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5:00 PM
that's what made sceptical
ah! okay. no wonder IEEE recommends them:
> He has been on the Editorial Boards of IEEE Software and The Cutter IT Journal. He is a member of the IEEE and Tau Beta Pi.
 
Going to use the information about the short opening tags to edit this question and answer: stackoverflow.com/questions/1184628/php-difference-include-eval
Now I know how the answer actually works, though, it doesn't seem the title is correct. Is it a good idea to change it to something like "Equivalent of include using eval"
 
Something about editing the title of a question that old just feels wrong to me...
 
@meWantToLearn If you specifically map to a database table, I don't know. But when I map some piece of data to some kind of external tool or service I call the class a Gateway.
So I'd say it's a Database Gateway.
 
gotta love the google: google.de/…
 
5:11 PM
Hmm.
All 860 pages
 
@LeviMorrison Is that like a DAO, specific for your storage option?
 
@Jimbo No, it's the opposite: it's a common interface that completely abstracts the storage option.
 
Oh okay, so whatever implements the 'gateway' interface is your DAO then?
 
A DAO by definition, yes; I'm not sure about the associated culture around a DAO, though.
 
5:17 PM
Cool, I get it
 
But it doesn't have to be a database implementing the Gateway.
 
:D
No of course, that's the point. It could be flat file, or anything, but it must adhere to that interface - the point of which makes it easy to switch in and out different storage types
 
Yeah.
 
@LeviMorrison I'm learning :)
 
It's one of those patterns that I generally adhere to but not always.
 
5:18 PM
Can I just ask - where do you declare your interface? Directly above your DAO?
 
Where I work, the proof of concept is ALWAYS the product. So if i don't work it into the poc, then it goes to production that way.
 
@Jimbo . . . you mean in the same file?
 
@LeviMorrison Yep
Or do you place them in a separate folder, like 'interfaces', or 'core' or something...
 
3.1. Ten commandments:
1. Thou shalt get smarter (provide education).
2. Thou shalt focus on quality.
3. Thou shalt listen to the customer.
4. Thou shalt understand the problem.
5. Thou shalt work within a repeatable process.
6. Thou shalt not agree to ridiculous schedules.
7. Thou shalt measure the product, the process and yourself.
8. Thou shalt document the work in the most effective way.
9. Thou shalt remember that others will also work on the software.
10. Thou shalt continually improve
2
 
5:19 PM
@Jimbo I would not declare it above the DAO, no.
 
sounds a lot like the agile manifesto. although the book is much older.
 
My file hierarchy is always changing, but currently looks something like:
Entity/
    Person.php
Gateway/
    Person.php //an interface
    // implementations go here as well
 
hmmm. "May be reproduced ONLY for student use at the university level When used in conjunction with Software Engineering: A Practitioner's Approach." - I think it's a summary of the book. Great.
 
Ah cool, okay
 
i'm still trying to get myself out of this one -> "Thou shalt not agree to ridiculous schedules. "
 
5:24 PM
@ircmaxell Just drop it.
You won't be able to do anything against the inclusion and at this point I honestly think that it would be a bad idea to not include it
Now that the release has already been delayed a few times for this
 
@NikiC I'm not replying again
 
I quit caring about the RFC process.
I've been involved long enough to know that it's broken in pretty much every RFC anyway, so I just let whatever happens happen.
Put in my two cents and go back to doing something about the part of life I can actually change.
 
@LeviMorrison que sera sera?
 
@Gordon Basically.
 
@LeviMorrison My goal is to show how the system is being gamed by the few. Not that it's just broken, but showing where it's broken and bringing clarity to the true underlying problems
AKA: what Pierre just brought up...
> Yes, but what should be put on rest is not the RFCs process, which work out of the box for 99.99% but the way you habdle it and the total lack of respect for the different opinions raised here or on other lists. That'd to end at some point.
 
5:30 PM
I've also realized that PHP is fundamentally against academic change.
3
 
I've got a blog post I've been drafting about dropping BC and starting to think differently.
 
Something that improves the language in the sense of enabling the programmer should make it into the language at some point.
 
I'm not saying that 5.4, 5.5, 5.6, 5.7 should all be backwards incompatible, but I think that it's ridiculous that many core devs don't allow general clean up because there isn't any benefit beyond cleanup. It's like they don't care that the language isn't tidy.
 
No, I'm not saying that
 
5:32 PM
Didn't imply you did.
 
