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8:00 PM
@Xeo I'm pretty sure this would have been before explicit was recognized by the compiler at all.
 
And redesigning a class just to make it serialisable, bah.
 
I think there are two things to consider in order: what it should look like to extract/read something like int, and what it looks like to build on top of that.
 
You need a set of serialisation primitives to do serialisation.
 
Xeo
Anythng you can do to avoid the two-phase initialization style with stream abstraction at all levels?
 
I'm not sure how something like extract<T> is extensible.
 
Xeo
8:02 PM
At the built-in type level, you could probably read bytes in a pack and reinterpret_cast them, but meh.
 
Ugly.
 
@Xeo At all levels? I doubt it -- ultimately, you have to read some bits from storage into memory, and to do that, you have to allocate storage, then write into it. You should be able to hide it pretty effectively though.
 
I'd rather have set of read_something members for primitives. Ideally it should be read overloaded on return type, but C++.
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin I meant the "default initialize then fill" thing
I know you need to store the read bytes somewhere
@CatPlusPlus But but but, you can overload on return type! :D
 
@Xeo Prove it.
 
8:04 PM
auto breaks that. Sort of. If you need to call members in any case.
 
Xeo
(Note: Interpret ':D' as troll face.)
@LucDanton aye
@CatPlusPlus Custom class + conversion operators
Meh, can't find the puzzle question that asked "how to overload on return type in C++"
 
😀
 
Xeo
@LucDanton UTF600?
 
@Xeo Use Haskell.
 
@Xeo 0x1F600 supposedly.
 
Xeo
8:07 PM
Oh, right
 
Oh hey my font renders ☺. Not very trollish though.
 
Xeo
Still can't see it.
 
@LucDanton Same thing.
 
@Xeo Right. Personally, I often wonder if we're not going about things entirely incorrectly. Instead of dealing with all the ugliness of serializing/deserializing constantly, we should just treat the whole disk as virtual memory. You never save to a file, just give a name to a section of memory, which increments its use count so the system doesn't reuse it. When you need it again, you just re-map that virtual memory and use it without any explicit file access at all.
 
stream.read<T>();
primitive specializations, T::T(stream) for others.
 
8:17 PM
@JerryCoffin memory tends to be fragmented IRL, wheras serialization is always optimal in terms of fragmentation.
 
Xeo
Still need default construction of primitive types or reinterpret_casting to them, AFAICS
 
@JerryCoffin also locks real memory to be smaller than virtual memory. (or mmap)
 
@MooingDuck "always optimal..." Yeah, right.
 
@DeadMG Assume T which constructs a U (all from stream extraction). If extraction of U fails, what does it look like from inside the T constructor?
 
@LucDanton Exception.
 
8:18 PM
@JerryCoffin alright, well, maybe not optimial, but better than any allocator will do automatically.
 
@DeadMG No I mean, syntactically. What if the user wants to construct U from a fallback?
 
@LucDanton That's a different overload of read.
read has three overloads- exception, default value (passed by user), and custom error callback
 
Aye, Boost libraries tend to coopt nothrow_foo as a naming convention. Or is that foo_nothrow?
@DeadMG optional<T>!
 
Xeo
@LucDanton this
 
so if you want a fallback, you can stream.read<U>(U()) or something
 
8:19 PM
@MooingDuck Sure -- but I'm thinking in terms of something like an IPV6 address as the upper bits of the virtual address (if you're going to dream, dream big!)
 
Xeo
stream.read<U>().get_value_or(U());
.get throws if not constructed, right?
 
@Xeo I is confused. wot?
 
@MooingDuck Probably -- but disc space is cheap, and an internal routine to compress "files" that haven't been used in a while isn't exactly rocket science either.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Directed at who?
 
@DeadMG Assume a user wants to extract Foo::bar, but it's not an extractable type. User is not an author of Foo. How to extend functionality to preexisting type?
 
Xeo
8:22 PM
@LucDanton optional<T>().get() // throw or UB?
 
UB. Well, I know that much for operator*. I don't recall a get in the interface tbh.
 
@JerryCoffin I'd rather have reflection handle the serialization, + overloadable.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton assume default constructibility?
 
