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12:25 AM
@Kalle hmmm... That was a good read. Thanks!
 
 
1 hour later…
1:27 AM
morning
Can someone tell me how to relate to people who propose new functionalities simply saying that they will not implement them?
 
@ircmaxell Glad it was helpful :)
@brzuchal is this from Mike S on internals or something?
 
This is not a first time when in response to proposal some say it would be great to have X instead, or all together with Y it would be complete etc
@Kalle No, Larry now
 
Does anyone has experience integrating biometric device to web ?
 
I understand that maybe in this are could be a few other features which work together, but AFAIR no one has revived accessors, named parameters etc. in last 2-3 years
And there are many which complain, like: Oh your proposal is neat but with X would be more likely, or your proposal solves narrow cases, we need Y
 
@brzuchal my best advice to you is simply to not value that feedback if it comes on the premise of a "if you do this, then i do not want to implement it" (which essentially is a form of black mail).

The same happened when \ was decided to be the T_NS_SEPARATOR, but look at it today, no one cares
 
1:33 AM
God dammet, move your ass and do that
@Kalle that was helpful, you may be right. Maybe I should not weigh all comments and try hard to adjust with a response discussing proposed RFC and not imaginated
 
@brzuchal you definitely should. I do not value responses from certain people very highly because they contribute to disrupt the actual conversation by ill statements, an example being Lester
 
 
1 hour later…
2:42 AM
x
 
 
3 hours later…
5:37 AM
Good morning
 
5:57 AM
I am getting an HTML response from ajax . I am looking for solution through which I will get URL of that ajax call in that HTML.. I tried different options but still I am getting current browsers URL and not ajax call URL..


console.log('document.location', document.location.href);
console.log('location.pathname', window.location.pathname); // Returns path only
console.log('location.href', window.location.href); // Returns full URL
 
posted on September 17, 2019

 
7:02 AM
@Girgias i know, it does calculate everything correctly, but since no yes / no it colors every bar red ;)
the amazing AI model I programmed only knows how to detect answers that include a yes ;)
 
o/
 
@brzuchal larrys restriction doesn'T make sense though, if you check nikics last RFC on named arguments, he uses (foo="bar") as the syntax, especially since mixed is also possible, say htmlentities($str, encoding="UTF-8")
 
7:22 AM
Holy shit there are people defending RMS, claiming things like "mob mentality wins again"....
suddenly makes the internals@ drama seem less dramatic.
 
@beberlei exactly
There are few RFC's treating the same feature
htmlspecialchars($string, { double_encode: false });  // wiki.php.net/rfc/simplified_named_params
htmlspecialchars($string, double_encode => false); // wiki.php.net/rfc/named_params
 
simplified_named_params is still a draft without patch, so it hasn't stood scrutiny yet
 
@Andreas That just shows that using locales is a really bad idea :-/ And boo on that library.
 
If I'm not gonna success with Object Initializer - which would be optimal, then I'll rethink if got enough time to revive named arguments
From all those Object Initializer I think suites best for my [@Annotation{prop="value"}] idea
But it is ok if would require additional parentheses or other weird syntax, the thing is it would always go through constructor if Object Initializer won't pass and I think that's not optimal for featured annotations
 
it didn'T even cross my thoughts how useful object initializer will be for annotations
 
7:35 AM
git mernings o/
 
@beberlei the idea came as a need from what I had in mind for annotations
 
morns
 
8:00 AM
labile readily or continually undergoing chemical, physical, or biological change or breakdown : unstable
 
8:10 AM
Could people do me a favour, and send me some info about stuff they think other people could be helping work on? E.g. bugs, moving more stuff to git/github, automating tests/builds etc.
 
@Derick I still think locales should only be available to CLI and maybe embed and I don't think it was even thread-safe?
 
