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15:00
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You've not shown what that value is, while I've referenced you to why meta tags in general are not a good fit for the site.
It's kind of strange to me that the idea of its deletion keeps coming up from outside the C++ community. Perhaps it's something that isn't found in other language groups on SO?
@thecoshman You didn't follow instructions shame on you
@casperOne I think we've told you quite a few times already what the value is.
We don't need to classify incoming questions, as in most meta tags. is actually classifying the quality of the answer. Sometimes the question has also been beautified. But it's applied to a closed set of pages and carefully maintained by us.
Well delete the tag and I promise you're gonna see an amazing number of duplicate questions not get closed as duplicate
15:01
So far, I see one good reason, and one very bad reason for the c++-faq tag: 1) searchability (this is the good one). I can't deny it doesn't help you find stuff easily. 2) Authoritative resource. That's just not a good reason for the tag's existence for the non constructive reasons I've specified before.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's because we have delete in our language :)
@casperOne In order to delete something you have to demonstrate why it has zero value. Rather than having to demonstrate why something has value otherwise delete it. SO is very deletion happy nowadays, which is sad. IMO.
> Authoritative resource. That's just not a good reason for the tag's existence for the non constructive reasons I've specified before.
*sigh*
@casperOne I think it is a good reason for the tag's existence. I can see how it could appear otherwise, but I really strongly disagree because C++ is a special case, for the reasons outlined before
If your choice is already made why are we even bothering
15:02
If you want to delete tags, start with the crap like please, and not the tags that we find very useful
@casperOne reason 2 is one of the main reasons we need it. Because noobs ask the same damn questions over and over, and we need some place to refer to that's reliable
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That brings up a separate topic of "special cases". But this is not the time for that.
we could just link them to some resource outside of SO, but hey, than that's SO's loss
@casperOne It's exactly the time for that, if you're asking whether the tag should stay or go. Or, rather, asking us how upset we'll be when you delete it
lol
15:02
Is someone disagreeing with the C++ best practices consensus according to this room? If no, then piss off. If that conflict is happening for other languages, don't try to make that our problem.
@TonyTheLion If you, as a group want to consider it the authoritative resource, then I have no problem with that. Telling that to the world, that's different.
@casperOne It's not US AS A GROUP
This default position of "delete" is upsetting; it would be non-upsetting if the valueless stuff were deleted, but it's the valueable stuff we're talking about. If you can't see the value in it then okay, but we're all sat here telling you that for the C++ community the tag holds value
It's answers that have proper references to the standard
And have been thoroughly reviewed
No matter who answers
@casperOne What do want us to do? Link to the C++ standard, that no new person could possibly understand, or just re answer every dupe that comes along.
15:03
@Cicada python scons/scons.py vendor ; python scons/scons.py
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm trying to have a conversation about the impact of you not having the tag, as well as how the value this tag provides to you could be provided otherwise. If you don't want to be a part of that discussion, then that's fine.
@casperOne It's not really. The level of peer review and the level of expert opinion (and, yes, someone gets to call themselves authoritative expert, sorry) is sufficient to ensure the quality of the tag content
@Cicada Who is it then?
@casperOne people
@casperOne Why do you think I don't want to be a part of that discussion? What are we doing right now?
15:04
no one in particular
many members of this room but not only
@Cicada That's rather broad, vague, and I can't measure that, you know?
Sigh. Just delete everything then.
@casperOne Because I have no preasure measurement to give you? Run some script on data and you'll see
15:05
I think SO needs to get rid of it's delete rage. Seriously, this had pissed people off more times than I can count
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You're being a part of the discussion, but you're kind of shifting it off topic into a general deletionist rant. I'm presenting a very specific question. I'm not deleting everything, but I'm asking you how it would be impacted, and if that impact can be mitigated in other ways.
Delete the crap. Then we'll talk!
Also, you really don't seem to be looking for a discussion here. I'm seeing someone who has this point already clearly made.
@casperOne The leaders of the standardization committee write books and papers and give lectures. We take that material and relate it to question askers, with citations to the standard.
if deleting stuff is so important to you, then why build a site where nothing can be deleted unless by an admin?
in fact, why build a site at all
15:05
@casperOne Okay. Well, I think it could be mitigated if there were equivalent functionality to the tag. As it stands, we do not have any. I would be happy to classify those questions in a different manner than with this meta-tag.
4
^ this
Arguably tag wikis could do the job, but (and we've been over this before), at the moment they do not
@Cicada You have to realize, I'm one person trying to solicit feedback from an entire room of very passionate users of the site. I'm not made up, and I said this was a precursor to a meta post. The point being, I'm trying to keep up. =)
@thecoshman "You didn't follow instructions"
Maybe I wasn't clear… but if you can't find a single example of disagreement in C++ best practices, you shouldn't be bringing this authority argument to us. The bickering simply isn't happening in C++ questions.
15:06
@LightnessRacesinOrbit also how do you search for things in tag wiki?
@Cicada read the wiki then :P fairly sure scons tells you what you should do
@casperOne I don't think we're exactly holding pitchforks to your neck ;)
@casperOne I'm personally not really a big fan of the faq for other reasons, but what "other ways" do you envision could provide the same value? That faq was created out of a concrete need, by SO users because SO had no appropriate mechanism to fulfill that need
@TonyTheLion exactly. tag wikis are just not appropriate for this content. maybe one day they could be, I don't know
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I agree, tag wikis would not help you in the search ability case.
