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19:01
Also @rdlowrey I would appreciate your thoughts on ^
@DaveRandom "It might make more sense if I impl it in a dev branch and we can see how it works out" This. But also i can't imagine anyone wanting to avoid using a cache, except for maybe testing. If they did want to avoid using a cache, they could provide a NullCache object which just doesn't store any data....which would make all the code paths be the same i.e. you never need to check for whether a cache has been set or not.
user895378
I am agree with all.
user895378
Much easier to always assume the presence of a cache and you can use a NullCache if you want.
@Danack Yeh see that is where I'm torn. I generally agree, but also this idea of treating the cache as "just another resolver" makes a certain amount of sense to me
for example, you could make the cache higher priority than the hosts file simply by changing the param order
@rdlowrey There isn't an Alert-powered streams abstraction is there? Seems like there should be
As in, interfacing with the stream, not just polling it
user895378
@DaveRandom There isn't. I created one a long time ago but userland is too slow.
user895378
I'm not interested. If you want perf in a socket application you have to deal with streams directly.
user895378
The API is sane enough (though obviously not ideal).
Fair enough, was wondering more about the TLS stuff. Even if it was just a handler for that it seems like that would be a worthwhile abstraction - shouldn't be too much of a perf hit there because in general you would only use it at stream set up
user895378
19:26
I was just going to write a TlsBroker class so I could hand it a socket stream and get back a promise that resolves when TLS is enabled.
God I hate people like that panique dude who just spits out possible vulnerable code without any warning to his innocent sheeple
@rdlowrey Yes, basically that, point being that that is kind of a useful component in it's own right
user895378
Hmm ... it kind of is since most people have no idea how to do the non-blocking TLS stuff.
user895378
Should I make a separate repo for it?
user895378
I was literally opening a new file in my editor to start on the TLS and proxy stuff for artax as you pinged me.
19:30
@rdlowrey It can't hurt. I might also be a useful shared component with Aerys (or could be written that way)
user895378
Well I don't use any abstractions like that at all inside aerys ... perf is king there :) everything is done with the least possible overhead. But yeah.
user895378
I'll see what I come up with and repo it once I have something usable.
See ya next year! @rdlowrey :P
user895378
Ha, no, this is happening today/tomorrow. That's all the time that's allotted for it :)
@rdlowrey Hey you, yes you ZEND_DO_FCALL - fuck you!
19:33
@DaveRandom huh?
user895378
Yes sir.
user895378
I've even gone so far as to benchmark perf differences if I disable typehint checks in func/method signatures in my php build :)
Hi, I'm Dave Ro-optimisation, have you met my son Mike?
:-P
user895378
lol
user895378
FWIW the difference was not significant. Typehints are actually pretty fast if you're doing basically anything else in your code.
19:36
Yeah your editor is all weird. For some reason it only allows maximum two character meaningless variable names! — PeeHaa 25 secs ago
lulz
@bwoebi Just talking about engineering code for that extra droplet of perf by minimising the number of fcalls
@DaveRandom fcalls aren't expensive. all that dimension and object fetching is far more expensive. (except $this)
(as long as you aren't wasting fcalls for getters and setters which don't do anything but return/assign the property.)
user895378
Articles like that drive me nuts.
user895378
SYMFONY ISN'T HANDLING ANYTHING. VARNISH IS.
user895378
Almost none of that traffic ever hits symfony.
hello dear,
suppose i created hundreds of div id box
while($row = mysqli_fetch_array($result)) {
echo "<div>".$row['product']."</div>";
}
now i want to put all the div boxes into a jquery box to create page 1-2-3-4-5 every page should contain 10 div id. i am not quite sure how to do that. can you please give me a way to do that? any example or any suggesion.
user895378
If you tried to do an actual CRUD app where you couldn't cache everything symfony would fall over and die.
user895378
Everything is performant if you can stick varnish in front of it.
19:45
@rdlowrey so?
@oyshee Ask the JS room?
@rdlowrey very much not true...
user895378
@ircmaxell Very much true.
user895378
If you can cache things it makes no difference what you use behind the cache.
Man I need a cheat week.
user895378
19:46
Symfony has precisly zero to do with that perf.
user895378
It's misleading.