@LucDanton Would it be possible to specialize stream::read for foo::bar?
I don't remember the rules about specializing member templates
 
Xeo
and template<class T> extractable : T that does extractable(Stream s) : _val(){ s >> _val; }
@DeadMG Nope
 
8:23 PM
@Xeo Assume what you want. I'm not trying to trip people up, I'm investigating ideas (slowly, because I'm in my postprandial state).
@DeadMG Wait are we talking C++ or hypothetical feature of hypothetical language? lol
 
@LucDanton C++.
 
C++-wise you can provide a total specialization but not a partial one. So for Foo::bar<T> you're screwed.
 
oh yeah, I forgot about that
VS permits foo::bar<T> so
 
@DeadMG But we can't add a read member to e.g. std::cin!
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Notes: The requirement is asserted via BOOST_ASSERT(). for both operator* and get :s
 
8:26 PM
@LucDanton Who said anything about adding? I was thinking more about replacing.
 
I'd rather conceive of a new language than conceive of better iostreams. Even if designing a language implies designing I/O facilities lol.
 
wait
you must be able to specialize read, else it would be physically impossible to specialize member templates of a non-template class.
 
Well, you are.
 
@LucDanton Indeed, but that's orthogonal to this discussion
 
> The 54 Parti Québécois members of the National Assembly took a double oath of allegiance Monday — to the Queen, as Canada’s head of state, and to the Quebec people.
I don't really like monarchy.
 
8:30 PM
Well, I don't want to give you any ideas, but you know how it turned out outre-Atlantique.
 
@LucDanton Wha?
@EtiennedeMartel The Queen is nothing more than a constitutional formality.
 
Xeo
So, I can't find a way to have optional<T> throw if the type isn't constructed..
 
@DeadMG For which we also pay.
 
Xeo
Well, whatever. template<class T> T& get_or_throw(optional<T>& o);
 
@EtiennedeMartel An argument I've also made. But, at least in the UK, they supposedly bring in more money through tourism and such than they cost to maintain.
the financial case for removing them seems obvious but isn't
 
8:32 PM
@DeadMG 'Overseas' (in the context, not literally). But I'm spinning the term on its head; I don't know if it's actually used in this fashion.
 
@DeadMG You know when Will and Kate came to visit Canada? We covered their expenses.
 
You'd think most languages would be smart enough to determine that recasting the string "140,652" to an int would be 140652
But nooooooooo
 
@jornak Depends on the culture. In French, the comma is the decimal separator.
 
@LucDanton Yeah, I'm unable to decipher your meaning here.
 
@jornak locale. Way to only handle your culture.
 
8:34 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Owch.
 
Most of you guys probably don't care, but this is hilarious. The latest from Mitt Romney -
http://dailycurrant.com/2012/09/18/hidden-camera-tape-romney-blasts-loser-hispanics/
 
@DeadMG I said, "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!".
 
SET InterestRateNum TO FCST_Interest_Rate_Real
SET UsableMortgageAmount TO FCST_Mortgage_Amount
FORMAT((21/365) * UsableMortgageAmount * InterestRateNum,"9,999.00")
-stabs-
 
@Prætorian I care immensely. Fuck Romney.
 
@LucDanton lol
 
8:35 PM
@jornak You just do ASCII too and forget those pesky É and such?
 
@MooingDuck I don't quite understand why it would be better to solve a problem a little more cleanly, rather than simply eliminate it entirely, but such is life I guess.
 
@MooingDuck The language isn't that advanced.
 
@jornak ambiguous without a locale
 
@EtiennedeMartel Read and enjoy then
 
EN_US
It assumes EN_US.
 
8:35 PM
@DeadMG But I didn't want to create a diplomatic incident so I was all subtle like.
 
It's just the language doesn't compensate for the comma
 
@jornak what does? C++ doesn't. C++ defaults to the "C" locale, which doesn't handle commas.
 
VB :P
Or any higher-level language for the most part
 
@jornak C++ could do it, no problem. Just specify a locale that handles commas.
 
Can't do it in C++. Have to do it in this shitty HotDocs scripting language
If I were them I'd almost want to rewrite their entire automatic document generation system, but meh.
 
8:38 PM
@Prætorian Aw fuck! God damn idiot!
 