15:07
@casperOne You also can't close as dup of a tag wiki
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, but you guys are... Passionate and many.
@casperOne And you have to realize the idea you are proposing is terrible and if I weren't eating yoghurt I would probably have yelled at you at some point
@casperOne Don't mistake fast typing for passion ;)
@Cicada the fact he is not physically there doesn't stop you either? you must be really loud
@jalf I don't know, which is why I came here first, because I know that I could delete all the other FAQ tags and no one would care. But you guys care, so I wanted to have the discussion with you, see what the impact is, see if there are alternatives, and weigh all the options. In other words, instead of just doing it, I wanted to see what the impact of doing it to the people it would impact most would be, and see what options there are.
15:09
C++ has a problem of being taught badly and inaccurately worldwide, and it needs a place where authoritative, correct, well-referenced and peer-reviewed information goes, and sorry yes we've decided that the c++-faq tag fits. No, we weren't elected by the world. But I don't care - the tag has good, correct, information, and value in its categorisation by the meta-tag.
2
Also if we are that passionate and many and if you know your idea is going to be rejected, why even bother asking and not just delete everything altogether, starting with System31?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Replace "C++" with most anything. All due respect, that's a universal problem.
Taking it away just seems like a strange thing to do unless there's a concrete reason to do that. Deletion should be a last resort, not a default position. Again IMO
@casperOne yeah well more or less
C++ is old
@casperOne What I'm saying is that I believe C++ to be particularly susceptible.
15:09
Also, I'm curious what purpose you feel it would serve to remove the tag. How does it make SO a better, more useful place? Are these FAQs actively harmful?
@casperOne No, it's not. Have you tried to write a C++ program lately?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Take a look at the android tag when you get a chance, you guys have it good on the site.
@jalf The other ones are. It's a moderation issue, to some degree, batting down look alikes, and having to defend the "but they did it" position.
Frankly, moderators shouldn't have to defend your tag for you. We shouldn't have to say "oh, they get special dispensation because" etc, etc. That's kind of not our job.
@thecoshman Do I need to set a pubkey somewhere
15:11
Same thing goes for the book list. Or any other historically locked question (C++ or otherwise)
@casperOne but out of curiosity, what is the problem with those other FAQs? (I haven't looked at them at all)
@casperOne I don't think it's equivalent. Yes, is full of shit. Yes, the android community is saturated by script kiddies with poor language skills and no formal education. But Android also has centralised documentation/resources and C++ does not. That has to come from communities. And Android isn't taught poorly in schools as a matter of course.
@jalf They're garbage, frankly. Just like the book list questions.
lol
@casperOne According to..?
15:12
Authorities.
@casperOne Android suffers from too many features and too many different implementations… neither can really be counted. C++ suffers from many pitfalls, but not uncountably so, and they have certain known solutions, to be presented as precise formulas.
ITT: People arguing against a wall
30 secs ago, by Cicada
Authorities.
I need some help on a fairly broad question which I'm not sure is precise enough for stack overflow, is there a more suitable place where people can provide advice - there may not be an explicit single answer
@casperOne I do think it's unfortunate that the only system we can use for this is tags. I do think that a bad example can be set by these sort of special-case non constructive data-dump non-question posts. But until a better system comes along, the simple fact is that it provides value where otherwise that value would not exist.
15:12
It is related to advice on how to reverse engineer some code we have
@casperOne I kind of disagree with that. SOs moderators have taken it upon themselves to delete shit. We didn't ask them to. But if they do that, then it is up to them to act responsibly, and defend the things that should not be deleted
@casperOne Except I was being utterly sarcastic but ohwell
@James Start drawing flow-charts
@James I think you came in at the wrong time.
@James Sounds like you're looking to hire a consultant.
15:13
It is certainly not my responsibility to constantly, day in and day out, vigilantly watch out for idiots who feel that something I once wrote to help out others ought to be deleted
@James Ask. I'll answer if I can
@James Also a lawyer.
@James: If it is programming-related, give it a go on SO. But if you ask about reverse-engineering external code you do not own, it may not be well received.
@jalf Actually, I disagree. We have an explicit reject message for flags saying that we shouldn't moderate the technical veracity of things. I'd say that defending the existence of a tag or not falls under that. By defending the tag, I'm judging the technical veracity of the content in that tag.
@Cicada His sarcasm detector malfunctioned for a second.
15:14
@casperOne Surely that applies to wider technical value also?
@casperOne I know you disagree. I know that SO would look very different if you were in charge.
@ereOn Haha, we do own it! Just has had a developer leave who was the sole developer on a project?!
There's a snowstorm outside.
@Griwes I should probably have put it this way: ~Authorities~
15:14
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oops indeed :-s
@Cicada :D
but I have spent what, 4-5 years on this site, and I have posted thousands of answers, and I cannot and will not waste my time "defending" all of that against overzealous deleters
@James Yeah, you need a hire a consultant for a few days, with the option of keeping them on to perform the work for a few weeks.
