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6:00 PM
Oh.
 
@Xeo Do as the lambdas do in that respect.
 
@ThePhD I should tell you it's not but whatever
 
@BartekBanachewicz But it is! <333
 
Oh... I get it now :D
Thanks @Borgleader
 
6:00 PM
Alllll the typesafety and fast rendering.
 
@ThePhD well, it isn't. you have too many classes
 
I have just enough classes to make this the most pleasant coding experience of my life.
Besides, how do you know how many classes I have?
 
I know you have your own vector
that's enough for me not to use this ever
 
Good thing you're not on my team then. :D
 
"my team"
sounds profound.
 
6:02 PM
mathematical vector classes are piss easy to write and there's not much efficiency to be gained by adding a dependency :|
 
@BartekBanachewicz: I expect to Minicraft to hit beta by summer. I need something to play :)
 
what do you mean what?
There's nothing "advanced" or difficult about Euclidean vectors
 
@Rapptz matrices and shit too.
 
@Rapptz Also SSE and AVX. And depending on your code, rather than some dipshit in piss-end of nowhere.
 
6:02 PM
@Borgleader We'll see about that.
 
I'm talking Euclidean vectors yet you people are talking about matrices :|
A vector is a 1 dimensional matrix
nothing advanced about it
you shouldn't even need to transpose it
 
if you write your own vectors you need matrices too
that's fucking obvious.
 
Q: I get why getters and setters are useful, but in some cases, changing something has no relation to anything else. However, I think it breaks the consistency of other things. What should I choose?
 
@Pawnguy7 too unspecific. try again.
 
@BartekBanachewicz And the problem with writing your own math library is exactly what?
 
6:04 PM
@DomagojPandža it's pointless. no pun intended
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Well, since I effectively do the same thing as a lambda expression (generating a closure type in the nearest enclosing scope), I think it should be fine.
 
But as we already know, ThePhd digs pointless stuff
 
Xeo
I think I'll just write that thing out as a macro and test around a bit
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well, For my Book class, I have a std::string title. I want to be able to get and set the title, but it affects nothing else. Private with getTitle(), setTitle(std::string title), or public: std::String title`?
 
@Pawnguy7 are you sure title should be mutable for a book?
 
Xeo
6:05 PM
Why would you ever even want to change the title?
 
how often a book instance changes its title?
 
Edition?
 
Xeo
Set it through the constructor, and have a getter.
 
1st Edition, 2nd Edition etc
 
@Rapptz that's another book
 
6:06 PM
@FredOverflow Are there seriously no close votes?
 
Xeo
@Rapptz That should be a seperate variable, if anything. And it certainly isn't the same book anyways.
 
@Xeo Definitely not, with how schools charge for them.
"We're using teh sceond edition. YOU MUST HAVE TEH SECOND EDITION OR ELSE."
 
Xeo
lol
 
@Mysticial apparently not :)
 
Hm... you have a point. My problem was the constructor, but what I could do is as you suggest, and have the, say, addChapter(Chapter chapter) method seperately (you wouldn't add a vector of chapters in the constructor)
 
6:07 PM
Second Edition Changelog:
Moved 1 chapter around. Changed page 5 with a few new words.
 
Xeo
Ew
 
@ThePhD doesn't matter
@Pawnguy7 wait what.
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Scott's Effective C++ editions were atleast complete rewrites, basically...
 
Point is.
 
@FredOverflow I'm impressed. :)
 
6:08 PM
See, that's Scott.
 
Actually, it's far from pointless. But, I'm not @CatPlusPlus, I' don't have to die first not to get in discussions with people over the internets. Whatever floats your boat. ^_^
 
why do you want to change them at runtime?
 
No every other book writer on the planet.
 
@Mysticial Maybe a glitch in the matrix?
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Note: ThePhD never said he wants to.
 
6:08 PM
lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz remember yesturday we were discussing (I think) a database exercise?
 
@Xeo @Pawnguy7 said he wants
@Pawnguy7 of course
 
@DomagojPandža wat, no wai, I thought you were Cat++.
 
Xeo
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@ThePhD doesn't matter
 
that's why I said CDs are a nice idea
 
Xeo
6:09 PM
I was referring to you referring to him
@DeadMG Wat
 
13 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
also, i have countless bruises from falling of the stairs and running into walls
please be easy on me today
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why?
 
