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3:15 PM
Got a weird question
If it was possible for Python with Chaquopy to write Android native app, would it be possible for PHP?
 
it's possible, but will involve jni
I would imagine ... and that's ever so painful ...
 
@brzuchal Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.
 
yo @Ikari, how you been? haven't seen you in a while!
 
@Stephen if Python could why PHP shouldn't?
 
that depends
 
3:22 PM
Thinking of ways to improve popularity and open new areas this I like
 
if one of the build steps using this toolkit is to output something other than python, native code, java opcodes, whatever, then obviously that's more suitable for an android device than interpreted anything ...
but if people really are interpreting python on android that's a little crazy ...
 
I guess it’s not really the model of the special type is different, it’s just that it refers to the id of another row in the items table, while all normal types refer to the id of a different table. So I can’t put a foreign key constraint on that type column and have it be constrained to two different tables
 
@brzuchal it's not important if you could do it. It's important if you should do it.
 
@JoeWatkins but aren't people interpreting Javascript on Android yet?
 
I'm not sure to be honest, but they'll be using a js engine with jit support ...
 
3:25 PM
I'm not an expert but we're introducing jit also, right?
I don't expect it now just looking for areas which might be exploring
I mean which might be worth exploring
 
wait, I'm under the impression that normal python doesn't have a JIT, that the jit is only a feature of one implementation of python, not the one everyone calls "python", is that wrong ?
 
Dunno
 
@JoeWatkins that's correct. Cpython is purely interpreted. Pypy has a jit, but isn't used as much
 
well whatever, interpreting anything is not very smart, it goes to extreme lengths to avoid interpreting java ...
 
Was thinking about where PHP might look to be adopted and mobile apps is massive move now
 
3:29 PM
@ircmaxell that's what I thought
well how much do you know about the android API, you'd have to be some sort of tzar to expose that, the thing is massive ...
 
Almost nobody writes desktop apps anymore
 
I could start reading documentation tomorrow and wire it altogether with jni, but what we would end up with is an unholy mess that I don't really understand very well ...
 
@mega6382 heyo! I've been doing quite well, but it's college grind time
 
@brzuchal I think honestly a more natural segue for php would be addressing shortcomings to make long-running daemons a first-class target in the language/runtime
 
@JoeWatkins I am fairly familiar with both the sdk and ndk
 
3:30 PM
so its been kinda rough recently
How have you been though!
 
All are either web apps or mobile, and if they tend to run on a desktop most often these days it's a standalone chrome app
 
@Stephen that I totally agree with
 
@JoeWatkins I wonder ... why does python have multiple functional fully-fledged implementations, but PHP only one? :-D
 
In fact, my current team builds Cross platform apis in C++ that are compiled and wrapped for both iOS and Android...
 
@bwoebi cause it's mainly used on shared hosting and Noone considered it seriously
 
3:33 PM
well several projects have started to implement a php runtime, some of them are quite complete ...
I don't know why there aren't any that we could or do use though ...
maybe you could expose the api for one of those cross device kits, I forget all of their names, but the ones like anthony is talking about there ...
 
@Ikari I've been good as well. But very frustrated at the same time.
 
@JoeWatkins that's impressive, looking forward on anything about this
 
@brzuchal no no no, I'm not saying I'm going to ...
 
@JoeWatkins you said you will look at this, that's enough :)
 
@ircmaxell someone on internals@ mentioned about being more friendly to use for CLI tools, but I don't see the missing pieces there anywhere near as big as daemon use, and much easier to support via user land code anyway.
 
3:35 PM
to be clear, I'm trying to say it's a good idea, but the problems I see are that the android SDK is massive and complex, and you'd have to know an awful lot about it to make a nice API in PHP ... I don't ...
another approach might be to expose some other API, a cross device one, which is going to be smaller and have more reach ..
but I don't know anything about any of those either ...
 
@Stephen I don't think anything language level is needed for cli/tooling, having built a lot before. I think libraries and tools, sure. But the long running deamon support is definitely a language level issue...
 