@EtiennedeMartel Not only outside :)
@James You're not going to cheap your way out of this
15:15
My content (or anyone's content) should not "need defending".
10
@jalf I agree, upvotes, downvotes, etc, should all do that.
If you (moderators, meta, the SE team, whoever) have decided that "we need to delete anything that is not actively defended", then it is up to you to defend the stuff that deserves to be defended
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeah, we figured cheap and reverse engineering probably didn't go well togther! Any recommendations for consultants?
@James Well I just offered answering your question if it's not too long
@James: What does this program hold that you can't rewrite and require expensive reverse-engineering ?
15:16
But if I go and say, remove the "r-faq" tag, then a meta post comes up about why I did that, and they say "but there's the c++-faq" tag, then I have to defend the content in that tag. That's not something I should be doing, I can't possibly do that.
@James I dunno .. open the phone book. I don't know where you are, or who else is in your city.
You have created a sick culture on SO, and you cannot push the responsibilities onto us for guarding against the consequences of that
@Cicada Thanks, the app isn't actually a C++ one here, I just thought because there were more people here you might be able to answer the most appropriate place for asking the quesiton.
but I'm getting sidetracked because I actually had something to say on the topic of deleting/replacing the FAQ
It is developed in Scala
15:16
@jalf That's not the statement that was made.
@TonyTheLion Yeah, what the hell is going on?
> Scala
:cripes:
@casperOne I understand that problem. However, it is not for you or I or anyone else to take that out on our existing value
@James You have the source, and presumably someone who can read Scala?
Let's be clear, no one has done anything yet.
15:17
Well at least you can decompile scala
@casperOne And neither can we, because we do not waste all our time on meta, and we only realize that our content "needs defending" when it is too late. The people who feel that deleting is important must be responsible enough to determine what needs deleting
@EtiennedeMartel @casperOne is asking what the damage would be if the were deleted
@Collin Yes to the first, no to the second.
@James: If you mind me asking, why come on the C++ channel to ask about a Scala reverse-engineering question ?!
@casperOne Poor defenseless useful posts and useful meta-taggery, nuked to oblivion because somebody else tries and fails to use it in some argument by comparison for a different tag entirely?
15:17
Let's cut it with the "you've destroyed the site, you're deletionists, etc." rhetoric.
@casperOne Yes but it really looks like you don't want to listen
Please don't shout. :( It's not nice.
Or shout in silence.
@casperOne It's not rhetoric, and I'd really appreciate if you at least pretended to listen to our feedback when you ask for our feedback
@casperOne Yeah that was a bit much
15:18
@ereOn I wasn't planning on asking the actual question - I just knew that SO didn't take kindly to broad, speculative questions being asked as actual SO questions - but I remembered there is somewhere more appropriate but couldn't remember the name
@jalf this
@Cicada Oï.
I think it's an important point: the people who want to delete must be responsible
@casperOne Let's cut it with the "but someone else will whine at me" rhetoric.
If they are not, then SO has lost, and there is nothing the people who don't want to delete can do about it
15:18
responsible: be willing to take any and all consequences for your actions
@jalf Let's not be so hostile, okay? He's come here in good faith to find out what our opinion is on the tag. That's it.
2
Your job as a moderator is to listen to silly whining. Deleting material won't end that.
Anyway, regarding teh FAQ
@James I guess you do the cost-benefit of rewriting vs. having someone learn scala, vs hiring someone who already knows it
@Cicada I don't think so... I assume you have set up Hg
15:19
Don't like it, quit the job.
@jalf What's the more responsible thing, going and deleting it without asking the community what the impact would be, or going to that community who would be most impacted and asking "what would be the impact if we were to do this", and not doing it?
@casperOne It would be terrible we said it 092830283 times
@James: As I said. Read the faq. If you think your question is programming related, you will get more answer by asking on SO the regular way. Now if your question is "Where to find a consultant ?" it is likely not a programming-related question.
@casperOne I for one am very glad to see you in here asking the questions. You already know how I feel about all those single-handed comment thread deletions, so this is a welcome departure from that sort of approach. So, thank you for that.
@casperOne The responsible thing would be to look at the value of the content and determine if it has positive or negative value, without relying on the right people happening to be online at just the right time to defend it.
if one FAQ has positive value and another FAQ has negative value, then you should be able to justify deleting the one which is of negative value
15:20
@James Yeah I'm not sure that there is, really. Perhaps some discussion forum.
Let's put some balanced constructivism in this discussion by pinging the @Cat and the @DeadMG
even if, say, @sbi or another defender-of-the-C++-faq is not online to defend it
@James Or, asking here. As you did. :)
@Cicada :)
ANYWAY, personally, I dislike the "canonical answer" aspect of the FAQ. I feel like it is more constructive (and more friendly and welcoming) to write an answer to your specific question than to say "please read this answer someone else wrote 8 months ago". The latter is just not going to give newcomers a good impression of the site, and it's back to front, giving canned answers which nearly, but not exactly, fit the question
15:21
@jalf This is not an action that's being done. It wasn't going to be done after I leave the room or anything like that.
@Cicada smooth
Seems to me that if you honestly care about the good of SO instead of blindly following a vague and (mostly) poorly justified rule, the discussion should really be in the opposite direction: which of the "meta-tags" that have already been removed should be restored. I nominate as the first of those.