I'm saying that we should stop focusing on making backwards compatible changes, and instead think and approach the problem differently. Focus on making changes that are forward compatible, and provide a simple migration path for existing users...
 
It's one reason annotations are appealing to me as #-style comments.
 
as # comments?
 
Yeah.
Something akin to compiler directives in a compiled language.
I know a lot of people don't like that.
Maybe I'm biased because I like C and it's a widely accepted practice.
 
Ahh, a pre-processor system
or something like that
macros
but syntax level macros
 
5:36 PM
Something like that, yeah.
 
@ircmaxell ;-)
related: sweetjs.org
 
@igorw what was that wink towards? Should I be afraid or happy?
 
that wink was towards macros being awesome
 
I realize that now :-D
@igorw that's actually pretty interesting... Not sure that I like it, but it's interesting
 
it could possibly be used to implement a cond keyword like this: gist.github.com/igorw/5108456
 
5:44 PM
Hi everyone. Where can i find good implementation of Directed Acyclic Graph in SQL (for MySQL server, so no recursion) in pure SQL and without need to form recursive queries from PHP (and ofc without thousands of JOINs)? Or maybe a tip how to make one?
inb4: asking here because DBA.stackexchange is more for admins and also there's no live room for SQL here (its either dead or it just doesn't exist here).
 
@Ivan0x32 I assume you've already asked the internets.
 
@igorw why that over ternary?
 
user895378
I could make sweet, sweet love to this sentiment:
 
user895378
16 mins ago, by ircmaxell
I'm saying that we should stop focusing on making backwards compatible changes, and instead think and approach the problem differently. Focus on making changes that are forward compatible, and provide a simple migration path for existing users...
 
@rdlowrey I don't know if I should be proud or afraid of that comment
 
user895378
5:49 PM
Probably both.
 
user895378
At a certain point improvements start asymptotically approaching ineffectiveness without BC breaks.
 
user895378
Sometimes you just need to, in the words of H.L. Mencken, "spit on your hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats."
 
I need to finish that post
and publish this one
 
user895378
In the same vein ... you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
 
hey dude how do i update my XAMPP ?
i'm on macosx
i think i have PHP 1.0
 
5:54 PM
any of you himym fans knowing why there is so owl references in almost any episode? cant find anything on the web about it.
 
user895378
Welcome to the @rdlowrey compendium of useful quotations: serving up delightful maxims since 1983 1982 (forgot when I was born for a minute).
 
@Gordon is not PHP related
 
Shame on me, seen but didn't checked codeproject link... i'm soo dumb -___-
 
@donotusetabtodigitthisnick sue me
 
5:55 PM
Thank you!
 
@Gordon np np )
do you know how can i update XAMPP?
just download new one and replace which dirs?
i have lot of DBs and web apps on my own
 
@rdlowrey which is why I said "migration path". Break BC, that's good. But give users a way to get up. Meaning have some way of providing BC, even if it requires changes to their source code...
 
user895378
Sounds eminently sensible to me.
 
unfortunately that means it'll be rejected by the PHP community...
 
user895378
^ yields:
 
user895378
5:58 PM
27 mins ago, by Levi Morrison
I've also realized that PHP is fundamentally against academic change.
 
user895378
Or the other way around but I don't know how to make an upside-down circumflex accent mark (hat ^ in layman's terms).
 
academic change is fundamentally against PHP?
3
 
bye bye OOP
time for RF PHP
 
I need to write a post about that... :-D
 
@rdlowrey :D
 
6:06 PM
@ircmaxell RF PHP ?
 
no
 
Wish someone write PHP++ with much to tidy all up :P
 
@ircmaxell I see what you did there, so we have PHP BC and PHP NBC, and NBC is the company you work for, oooh, funny.
 
6:16 PM
@webarto he cannot do that. he'd get sued from both :D
 
PHPNBC?
 
@Gordon is that isset() method acceptable practice to use over strlen()?
 
@ircmaxell left associativity mostly, but also the fact that ternaries don't allow you to throw or return
 
expert sex change, what's seen, cannot be unseen.
 
@webarto word
 
6:23 PM
@igorw fair enough
 
@crypticツ E_MISSING_CONTEXT Oo
 
@Gordon the link you posted above
 
Hi to all
 
@crypticツ ah that. ignore it. it's a "PHP fork based on the PHP 5.3.6 code".
 