@cmb Why is there no windows build for the first mcrypt pecl released? pecl.php.net/package/mcrypt
 
@Derick I believe it needs to be added here: github.com/php/web-rmtools/blob/master/data/config/pecl/…
 
I don't know why but the php script hangs when i use php-ffmpeg (to extract frame) in a loop, it usually stops at the third loop, it only happen when i use a url instead of a local file. But i realized that if i put a `sleep()` of 60s everything works, and if i change it to 30s it also works but sometimes i get a error `Symfony\Component\Process\Exception\ProcessTimedOutException: The process <ffmpeg code> exceeded the timeout of 300 s
econds. in /home/lib/vendor/symfony/process/Process.php:1233`, it's so strange.
 
cmb
@Derick:
````
Checking for mcrypt.h ... <not found>
WARNING: mcrypt not enabled; libraries and headers not found
````
I'll have a look
 
8:20 AM
@cmb Cheers!
Although, I am not sure if mcrypt was ever working on windows?
 
cmb
I'm pretty sure it did, and Kalle is right that the build config needs an entry for mcrypt.
 
I don't know how any of that windows stuff works :-)
 
You know, it's never too late for that Derick ^^
 
I honestly don't care :-þ
hobby OS!
 
cmb
ugly! would need to build dirent and mcrypt packages for vc15 first. :(
 
8:35 AM
That does not seem worthwhile
That extension is dead for a good reason
Might have made sense to get Windows builds three years ago, but now seems like an odd time to start caring about this
 
Hey @nikic , whats a good channel to chat to about something in private later please?
 
@PeeHaa I am in here every day. I just don't talk much because work.
 
Good morning all
 
cmb
@NikiC, I basically agree, but it seems that mcrypt has still lots of downloads: pecl.php.net/package-stats.php?cid=6%27&pid=1003
 
@Danack pong?
 
8:46 AM
docs.google.com/document/d/… soliciting feedback and contributions for this, a prototype survey that could provide quantitative information on PHP's usage in the wild (and help put certain arguments into context)
 
@NikiC @cmb I agree - it's just that somebody emailed me about them
 
cmb
I'll ask Anatol about mcrypt.
 
@cmb I wouldn't sweat it
 
A Q I have about the Q's is, is it worth asking about the tooling / frameworks people use, or is that information derivable from the stats from the likes of packagist? It's common to follow the lead of primary frameworks.
 
@Derick @ircmaxell which days are you @ barcelona?
 
8:57 AM
11-14
 
My flight options are really shitty :(
There is a single flight TXL-BCN
 
oh really? I'm not having a direct either
 
@NikiC Really? Even from Helsinki there are multiple direct ones
 
which hotel are you speakers in?
 
No idea yet
 
9:04 AM
@IMSoP check room invites please.
 
9:46 AM
@beberlei do you have php-src karma?
 
Has anyone used github.com/maxalmonte14/phpcollections? What do you think about it?
 
10:13 AM
@beberlei Well, you have now. Feel free to commit your dom removals
 
@NikiC <3 i am scared, there are probably docs somewhere how to do that?
 
Though for commits to master it's simple, just set git.php.net as your remote and commit as usual
You should also add an UPGRADING note about the removed classes
 
Is there a way I can throw this conditional check away?
if (array_key_exists($career->career_type->description, $careerTypes)) {
    $careerTypes[$career->career_type->description]++;
}
else {
    $careerTypes[$career->career_type->description] = 1;
}
 
@notatroll A good question. Unfortunately there is no really great way, unless you want to use @.
$description = $career->career_type->description;
$careerTypes[$description] = ($careerTypes[$description] ?? 0) + 1;
^-- This is a common way to write it. But your existing code is probably clearer.
 
Yeah, that seems overly complex.
 
10:26 AM
It's 5 lines shorter than yours ;-)
You could always do:

if (!isset($careerTypes[$description])) {
$careerTypes[$description] = 0;
}

$careerTypes[$description]++;
 
@Girgias Any reason why github.com/php/php-src/pull/4661 is not committed?
 
10:40 AM
@notatroll are you aware this is a case that was discussed on the internals list recently? if not, you have good timing
the two feature ideas I had were an extra "read or initialise" operator, something like $careerTypes[? $career->career_type->description]++;; or more ambitiously something involving generics that would let you declare $careerTypes as "a map of string to integer, defaulting to zero"
neither is likely to happen any time soon, though, so Mark R's version is probably what I'd go with, just to get rid of the notice/warning
 
The isset version works better if you need to define a more complex data structure as part of it, something such as:

if (!isset($careerTypes[$description])) {
$careerTypes[$description] = [ 'name' => $description, 'count' => 0];
}

$careerTypes[$description]['count']++;
But failing that:

$careerTypes[$description] = ($careerTypes[$description] ?? 0) + 1

Describes *exactly* the behaviour you want, in its most simple form.
 