@jalf Yeah if I'm honest I don't think the posts in the tag have as much value as they could or should. Though I do still think it's a net positive given that it costs everybody nothing except having to have this discussion every few months
@casperOne I'm talking about the general principle, not the precise timing of if and when you would do it. :)
So far, I have the following reasons for it's existence:
1) It aids in searchability for closing of duples
2) From the perspective of the SO C++ community, it provides an authoritative resource where there really isn't any
Reasons against:
1) It dissuades people/leaves a bad first impression to people who come to the site initially and ask a question which you feel is asked authoritatively.
15:22
@JerryCoffin I concur
@JerryCoffin was silly though.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit why, it puts a different context on questions.
> 1) It dissuades people/leaves a bad first impression to people who come to the site initially and ask a question which you feel is asked authoritatively.
Sorry could you clarify that for me; not sure I follow
So, what I have always wanted to see is some kind of wiki/repository that would make it easier for me to write a new answer which builds on the existing knowledge base of the community. If I need to refer to the rule-of-three in an answer, then I would like to have some easy way to, in my answer, say "oh by the way, we have an excellent description of this rule over here", or maybe even have it inlined into my answer.
@jalf Have you noticed the new close as duplicate changes that have been implemented? Did that help at all with your issue with the canonical answers?
15:23
@JerryCoffin homework was the poster child bad meta tag… it was subjective and encouraged roundabout, lower-quality answers.
@thecoshman Exactly. was a call-to-action to not answer, or to give the sort of non-handholding answer that we should be giving anyway. The real problem is that people keep answering low-hanging fruit with complete code done for the OP and this shouldn't happen regardless of whether the OP was doing homework
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Someone who hasn't been on SO at all comes to the site, asks a question, any close reason that they get is pretty harsh. Close banners in general leave a bad first impression.
Of course, that might run afoul of all the no-duplicates rules, and the idea would certainly require a lot of polishing and fleshing out
@casperOne um, I'm not sure what you mean.
@casperOne No. If anything I find it much harder now actually to find proper dupe targets. But this has been covered in my meta post on the subject
@casperOne What do you mean "any close reason that they get is pretty harsh"?
@JerryCoffin You're asking me, I assume? The homework tag is in the process of being removed. It's officially not allowed anymore (although we can't blacklist it until we remove it from all the questions, but we have to review all of them for closure).
15:25
I don't give all my free time to be "nice to newcomers" or to "make newcomers feel homely and welcome". If they post a question that's been answered, it's a dup. If they post a poor question, it gets closed. I see no reason to optimise for their personal feelings, at the cost of losing raw value.
22
Q: Changes to "close as duplicate" (part deux)

David FullertonI feel like we got off on the wrong foot. Due to me being an idiot miscommunication, a partial change snuck out early, and even though we announced it we didn't really explain why we made the change. So let me just start over... We've made some changes to Close as Duplicate. First, some back...

@casperOne Ooh I haven't spotted part 2!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What I meant was, when a question gets closed, for someone not used to Stack Exchange, it can be a pretty harsh experience. It has a GTFO feeling to it.
@casperOne And, bluntly, I don't see why that's a problem.
@casperOne The point is it shouldn't have been prohibited, and shoudn't be removed. The question is whether you care about the quality of the site, or about blindly following a rule, even when it hurts the site?
15:26
Life is tough.
> part deux
why this attempt to look classy
they just want to be more like you
ahem
@casperOne If the only reason they're asking is that they can't search properly, then maybe they should GTFO.
"My" problem with canonical answers is that they're rarely a perfect fit for the question. So ideally, the OP might want an answer which conceptually consists of a small custom-written prologue, describing how the question matches some "canonical" prewritten answer, or why it is relevant, followed by a reference to that answer
@JerryCoffin Well, the specific problem with homework is the quality of the questions. Almost all homework questions are crap. Like, 99.999% crap.
They are cut and paste from their assignments, stuff like that.
15:27
You get people asking "how do I retrieve a web page from a server", and then they're pointed to an answer about the precise format of a HTTP GET request. Useful, but to a newbie, it might not be clear that "a HTTP GET request is what you need", so the relevance of the so-called duplicate might not be clear
I understand the desire to trim the fat off SO and stop it from being full of misplaced, ill-fitting nonsense. I'd just like to see better mechanisms (and if nothing else, just a bloody line in /faq!) to explain to people that they shouldn't post all the localised stuff. Then we can talk about cutting off the snake's head, which is far less important.
@jalf Now that I can agree with completely -- when somebody asks a two-line question that has a three line answer, directing them to a book-length answer isn't really helpful to them or anybody else.
and sorry, now I'll read that link :)
@casperOne Removing the tag doesn't change that in any way whatsoever
@JerryCoffin I agree with this. I will downvote such answers.
@casperOne Removing the tag hasn't reduced the amount or percentage of crap though.
15:28
@LightnessRacesinOrbit but deletion!
@casperOne That's a problem with the users, not the tag. Eliminating the tag hasn't changed that… there still isn't a process for closing questions for being copy-pasted from assignments, since (correct me if I'm wrong) our policy is to answer such questions.