@ircmaxell why is that an issue? I can run long living queue workers with amphp or traditional scripts and it works
 
i think the symfony cli tool with their "symfony serve" functionality is something that should be in core, it starts a webserver using Go, then talks in the backend via php-fpm that is started as children by symfony serve, it also starts worker jobs and acts as angel to them.
 
@brzuchal I can sit in the back seat and drive with my feet and "it works" but a better solution is to have a front seat that slides back.
 
@brzuchal is that easy and do you find the standard library supports it well enough? Thinking things like memory stability, resilience to errors
 
3:45 PM
@ircmaxell well it wasn't easy, especially with amphp when I was reading amqp and in response querying huge SQL result to write csv all using async libs and uv
 
@ircmaxell definitely. even just running a forking worker for Qless has it's hiccups and headaches because of dealing with connections being closed between parent/child, etc.
 
That kind of stuff. Making pcntl first class
 
@mega6382 oof. hope it gets better soon
wrong ping, never mind me Joe :D
 
That was really hard to develop and I had many issues with memory cause writing file couldn't follow MySQL result decoding in a speed manner so was out of memory quickly cause of scheduled writes
 
@ircmaxell so, should I wait for RFC ? :P
 
3:48 PM
Async and await in language could be good
I kinda don't like generators much
 
@Stephen go for it, I can help ;)
 
@brzuchal but they don't have anything to do with how php generally works, I believe.
@brzuchal they are only good for promises, and php doesn't have those. And generators are entirely different things, I believe.
 
@mega6382 with async/await you're not aware of event loop I think, but you have to with generators
Maybe I'm wrong and dunno if what I'm saying is true
 
@brzuchal but php doesn't have an event loop, it does everything line by line unlike JS.
 
@brzuchal correct.
 
3:52 PM
@brzuchal I would agree that a lot of javascript developers are unaware of the event loop.
/me ducks
 
async in JS is so good :D
 
@mega6382 the way hack implements it, is that it has a hidden event loop that you can explicitly switch to (await)
 
@mega6382 not when using REACTPHP or Amphp
Sorry for caps am on mobile now
 
@ircmaxell that's interesting.
@brzuchal Yes, but their implementation of the event loop is in PHP itself and you have to use the LoopInterface to implement it etc.
I mean that the concept is not native to PHP itself, but an abstraction atop PHP.
 
@mega6382 true, but amount of userland implementations and its popularity made me saying async/await natively supported would be good
 
4:01 PM
@brzuchal I believe an extension can be written to provide non-blocking I/O in PHP with support for promises and async/await.
Adding it directly to PHP wouldn't make much sense, because that's not how many people use PHP currently, except for the users of reactphp or amphp etc.
 
when migrating arginfos, should the variables names of the existing arginfos be used, or the name in the documentation?
(in case of conflict)
 
@mega6382 there already is uv ext but I believe async/await as a language construct would be game changer, anything looking awkward is not gonna be widely accepted
 
@beberlei I was advised to use the name in the existing arginfo
 
because it probably comes out of the ReflectionArgument already
 
@brzuchal Well I suppose so.
 
cmb
4:11 PM
@beberlei, yep, that for BC
 
@cmb ta
 
/me wonders what happened to ext/async
 
@cmb I don't think we guarantee BC there ...
I'd say okay to change if there's reason, but not go out of the way to do it
 
I think that if you can come up with a much better name, use it?
 
cmb
@NikiC, ack, only change when there's a good reason (probably the docs aren't)
 
4:23 PM
@mega6382 one interesting idea, would be a native async/await syntax and Awaitable interface, and then a userland implementable event loop. So you can register different event loops as needed (libuv, etc)...?
 
or for fun, randomly swap haystack and needle ;-)
 
@Derick Slartibartfast it is
 
@ircmaxell that sounds like a pretty good idea.
 