@Tyr43l @preinheimer The creative use of maths to rush an untested engine component by mr. "give the language a rest" is my favorite part.
 
user895378
6:27 PM
@Gordon @crypticツ Meh ... if you're manipulating strings often it makes sense to cache the length and update it incrementally anyway -- that avoids the "oh no function overhead vs. isset" issue altogether.
 
user895378
If performance is critical, that is. Otherwise strlen is more readable by an order of magnitude IMHO.
 
nice project name generator...
<?php
		$c1[] = 'integrated';
		$c1[] = 'total';
		$c1[] = 'systematized';
		$c1[] = 'parallel';
		$c1[] = 'functional';
		$c1[] = 'responsive';
		$c1[] = 'optional';
		$c1[] = 'synchronized';
		$c1[] = 'compatible';
		$c1[] = 'balanced';

		$c2[] = 'management';
		$c2[] = 'organizational';
		$c2[] = 'monitored';
		$c2[] = 'reciprocal';
		$c2[] = 'digital';
		$c2[] = 'logistical';
		$c2[] = 'transitional';
		$c2[] = 'incremental';
		$c2[] = 'third-generation';
		$c2[] = 'policy';

		$c3[] = 'options';
 
@crypticツ it's a microptimization at best to use isset[10] over strlen < 10
 
Yeah, I'd prefer the latter as it won't require having to put a comment // check to see if less than 10 just so others know why the hell I'm doing isset()
 
@crypticツ exactly. you'd only prefer the isset variant after you profiled your application and found that it would make sense to change it. and then comment would be perfectly appropriate, too.
 
user895378
 
anyone know if anything from that fork actually made it back into PHP? did he send any PRs?
 
user895378
I wonder how long it will be before I get tired of Snookie :)
 
Evening yall
 
@ircmaxell I lol'd
 
@Gordon nada to my knowledge
 
6:38 PM
 
@Ocramius nice
 
I actually built an AbstractDiServiceFactoryFactory in PHP </proud> :D
 
@Ocramius Make it a Singleton
 
@Gordon NEVAH!
I can make an abstract factory that produces such a factory
AbstractAbstractDiServiceFactoryFactoryFactory
if you read it fast it looks like I'm having language issues
 
that awkward moment when you realize the AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean you thought was a joke exists https://jira.springsource.org/browse/SPR-8680
 
6:45 PM
@Gordon:
Actually, an AbstractSingletonProxyFactory seems legit to me... as Beat? Hmm...
 
@Ocramius O … M … G
 
\o/
 
@Gordon to be fair, it's deprecated. :D
 
Huh? O_o
 
the AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean, that is.
 
6:47 PM
ah, the one by spring... Yeah
 
@igorw it likely was not enterpricey enough :)
 
@igorw but anyway, I think I'll have an AbstractLazyObjectProxyFactoryin my new lib \o/
and also an AbstractAsyncObjectProxyFactory - (that's jsor's fault)
 
random fun fact: i like spelling enterprise enterprice because managers will enter any price for a false sense of security and quality.
 
InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonWindowNo‌​tFocusedState
 
Was it here that I've got pointed at infoq.com/presentations/Infinitely-Extensible ?
@igorw the "Not" is fantastic
 
6:55 PM
@Ocramius recommended watch?
 
@igorw nothing you can learn from
 
I love how "building a website dedicated to $x" makes you an "expert" in $x... Just like writing a book in $y makes you an "expert" in $y...
 
@Gordon were you at IPC last october? O_o
 
@Ocramius yes
@Ocramius i retract my statement about the DiAbstractServiceFactoryFactory. its ugly but its a fitting name for the concept
 
@Gordon missed you because I didn't know ya then :)
 
7:00 PM
@Ocramius did you see the talk about DSLs I gave with tobySen?
 
@Gordon I like to joke about it :) It's funny how people keep mocking java while we're already going that direction without even noticing...
@Gordon nope :( I didn't connect the name and therefore didn't go
 
@Ocramius you are not supposed to go to sessions because of the names but because of the content ;)
 
@Gordon I honestly can remember very little of this last IPC... it was kinda "empty"
 
@Ocramius your faces looks kinda familiar though
 
@Gordon I'm the annoying guy who stays in first row and tries to always ask questions
Typical one you'd want to punch in da face
 
7:04 PM
@Ocramius now that you say it
 
Uh, so. Possibly noobish question. I've got a variable inside a foreach loop that just will not retain its value when the loop ends and I try to return it. I feel like I'm missing something fundamental. Pastie: pastie.org/6413932#
 
@Ocramius it could be I saw you do that :D
 
@Gordon haha, I placed one question per talk at least :)
 
@Kate typo: $result = "XML FOUND."
 
