Magisch I don't think jpmc has ever been against discussing this, but rather that both sides of the discussion should be respectful of each other.
 
I'm not really a Trump fan; I just... don't really have options.
 
I've never understood how people could possibly expect Hillary to do more "damage" than Trump
 
@TinyGiant the problem is the political divide has been getting so wide in the US that of either one side people believe the other side is dangerous enough that even holding that view makes you immoral
 
6:02 AM
But anyway, this post was something different. This post says, there's no rational explanation for believing the policy is a good idea. And that simply isn't true.
 
user4639281
@Magisch So you're saying that there can be no expectation of respectful political discourse?
 
I mean it's easy to see if you're looking at it from an european perspective: To us, the american anything-but-far-left-wing is so far right that it'd be illegal over here.
@TinyGiant Have you seen any, here or otherwise?
Politics get heated over the smallest disagreements. If the disagreements are that big, I'm very surprised the US isn't in civil war yet.
 
user4639281
@Magisch I've seen plenty of respectful political discourse in here since we've started
 
I don't know how much of it was US political vs SO political, but it's been pretty respectful.
 
Yeah SO is the best avenue for that atm
 
user4639281
6:04 AM
My problem is that the post initializing the discussion starts it off by insulting the opposing view repeatedly and vitriolically.
 
look anywhere else on the web and people are calling for each other's death and execution on every corner
 
Even if you think the belief is based on total misinformation or that it ignores certain consequences or values, it's not as if you can say there's nothing the opinion could be based off of. And calling that "stupid" and "immoral" isn't going to change anyone's mind or make anything better.
 
I hope there are more love in this world, I wish love have substance & whoever voted to delete my answer gets more love and gain 10kg in the next year. Bye!
 
@TinyGiant Problem about this is that holders of the views like Joel's would argue from their perspective it's not a debate of ideas but a debate of pointing out why the oponents are so immoral that they should be removed from society
 
6:05 AM
thats the problem. It's almost never about ideas anymore. Either side believes the other needs to be excised from society in totality
 
user4639281
Which is in no way a constructive and respectful political discourse.
 
course it isn't
never can be
 
user4639281
Except that we've shown that we can have respectful political discourse and have opposing views.
 
If your views on a political action range from "I believe this is the right thing to do" and "I believe that this is so wrong and repugnant that anyone supporting it necessarily is too" then how can respectful discourse be possible
By not talking about it, but that's it
 
user4639281
Ad hominems are never necessary to make a political statement.
 
6:08 AM
unless the ad hominem is the political statement
The debate is long past policy now. It's almost exclusively about demonising the other side into a loss in the elections in 2020 now.
 
user4639281
@Magisch Well it depends on what evidence is supplied supporting the argument. I think the holocaust was morally repugnant, etc. and there is evidence to support many of the arguments I would use to support that position.
 
right
 
@Magisch Ironically, that's kind of what Hillary tried to do during the campaign... and it didn't work. (This isn't just my view. I've read articles by supporters about it.)
 
@jpmc26 of course
trump did it too, and it worked better for him, since he hit the right topics.
 
of course.
 
6:11 AM
right
I'm just saying, I only expect this debate to get more heated
SO as a company did take a position now, so we'll have to live with it
 
But it doesn't have to at SO.
 
user4639281
This debate has died down quite a bit from previous.
 
user4639281
or do you mean the global debate?
 
Let's see how that works out during the monday coming-to-work rush in europe
 
@Magisch Ehhh, I'm still unclear whether SO the company or Joel the individual has taken a stance here
 
6:12 AM
And when america wakes up on monday
 
that was my entire goal: to help SO find it's way to being a place where people can actually be together and disagree without despising each other.
 
@meagar That's just semantics
If the CEO and major shareholder spolsky takes a stance, the company does
@jpmc26 I don't disagree. Be aware though that many people's vision of the site includes removing anyone holding opinions that they disagree with so strongly
Kind of like people like to ban a flat earther from skeptics.SE
 
I held out hope that all the talk about respectful political discussion actually means something, but I guess I can't anymore.
Because by official policy, SO is supposed to be the kind of place I describe.
 