@Derick @NikiC i think the parameter names in code are fine, just confused why the docs had different ones :)
 
Hello there, I'm mostly front-end, but I need a small CDN for hosting around 10-20 images and 3-4 css/js. I'm looking for something straighforward/simple( I never setup on one before ). Do you have names in mind ?
 
4:34 PM
@Ekin /me wonders harder than ekin
 
@AllanRaquin cloudflare has a free plan for very small sites.
 
@JoeWatkins github.com/concurrent-php/ext-async huh, it's not even there any longer?
dunno if it was moved somewhere else
 
@Danack i started with github.com/php/php-src/pull/4721 dom stubs
 
@AllanRaquin cloudfront and S3 aren't bad either. Though getting setup isn't the best, there are tons of tutorials
 
cmb
./configure CC=clang CXX=clang++ --enable-fuzzer --with-pic
 
4:37 PM
@AllanRaquin netlify
 
cmb
checking for clang fuzzer SAPI... yes
checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... yes
checking whether clang++ accepts -g... yes
checking how to run the C++ preprocessor... clang++ -E
checking whether C compiler accepts -fsanitize=fuzzer-no-link... no
configure: error: Compiler doesn't support -fsanitize=fuzzer-no-link
What am I doing wrong?
 
@AllanRaquin netlify can auto deploy from github project with minimum configuration and it has quite good walk through guide
 
Thank you all ! I will dig into those proposals right now :)
 
@Ekin it and martin just disappeared
 
:-(
 
4:42 PM
@cmb don't the env var definitions happen before the command?
Meaning CC=clang ./configure ....
 
cmb
I thought so, and tested with that order as well; same result
even if I export, same result
 
Ah okay. Just checking :)
 
Sorry @JoeWatkins I'd left for dinner. I'll check your comments now
 
apology not accepted, I was waiting all day for you ...
 
@cmb What is your clang version?
 
cmb
4:52 PM
clang version 3.8.1-24 (tags/RELEASE_381/final)
 
yeah ... that's way too old :)
 
cmb
That's probably way too old (debian stretch default)
Ok, thanks!
 
I haven't played with the fuzzing thing yet, is there anything interesting in it
?
 
Right, let's go check the damage.
 
/me waiting to hear about how attempting to redefine constants is a legitimate programming style.
 
4:56 PM
/me hides behind pile of code that would not run if it didn't redefine constants
what are you reading where you are waiting to hear that ?
 
@JoeWatkins Not sure what you mean by "set create_object and ce_flags after registration"
 
@JoeWatkins @NikiC's email about throwing for "Constant %s already defined" notices
 
@MarkR set them after register internal class call
 
you are setting them before, then calling the register routine which initializes class data, which wipes out the ce flags you set
 
cmb
5:01 PM
const TEST='foo'; const TEST='foo' is perfectly legitimate programming style :P
 
you can set the create_object before and ce_flags after, but it's less jarring to read if they are set together, after registration ...
 
Is this XML MINIT bugged then if it's losing the flags?
 
@cmb I like my consts like I like my vars. SLOPPY BABY.
 
@MarkR looks like it
@Stephen ah I see ... well we have a pile of tests that hack up the engine in all kinds of bad ways, not defending it really ...
 
I've no idea where that <zend.h> came from. As it's the last one in the list I wonder if it was injected by CLion
 
5:09 PM
doesn't clion need cmake to do stuff like that ?
 
.....we should stop using dokuwiki for anything.
@Stephen pretty sure someone proposed that a few months ago.
 
Github ang Hugo, Jekyll or similar ;p
 
5:33 PM
@Danack monkey patching everywhere. PHP can have it's own [].smoosh bullshit shenanigans
 
yeah, tradeoffs. JS is incredibly easy to get going as your code runs on someone elses computer.....which means you can't guarantee what is on that computer. Presumably people have suggested a similar thing to declare('modern_js_please') for JS engines?
 
@Danack there is 'use strict'; but its per-function
 
Make it per line.....
 
A lot of the more recent versions of Javascript don't work on all browsers
 
@Danack Oprah mode. YOU get to be strict. And YOU get to be strict. And YOU get to be strict.
 