I find the ?? version confusing to read, and would probably expand out to the if statement; but that's personal taste
 
@IMSoP I've been hitting this particular case quite often recently :)
 
Nikita pointed out this in Python, which looks pretty cool: docs.python.org/3/library/…
 
PHP implementation: 3v4l.org/sU57S
 
11:02 AM
huh, nice :)
 
11:15 AM
@NikiC I guess $careerTypes[$description] ??= 0; followed by $careerTypes[$description]++; would be more idiomatic (but ... ??= is 7.4 syntax, right? :-D
 
Does anyone have an opinion on github.com/php/php-src/pull/4572 ?
@bwoebi Possibly, but I can see how some people might think it's confusing
 
@NikiC land Monday morning, fly out Thursday morning.
 
@NikiC why?
 
@NikiC for me, this fits as another in that case of "does it do something reasonable", in which case it shouldn't be an exception
 
@bwoebi for my part, I think it gives undue prominence to the 0
 
11:18 AM
@NikiC TypeError makes sense to me. There's no way for it to return a 'correct' answer IMO, so throw it.
If it was a userland function(array|\Countable $input) it would presumably throw TypeError
 
at a glance, ??= 0 makes it look like it's reset to 0 every time, when almost the opposite is the case: the end result will never have a counter of 0
the default value really needs to be 1, but I don't know how you could concisely express that
 
@IMSoP I see.
 
@MarkR huge difference though. Count is documented as taking mixed. And there is a huge BC component here of prior behavior.
 
I guess for something like that a null-dereference operator would be nice (arrays and objects)
 
That it arbitrarily returns 1 if it doesn't meet the requirement isn't a good thing, IMO. I see no situation in which it's not a programming error.
 
11:23 AM
$careerTypes[$description] = match(_) { unset=>1, else=>_+1 }
that feels closer to the intent to me
 
@ircmaxell well, the parameter reference says "Parameters ¶ array_or_countable An array or Countable object."
it's merely mixed in the signature for reasons I cannot dream of
 
There is well defined behavior if it is not an array or countable
 
It think this is reasonable to merge. I would, though, not throw an error if recursive.
 
I am not saying it makes terrible sense, but it is well defined
 
> I do somewhat agree with people that maybe the RFC should go into V2 version development.
God dammet, I hate people :/
 
11:29 AM
If things are defined in a way that doesn't make sense, does that not suggest it's rather important to change the definition?
 
@ircmaxell well, heck ... most return values were well defined "returns false on error" ... and included zpp. But we changed it anyway in a lot of places
 
@bwoebi I'm so not looking forward to updating this in the docs :(
 
@MarkR if it is consistent and in widespread use, then it is important to question why is it important to change the definition
 
Because the definition is insanely error prone. Can you provide a single example of where returning 1 would yield a valid answer?
 
@MarkR show me articles or posts about mis-using count() resulting in issues
@bwoebi you're saying that as if I would agree with those changes
 
11:36 AM
We're discussing language design, other than arrays, you can count scalars, which is always wrong, or you can count objects, which is going to return 1 anyway and might as well be a constant expression.
 
@ircmaxell hah, no. I'm just saying, that, when we are already doing these changes, we should not stop in the middle of them.
 
@bwoebi and I think that's massively wrong
@MarkR no, we're not discussing language design. We're discussing language evolution
@NikiC and @bwoebi what do you think about eliminating the community vote entirely from the process, and instead switch to Github RFCs, explicitly asking the community to +1/-1 the RFC PRs to give internals voters a sense of popularity/desire?
 
@ircmaxell I am not sure about it. I like it from a design perspective and feel unsure from a compatibility perspective.
 
Evolution is a theory that states that weaker versions die of to be succeeded by stronger, more capable versions,
 
@ircmaxell If it simplifies things ... I won't object. If it's not too much carrots taken away, then go ahead.
 
11:40 AM
@bwoebi if we were colding designing the language from scratch, I would totally agree. We aren't though, and there's way more code out there than I think people appreciate. And these types of changes will cause a shit load of pain
 
@ircmaxell The changes which will cause most pain are direct conversions from notice to exception.
 
and I'm all for seeing weaker, inferior versions of PHP functions die, well defined or not.
 