However I will also point them towards a good book, and the canonical answers provide a way to do this quickly, cheaply and effectively.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit To some degree, it does, as the auto complete will say "10000 homework questions!" and the person thinks "wow, they really like them here"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The nlooking classy isn't a good tactic.
@casperOne Well, I'll give you that.
15:29
Hence, ideally I'd be able to answer (in the fictive example above) "You need to send a HTTP Get request. The following answer describes what these should look like", to reuse the existing "duplicate" answer, while also explaining its relevance in a custom-tailored answer to just this specific question
@Potatoswatter Define "our". If you flag because it's a copy paste assignment, we generally will close that as NARQ.
Why are we talking about the homework tag anyway, this was about
hey, this is fun
@Cicada I think there's an overlap in the wider argument. Though we shouldn't necessarily even be having the wider argument, because it's kind of pointless. I think I agree - we should stick to talking about this tag specifically.
has anyone mentionned hitler yet
4
@Potatoswatter Generally, flag it as Not A Real Question and we'll see that it should be closed. However, if it has the homework flag, then edit the tag out and flag for closure, if we remove the tag and don't close, then it's crap hiding in the nether regions.
15:30
@casperOne Doesn't fit the requirements of NARQ, if the copy-pasted text specifies an answerable question.
@Cicada No, because I haven't deleted anything yet? =)
@casperOne well technically I just did
@Cicada No shit.
@Cicada criss-cross
@Potatoswatter I don't disagree, if you're going by the letter of the law. However, we don't always use the letter of the law for close reasons.
15:31
@Cicada ....only you...can make the lightness dark.
@EtiennedeMartel Eh ben si je t'assure !
If that is your intent, then the criteria for NARQ should be adjusted, or there should be another option (considering that such questions are typically "real", and just formatted poorly).
@JerryCoffin I'm not a lightbug :)
@Potatoswatter Sometimes too localized fits as well.
@casperOne Hate to tell you, but the "letter of the law" is all we can know about, given that it's printed on the interactive page. I have NO IDEA what goes on at Meta.
15:32
@Cicada J'en suis flabbergasté.
@EtiennedeMartel A tes souhaits
@Potatoswatter I'll tell you: nothing really constructive
@Potatoswatter That's a conscious choice on your part though. Consider most legal systems, ignorance of the law doesn't grant exemption from it.
@casperOne thanks, finally got to read it. It sounds like a big improvement, and it solves one big part of the problem. But the one I described above is still there. The "duplicates" that are found may not be duplicates in the eye of the person asking, because he doesn't have the necessary background knowledge to connect them. So some ability to bridge that gap would be useful. Maybe just making it possible to append an explanatory message to the closed-as-dupe message
Also, regarding the homework tag, the discussion about the problems the homework tag causes:
@Cicada I was paraphrasing a sappy old love song.
15:33
103
Q: Can we now discourage the use of and burninate the homework tag?

user142852I present to you the following indisputable (depending on your frame of reference) facts: homework is a meta-tag. It describes the status from which the question is being asked, not the content of the question. homework might be factually incorrect - for example, it is possible to ask a basic q...

@casperOne I'm pretty sure SO was never intended to share the flaws of existing legal systems. ;)
And the cleanup of the tag:
241
Q: The homework tag is now officially deprecated

Tim PostThe result of a rather lengthy discussion concludes with the homework tag needing to go away on Stack Overflow. As far as tag burninations go, this is quite large, with over 20,000 questions to examine. When the tag is removed, it will be blacklisted - banished to the outer realms and never spoke...

@jalf No, which is why we don't have a legal.SE =)
@JerryCoffin Ah! Well none of my parents was even born by then!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the latter I very much agree with
@casperOne In systems that can be deemed "legal", knowledge of the laws and official decisions of record is sufficient, not participation in backroom discussions.
15:34
@Cicada how many do you have o_0
The real problem is that the world is full of shit and as much as we try to change that, it will never go away. We will never be able to optimise for the feelings of newcomers, and at the same time optimise for the high-rep regulars to spend all their time writing answers for free. we will never find a way to make everything fit into a nice box, or to produce a tidy archive of Q&As. It's just intractible. There are too many questions, too many users, too many damn people in the world.
So we might as well just suck it up and play along.
@thecoshman uh, did I say something wrong?
@thecoshman hahah ..
Meta is a place for discussion, the close question dialog box is the place for the laws.
@jalf There's a lot of talk around the duplicates issue. I'll try to bring up your points in the appropriate places.
@Potatoswatter Meta is by no means backroom.
15:35
@Cicada the way you phrased it made it sound like there could be a fair few of them
@thecoshman what would the correct phrasing be
> The real problem is that the world is full of shit and as much as we try to change that, it will never go away.
@Cicada Change "none" to "neither"
lots of stars coming out of this convo
15:35
I'm glad some people have such a positive view of things :P
@casperOne Is it in the front, with StackOverflow.com being the one in the back?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit clearly not enough on my posts if you ask me
@TonyTheLion Old age ;)
@Cicada I didn't. Does that mean there are enough now?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol
@Potatoswatter Backroom implies limited access. Meta isn't limited access. =)
15:36
@casperOne Yes, I remember that. Based on the result, it was a bad decision and even its current (partial) implementation has been harmful to the site.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit clearly not enough on my posts
@Potatoswatter But one man will see the ass on the front, and another on the back =P
@JerryCoffin How so? (asking to elicit feedback, not contest)
Anyway, I think the problem with the FAQ (or with deleting it) is that it's a symptom. It exists because SO lacks the necessary capabilities to share and reuse content. The only thing we can do is marking the best ones so we're easily able to find them again. Deleting the FAQ won't make that problem go away, it'll just remove the band-aid people had put on it to make it less painful to work around
15:37
Hello!