5:39 PM
@brzuchal I'll put your name down for volunteering for this yes?
 
caniuse.com/#search=es6 as usual, IE is the hold-out.
 
@MarkR none of them have 100% support though.
 
that's odd, im getting segfaults for literally everything I've changed in GD if running in test mode, but not if I use the same binary and just run a single script. Anyone able to tell me what's different?
 
moin again
 
5:54 PM
morning again
 
6:05 PM
ok thats it for me today. Don't redefine any constants I wouldn't redefine.
 
Please tell me we're not needing to argue about making redefining constants an exception x_x
 
should I thank Chase for making my point for me?
 
@MarkR next week: an RFC to make redeclaring a function, not a fatal error.
 
Evemongs
 
@Danack you should wait exactly 1 hour for it though :)
 
6:12 PM
I'm not even sure what you're referring to anymore. I'm too busy actually writing code (even if it's half broken ;o), I literally can't be bothered to read his 50th 10-paragraph post of the day
So best of luck in your fight Danack :P
 
6:25 PM
@Danack it’s literally a knee jerk response you’re talking about that he has done there. An absolute pointless email that does not make any point. It’s just noise. Unnecessary noise. Pisses me off
 
@Danack What's the actual scope of going from dokuwiki to something different?
 
scope?
 
"your opinion doesn't matter as much", this is literally how it works? as per RFC process
 
@Danack you asked for volunteering static site generators instead of dokuwiki, is that wiki.php.net only or something more?
I suppose I can volunteer and try myself
Or you mean something really different and I didn't grasp :P
Cause I doubt that I didn't really grasp what you were talking about...
 
6:38 PM
@beberlei knee-jerk. At no point in Dan's email does it suggest that we're talking about lessening the significance of certain individuals opinions. It's just defensive. Probably because he is aware he is a culprit of failing to abide by such etiquette.
 
not sure i am the only one, but i did send him an off list email last week about his spamming
 
@brzuchal I'll put my thoughts down on the scope then somewhere. tbh probably the first step is figuring out what we want/need to keep from the wiki, as until we can have the karma system elsewhere, it makes some things very hard to do - e.g. moving voting off the wiki.
....which probably suggests "expose the karma system as auth service" somehow...
 
we should have oauth2 server with appropriate scopes ideally, but maybe some small steps
 
@JayIsTooCommon to be fair though, I was thinking his name really loudly. But yeah, the only people who make noise about anyone trying stop people being really rude, are those people who are rude on regular basis.
 
static site generators like Jekyll and Hugo are fine if you want to provide changes through MD files or reStructured etc. in the repository on GH for eg. and build static html, assets, indexes, lists and paginations, menus etc. and deploy them it is awesome if none of content changes dynamically, if it should then it would have to be JS I think
 
6:47 PM
what if C and O are aliases of Z ... does the world make more sense, or less sense ?
he's got a lot of time on his hands ... #justsayin
 
I have to assume Z is worth a few bob. Maybe he's hiring people to just type furious messages
 
@JoeWatkins I pinged O to ask him to not post as much....think he's only sent one since then, but will have another go.
 
that's offensive to bob
 
Also, fyi there are two Chris Schneider\s involved in the PHP project. Which was confusing to me.
 
It would really be a shame if 500 people showed up to his webinar tomorrow
Anyone here have access to the travis reports? Wanting to find out why the latest push is failing
 
6:51 PM
everyone
 
oh gawwwwddd i've read the other thread
 
I got a pass on AppVeyor but a failure on Travis and Azure, but the failures seem to be nothing to do with my code
 
looks unrelated
if it looks unrelated it is, tests are a little flaky still
 
it's related
you just need to switch the test to use a different resource
 
6:53 PM
> Test posix_ttyname() with wrong parameters [ext/posix/tests/posix_ttyname_error_wrongparams.phpt]
 
@JoeWatkins All of this reminds me of Y
 
I didn't check azure yet, that's on travis and doesn't look related ...
 