...sonofa. ..thanks. xD
 
7:10 PM
@Kate you are welcome
 
I am not used to writing without a compiler check. Is there a something better out there than eclipse? (Which crashes on me routinely.)
 
@Kate PHPStorm is pretty decent. but it's not free
 
Thanks much, I'll check those out!
 
Hmm... looks like there is no method to check if a typehint for a method is callable...
 
7:15 PM
/me is bored
 
@ircmaxell got any idea for $reflectionParameter->isCallable() equivalent wanna-be?
 
huh?
 
can't find a way to retrieve the typehint of a method public function foo(callable $bar) {}
 
@Gordon no, I'm talking about the ReflectionParameter instance
 
hrm hrm hrm
 
Method [ <internal:Reflection> public method isCallable ] {

- Parameters [0] {
}
}
 
so it's un-documented
 
yes
 
awesome :) thx
 
7:18 PM
@Ocramius which could mean that it is also unimplemented
 
turns out it isnt
 
good =D
 
with the ReflectionAPI it often helps to do php --rc Classname on the shell
 
@Ocramius go ahead and add it to the docs: edit.php.net
 
7:20 PM
@ircmaxell was looking for that =)
 
:-P
 
groan... vcs account? :S Then bug be it
 
@Ocramius you can login without one
 
@Gordon oh, thx for letting me notice the button =D
 
7:30 PM
Hey everyone
 
crap... github just rejected a push
 
user895378
lol @hakre making friends:
 
user895378
@hakre WTF DUDE... JUST READ BOTH QUESTIONS AND THEN START BARKING...SERIOUSLY SICK OF GUYS LIKE U ... IF U CAN'T HELP THEN JUST KEEP UR LOUSY MOUTH SHUT, DON'T FIND ANY RESEMBLANCE OR SIMILARITIES B/W QUESTION...NOW BE A BITCH AND FLAG/REPORT MY REPLY ...... — user2083529 4 mins ago
 
user895378
That'll teach @hakre to cv a questions as a dup!
 
7:36 PM
@rdlowrey yes triple OMG :)
 
there was a reason .. see ..i got 2 valid responses after posting it again...so there was a reason for posting it again . — user2083529 Mar 4 at 12:48
^ if it works, there is the proof ... hmm ... I'm probably to patient.
 
hmm... is it just me or are these edits not saved? O_o
 
@ircmaxell this one really made you famous :)
 
7:47 PM
I would also suggest reading the FAQ and dontbeajerkwhenyouneedhelpfromothers.comrdlowrey 7 mins ago
404 :(
 
@Hiroto wat O_o
 
Hello! Is anyone here able to help an OOP newb with spl_autoloader and a problem I am having where mysqli is getting caught by the autoloader?
 
@Ocramius i giggled
 
@Alexander Thank you. I am obviously new here :-P
 
7:50 PM
@Hiroto feels just soooo wrong...
 
not as bad as uncatchable fatal errors
 
PHP sadness, for real? xD
 
@Bil1 the problem is that you don't have mysqli compiled on your server
 
OK... I have been working on this problem all day and I just don't understand what I am doing wrong. Yesterday I restructured my object classes to conform with standards. I used the standardised autoloader which sat the the root of the lib folder and everything was magically working. But then when I tried to make a class that instantiated a new mysqli object I got an error where autloader.php was trying to load /lib/vendor_nam_here/core/mysqli.php...
mysqli is installed and works fine if I don't try to use an autoloader at all.
 
this guy actually goes through the php source, and finds fun little snippets: phpsadness.com/sad/40
 
7:53 PM
what's the full class name?
 
What I was doing to make this work is including a db.php file that connects then setting that variable global within the functions that needed DB access... which is ugly.
Which class? I have several classes at the moment :-P
 
@Hiroto not sure, but it may be because some people set "true" instead of the buffer size in php.ini (not a justification)
 
I made a post here earlier today before lunch:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15277801/php-spl-autoloader-register-attempting-to-load-mysqli
but no love yet
 
@ircmaxell Who is she calling Mr?
 
@webarto Zeev
 

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