We're at a point where people consider the opposing viewpoint disrespectful to hold.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 Official SO policy only matters if you're not an official of SO
 
6:16 AM
I'm not sure it even matters if you aren't now.
 
What joel says is SO policy
doesn't get more official then a CEO statement
 
user4639281
@Magisch I don't consider either viewpoint disrespectful to hold, and I agree with spolsky's position, other than the whole offensive part.
 
I mean with regard to how you talk to people with an opposing political view.
 
depends on the view
I'm not necessarily respectful towards neo nazis
 
I'd rather be respectful to too many people than not enough.
 
6:17 AM
well at least not overly
 
user4639281
@Magisch would you be actively disrespectful and insulting to neo nazis?
 
if they start causing problems, ban 'em. no regrets. if they actually try to reason out and defend their views, let them have their say.
 
@TinyGiant I wouldn't give them a platform
If one shows on my minecraft server for instance, they're banned immediately.
Suppose it's easier to do that since openly being a neo nazi is illegal here
 
I'm not entirely sure how you define neo nazi.
 
definition is quite narrow
 
user4639281
6:20 AM
@Magisch For sure, but if spolsky made a post about how neo nazis are the scum of the earth, and a neo nazi came on defending their culture with objective arguments while being polite and respectful, would you actively be disrespectful and insulting?
 
@TinyGiant No rational or non-repugnant argument to defend neo-nazism exists
assuming that that's possible is a fallacy
 
but that's exactly the assumption Joel makes about this view.
 
right
 
user4639281
I'm not saying that one can be made and be correct, I'm saying that if someone tried to defend themselves in that case would you actively be disrespectful and insulting?
 
we all make that assumption at some point, the difference is just where we draw the line
@TinyGiant Probably not, but I'd remove them from the platform if I controled it
 
6:22 AM
how is neo nazi defined?
 
(and had the mandate to set such policy, for instance on my mc server, I'm the co owner, so I can do that)
 
user4639281
going for a smoke
 
> Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive the far-right-wing tenets of Nazism. The term neo-Nazism can also refer to the ideology of these movements. ... Holocaust denial is a common feature, as is incorporation of Nazi symbols and admiration of Adolf Hitler.
That's from wikipedia and reasonably accurate
 
k. wasn't sure if it might mean different things different places.
also, the "far right" or America is not the same as the "far right" of Europe, just fyi.
 
not entirely
 
6:24 AM
not sure if that makes a difference on whether I'd go to jail.
 
well
I wouldn't test it
 
lol.
 
It's gotten out of hand a bit lately
 
"Far right" here is generally a combination of economic policy that seeks to minimize government involvement and social policy that sticks with traditional Christian values.
at least... that's what it's supposed to be. obviously, politicians calling themselves "right wing" don't always believe or do those things.
 
user4639281
I guess I'm getting a little off-track with the analogy here. My point is that stating a political position while insulting any opposing view is not seeking input and discussion, it is seeking validation of the political position stated.
 
6:28 AM
@TinyGiant Did you think the point of the post was to discuss?
 
user4639281
@Magisch given the [discussion] tag, yes
 
The point of the post obviously was to incite action and strenghten the resolve of those already opposed to the executive order
you can say thats a misuse of the tag (it is)
 
@TinyGiant I'm less convinced. There are only so many tags.
 
If the aim of the post was to discuss you wouldn't start with "I believe this and anyone who doesn't is repugnant and immoral"
 
@meagar Maybe those tags should be viewed as an indication that certain content doesn't have a place on Meta by design. =p
 
6:30 AM
I'm not entirely sure what Joel wanted to accomplish, but SO's Q&A format is not good at open-ended discussion
 
user4639281
@meagar then maybe a moderator only [call-to-action] tag is necessary.
 