Hmm
003+ Notice: Object of class GdImage could not be converted to int in /Users/vsts/agent/2.155.1/work/1/s/ext/posix/tests/posix_ttyname_error_wrongparams.php on line 4
004+ bool(false)
I have absolutely no idea what that means
 
oh wow, I should have looked ... that's, really odd
1 min ago, by NikiC
you just need to switch the test to use a different resource
 
cmb
Like Nikita said, it is related, and you have to use a resource in the test (GD is now an object)
 
6:56 PM
also if an error says "GdImage" while you are working on introducing "GdImage" ... I think it might be related :D
 
I was looking for something in the GD section, heh
 
cmb
https://www.php.net/manual/en/function.php-uname.php#124206
"but below is a code example and its output on PHP 5.5 running on RedHat 4.4"
posted 1h ago
 
Not entirely sure what to replace that with resource wise, I assume it doesn't use tmpfile for a reason
Any suggestions?
 
> Although it does not indicate receiving parameters this function allows some chars as parameters, they are the options a; m; n; r; s; v.
This is why outdated translations are bad, the EN docs describe those. :(
 
7:14 PM
@JoeWatkins I have wondered if he had a sock puppet, even in here. As far as Chase's nose is up his butt he could be a candidate.
 
cmb
@salathe, long ago I suggested to add a prominent warning to outdated translation pages. Hannes said that wouldn't be easy to automate with PhD. If so, it might still be worthwhile to "manually" add respective warnings to the XML sources. Could also be an incentive for translators to act. What do you think?
 
@cmb If they're outdated enough to be warning readers about it, I'd rather just not have the translated page.
 
cmb
well, probably hard to check the amount of "outdatedness"
And if only a minor change is missing ...
@MarkR, something like gist.github.com/cmb69/dd386321d1cc6504bc9031bf3a687e7f ? (untested)
 
That's exactly what I did cmb, it's running now. Will let you know how it goes, TY.
If this clears, I'll move on to doing the GdFont
 
7:42 PM
money_format() returns string with incorrect number – #78562
 
7:59 PM
Should I consider in an anti-pattern or a best practice to implement JsonSerializable in classes that I know will be serialized to JSON?

• (Cons) Serialization is not the responsibility of these classes, which are simple value objects
• (Pros) If my classes don’t know how to serialize themselves, then I need a Serializer object that does know how to serialize those classes. For a large number of classes, that can mean a large number of serializers.
• (Cons) These classes implement just a few simple interfaces, so I could theoretically get by with just a few Serializer classes
 
@LucasBustamante This is one of those things, where principles don't matter that much.....writing code that is easy to use for your use-case is more important than purity of code. btw I tend to mostly use this: gist.github.com/Danack/3091169b4be64ba8e1f79788c8120a96
 
@JoeWatkins When you have some free time, I'd appreciate you re-reviewing those changes please.
 
8:35 PM
gaah $dom->load vs DOMDocument::load,
 
DOMFactory->load(...)
 
8:54 PM
And I made a fuckup
How do I delete a pushed branch from the git repo?
 
You should be able to just go to the branches page and click the trash icon
 
I pushed to the git.php.net repo
Because I forgot to checkout to amster and merge the branch because I'm tired
 
15825
Q: How do I delete a Git branch locally and remotely?

Matthew RankinI want to delete a branch both locally and remotely. Failed Attempts to Delete Remote Branch $ git branch -d remotes/origin/bugfix error: branch 'remotes/origin/bugfix' not found. $ git branch -d origin/bugfix error: branch 'origin/bugfix' not found. $ git branch -rd origin/bugfix Deleted rem...

Tried those?
 
I didn't try anything yet tbh
I was just
Why am I not seeing the commit on GitHub
Oh I pushed the branch
facepalm
 
@Girgias git remote add DANGER git@git.php.net you know :p
 
8:58 PM
Well it is "php" as a remote
But I thought I had the process correct
But nah driving for the whole day maybe rendered me to exhausted
 
you should ask on IRC probably
 
I think the link @MarkR gave me did the job
 
I'm still learning GIT stuff for multiple origin projects. Blrugh
 
9:21 PM
I like to use my github repo as remote origin, and the git.php.net repo as remote upstream, btw.
Helps me remember things.
 