I have a question about a sort of meta-issue that involves C++
And SO
So if you want to remove the FAQ, it would have to be by first adding replacement features
4
@speeder haha, meta-issue. :giggles:
I asked on SO a question about why the specs say something specific. The question got upvoted AND closed.
and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't really like the FAQ and never refers anyone to it. :)
@speeder link please
15:38
Want me to field this one? heh
I asked on meta why lots of similar questions are not closed, while others are. Seemly it is because all of them should not exist, but C++ people defend those questions...
@jalf Basically sums it up for me, but only because we will always unavoidably need a place to stash this authoritative reference material, even when in an ideal world that would not be true
2
Q: Why C++ specs say that int and short are both at least 16 bits?

speederI am reading The C++ Programming Language Special Edition. It states that C++ types derive from char, that has to be at least 8 bits (anyone know a computer with char bigger than 8 bits, by the way?) Also, it states that both short, and int, must have at least 16 bits. Why not, 8 for short and...

Honestly I think removing that tag will cause a lot of high rep regulars to consider stop answering question at all, because now it becomes so much harder to find a good dupe to close dupe questions by.
@casperOne thanks
15:38
Whoa, casperOne is fast
> nyone know a computer with char bigger than 8 bits, by the way?
Yup
@jalf I don't disagree with you here. By that statement, can I take it to mean that you don't feel the current feature set would replace what you're gaining from the tag?
user1182183
hm who knows a bit DirectX here? ; o
I am wondering, what to do with that tag.
I mean, it is against what SO currently stands for. But I like that tag.
Hey, is an excellent example. Such questions are usually not related to some localised "practical problem that you face", which is really a problem more with that wording. Because these questions are the créme - the abstract, but specific and concrete questions about the languages that we use. I see a lot of silly downvotes in that tag, and if anyone threatens to remove that then I'll get passionate!
15:39
@speeder r u srs
I would find lots of use in that tag, but yet this would also attract lots of flak from common SO people.
@casperOne First and foremost, the reaction now seems to be primarily to close (and often delete) instead of trying to fix them and provide an appropriate answer. Second, now instead of a tag that make the status clear, I constantly (at least a couple times a day) see "and no, this really isn't homework, so you really can answer" kinds of noise in questions.
@casperOne See this is one of SO's problems, they want to delete around ever corner, but never consider adding features that would make up for problems being worked out by other means.
@casperOne the homework tag served a purpose in that it helped everyone know how to answer. In particular, "don't post complete solutions and ready-to-use code, but instead emphasize explanations and help the OP learn/understand". Now, homework questions usually just get ready-to-use solutions which don't really teach anything (and now there's added noise of verbally trying to establish if a question is homework or not, as Jerry mentioned)
suggestions for features keep getting declined
15:40
Yeah but that's a broader problem
Focus on please
@JerryCoffin So, regarding close reasons, questions can be reopened after they've been fixed. This is something a lot of people, especially newcomers, don't understand, or forget.
@speeder The problem is not that it's a language-lawyer question; it's that it's a "why didn't they do it like this" question
@casperOne Closed questions tend to die out
@casperOne I see nothing in the current feature set that even partially offsets the need for the FAQ, no. There is no facility for collecting information that the community agrees is (1) correct, and (2) frequently needed and referenced.
@JerryCoffin I haven't seen that in C++ questions much tbh.
15:41
@TonyTheLion The disconnect here is that I can only delete, close. I can't code for the core engine of the site. I can only make feature requests to devs on meta, like you. Occasionally, I get to drink beer or eat with them, and there's a real chance there to effect change, but the list is so long.
Lightness Races there are other questions in the same style (like: why you can put a final comma inside a {} initialization?) and they are not closed.
I'm telling you all. The problem is that there are too many people in the world. We can never solve this problem to the satisfaction of all groups. Ever. Let's just get drunk
But according to some SO people, they should be, actually most language-laywer questions should be.
26
Q: Is [language-lawyer] really an effective characterization, or a borderline meta-tag?

Robert Harveylanguage-lawyer For questions about the intricacies of formal or authoritative specifications of programming languages and environments. Typical questions concern gaps between "what will usually work in practice" and "what the spec actually guarantees", but problems with understanding...

It's subjective
Like everything human
@speeder That is a completely different sort of question, though. It's concrete. It's asking a question about stuff in a language, not stuff about why a language
15:42
@casperOne Yes, they can be, but the reality is that it's inordinately difficult in practice.
@casperOne I wasn't trying to attack you or anything, I was merely stating a problem I've noticed, and which has been talked about on several occasions. I realize you're not empowered necessarily to effect change more immediately than me or anyone else in this room.