@DeadMG <3
 
@BartekBanachewicz this was it. A library, of sorts, to work on both that and abstracting the data. Anyway, I was hoping to have a simple gui to read things by chapter, page, book, etc, (making use of the data), and also allow it to be edited, say, the user creates a new book.
 
For calling people retarded, that was a pretty retarded thing to do.
 
6:10 PM
@DomagojPandža Don't <3 me. You've been deceiving me our whole relationship!
 
@Rapptz what? I called only Zoidberg retarded.
@Pawnguy7 well, yea, but my point here is that while the abstraction can be nice, it isn't exactly how it works in practice
 
@DeadMG He only did it because Cat-Dog relationships are frowned upon.
2
He did it because he wanted to protect you!
 
if you model something from the real world, keeping to it usually helps
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, the "in theory, it is exactly the same in theory as in practice, but in practice, it isn't." right? :D
 
parsing...
more or less.
 
Xeo
6:12 PM
@DeadMG Did you seriously believe that?
 
@BartekBanachewicz given that you want to accomplish my task described above, how would you represent books, chapters, authors, etc?
 
@Xeo Do I seriously have a relationship with a fat 50-year-old Czech cockface?
3
 
Xeo
Who knows.
 
@Pawnguy7 a book is constructed from author name, title, ..., and the sorted collection of chapters.
these things don't change.
In theory, however, you could add an errata, so appending more chapters might not be that stupid
I don't know what the goal is
you should model your data in order to reach the goal.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think I got that, now, but let's say this is not so much real books. In such a way that the user would be able to edit said books. Either that, or some sort of manascript...
 
6:17 PM
@Pawnguy7 If you can't clearly describe the thing you're trying to represent, you'll probably have a hard time representing it
conversely, when you've figured out what it is and how it behaves, the representation might fall out pretty easily
 
@BartekBanachewicz although, I had planned to not give books an author, but rather, assign a book TO an author. Not sure if that is a good idea.
@Useless I am guessing that is my real problem, lack of planning, yes...
 
meh, sometimes the gaps in your mental model aren't obvious until you start trying to code and it falls apart
 
@Pawnguy7 i am afraid i am too tired to think about that now
implement it, not too complex, and show me a proof of concept
me and yourself, obviously
if you happen to see that you find it hard to do something, it might be a design flaw
 
Xeo
TIL about GCC 4.8's -std=c++1y option
 
1y ?
 
6:22 PM
1y?
14?
 
The new DI.fm is so sexy o.o
 
i am actually going to listen to Lana Del Rey now and fuck everything
where is my goddamn beer.
 
@Xeo What language features does it activate?
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Return type deduction for normal functions
 
auto foo() { return 42; }? Awesome!
 
Xeo
6:28 PM
Aye
Well, it's a proposal :P
Maybe even for C++14
 
std::array is C++11?
 
Xeo
Aye
 
yeah
 
@TonyTheLion boost::array is C++03.
 
Xeo
6:29 PM
std::tr1::array is also C++03
Well, somewhat
 
@Xeo TR1 is part of C++03? I thought TR1 was 2005 or something.
 
@Xeo is so hipster C++11 is old for him
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow No, that's why the "somewhat"
It's non-C++11, I should say
 
what version of GCC has C++11 support? From GCC 4.6 onward?
 
4.7?
 
Xeo
4.7 has official -std=c++11, IIRC. Before that, it was -std=c++0x, and rather incomplete.
 
@TonyTheLion 4.4 iirc
 
4.3 already had rvalue references and variadic templates.
 
4.3 was years ago
Also, OpenGL 5!
OpenGL 5 is said to be transformed to more OO model
and it will fucking rock.
 
Isn't OO kinda outdated by now? How about monadic OpenGL? ;-)
 
6:33 PM
meh.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I smell fanboyism.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I like OpenGL and never hide it.
 
@FredOverflow Hm, would it be feasible to have a purely functional rendering API?
 
Last I checked, it already has an (perhaps unconventional) OO model.
 
nah, but they mean it like for real
 
6:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, so no global vars?
 
at least that's what my coworkers told me
 
Also, how does OpenGL handles multi threading?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Without global vars.
Contexts are thread local.
 