Segmentation fault when using a cloned XML object – #78563
 
That one is me, will submit a patch to knock out the clone method in a few min
 
cmb
Can't we forbid pushing branches and tags to php-src?
That's only needed for RMs and maybe a few people (Nikita, Dmitry come to mind).
That would be a case where different karma levels are useful, IMO.
 
yes
please
@Danack for the infra thing in the coordination project I'll try to clean up the work I'm currently doing on doc.php.net and open up the repo (which has a type in the GitLab group name but whatever)
 
cmb
@Girgias, I wouldn't know how to implement this. Maybe ask on internals?
 
9:36 PM
yes, /** @return null|false */
 
Well it's more a side project at the moment
 
cmb
@MarkR, while you're at it, could you please check serialization of XML objects?
 
It's kinda broken and the only thing working is the tutorial
 
Newbie Q. Could someone advise how to re-generate the CMakelist? I'm noticing mine has some references to domerrorhandler.c which no longer exists.
Yeah will do
 
cmb
thanks
 
9:37 PM
But it's statically generated @cmb so kinda an improvement
 
cmb
@Girgias, I was referring to the karma stuff with "I wouldn't know how to implement it" :)
 
Ohhhhhhhhhh
 
cmb
chat :)
 
I probably should go to sleep
I also realised during the drive that I shouldn't try to reimplement block layout templating and just use twig lol
 
cmb
Just noticed that ext/xml is well maintained!
It even has a prioritez TODO list: https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/xml/xml.c#L42-L56
s/prioritez/prioritized/
Well ... let's pretend there no such thing like git blame ;)
 
9:45 PM
Oh
21years ago
 
10:02 PM
/** @return int|false */public function count(); doh ;)
 
cmb
10:15 PM
compile error: 3v4l.org/hB6dd :)
 
@Danack I hope you've gone to bed..
 
Yeah, and I should too before I commit to disect point by point how his breaching the document and whom he thinks is breaking them
 
@cmb arginfo stub :)
 
It's just such a shame. That this community is being portrayed so toxic via a minority.
 
cmb
@beberlei, I know :), but still I think it's sensible to terminate method definitions with {} instead of ; there
 
10:24 PM
Someone should just do a list of things that have been committed to master in the time that they have been complaining.
 
@cmb yes thats right ;)
done with ext/dom, wtf
 
I'm having a bit of a hard time tracking down where std_object_handlers is actually set up. I'd rather like to know where the default clone behaviour is coming form but I can't seem to find where they're assigned.
 
cmb
While that is a minority on internals, I'm afraid they're speaking on behalf of the majority of projects.
@MarkR, is https://lxr.room11.org/xref/php-src%40master/Zend/zend_object_handlers.c#1838 helpful?
 
@cmb how so?
 
cmb
There may be sooo many legacy projects out there...
 
10:35 PM
Not a scientific study by any means, but strawpoll.me/18629712/r I don't think they speak for the majority at all.
 
cmb
I think "these legacy guys" don't participate on such media. Consider WP.
 
IMO they have a simple choice, get with the program or pay to have a legacy version built and maintained. When XP went EOL Microsoft made people pay through the nose for backports, and even still they eventually canned it.
$25 per machine, doubling every year, then terminated after year 4 (MS pricing for ESU on Windows 7)
 
what on earth is this shit
 
To which shit are you referring, hopefully not my comments :P
 
nah, the latest internals
 
10:49 PM
what now?
 
@Derick the usual. I think the solution is Z, C and O on the ignore list until it’s sorted.
 
its completly irrelevant, yes the mamiling list rules where never decided on then, the idea is that we decide on all that now
 
Possibly Incorrect Hex Notation – #78564
 
11:18 PM
I think I'm done for the day, g'nite folks
 
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