@rdlowrey in an idealized model, yes
user895378
@ircmaxell In every model.
in the real world, no. Symfony does have some impact on those numbers
user895378
Right. It has a negative impact.
19:47
I'm not saying it doesn't
user895378
If you can't cache it symfony will single-handedly burn through the ozone layer.
I heard that's how Australia's went.
@rdlowrey that I don't necessarily agree with.
user895378
Sure, if you have a supremely basic application that's largely static then you can get super performance from varnish and HAProxy despite symfony.
user895378
It's marketing bullshit.
user895378
19:50
You can't do an application. You can do something that's static-ish.
user895378
Which is fine, if that's what you need.
user895378
But it's a misrepresentation of the capabilities.
ummm
totally disagree. At scale, many large applications use write-through caching. So only writes actually hit the backend. Reads (except searches, etc) almost never hit the backend
you can do highly dynamic systems like that
user895378
And symfony will murder your writes.
user895378
read scaling is easy.
19:52
@rdlowrey it's not as heavy as you're implying. ORM is. Many components are, but totally disagree that you can't scale it...
@ircmaxell The cached value only being invalidated when one of the resources is targeted for a write?
@DanLugg it's never invalidated
user895378
My point is that if you have a real dynamic application and not something that's just lots of reads symfony is a terrible choice and will cost you an order of magnitude more at scale in terms of $$$ than a good solution.
when a write occurs, part of the write is to push the new valid information into the cache
user895378
It's a horrible choice for a scalable dynamic application unless it has very little to do with the actual work going on.
19:53
@ircmaxell Oh, so the cache is renewed on-write, not on-read.
@rdlowrey I wouldn't use it personally, but it wouldn't cost you an order of magnitude...
Gotcha.
user895378
lol compared to something like node.js it absolutely would.
user895378
But that's more the PHP web SAPI's fault than symfony's.
@DanLugg correct, there are 2 flavors, write-through (where the write occurs to cache, and something in the backend reads from cache and persists it) or write-behind (where the write occurs to disk, then it's pushed into cache)
@rdlowrey yeah, no
user895378
19:55
@ircmaxell We've had this argument before and I still wholeheartedly disagree with you.
@rdlowrey I so wish I could go deeper...
user895378
The web SAPI is a ridiculous engineering solution at scale unless you can afford to throw far more $$$ than is necessary at a problem.
user895378
Then it's great. But it's not efficient.
shared-nothing architecture is the only efficient way to get to large scale reliably...
user895378
And hardware is cheaper than human resources etc but not if you have good human resources.
19:56
I'm not even saying hardware being cheaper at this point
user895378
I disagree. I think "shared 99% of nothing" is vastly superior :)
@rdlowrey depends on the scale you're talking, and the reliability numbers you're looking for
user895378
I think we can leverage very small changes in shared nothing into massive performance improvements
anything shared becomes a reliability concern
user895378
I'm not talking about sharing anything across requests.
user895378
19:58
I'm talking about not reloading the entire program for every request.
@rdlowrey If there was a way to not share without reloading the request, then go for it
user895378
What PHP does is like opening and closing your browser to click on every link.
@rdlowrey no, it's only the application cycle that does that. Not the entire engine.
user895378
Fine, opening a new tab for every link then.
user895378
One page per tab. Nothing else. Ever.
user895378
20:00
@ircmaxell Yeah, I mean I'm working on it ... much like your stuff :) my opinions are of course informed by things that other people haven't seen in action.
which isn't so crazy... When you look at the assumptions that it lets you make
user895378
It's not crazy, but I'm of the opinion that we can do better without trading away all the assumptions it allows us.
if PHP was purely functional, then absolutely
user895378
It would help, but I don't think it's a damning thing not to be purely function.
user895378
I would like to pour out a 40oz in mourning over the massive slowdown I experience if I try to write functional code in PHP, though :)
20:03
well, in order to maintain the assumptions, you need to be 100% sure there's no shared state between requests (so a request after a cold boot must be 100% identical to request n+1)
@rdlowrey today. Not for long ;-)
user895378
@ircmaxell Don't tease, just work and let me know when that Tony Ferrari guy you know has something I can test.