@jpmc26 I've never disputed that
 
[call-to-action] sounds a lot like [feature-request] to me.
 
@meagar Whether you disputed it with words or not, you disputed it with actions.
 
@jpmc26 Yeah. If anyone else had posted that it'd be deleted. Though meta design and policy kinda ceases to limit when you're the guy who could unilaterally set that policy
 
6:31 AM
Joel's post was certainly unprecedented, and definitely shoe-horned into a site that wasn't well built to support it, but that's what happens when you're the CEO of Q&A website and you want to use that website to make a statement
 
user4639281
Apparently:
 
user4639281
> There is no "stand" to take here – there are no "sides". Trump is a bigoted, misogynistic bully and the only moral position is to oppose him and his ilk at every turn. That includes on sites like SO, in your everyday life, how you spend your money, and of course, if you are a U.S. citizen, how you vote. – No Grabbing 17 mins ago
 
@meagar You can't sit on the fence here and try to say you're not responsible because you didn't do anything. You chose not to push for policy enforcement, when that's your responsibility. Which means you decided that it was appropriate.
 
user4639281
There is no hope for a respectful political discussion here.
 
it got deleted because it's not Joel.
 
6:33 AM
@jpmc26 Do you expect a moderator to take action against their CEO?
 
@Magisch I expect them to at least reach out and confront them in some form.
 
user4639281
@Magisch I expect moderators to not take action against the current site policy for any reason
 
realisticly, what the CEO says goes in a privately owned business
 
I'm not trying to sit on the fence. I honestly don't think this was a good format for the post, but I think it's Joel's right to make the post regardless
 
mods here wouldn't even post a comment asking if it was okay to edit out the inflammatory remarks.
@meagar Then your position is that Joel is above the rules.
 
6:34 AM
@jpmc26 In all fairness, I was asking other moderators how to reach Joel
 
lord knows if I was a mod I wouldn't touch that post with a 20ft barge pole
maybe I'd say something in TL or to the CMs, but not publicly
 
If he hadn't posted and then vanished, things probably would have gone very differently.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I think it is worse that moderators and employees acted in conflict with site policy both when they reverted edits which removed offensive wording and in reopening the question.
 
First, they write the site policy. Second, just because the metas split doesn't mean that discussing things which effect the entire place at MSO is off limits.
 
@meagar Why? No one at SO seems to care about this. He posted the problem content to begin with. Why do you think it would have gone differently?
 
user4639281
6:36 AM
The fact of the matter is that users are offended by the wording, myself included.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ no one here is really opposed to the question existing, only really the wording used to describe opposing views.
 
@TravisJ Seriously. Go read my answers. You don't know what we're advocating for.
 
@jpmc26 He could have actually addressed some of the comments like "Hey Joel will you edit your post" or "Hey Joel why did you post this" or "Hey Joel which stand are you referring to"
 
@jpmc26 - I know what your biased view is, thank you.
You have spewed it all over, and I am honestly shocked you finally put some semblance of your ranting in an answer.
 
@TravisJ My "biased view" is talk kindly to people who have different political opinions. Which, incidentally, is the "biased view" of SO, at least officially.
 
6:38 AM
@TravisJ We're having a pretty civil conversation here, please keep it that way
 
It wasn't kind to blast people in comments on the posts.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ I was originally for the existence of the meta post, and am currently and always have been for the political position, but am opposed to the some of the words used.
 
@TravisJ It's true that I got frustrated over the day. Which comments are you talking about? I may need to address them.
 
They are almost entirely deleted at this point.
@TinyGiant - The harsh tone is needed in his post, and from others.
There was a nice reconciliation tone being set by everyone, and unfortunately that kind of got drowned out by terrible injustice.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ I completely disagree that the wording used is necessary to have constructive and respectful political discourse.
 
6:41 AM
@TravisJ Are you referring to my original ones on the post, or others?
 