Like even using VBA would be more functional than this shit
I miss my old MS Access days when I have to work with stuff like this
 
@MooingDuck can do it -- it's not at all hypothetical. Most C++ implementations include a fair number of locales, that can things quite nicely. The coolest is the locale named "", which is automatically adjusted to what the user has selected, so with no change in my code at all, I can display a number as 123,456.78 for me, 123.456,78 for a German, and 1,234,56.78 (I think I got that right, anyway) for somebody in India.
 
Oh, yeah, and these guys even have an old access db they store all their clients in
 
> I'm begining to think that Romney might be a robot Democrats sent from the future to prevent anyone from ever voting Republican again. Its the only thing that makes sense at this point.
 
@Prætorian Actually, isn't the dailycurrant.com a satirical site like theOnion?
 
8:40 PM
@JerryCoffin "most implementations..." that's why I kept the fuzzy language.
 
@Chimera Oh, don't tell me that! I'm having way too good of a laugh
Is it really?
 
@Prætorian Yes, I think so. I looking to verify.
 
@Prætorian Yeah, it is a satirical site.
 
Well, fuck!
 
@MooingDuck Granted, it's not mandatory (and if you're building an engine controller with no UI, you're probably grateful for that), but it's been years since I've seen an implementation for normal desktop machines that couldn't handle dozens of locales.
 
8:42 PM
At the top: "The Global Satirical Newspaper of Record"
 
Yes it is. This is the top line on the site -- "The Global Satirical Newspaper of Record"
 
But still, Romney is a moron
 
@Chimera They're simply relinking an article from Mother Jones: motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/…
 
You look at his demeanor when he's talking to his millionaire friends.
It's completely different than his public face
Scary, even.
 
8:44 PM
@jornak Yep, I see it now. Should've gone to the home page before posting the link
 
@Prætorian The news are still genuine though.
 
@EtiennedeMartel True, but they added the rest of what he "supposedly" said.
 
As I recall (but comment now deleted) this gal is not really 36, but more like 14 or 16, doing C++11!
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Down boy. Keep it in your pants.
 
@EtiennedeMartel No it isn't. Most of what was reported was not actually said by Romney - that is the satirical part.
 
8:44 PM
Aaaah.
 
@EtiennedeMartel But he didn't say the Taco Jockeys part, just that it would've been beneficial if he were of Hispanic descent
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Are you more impressed by the age or that it's a female?
 
@jornak I think you are possibly thinking of sex. That's dangerous. One can end up kicking people all around.
@jornak the age, if it was true.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I know a lot of young developers O_o. It's getting to be more and more common.
 
re female in computing, recall lady Ada and rear admiral H.
 
8:46 PM
He still calls 47% of the US population "dependent".
 
Grace Hopper, I meant
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I know a 16-year-old that ran a million dollar company on his own (developing in Java mind you, but even then)
 
@jornak "Stephane" is a masculine name.
 
@EtiennedeMartel oh it's like "alex"?
or is it?
 
@EtiennedeMartel 47% of Americans are receiving some sort of government subsidy.. doesn't that make them dependent?
 
8:47 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf No. "Stéphane" is male. "Stéphanie" is female.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Cheers said "gal", I was just going off that
 
sorry for confusion
not expert on french names
 
@Chimera Maybe so, but being condescending and critical of nearly half the electorate is stupid
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ah, so that's where the 47% comes from.
 
or whatever the nationality :-)
 
8:48 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf How many 16 year olds do you know that have a job lined up straight out of university with one of the world's largest game devs? ;P
 
@Prætorian I can't comment on whether he was being condescending or not because I didn't hear what he said and I don't know what the full context is.
 
Stephane is the French equivalent of Steven
 
@jornak none. but in norway that kind of thing is very rare, because until just a few years (like, 3) people had to follow the grades in norway. no advance based on ability. only on age
 
@Chimera > "There are 47% who are with him [Mr Obama], who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it."

Mr Romney said in the video that his role "is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."
 
and still for most people in norway it's that way
 
8:50 PM
@Prætorian Wait, we're not entitled to food?
 