(Disclaimer: I'm not an OpenGL user)
 
multiple contexts
 
6:34 PM
Oh, so like D3D. Alright.
 
Well, still it's the damn C API
but I feel optimistic towards it
When I become the king of the world, I will ban C
 
I wonder if it's in C because of the standard ABI.
 
I think people overreact about this API thing.
 
peopel eh
 
6:36 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes People don't. Bartek does.
 
I overreact about everything
so you have to bias it appropriately.
 
Yeah, I noticed.
 
take everything said in this room with a truckload of salt
 
@EtiennedeMartel No, you will find lots of people that will say lots of things about the OpenGL API and how it needs to be fixed and so on.
 
most valuable lesson learned since day 4
 
6:37 PM
@TonyTheLion Or rather, with a truckload of salt.
 
@EtiennedeMartel ok a truckload
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, like for any library that's actually used?
 
But the important question is "Will the/a new API give the power to do things you could not do before?"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The problem is, yes the API can be fixed by a decent wrapper, but most wrappers suck terrifically badly.
 
7
Q: How would I have to imagine pixel-based rendering in Haskell?

FredOverflowImagine an imperative rendering engine that blits sprites to a bitmap that later gets displayed. This heavily relies on the ability to efficiently mutate individual pixels in said bitmap. How would I do such a thing an a language without side effects? I guess a completely different data structure...

 
6:37 PM
@DeadMG So unexpected.
 
so I checked in borked code the other day without realizing
I'm a terrible human being
 
> There are only two kinds of programming languages: those people always bitch about and those nobody uses.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes OK. Let me rephrse that: It's rather hard to find a wrapper that doesn't suck.
 
Replace "programming languages" with "libraries" and it still works.
 
@DeadMG my wrapper doesn't suck! :)
 
6:38 PM
Because I never see someone complaining about the API and mentioning some thing that cannot possibly work with the current API.
 
@DeadMG lets write a good OpenGL wrapper
 
Hmm, now, I wonder why nobody bitches about Haskell...
 
I just impose very strict limitations.
@TonyTheLion guess what I am doing right now.
 
@EtiennedeMartel because its epic
 
@TonyTheLion Refer to the previous quote.
 
6:39 PM
@BartekBanachewicz oh good
 
@EtiennedeMartel Complaints are usually targeted at the tools and some standard library stuff.
 
@EtiennedeMartel lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not about "Cannot possibly work", it's about, "Should not require a thousand man-hours of wrapping before you can even begin".
 
Nov 18 '12 at 2:25, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Num is crappy anyway.
 
except I target my wrapper to be actually useful, compared to ThePhD's one
 
6:39 PM
@EtiennedeMartel There! An instance of complaining.
 
@LucDanton Maybe the tools suck because there are not enough users.
 
File this example in 'standard library stuff'.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why do you always bring harsh truths in the discussion?
 
because he's a robot
he not programmed to deal with lies :P
 
@EtiennedeMartel I don't know. Tons of C++ users, some tools keep getting used. So it would not be the sole factor.
 
6:41 PM
feed him lies and you'll get UB
 
'Bad enough is good'?
 
I'm trying to piss on Haskell. Stop bringing up good arguments.
 
You're not going to piss on Haskell here
too many fanboys
 
I suck at math, anyway.
 
also according to chart, it's awesome
 
6:42 PM
oh yes
 
Haskell was on 2nd place right?
 
robot, help me please, my grammar, it's ambiguous :(
 
May 21 '12 at 15:40, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@CatPlusPlus Except records.
There! Complaints about the language itself!
I have them all, baby.
 
The language has little to it. Mostly because upcoming features spend a lot of time being compiler extensions. Things suck, but either they have a non-standard superior alternative or they're non-standard.
 
The only math thing I'm somewhat good at is linear algebra.
 
6:43 PM
@LucDanton And being in GHC make them a de facto standard anyway.
@DeadMG lol, haha
 
Is there a good example of something non-standard that sucks but already has another non-standard superior alternative?
 
it works fine unless you have an overload set containing both template and non-template functions.
 