@rdlowrey :-P
user895378
The only other issue I know of is PHP's current reliance on a finite pool of resource IDs. Eventually you have to reboot the VM to get around that, though provisions for transparent fatal recovery make it mostly a non-issue.
wait, huh?
@ircmaxell integer overflow with resource ids.
user895378
20:09
that.
user895378
Per request context, that is.
2.1 billion... and you're running out of them?
user895378
If you're doing 3 million requests per minute it can happen quite quickly, yes.
I mean, I can see how over time you'd use a ton, but billions? I guess
user895378
And it's not a 1:1 resource to request ratio. It's much higher than that because so many things are resources.
20:11
of course
3MM req/min per process oO
@ircmaxell 10000 req/sec and you're out of them in a week.
@bwoebi knowing PHP and long running memory management, I'd expect to need to restart PHP long before that week...
@rdlowrey I was thinking about that the other day. Objects don't suffer from this issue, surely it can't be that hard to sort out
Although personally I would throw all resource APIs away tomorrow if I could
@ircmaxell It's really not so bad.
@DaveRandom because objects can re-use identifiers after GC
resources can't...
user895378
20:13
@DaveRandom I haven't ever looked into it. I'd rather just switch to a new object-based streams API and ignore the resource problem :)
@ircmaxell Is there a reason they can't or is it simply that they currently don't?
@DaveRandom not sure
user895378
lol
user895378
20:13
> so before things get out of hand, I want to provide some context.
user895378
Probably smart.
@ircmaxell I was so sure it would be that mail…
user895378
(haven't read any further)
@DaveRandom could just be that resources (internally) aren't reference counted. So destructing one can't tell if it's destructed or not (if it's referenced), hence no idea when to free...
@ircmaxell By the way, if they are aiming for one more week before release then it is stupid.
Where's the open-source openness they've talked about?
Aside from that, spec will hopefully be good.
20:15
@ircmaxell Ahh yes that's an element of it I hadn't considered (although not an insurmountable problem)
user895378
Agree. "We're doing what we think is best for the language and don't care what you think."
@DaveRandom no, and if 6 turns (internally) resources into objects, done...
user895378
Which may or may not be good. Hard to know because their freaking process isn't open.
@DanLugg That's a bloody good question.
Tooling is about the only reason to use XML...
20:18
dl.hhvm.com/resources/PHPSpec-SneakPeak.pdf <-- sigh... At least at the declare stuff...
I personally 100% approve of what they have done there. They have actually paid people to put time into specifying what PHP, as of 5.6, is. It doesn't need to open source in the same way as phpng should have been because they are not changing anything, they are just writing down how it is now. If they had asked for community involvement a) it would have taken years and b) it would have ended up as a "this is what we want it to be" spec instead of "this is what it is"
they are just writing down how it is now <-- which I partially disagree with.
That that's what they are doing or that that's what should be done?
@LeviMorrison That was my thinking; safe delimitation is hard without escaping, but don't just use XML because XML.
@DaveRandom especially around the parser. Example: declare() is a useful way of issuing compiler directives. But that's no longer possible as the values are hard-coded into the spec.
20:21
@ircmaxell Then provide that as feedback.
where? They are saying they are going to release it. They didn't say "request for comments". They aren't asking for comments (at least yet) with the sneak peak...
@ircmaxell Hop in #hhvm when people are around.
@ircmaxell ...so then change the spec. The release process implicitly dictates that the spec, as describes 5.6, cannot change before at the very earliest 5.7. The spec should be an iterative process that matches the iterative process of the PHP release cycle.
user895378
freenode != open source ...
user895378
It's the same continuing issue I've had with FB's involvement. It's only paying lip-service to open source.
20:23
@LeviMorrison yup
@ircmaxell I got jwatzman summoned.
@DaveRandom which means there shouldn't be a "publication" but a RFC...
user895378
Right. The way FB does it is, "this is how it is," when it should be, "please comment, contribute and help revise this."
@rdlowrey Well, at least they've done something other than argue about simple arithmetic as of late
user895378
@DanLugg Hey I agree.
20:25
@ircmaxell ...but what they are releasing describes 5.6. The RFCs are done with for that iteration. It cannot change, the only reason the spec they release would need to change is if they got something actually wrong.