Mostly the original post. That poor user, what was their name? Why did you and JasonC act so mean to them? Anyway, as stated, they are deleted at present.
 
Actually, they're here in chat.
 
@TinyGiant - Sorry, but there is no discourse. Who do you think is having a conversation anymore? It is action versus action.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ We've had plenty of constructive and respectful political discourse on the subject in here today thank you very much.
 
@TravisJ Are you talking about the three way argument with "Litty"?
 
6:43 AM
Yes @meager
 
user4639281
We've also seen bigotry and other kinds of non-constructive disrespectful discourse in here today.
 
That was one that stood out to me, there were others as well.
That is unfortunate @TinyGiant.
 
@TravisJ Could you point to some specific messages to Litty you think were mean? I was a lot less frustrated and was still gathering my thoughts at that point.
 
@TravisJ I think you might be somewhat misremembering that conversation
 
It seemed that way to me.
 
user4639281
6:45 AM
@TravisJ It is unfortunate, and not helped by the fact that the wording used in the question is inherently offensive to any who would oppose the political view stated.
 
You can start from the beginning and read the first ~150 chat messages, which were all the comments below the original post: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/134324/2017/1/29
 
As I stated in response to that note (which was also then purged during Shog's all comments are removed thing, which I do agree with), there is no political view presented in the post. It is a document, which is currently placed on stay from a Federal judge, and will more than likely be struck down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional.
 
user4639281
I'm not opposed to the political view stated, I just want the political discourse to be respectful and constructive.
 
I have read them @meager, I have followed this, I just thought that the complaining about the post existing or being relevant to MSO was done with.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ There is most definitely a political view stated in that post, the entire post is a political view.
 
6:47 AM
You are definitely reading beyond the post to his views. You can infer his views, but the post itself specifically mentions the seven country ban.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ The complaining about the post existing or being relevant to MSO is mostly done with.
 
@TravisJ I'm looking back through it now. Everything I said to Litty was focused on my own thoughts and responses to the attacks being made against people who aren't directly opposed to the order.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ The political view is that the ban is <insert insulting statements>
 
@TravisJ I find the mention of "building walls" to be representative of a political view that doesn't have to do with the document being discussed.
 
@TravisJ I even told Jason to back off when I thought it was getting out of hand.
 
6:50 AM
@4castle - Okay, fair enough.
 
I have bent over backwards to try to remain polite in all this.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I can definitely agree with that statement.
 
There are probably a few instances where I didn't completely succeed, but I think they're few and far between and not grossly over the line.
 
Even with those two words in there though, it is still addressing the act of unconstitutional acts.
9 hours ago, by Neysofu
"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." — Thomas Jefferson
 
user4639281
@TravisJ It is still a political view.
 
6:51 AM
It is a fact that it is unconstitutional.
 
@TravisJ Whether it's injustice is a political view.
It may be a right one (or not), but it is still political.
 
Unalienable rights.
 
@TravisJ Notice that you're the only one trying to debate the issue itself here.
That should tell you something about what our objections are.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ It's still all political views and arguments.
 
I know, because when I looked at what I thought would be a transcript it was an active discussion about issues.
This is chat, I left this out of the post itself.
 
user4639281
6:54 AM
@TravisJ I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean
 
Read transcript to mean inactive, merely a recording of past events.
 
I'm not sure why you're surprised given all the discussion about whether Joel's post is appropriate to begin with. Certainly, discussing the appropriateness of a post is on topic.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ Ahh, you expected the discussion to end once the comments were moved to chat?
 
For the most part
 
user4639281
6:56 AM
Boy were you mistaken
 
lol
inorite
 
@TravisJ Why?
 
I thought that it was pretty cut and dry that Joel's post was relevant, especially given the call for CEO's to sound off.
Adam's comment had the most votes out of any comment in the original set.
 
Then you still don't understand what we argued for.
 
I understand the minutia that requires the comment "this isn't relevant", but how many ways do you have to say it?
 