@bwoebi I'm asking less if you'd support it, than do you think it's a good/right thing to do?
@bwoebi that's why I voted against them
 
I've seen very few code suppressing warnings... but a lot of code ignoring notices.
But I think some of the notices shall be promoted to warning in a long term.
 
@bwoebi precisely why upgrading them to exeptions are going to cause a shit-ton of pain
 
11:43 AM
You and I have very different approaches on this irc. These things will already be causing a shit load of pain, but it'll be hidden from them in a log file somewhere. Causing god only knows what issues downstream.
 
@ircmaxell this can be easily manipulated if someone (author or anyone who like the idea behind RFC) really wants to push an RFC with some additional infra and automated GH account creation and verification and pushing thumbs up
 
@ircmaxell I totally agree.
 
@brzuchal it would be a non-binding straw-poll
@MarkR Have you ever worked on a really large codebase before? A few million lines of code or more?
 
@ircmaxell ohh popularity only, then fine, but even then you can't really trust thumbs
 
@MarkR no. well. At least with variables, there is a lot of code just guarding if ($var) ..., and it almost never is an issue
And then there are the few legit issues drowning between them.
 
11:45 AM
@brzuchal the idea would be not so much "trust", but sanity checks and allowing for the interaction such that internals gets the info without requiring non-contributors to vote
 
But the few legit issues typically are not a PITA or they would've been already fixed.
 
there's a big difference between "this may be masking a subtle bug, but our integration tests pass" and "this now causes PHP to abort the process and we have no choice but to fix it"
 
@ircmaxell You approach this as if these changes are designed to make it more difficult, it's not, it's designed to make it easier by clearly identifying issues and not allowing them to cause unexpected behaviour further down the stack
 
@bwoebi that's why they are notices IMHO. The signal to noise ratio is quite low. Yes, sometimes a notice is a bug, but often it isn't...
 
@ircmaxell I see nothing to gain by excluding them.
 
11:47 AM
@ircmaxell fine, BTW personally I find it easier to follow comments on RFC lines in PR, trying to do that in ML is really hard
 
@ircmaxell And that was good for old-style codebases. However, in modern code the undef vars are significantly more often indicating a bug
 
@MarkR except in 90% of the cases the code was working fine as is and you forced them to rewrite the code to no advantage
 
You're making assumptions that it's working properly.
 
@bwoebi how would you defined voting eligability then in a fair and consistent way
@bwoebi I call the flag on that
 
@ircmaxell That's my experience with it.
 
11:49 AM
the "modern code" you refer to is maybe 0.5% of the code that is still written today
 
@MarkR and you're making assumptions that it isn't, and therefore aborting the entire process is the safest thing to do
you could do a lot of damage introducing an unhandled Error into the middle of a complex transaction
 
@MarkR if the assumption is valid in 90% of cases, aborting causes more pain than it solves
 
@ircmaxell I'm essentially talking about my experiences with codebases started pre-5.3 and post-5.3. I see a significant shift around that time.
 
that's why a lot of people ignore notices, because it is a relatively low signal to noise ratio.
 
If I took 2 newbie programmers, cloned them star-trek transporter-accident style, sat them in front of a computer with notepad and the PHP binary, and told them to learn... I can guarantee you that the guy running the version of PHP which threw meaningful error conditions would be have better, more stable code at the end of it
 
11:50 AM
@bwoebi so what about the billions of lines of code still in production today that were started pre 4.4?
 
yeah, that's the curse of history and compatibility
I don't doubt that a more pedantic language would lead to better greenfield code
 
@MarkR you're not writing a programming language only for new users and new codebases
 
Notices/warnings instead of exceptions have been a big source of pain in my experience, since often the code doesn't fail until later down the line because of the null/false return value, and then it's much harder to dig through the code and log file to figure out exactly what caused it to be null.
 