The spec can't be wrong, it must be PHP that's wrong!
^^ I'd prefer this way ;-)
@rdlowrey It's not meant that way
@DaveRandom it absolutely can change
@rdlowrey It's a spec, of something that already exists - there's not a lot to debate. If some wording is ambiguous somewhere then it can be clarified. But if the PHP group had been left entirely to their own devices, it would never actually happen.
20:27
The mail is quite clear about this. They want to give this into the hands of the PHP community
This is just an initial draft
@ircmaxell In what way? 5.6 is "specified".
@NikiC this
It certainly contains many errors and inaccuracies, but it's a good start
@DaveRandom what's specified behavior, and what's "undefined behavior". What's concrete for behavior, and what's open for extension by implementations.
it should have a huge "DRAFT" watermark on every page :)
(so should draft RFCs for that matter)
> They want to give this into the hands of the PHP community
When I read that, I immediately flashed back to being 8, and remember my father handing me his camera; a decision he'd come to regret quite soon.
20:29
@ircmaxell Fine. But that falls into the category of "getting things wrong", in which case it can be corrected
user895378
@NikiC version 1 isn't usually an initial draft.
@salathe Eh, I could maybe hack something together using JS but it would just be a hack.
user895378
> We've talked to some engine folks along the way to get feedback and make version 1 as good as it can be, and we're really close to releasing it (aiming for next week).
@DaveRandom well, but a lot of that is judgement calls. Which is why a "living draft" or "rfc" status is handy. "This is our proposal. Please comment and provide feedback before we solidify version 1"
@rdlowrey maybe not an "initial draft", but it's definitely a draft
20:30
@LeviMorrison I wasn't being serious... but now that I think about it... :)
user895378
@salathe Great, but how do you handle the Yasuo edge case where an RFC in voting is actually still a draft? ;)
I'm sure if people have a problem with calling it "version 1" they'll happily release it as version 0.1. Or 0.0.1.
user895378
@NikiC I dunno. Perhaps I'm just paranoid because FB is evil.
user895378
Like, really evil. No one disputes that.
20:32
I may be proved wrong - I hope I won't be - but that's the impression I get from the tone of that mail
@rdlowrey easy, we keep the watermark on all RFC pages :)
@ircmaxell You have, and a few other have.
Hardly an open process.
not arguing. which was one of my objections from the start
And I've "known" about it but using words like "release" and this is the first official post I've of it?
however, if it was done fully open before this point, it would never have actually happened...
user895378
20:33
Well, either way PHP needs a spec and FB needs a spec for the language.
@LeviMorrison which was an objection that I still have.
@rdlowrey +1
16:33 <@fred> There's also a few side issues that need fixing before it can be collaborative - for example, our tech writer is much more productive in MS Word
16:33 <@fred> one of the things we need to fix before putting up the repo, and asking for feedback/changes is converting to docbook or something else the community is comfortable
16:34 <@fred> with
16:34 <@fred> *before it can be efficiently collaborative
the community is not comfortable with DocBook!
so that's the second time today I've heard PHPNG called a new engine...
@salathe I suggested ReST
20:36
I was wondering about the characteristic default Word 2007 theme
@ircmaxell please tell them very explicitly that the community is not comfortable with docbook. They should not consider that option in the slightest.
@ircmaxell I wouldn't say the community is comfortable with that either, though of course the learning curve is faaaarrrrrrr shallower.
user895378
everyone hates I hate docbook.
even docbook authors
I suggested that they use latex, like specs usually do, though I'm not sure whether the "community" is conformable with that...
20:37
+1 for tex
@NikiC message delivered
@ircmaxell cool :)
@NikiC if it's ReST, you can convert to latex
(and vise versa)
@ircmaxell yeah, I know. used that with php internals book (for pdf)
20:39
My choice would be reST, not that my choice matter a jot. :)
@NikiC I don't think we're "comfortable" with any format as a community.
:D
@ircmaxell btw, the spec sample does not yet incorporate feedback from internals folks - quite likely some of your technical gripes will be corrected before it's released
@NikiC definitely. I just hope there's an open period for that feedback to be provided before they call it released...
@ircmaxell exactly this
@DaveRandom It's sad that working on php in the open is a such a no-go.