6:58 AM
How did that thing another user said go? Understanding your opponent's position is the first requirement for debate?
 
user4639281
For pretty well most of the day we've been arguing that some of the wording that can be interpretted as intending to silence any opposing view should be changed to be slightly more neutral.
 
@TravisJ No, you don't understand because no one is arguing it's irrelevant or that Joel doesn't have a right to express his opinion.
 
user4639281
^ that
 
I urge you to go back and reread my answers. Because you have not understand what they say.
 
But you are though, it is just a more nuanced version.
 
6:59 AM
Asking someone to be kind is not the same thing as telling them to shut up.
 
user4639281
No one here is saying the post should not exist, nor that the discussion should not happen, we only want constructive and respectful political discourse.
 
I even suggested ways that the post could remain pinned on all SE sites; how is that telling Joel he can't express his opinion?
 
Sorry, the pointed aspect of the post is the message he chose. While it may be painful to read some of those words and think that they may apply to those of similar views, it is far more painful to the thousands of people suffering damages right now as a result of the issue presented.
 
@TravisJ It's also painful to victims of 9-11 to hear people not even care about terrorism, if you want to get guilt trippy about it.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ But the wording used is not required to get the point across, and it discourages constructive and respectful discourse.
 
7:02 AM
But that isn't debate. That isn't the sharing of ideas or learning from each other.
 
"No one cares about terrorism" is a rather poor tangent to get into, I think everyone clearly considers terrorism a problem that needs to be addressed.
 
The issue here is that if Joel continues to use alienating speech, those people will continue to suffer because people will be unwilling to agree.
 
user4639281
Have you even looked at my edit that was rolled back?
 
Then why did you even play that card if it's a tangent?
 
user4639281
Let alone the fact that Joel has not rolled back a single edit to this point.
 
7:04 AM
I looked at the edits, but in all honesty, it was his message and that was how he presented it.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ Yet he did not roll back any of the edits
 
@TravisJ If I used those words about the pro-choice position on abortion, would that be okay?
 
It would still be tangential.
 
That isn't the point.
I'm asking if this sort of language is okay to use in this venue.
I gave it as an example that most people who agree with this meta post's political opinion probably won't agree with.
 
You are talking about anguish from paranoia, I am talking about people who are currently actually suffering loss.
 
user4639281
7:07 AM
It's like talking to a brick wall, all we want is constructive and respectful discourse which is something that I don't think spolsky would want to discourage. The wording in his question does discourage constructive and respectful discourse, which is easily remedied by a simple change to the wording that in no way changes the intent of the post. We have been told that we are required to ask permission before editing the post, yet we have been disallowed from asking permission.
 
@TinyGiant - I don't know why he chose to take a hands off approach.
 
user4639281
Anyone who opposes any part of the post will be silenced, plain and simple, and not by the poster himself, but by moderators and employees acting in conflict to the established site policies.
 
That is the radical nature we have been forced into apparently.
You should see what it is like outside right now, as opposed to in the comfort of the keyboard.
Have you looked at any pictures from any of the major airports at the moment?
 
@TravisJ Your view of the extremity of another person's view is not justification for dismissing them and their concerns.
 
user4639281
@TravisJ As I have said countless times. I am for the political position
 
7:09 AM
Yes, well, then you should understand that the post was not entirely made to encourage alternative facts or ignorance.
 
@TravisJ By alienating the opposing perspective, it is encouraging ignorance.
 
@TravisJ Actually, it was, by virtue of not sharing any actual convincing information or encouraging people to discuss (rationally) the issue with opposition.
 
@jpmc26 - You are wrong. Instead of addressing my initial point, or the issue that people are being unconstitutionally detained or denied rights, you have instead decided to present false information to change the topic.
 
user4639281
Your black and white arguments are neither constructive nor respectful. They are dismissive and damaging to the political position itself.
 
@meagar can you deal with the troll post on meta?
 
7:11 AM
@TravisJ The site policies on Be Nice and political discourse are false information?
 