That's exactly i t Theo
 
Make it a declare that allows people to opt-in then
 
11:53 AM
yeah, I do think we need modes that let you run old code while you're in the process of updating or retiring it
 
But especially without AOT compilation that can detect these types of issues (which aren't possible), you're just going to break things at random for no apparent reason
 
even if I had to add declare(back_compat=5.6); to all my legacy applications, it would be easier than updating them or postponing the upgrade until I'd replaced them
 
@IMSoP How do you fund the process of updating/retiring when the only benefit is upgrading from 7.4 to 8? Not a performance benefit, not a security benefit, not a reliability benefit (a lot of these codebases are already stable)
 
@ircmaxell yes, I agree
 
I'm not sure it makes sense to ask how you would find upgrading if you ignored half of the benefits to it
 
11:55 AM
As a former CTO, and as a manager over many teams that has had to deal with technical debt, business tradeoffs, and prioritization, I feel you're all being insanely naive to the realities of a metric ton of code that exists in the wild
 
@ircmaxell It will be a pain. But it can be slowly migrated. (warnings can be logged - behavior does not change) And I think in the long term it will be beneficial. (and long term is a loooong term.)
 
what I want to upgrade is the server: run the latest PHP executable, with the core security support, but carry on running the stable application with minimum changes
 
@bwoebi notice->warning I can get behind. notice->exception, no
 
@ircmaxell yeah.
 
@IMSoP yes!
 
11:57 AM
that's why opt-ins, opt-outs, editions, dialects, etc, seem like a necessary evil to move forward
 
Those all bring us back to the 'default safe' or 'default sloppy' argument Imsop
 
flip a coin
 
@IMSoP exactly. ext/mysql is dead? drop in a shim. register_globals is dead? drop in a simple extract($_REQUEST); magic quotes is dead? do an array_walk_recursive by ref and apply addslashes. Simple solutions to BC breaks.
but definitely ... do not do BC breaks which break everything in a not easily fixable way
 
I don't think anyone has proposed those that i've seen bwo
 
@bwoebi and IMHO, the exceptions changes do not fit those molds. They fundamentally change how code must be written, and hence why I think they are insanely dangerous
Especially that PR for count...
 
11:59 AM
I can bulk update 1000 files to begin <?php declare(oldskool=yeah); instead of <?php at lot more easily than I can examine 5000 instances of "variable may be read before writing" from a static analysis tool
so I really don't care what the default mode is, or what it's called
 
I would get behind the idea of people opting in to old school risky behaviour
 
that's why "editions" appeals; you can make an edition for "PHP7-style", maybe even one for "PHP5-style", have a mechanism for selecting them, and lock down the behaviour of each
 
@ircmaxell It's hard to estimate impact... If I knew there were thousands of codebases intentionally ignoring the count() warning - okay. But I somewhat ... don't know ... assume?! that things which were warnings for like forever are not happening often.
 
Please understand that what you are calling risky is an opinion. There are a lot of developers that don't share that opinion. And there is enough code working in production making billions of dollars that throw notices all over the place to ignore
 
coughwordpresscough
 
12:03 PM
@bwoebi I have seen codebases that rely on that sort of behavior. I have seen codebases that relied on incorrect $this values when you used to call a method statically. Never underestimate the weird things production code does
 
Do you watch Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares by any chance? At the risk of over-doing it on the analogies, there's always the one owner who's insistent that the food is great, and that's the way it's always been done, and will refuse to hear any argument that it can be any other way.
 
@ircmaxell I need to see more code ... old production code still running. ... I've seen some ... but by far not enough
 
I'm trying to create role/permission system and I came across this site: sitepoint.com/role-based-access-control-in-php
Would you guys suggest the approach in there? I mean, using four tables, etc.
 
I usually prefer to use groups and profiles @akinuri. You can end up with a heck of a lot of duplication otherwise
 
Well, in the app, the roles (just another name for grouping permissions) will be dynamic. Meaning, the user will create roles and assign permissions to them. That is the only page that I could find with some examples, so I gave it a try.
 
12:11 PM
Will you have per-object based roles, or just global roles
 
@NikiC By the way. I think moving the undefined notice to exception is too early for PHP 9 even (re your mail)
 
PHP 9 is like... 7 or 8 years away
 
@MarkR I think more like 4...5
 
Um, what's "per-object based role"? :) I have had to build complicated system with roles/permissions, so you might as well call me a newbie in this.
never*
 
I wouldn't consider it before 10-12 years passed. More like 2030
 
12:14 PM
8.0 isn't likely until 2021, 4 or 5 "minor" versions spaced a year apart,
 
The permissions are, I'd say, global. They are for viewing, editing, etc. specific pages.
 