20:42
Hi all
Long thyme
@NikiC This is different to phpng in a very important way IMO: a spec of what already exists doesn't change anything
I'm a lot less comfortable with the phpng thing, but I do still sympathise in many ways
It's ridiculous that we have bike shedding in PHP. They will obviously end up purple.
user895378
Does anyone know of post-mortem for the CNET hack yet?
user895378
It feels very swept under-the-rug.
@rdlowrey was it a hack? or was it a honeypot?
user895378
I don't know, nobody is saying anything about it except supposedly it was a symfony problem. No one seems to know anything about it.
user895378
20:45
> W0rm said it found its way into CNET's servers through a security hole in CNET.com's implementation of the Symfony PHP framework, a popular programming tool that provides a skeleton on which developers can construct a complex website.
in HTML / CSS / WebDesign, 11 mins ago, by user3615601
Thanks, @joshhunt and @ZachSaucier. :') Sometimes I just cry because of these sexists. Like, their calling me idiot or dumb because I'm too slow in coding.
lolwut
Nothing quite so sexist as calling someone slow at coding.
@rdlowrey let me point you to a piece of history
I'm pretty sure they're altering my feed so that I only see bad questions — OGHaza 13 hours ago
Anyone have any idea why RecursiveDirectoryIterator returns different order of files in Windows and Linux?
user895378
20:49
@ircmaxell Which I totally agree with. But the actual people who did the hacking said it was a symfony issue they exploited. The media didn't single out anyone in this case.
@rdlowrey were they the people who did it? Or did they just take credit for it?
@webarto ordering is filesystem dependent and shouldn't be relied upon
user895378
I don't know. I'm just saying someone should come out and say something about it regardless of what went down. Even if that's "hey, something happened. We're trying to find out what and if there's something we need to fix."
user895378
Instead of pretending nothing happened.
not arguing that point
@webarto DirectoryStuff is like doing a sql query without a order by
Pure magic
20:51
@ircmaxell @PeeHaa yes, yes... it loads assets e.g. jquery.js after all the "plugins"... thanks
Do any of you have a handle on why the return type implementation is stopped? @NikiC @ircmaxell @bwoebi
I'm not feeling well and am going to take sick leave; might try working on the issue but can't since I'm not really sure what it is :D
@LeviMorrison we ran into an issue which required revisiting how to implement it...
Sure, what's the issue?
basically, interface verification happens during the first compile run, rather than the delayed late binding run
and delayed late binding only hooks inheritance, it doesn't hook anything else.
so basically, we'd need to either refactor delayed late binding to provide arbitrary hooks to late bind anything, or add a new set of opcodes and handlers to do a new type of delayed late binding
last I left it, Joe was going to run with that concept. Not sure where he got (if at all)...
@LeviMorrison does that make sense?
We could ship with a delayed, late binding run but that's a perf hit.
And errors would be caught at later stages.
21:01
it's not a perf hit
late binding still happens at compile time
but it's when during the compile
normally, the compile is cached by the opcache. The delayed part happens after opcache fills the symbol table (it has to)
Shocker: a problem when interoperating with Opcache
so it would still happen within the compile time of the script (not at runtime), but "which" compile time is the question
@LeviMorrison yup
Can't we just ship it and let Zend fix it?
:D
if only
I'd be tempted to, since opcache still doesn't statically compile...
Htm5l <-- 20 minute bug
6
@ircmaxell So... do we not have a way to do compile-time late binding?
What's the issue there?
there is a way, for inheritance
but to re-use that would require some refactoring. Or we could add a new pointer for late-bounded return hints.
@joe was doing something last I looked, but not sure
user895378
@DanLugg nice. I spent three hours debugging the other day only to discover that my test case was wrong and the code I'd been scouring and losing my mind over was correct.