@Prætorian That is very unwise for him to be so blunt, but in reality he is probably right.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Don't remind me of grade skipping. I could have graduated 3 years early if my parents weren't idiots.
:P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Guess not
 
i think it's the result of some misguided socialism thing in the early 1970. at that time several higher level institutions and newspapers in norway were infiltrated by a very active communist group called "akp/ml". they liked mao tse tung and some other stuff, and had queer ideas about teaching
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm pretty sure that is not what he meant.
 
8:52 PM
@jornak I skipped one grade. I wasn't very happy with it.
 
@Chimera He might be right, but it pisses people off and plays right into the image of being a dumb, rich asshole
 
In Kindergarten, I tested at Grade 4 levels. Grade 2, tested at Grade 7. Grade 4, tested at Grade 10, lol.
 
@Prætorian Yeah, it's the usual right-wing argument "it's your fault if you depend on outside help, so you should starve".
 
some individuals of them still pop in the news, as professors or as newspaper editors, so on. they were very intellectual. and very stupid, talking about armed revolution
 
I honestly think that the lack of challenge I felt during schooling was the reason I did so poorly in my later years.
 
8:53 PM
so, current right wing problems in us, old left wing problems in norway
:)
 
posted on September 18, 2012 by Herb Sutter

The second panel from C++ and Beyond 2012 is now available on Channel 9: Alexandrescu, Meyers and Sutter – Ask Us Anything Here is the “Ask Us Anything” panel from C++ and Beyond 2012. Andrei Alexandrescu, Scott Meyers and Herb Sutter take questions from attendees. As expected, great questions and answers… Filed under: C++, Talks [...]

 
in both cases pretty invisible to the people at large
 
@EtiennedeMartel That is absolutely NOT the right-wing argument. The right-wing argument is that welfare is fine and needed. But if you are able to get off of welfare you should do so instead of becoming dependent on the government.
 
@Chimera You think these people become dependent on purpose?
 
mussolini's italia had the most people on welfare ever. it was also very efficient thing. as noted by xkcd, he even managed to make the trains run on thyme
 
8:54 PM
As a conservative, I understand that people need help from time to time, and don't mind helping others out. I however do mind it when people stay on welfare because it's easier than finding a job.
 
You think they like constantly needing help?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Of course not.
 
@Chimera: [Subject Change] You want to hear the scariest thing I've heard today?
 
@jornak Sure.
 
@jornak That Romney might be moving to Canada?
 
8:55 PM
@Chimera Was at a restaurant today, sitting next to some ~14-15 girls, talking about how One Direction are like the Beatles, but better.
(Brits coming to America, taking young girls by storm)
 
@Chimera Then why are there still so many people that depend on the government? Is it because they don't have any choice?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Some do, others only pretend to so they don't have to provide for themselves. Others need welfare for a period of time and them get off it when they get back on their feet.
 
The heck's One Direction? (Do I want to know?)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes A boy band that is quite popular with teenage girls.
 
I mean quite essentially they are correct that they sort of have the Beatles effect
 
8:56 PM
Fascism () is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to unify their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people through national identity. The unity of the nation is to be based upon suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of the national community through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics. Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration ...
 
But better than them? Ugh.
 
@EtiennedeMartel So clearly - like the Beatles, but better /sarcasm
 
@Prætorian I hate you.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Better?
 
Benito Mussolini's grand-daughter is sort of hot
@sehe Willkommen
 
8:58 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf What's this for?
 
@Prætorian Thank you.
 
@Chimera it's clickable
 
@jornak herzlichen Grüße
 
@Chimera I believe he was talking about Social Welfare
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Yeah I just did. Lol.
 
8:59 PM
> No self-respecting small businessman with a brain in the right place would ever employ a lady of child-bearing age. That isn't politically correct, is it, but it's a fact of life. The more women's rights you have, it's actually a bar to their employment.
Well...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The question isn't about who's entitled to food. The question is about what's the most efficient way of ensuring people get what they need/want. The right wing position seems to be that collecting less in taxes would free up money to hire more employees instead, so more people would get pay checks instead of welfare checks.
 
@sehe I actually don't know that much German. I've got the Rosetta Stone pack for it, but I've been busy. :P
 
@JerryCoffin In practice, that usually leads to more inequalities.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Does that invoke Godwin's law?
 

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