That's an awful lot of time to wait for something which the majority of internals, and the overwhelming majority of public respondents (strawpoll.me/18629712/r) clearly want
 
@MarkR except instead of 10 kitchens per year, imagine that it is 90+% of software being written
@bwoebi for a decent feel, check out the long tail of WordPress plugins. That in my experience tends to be a decent proxy...
 
I think you're vastly under-estimating the likelyhood that within a month of this passing there wouldn't be a code parser which injected $var = null at the top of every function with suspect behaviour
 
@MarkR ... which is horrible.
You should rather fix that code properly
than hiding all the errors at once
 
12:17 PM
And that won't even fix a lot of the cases
 
Yes, you should fix it properly. But apparently wanting people to fix things is verboten
 
I want to be clear here. "Fix" in this case doesn't mean repair what is broken. It means "change code to a way I think is less likely to be broken"
 
@MarkR no, it's verboten to want people to not seamlessly migrate. They shall fix things.
 
There is a lot of production code that throws notices that works just fine and is correct
 
and a broken clock is still right twice per day... unless it's some fancy european clock which shows 24 hours, then it's only once
 
12:20 PM
Define broken in your case. Because to me, broken means doesn't make money (in a professional context at least)
 
@MarkR You can also break the clock in a way that is actually never right: just shift the numbers on the clock by 1.
 
Why are we still having this discussion?
The decision has (effectively) already been made that we're getting undef var warnings in PHP 8, and no exceptions. Which I think is eminently reasonable.
 
@bwoebi Or maybe it's just right in a different timezone?
 
@NikiC I think we rather discuss the general case than just specifically undef warnings.
 
@NikiC count() is specifically what spurred this
 
12:23 PM
But there is nothing more to discuss, is there? There are no other proposals to promote notices to exceptions.
@ircmaxell Then please, for the love of god, discuss count() and not undef vars.
 
@NikiC we are discussing notices in general
 
Mixing these issues does not help at all, because individual cases have very different externalities.
 
@NikiC we were discussing both somewhat :-D
 
We're more generally discussing if interrupting the flow of execution is a reasonable step to take for code which is ambiguous or in almost all likelihood an unhandled error condition.
 
@NikiC I disagree in general about the differences. I think it is part of a larger issue of perspective on what "correct code" is and how opinionated the language should become vs remain
 
12:25 PM
@MarkR I think we have pretty strong evidence from when the warning on count() was introduced that it is actually not an error in most cases.
That's because the number 1 trigger for the warning is count(null)
count(new NonCountable) is almost certainly a bug, but count(null) is pretty well-defined, and apparently a lot of code used that
I kinda feel like the right path here might have been to make count(null) a legal input
 
@NikiC well, then let's do that
and make anything not matching null, array or Countable an TypeError
 
... That's a possibility
 
I wonder how many counts()'s exist in ifs, vs loops.
 
Though I'm wondering if it's too late to go back on count(null) -- that's something we should have allowed in 7.2, but now most of the relevant code has already migrated anyway.
 
12:28 PM
@bwoebi set_error_handler(fn($m) => throw new TypeError($m));
 
haha
 
if set_error_handler worked more like spl_autoload_register we'd probably be having less of these discussions, as there'd be drop-in packages that threw for individual options.
 
Though tbh, count() in particular is not a hill I want to die on. The main benefit of throwing TypeError is really that it eliminates a bogus return type in most cases (which, for the record, I consider hugely beneficial and justifying the overall limited BC break the TypeError conversion introduces). But for count() we don't get that, it's already : int.
 
@NikiC I assure you that most code hasn't.
 
@bwoebi referring to library code only there
 
12:31 PM
library code is not a great measure...
 
I'd be generally okay with allowing count(null), if someone wants to bring it up on internals?
 
The only instance i can think of count() not being an error in a for (or any other kind of) loop is if it was on an object which implemented arrayaccess but not countable... and if that item only had a single element in it, ever
 
That's the general idea irc, except I think engine based things should be \Error based as a matter of course.
 
That lib is 8 years old... It predates \Error
 
12:36 PM
Hence why i said "that's the general idea"
 
Can someone give me some pointers as to how to go about optimizing a db for reads? I've two relational DBs, one is where I write for my source of truth and the other for my reads. Should I simply store the data into a denormalized table? Should I look into something like Redis for this? Does a messaging queue to enable background workers for replication make more sense in this situation?
 