It's designed to inflame the discussion around this one here
 
@TravisJ You are so wrapped up in your political views that you have become, like this meta post, more interested in validating them than in helping others understand your perspective. That attitude is what I am calling a problem and what I am advocating against.
 
@jpmc26 - You claimed that no one cared about terrorism when I mentioned the suffering of refugees.
You are advocating against a straw man then.
 
@jpmc26 You said it yourself what the values of the political far right in america are.
 
@TravisJ Do you deny that some people agree with the policy on the basis of terrorism?
 
7:15 AM
Yes, but they are mistaken.
They are also not solely basing such a decision on terrorism.
 
@TravisJ You're entitled to the opinion that they are mistaken. How would you go about convincing them that their opinion is incorrect?
 
typing
 
Does it start with, "your position is immoral, un-American, and stupid"?
 
of course not
 
@Magisch What now?
 
7:18 AM
@TravisJ Why not?
 
Sorry, you know, I actually typed a response, and then when you asked why not I realized you didn't even care to know it.
 
I'm sorry for interrupting; please go ahead.
 
First, they froze legal residents (green card holders) out of this country. That should raise an immediate red flag. Second, the people who are killed most by terrorists are those in other countries, and mostly Muslim. The people at risk, and people trying to flee such terror, are refugees. These refugees are already vetted. They are on the front lines of this fight against terrorism and they are the people both abroad and at home who our intelligence community rely on.
 
@meagar I see you found the troll post already
 
Without them, we are hard pressed for intel to use to fight terrorism. Both abroad, and at home.
That aside though, from a humanitarian standpoint, what is happening is tragic right now.
While you may think that abortions are tragic, that is a different subject, and also does not mean that for the reason that one tragic situation exists any others should be perpetrated.
 
7:24 AM
@Magisch Yup, thanks
 
No one is suggesting that it should. It was an example designed to put a different spin on the words Joel chose to use, to show that they aren't so respectful if you don't agree with the position.
 
@jpmc26 Gotta ask: Who are you to spin anything joel says?
This is his company, his website
 
I understand what you're saying, and neither I nor anyone here wants people to suffer.
@Magisch I'm the guy advocating for site policy, site policy that's good for our community and is more likely to result in people actually learning about opposing viewpoints than in discussion being shut down.
 
@jpmc26 site policy obviously changed this weekend
4
 
Site policy set by SO staff themselves.
 
7:27 AM
What you're advocating for has been abolished by joel
 
@Magisch Does that mean I can't advocate for its return?
@TravisJ Just a question, how long do you think this order lasts?
 
@jpmc26 Sure can, just saying "I'm advocating for site policy" is disingenous
because you're advocating for changing site policy
 
@Magisch If we want to mince words, we could say I'm advocating for maintaining it, or for not letting C-level execs be above it.
 
Can you define "order" in your question?
 
Either way, I think you know what I'm trying to say. But thanks for pointing out the details.
@TravisJ Trumps executive order. Sorry.
 
7:31 AM
@jpmc26 what do you mean by "be above it"? If a CEO does something contrary to policy, that means policy has changed
You can't be above or below site policy if it's you making it
 
@Magisch That's not a power structure that works though. Hence why democracy was invented
 
No clue. I would like to say 1 day, but in reality it could be much longer depending on what the Supreme Court does, or how intrusive any other interference may be.
 
This site isn't a democracy
what spolsky says, goes.
 
@Magisch That isn't automatic in every company. Sometimes policy has to go through committee or something. Either way, the point is, let's adhere to the Be Nice and existing policies on political discourage that say we should be respectful.
 
@Magisch I would argue that the policy has not changed but it's only as enforceable on SO employees as they want it to be.
 
7:33 AM
@meagar So the policy has always been that CEOs can do what they want, or it recently changed so thats the case
semantics
 
If every state issues a stay similar to New York's on Monday then the effect of the order will have essentially been nullified. That said, in order to actually remove the Executive Order itself could take months.
 