@jalf That was another problem, it made the answers vague. If a professional with the same issue came along, they wouldn't get a definitive answer, just vagueness.
laalalalalala we're just slipping on different and different topics
Now I wonder if I should ask more questions about C++ itself, or not.
15:44
@JerryCoffin I don't disagree, FWIW, I, as a moderator wish that more people took part in this cycle. I think a softening of the close reasons would help and give people reason to invest in trying to salvage their question.
Because it is clear that unless I have a pratical issue to solve, people will be against it
@casperOne but surely another version of the question would exist without the homework tag (or he would create it, and then it would exist for the next guy who came looking), and that would have a non-vague answer
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Not specifically in C++, no.
Bon ça me saoûle un peu ce dialogue de sourds quand même
@everyone : Just wanted to say thanks for everything. I finally finished it all.
15:44
@TonyTheLion I didn't take it as such, but thank you, that's considerate =) Just trying to point out, I wish I could make core changes to the system. As much as you might not believe it, I do wish that I could make technical changes to the system to address some of these things, and we could optimize the aspects of the site that are meant for very specific things.
@GamesBrainiac Great!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit : Thank you so much. Also potato
I can't explain how good it feels like when your program runs and does what you want it to do
I'm sure you've this feeling thousands of times
-2
Q: Could a significant reputation requirement for asking questions be ethical and/or practical here?

Lightness Races in OrbitI imagine that this will be highly controversial but, well, we're here to ask and discuss, right?! In the tags that I frequent, namely c++/php/javascript on SO, it feels to me like we have reached a kind of saturation point, in that the vast majority of new questions daily are either duplicates ...

@jalf Possibly, but then what happens, how do you handle the dupe? How does the guy find the dupe? If it's not closed as a dupe, you've failed the professional. If you've closed it as a dupe, you've done the homework for the kid.
Anyone ever tried proposing a C and C++ site on Area51?
15:45
^ that is your answer, @casperOne!
@casperOne I don't think the problem is the close reasons in particular, rather that closed questions drop off everyone's radar. Who's going to vote to reopen a question they don't see? SO aggressively hides questions with no activity (and closed questions tend to have no activity for good reason) :)
Stop the flood.
@speeder too late, really. we'd just be migrating questions all bloody day long
@BartekBanachewicz : Thanks for cppreference. This site actually works! :D
@speeder That probably wouldn't fly. I'd expect someone from SE to close it. You can always try though. Normally, Mathematica and other sites like that succeed because there's an application aspect to them.
Why someone from SE would close it?
15:47
@casperOne To get very far, you need to motivate others than the OP to do the editing.
@jalf We have queues for reopening. If an edit is done on a post that is closed, then it goes into the reopen queue for people to vote to reopen it. And I believe you can filter on tag as well, I'm not sure on the latter part.
@jalf Again, the problem here (much like Twitter), is that there are far too many questions. Everything just gets hidden by everything else. There's no solution to that except mass-deleting everything that's (a) low-voted, (b) closed and (c) subjectively full of utter shite despite ridiculous pity upvotes by rep-whores
@casperOne the professional would be more than capable of coping with two answers existing for his question. And the kid with the homework would be no worse off than he is with the removal of the tag. But again, if that is a concern, then perhaps a more robust replacement feature is needed. :)
And then remove question-asking powers from anyone with less than 500 rep
@casperOne and who sees that queue? :)
15:47
I seem to be getting more and more radical as this discussion continues
Only the few people who actively looks for it. Who goes "hmm, I wonder if there are any closed questions whose closure I disagree with"
@jalf I think it's something like 3K rep needed.
jalf's right - there's zero incentive to bother seeking out that queue
who the hell wants to choose to look at questions that lots of other people decided was rubbish
also, who edits closed questions?
@casperOne To be able to see it, sure. To actively see it, you need to hunt it down and remember to check it regularly
@jalf As far as I can tell, mostly people working on the attached badges, who do a lot of clicking, but pay little or no attention to what they're looking at.
user142019
15:48
Oh the joy of debugging applications that make heavy use of async.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's a clique perspective, IMO. I get it, you guys, for lack of a better term, are very anti-governance on SO. That's fine. There's no requirement that you have to take part in it, but it's there if you want. If you don't though, that's cool too. But sometimes, the tools are there.
@Zoidberg Wait. You think you can talk about actual programming here? Whatever gave you that idea? :-)
my point is that the deck is stacked against reopening. everyone sees open questions, just by going to the main index page. But only a tiny minority, those who intentionally decide "I am going to try to clean up a bit of the site today" see the queue of "things that should perhaps be reopened"
how I create a proposal on area51???
@JerryCoffin We have had problems with that, very bad problems.
15:49
it seemly only lists proposals, no button to create a new one
user142019
@speeder click the create button.
there are no create button
@casperOne I think you misunderstand. That has nothing to do with us or with cliques or with meta being evil
@jalf Sometimes, the tiny minority feels like the subset of the 15 SO mods. Imagine how we feel =P
it's just teh simple fact that the vast majority of users are here to look at questions, and if a question has no activity, it gets taken off the one list that people look at
user142019
15:50
@speeder Select category in the sidebar and scroll down.
@jalf I kind of get it, I think. We don't promote closed questions enough. Problem with putting them on the front page is the high rate at which google goes through that.
user142019
Fuck this shit.