That's way too complicated a question to answer without specifics 2d
 
@2dsharp how much data, and how many reads per second?
 
This is more of a hypothetical question. I'm just trying to understand what to use in what cases. Say 150M records and 10k reads/sec.
 
12:47 PM
@2dsharp what to use depends on the case. 150M records is nothing for a decently designed schema and tuned server, so from that angle you're fine
For 10k reads/sec, you definitely want some form of cache, but what that looks like depends strongly on your needs and the profile of those reads (is there high cardinality, how often does data change, etc)
@NikiC any thoughts around the community vote, and potentially removing it in favor of explicit GH activity on RFCs? Or if not in favor of removing, any ideas on how to formalize how community member should get a vote without contributions?
 
@ircmaxell I suppose joins shouldn't affect much in such magnitude. But when we look for separate reads and writes, having a separate db optimized for reads should make sense. What kind of replication should be taking place? Should I consider denormalizing that data since we are separating the db anyway(for the sake of optimization)?
 
@ircmaxell Probably makes sense to remove in favor of GH votes as a general indication of community support.
We only have like 2 or 3 people in this category anyway
 
@NikiC that few? It seemed larger...
@2dsharp denormalize when you have to. Not before.
 
@NikiC For what it's worth re: the github comment. I'd be fine with the null case. My desire is to help guard developers (and their users) from the consequences of unintuitive or ambiguous behaviour, not punish them. I don't feel that a warning that continues as if it never happens counts as a guard.
 
1:03 PM
@NikiC I can bring this up on internals if you'd like. Not sure if you know of anyone else planning this.
(Also haven't read internals in 24h, so sorry if someone has already done that)
 
morning
 
Mornin' Jay
 
1:20 PM
Youch ^
 
@MarkR I still use an offline password manager due to my own paranoia.
 
I use keypass. I wish there was a decent separate hardware token for it.
 
o/
 
1:22 PM
Ayup Joe o/
 
yo
I had to take a break from arguing on the internet for a day ... is ... is it (z) gone yet ?
 
Yes, but we've been having plenty of arguments in here for fun
 
we don't argue, we discuss ...
feels like a @PeeHaa's mom joke is missing from there, but I can't think of it ...
 
@LeviMorrison bring up which part?
 
@Gordon
@JoeWatkins these sorts of things shouldn't be missing chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/11?m=47320041#47320041
 
1:35 PM
Will you all wear red hats @JayIsTooCommon?
 
@MarkR we can't pull off hats. Exhibit one - Joe Watkins profile picture
 
Making anything "great again" needs appropriate headwear. Maybe elephpants!
 
!!blame Zeev
 
user image
4
 
^ Always
 
1:40 PM
lmao
 
Can Jeeves tweet that?
Does he tweet a picture, I can't remember
 
yeah, he's tweeted memes before
 
@mega6382 Posting to Twitter failed :-( Unknown error
 
@StatikStasis IMHO not news. A bug existed and was fixed. Yay. The bigger news is when a company sits on a bug for years leading to tons of exploits: googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2019/08/…
 
1:51 PM
@Jeeves for a bunch of developers, we really let ourselves down with you
 
@JayIsTooCommon @PeeHaa Is working on a 2.0 Jeeves now.
@ircmaxell Yeah, really!
 
@StatikStasis yeah but it's @PeeHaa. He'll get half way and his attention will get drawn to a new project. Have you seen his Github?
 
youtube.com/watch?v=LZM9YdO_QKk I <3 this video, especially with the debates we've been having recently. There's a Tom Scott for everything.
 
@Jimbo are you still Mallorca way?
 
lol no, I've been in Munich since January
Well, December actually
 
1:54 PM
@JayIsTooCommon Story of my life as well. ADHD can be frustrating, but fun and exhilarating all at the same... oh wow look at the size of this chip! tomshardware.com/news/…
 
@Jimbo .. well that's a bit different. What are you doing now?
@StatikStasis heh, that would explain a lot of pieter
 
a lotta people seem to only chat about notices, is it just me who has bumped into plenty of code where anything that doesn't kill it was absolutely ignored?
 
@JayIsTooCommon I work at Sixt. "Senior Manager Software Development". But basically, I'm a team lead for now
 
@Jimbo Ooooo congrats!
 
@Jimbo you happy there? :)
 
1:59 PM
@Ekin ++
 

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