I'm for bed, good night all.
 
@TravisJ From what I've been able to piece together, it's a temporary ban, at least according to Trump. I forget whether it's 90 days or six months before it ends, but one of those.
 
I thought it was 90 days, but it could have changed.
 
I think it was 90 days, too; I'm not sure where I'm getting the 6 months from. Think I have some things scrambled.
@TravisJ That probably doesn't change your opinion of it, and that's fine.
 
7:36 AM
It doesn't.
 
But could you at least see why someone wouldn't think it's necessarily completely abhorrent in light of that?
 
It is unconstitutional to do.
 
I'm looking at the Be nice. page in the help center, and I can make a case for violation of every bullet point except for the last two.
 
I would hope those people look at historical examples of what these types of actions lead to.
 
I'm not arguing in favor of the order. What I am arguing for is respectful treatment of those who agree with it.
 
7:38 AM
How the heck is this discussion relevant to a programming site? Politics have Always been explicitly off-topic on SO. Trump is literally not my president. Don't bother me with SJW topics about that on a site I visit just for programming stuff.
 
@Cerbrus lots of answers for you to upvote with that opinion. =p
short answer: because Joel.
 
I'm seriously considering flagging the post as rude or abusive.
 
@TravisJ And that doesn't start with, "immoral," "un-American," and "stupid."
@4castle ha ha. G'luck with that. Mods have actively rolled back edits that try to tone it down.
@TravisJ Thanks for having some civil discourse with me. Sorry it got off to such a rocky start.
 
@Cerbrus the ceo of SO decided that this time it's important enough to turn meta into a soapbox
 
You are very amicable in chat, I will give you that. I know that most people are just trying to do what they feel is best.
 
7:41 AM
Have a good night/day everyone. And try to Be Nice; I know it's hard.
 
That said, there is no moral ground to stand on. Banning refugees is un-American. I certainly wouldn't call it a "smart" move.
 
since he's the ceo we can't do jack about that
 
@TravisJ There's a great distance between "stupid" and "not smart," especially when trying to win hearts and minds. ;)
 
Fair enough.
 
G'night.
 
7:43 AM
@jpmc26 I don't think winning hearts and minds is the goal here
if it was, the thing would have had to be phrased drasticly differently
 
I'm Sick and tired of seeing Trump news. Every goddamn decision he makes turns into a protest, people getting their toes stepped on, and general emotional angryness. America, calm the hell down. Getting pissed off solves nothing, and I don't want to be forced into a "For" or "Against" camp.
 
@Cerbrus We're two weeks into his term
 
If I want someone getting pissed off at Trump, I'll visit Facebook
@Magisch That doesn't matter.
 
prepare for at least 4 years of that
The climate in the US is even more politically charged now then I've ever seen. I think this week's meta featured post against trump won't be the last
 
> By doing it here, you associate us, the whole community, under one political view. Shoving your views down the community's throat is not the way to go, even if your view is the majority. (source)
 
7:50 AM
@Feeds The best is to contrast the current state of the world with a positive vision, one of everyone sharing knowledge as something great and making all people free. That maybe should be emphasized and/or clarified and then we have done our share - I feel.
 
mhm
@Cerbrus I never said I agree with it
In the end, neither of our opinions matter though. CEO is CEO
 
Not implying that
@Magisch And that's just rediculous.
A CEO can't "do what he wants" just because he's CEO.
 
@Cerbrus What do you suppose our criticism will do? Get joel to back off an opinion he holds so dearly that he calls anyone who doesn't names? joel is a very rational person, if he's this aggrieved by the executive order, us debating meta rules won't get him to stop using meta for this.
 
Then what's the point of the meta thread? "You can all answer if you share my opinion"?
 
@Cerbrus To make already agreeing people fight it and to shame opponents into supporting your view
obviously. standard as far as political posts go
 
Why's everybody call Meagar "Meager". He's not that meager :p
 

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