@rdlowrey step 1: verify test is sane. Step 2: verify implementation is sane. Step 3: verify test and implementation are doing same thing. Step 4: profit
user895378
Sometimes I feel like Step 1 should be "verify programmer is sane." Often I feel might fail that one.
the only little difference is that the first question is shown as "dynamicly coded" while the second question with the same requested output has is shown as "hardcoded"
sorry the possible duplicate is : stackoverflow.com/questions/10279507/post-text-box-array-in-php <- copy paste issue
@rdlowrey yeah, that's true (not that step 1 should be verifying programmer is sane, but that you'd fail it if it was)
:-P
@MikeM. Not sure marking an already closed question as a dupe of an incomprehensibly bad question will achieve anything. On the other hand:
user895378
21:29
lol :)
There are only 2 kinds of people working in technology: those that are new, and those that are nuts. And I've been doing this a while
I already marked that before it got on hold
but no one seems to mind the search function yet this: stackoverflow.com/questions/24887942/… is a duplicate of: stackoverflow.com/questions/10279507/post-text-box-array-in-php
yet this question: stackoverflow.com/questions/10279507/post-text-box-array-in-php gives enough information and enough answers on how to handle it...
user895378
I've embraced it at this point. The nuts part of it, that is. I just try to make sure that I keep myself physically healthy and emotionally motivated to stay balanced. But the slightly crazy part I just accept ... it never really goes away ... not if you keep coming back to the code.
user895378
21:32
And on that note I am going to go take a nap so I can come back and code more in a couple of hours.
see the comments of the question I just sent as possible duplicate:
"possible duplicate of Post text box array in PHP – Mike M. 7 hours ago"
while the question got flagged for too broad just 4 hours ago - something ain't right rofl
user895378
I'll catch you folks on the other side of my sheep-counting expedition.
@MikeM. It's not just search, it's knowing what to look for, then learning how to thing in an abstract enough way to apply someone else's problem and solution to your problem...
@Charles I don't really get what you mean...
@MikeM. There are zero words in common between the two questions, but they're still both talking about the same thing. The dupe asker might not even know how to describe what he's doing well enough to find the dupe, no less be able to understand the different question and answer....
21:38
OOh well all I searched for like he asked in the comments is "how to read out input arrays with a $_POST" <-- on google and I got on that question with the correct answers for this user....
yet why wouldn't other people rather set on "too broad" then take 5 seconds to search and at the end mark it as possible dupe. with the correct answers given...
Easier than finding just the right dupe...
@Charles Yet the one I sent is the right dupe... even through it isn't "dynamic" but hard coded doesn't mean it has any difference in the array meaning yet the only difference is the naming
The dupe asker uses: stuff[] - which hands over on every added textbox
the possible dupe uses: itemName[]
user895378
@NikiC It sounds great until you realize you could do about 15x more with node
user895378
I just am annoyed by the insinuation that somehow symfony is responsible for good performance
21:44
holy crapballs
@rdlowrey I'm referring to your complaint that this is purely cache performance
oh my does moderators check for edits or "magic gold hammered" users???
user895378
@NikiC My complaint was that anything performs well when most of its computations can be cached.
user895378
And 1B/week is terrible by comparison to better technologies.
The comment indicates that symfony alone is serving a billion requests per month
as such the title is accurate
user895378
21:46
Now I'm just confused.
user895378
per month?
user895378
I don't understand what that comment is saying at all.
user895378
> Note that 700 req/s is handled purely by Symfony2 application - that gives 1 billion traffic.
If you want to calculate estimated maximum throughput with 100% cache-hits (to Varnish) multiply 1 Billion by 2 (it's 12k req/s for Varnish and 700 req/s - Symfony).
So in fact it's 1 Billion requests handled purely by PHP :-)
user895378
I don't understand anything about that comment
or week, whatever ^^
didn't do the numbers, not sure what he's referring to there
also not sure if that's supposed to be 1.2k or 12k for varnish
if it's 12k it's hardly multiply by 2
user895378
21:50
In any case, the point is this: I believe that using symfony is the last approach you should take -- short of hooking up a computer to a potato as a power source -- if you want to write a scalable and efficient application by virtue of its horrific inefficiency compared to the myriad other solutions on the market.
user895378
Unless you can cache most of your content, in which case it matters not one iota what you use for the dynamic portion because the dynamic portion is such an inconsequential part of the performance results.
user895378
By my calculations a good solution should be capable of serving 15-20 times more per week. It sounds good because 1B is a big number. But over a week? That's fucking terrible.
user895378
Of course, maybe 0.01% of symfony applications will ever reach a point where it matters, so who cares.
:)

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