Xeo
Btw robot, you got me. I like vim now. :P
5
 
> Haskell is faster than C++, more concise than Perl, more regular than Python, more flexible than Ruby, more typeful than C#, more robust than Java, and has absolutely nothing in common with PHP.
 
@DeadMG Right, but having a new API won't be so much better than just having a nice wrapper, because it brings zero new power.
 
6:44 PM
What's not as fun as GADTs again?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, except having a nice wrapper would be fine, except none exists and everybody who wants to do OGL has to make their own.
 
I think that's rank2 and rankN types but I think those still have uses beyond those taken over by GADTs.
 
I just spent some timen looking through my old college stuff...
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Don't have non-template functions! Let them be templates in disguise!
 
6:45 PM
@DeadMG Overloading? At the grammar level?
 
no, I mean
because the grammar doesn't differentiate between a function call and a template instantiation
 
Xeo
Wait, I thought you didn't actually have templates?
 
So it's context-sensitive?
OMG you fail so much.
 
What do you call that post process effect games uses to make it look like the camera has water on it? (when its raining) Screen splash?
 
@Xeo I don't, but I do have something with a similar grammatical need, and I also need to invoke C++ templates.
 
6:47 PM
I'm looking for some HLSL exmaples
 
@Borgleader meh.
 
@Borgleader PPEGUTMILLTCHWOI?
:P
 
lol
 
@EtiennedeMartel source?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, it's plain ambiguous- the analyzer doesn't have enough information to determine what the user meant to do.
 
6:49 PM
You mean you cannot decide it even with context?
 
no, you can decide the grammar context-free.
the trouble is that it doesn't actually carry enough information for analysis.
 
@FredOverflow A certain Audrey Tang.
 
Isn't it available?
 
any Qt user around here?
 
6:51 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because I didn't create a separate grammar for saying "These are template arguments" and "These are regular arguments".
 
~/.vim/tags/cpp_src what kind of a dir is that? I don't know the ~ in a dir structure? Also there's no .vim/ folder?
 
~ is the home directory of the current user.
 
~ is home.
 
See, even the puppy knows that!
 
~ is ho-- yeah, didn't think I would be fast enough for that one.
 
6:52 PM
E.T. phone ~
 
so I have to make these folders
 
Nope
 
@DeadMG Well, I guess you will have to, somehow.
 
It's INVISIBLE.
.folders are hidden
 
@TonyTheLion $ mkdir -p ~/.vim/tags/cpp_src
 
6:53 PM
<dramatic music/>
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah... but I previously did not even consider it, so I'm kinda up shit creek with no canoe when it comes to creating one that doesn't suck.
 
Better start Wide from scratch.
 
Fuck, my head hurts.
 
sorry.
 
6:54 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes in cmd window it says the syntax is incorrect
 
Stupid weather has been switching between lovely sun, damn cold with snow, and lovely sun damn cold with snow.
 
Lads
 
@TonyTheLion Oh. Windows?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Define "damn cold".
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes ikr
@EtiennedeMartel 10°C for the robot
 
6:55 PM
Woa.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Nope, won't trigger your bragging mechanism.
 
@TonyTheLion ~ and .stuff is a Linux thing.
 
@Xeo Yeah, no. I'm from the Atlantic coast. We get ~0º winters.
 
Silly robot, that weather means time to snowboard.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sounds easy enough to handle.
 
Xeo
6:56 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Man, you got fucking hot winters.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes
 
I can hold on at 0°C with nothing more than a shirt. As long as there's no wind, though. Wind sucks.
 
@EtiennedeMartel There's always wind here.
 
Wind turns me from a tough badass to a crying bitch.
 
Why was it suddenly cold this morning... we had nice temperature all week
 
6:57 PM
0°C doesn't require a shirt, silly canadians.
 
@Borgleader I know, right? I got in at work with another case of frozen beard.
@SamDeHaan I'm too shy to be shirtless in public.
 
@EtiennedeMartel And the trouble is not whether or not I can handle it. It's the fucking yo-yoing.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ah, well, that's fair.
 
Feb 8 at 17:06, by Etienne de Martel
@R.MartinhoFernandes A friend of mine once said "Y'a juste les caves qui ont frette."
 

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