So even if you (hypothetically) changed the close reasons to "hey, this was closed by mistake, please reopen!", it wouldn't change much
user142019
Stupid debugger from hell.
SO suffers from being indexed so fucking much, that they have to take steps to make sure that bad stuff doesn't get indexed.
15:51
@Zoidberg What are you whining about again
because most people don't see the close message
@casperOne lol usrs /cc @Wikipedia
user142019
@Cicada debugger doesn't break where I want it to break because of async. :v
@Zoidberg next project?
user142019
lolyes
15:52
lol
@casperOne yeah, I know. I'm not saying closed questions should be displayed prominently on the front page either. I don't know what the right solution is, I'm just pointing out that as it is, people generally don't see closed questions, so it doesn't matter how people feel about reopening them
user142019
Wait I know.
@casperOne I'm not anti-governance at all. If I understand the meaning correctly
user142019
I'll set a breakpoint instead of breaking manually!
by the way, I'm not actually suggesting you change the close messages like that. Just for the record. :)
15:52
@Zoidberg ehh, you were breaking manually?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I know you're not, but generally, those in this chat room are. Like I said, for lack of a better term, and I'm generalizing.
I'm just pointing out that, if people don't go to the reopen queue, then the practical outcome is that there is a problem with closed questions not getting reopened. Sure, that's only our own fault for not choosing to go to the reopen queue. But ... we still don't!
user142019
@Cicada yes you know pressing the pause button.
@Zoidberg that is retarded
And there's no incentive to so, on the wider scale, you haven't really solved anything by providing that tool
15:53
@jalf Well, we changed the duplicate close. There might be other ones coming down the line, I can't (because I don't know) say.
@casperOne IMO, a lot more "salt" is needed -- IIRC, I've only seen two of the test messages there, and one of those was (IMO) a poor test. I clicked "improve" when it thought I should "reject", even though (at least IMO) the un-edited question was open to pretty obvious improvement.
@casperOne just don't change them to the one I outlined above.... ;)
@Zoidberg You boggle my mind. Regularly.
user142019
Also why is this member null I clearly set it.
I'm plonking you all because you are polluting the room. Please tell me when this oh-so-constructive-discussion is over.
15:54
@JerryCoffin Define "salt", I come from the fighting game community, and salty means really fucking pissed. =)
user142019
Oh I didn't.
@casperOne The test questions -- I.e., the ones for which the "correct" answer is already known, so you're checking that the reviewer is really reviewing, not just clicking.
What we need is for the /faq to be way clearer on what "too localised" means. We need the wider community to be way better at closing debugging questions, immediately. And we need a set of canonical questions/answers that will inherently be dupe-targets for almost every remaining new question. We need a way to find those questions to make dupe-closing efficient and fun to do. But.... then all you've done is created a wiki.
And there are anyway too many questions. Too many people. Impossible. Let's get drunk
6
Isn't there some sort of codepad for crappy code?
@EtiennedeMartel pastebin? oh, I thought you said "some sort of codepad run by crappy code"
15:55
Like a place where people dump the shit they encounter on a daily basis?
@casperOne I'm not sure if that's word I'd use. I'm all for the removal of harmful content and spam. I think the distinction is more that "you" (plural, generalizing) want to delete everything that doesn't have a clear positive value. "We" want to only delete things that have a clear negative value. I'm not sure that's "anti-governance"
2
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, I meant, where the crap is intentional.
@EtiennedeMartel Just open one of your projects
@EtiennedeMartel thedailywtf?
user142019
Daily WTF?
15:56
@Cicada probably along the lines of 'neither my parents were born back then'
@EtiennedeMartel thedailywtf.com? :)
@JerryCoffin Ahh. Yes, we have some conditions around moderator actions to flags that help prime the system. See meta.stackoverflow.com/q/160754/140951 for why we're being so strict on some flags now.
@jalf Yes, but without the explanation and the weird editorial line.
@EtiennedeMartel also, Zoidberg's PC
I mean, just crap code snippets.
15:56
@EtiennedeMartel bash.org
I remember seeing stuff like that.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's for IRC logs.
@jalf Fair enough. And I see the disconnect there between the two sides (negative vs positive)
user142019
@EtiennedeMartel Stack Overflow?
15:56
yes I know. I have no memory of what you speak of
Well, if there's none, there should be.
Incidentally, codesuppository.com is for sale.
which isn't to say we particularly want to keep worthless content around, just that we'd rather err on the conservative side. If in doubt, keep it as long as it does no harm
user142019
Vapourware.
You post snippets and people vote for how crappy it is.
15:58
area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/51543/c-and-c <<< my proposal of where we should go with c++-faq and language-lawyer
:)
@EtiennedeMartel not any more
> A suppository is a drug delivery system that is inserted into the rectum (rectal suppository), vagina (vaginal suppository) or urethra (urethral suppository)
hmm. what have I done?
ugh, it just shouldn't be possible to trigger NVidia GPU driver bugs from a web page...
@Cicada : This was really funny : stackoverflow.com/questions/6926433/…
How do you shuffle? You just shuffle
@EtiennedeMartel The @Cat would cherish that :P
user142019
@LightnessRacesinOrbit urethra ಠ_ಠ

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