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4:01 PM
@Mr.kbok Yeah, I'm gonna whip those eggs so hard.
 
@ElimGarak Check what and how and why do you think that'd stop anyone from going around it
 
@ElimGarak How does the first part work with encrypted disks?
 
@Morwenn that reminds me, we harvested a fair amount of nuts this weekend. I'm going to make praline. keeping you guys posted
 
What makes it a performance bug? It's just a property of "compiler architecture" + "code-generation". I'd amend the wording there. Interesting to know wheter someone spots the problem on MSVC — sehe just now
 
@ScottW unexpectedly short
 
4:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes The same way it works with those which are not encrypted, all you need to do is make it fail to boot (automatic recovery which reveals access to command line) or boot into the installation media. Which seems kinda dumb, but hey, all of it is kinda dumb.
 
@sehe I'm skeptical. How do you get to the Ease of Access button without the pre-boot authentication?
 
@BartekBanachewicz What does that even mean
 
@Mr.kbok Souds delicious :3
 
@ElimGarak Where does the recovery or installation media get the disk encryption keys from?
 
@BartekBanachewicz For what?
@ElimGarak If it's encrypted, you need a key
 
4:06 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes They're stored on the drive itself, at least on the Surface Pro. It trusts Windows installers.
 
If you don't need a key, it's not encrypted
It's that simple
 
@ElimGarak Er, then Ease of Access is not a problem.
 
@ElimGarak You can't access an encryption key that's on an encrypted disk
 
@sehe I feel OP had done half the job here
 
@CatPlusPlus Tell that to the Surface Pro.
 
4:07 PM
If you can, it's not encrypted
 
@ElimGarak If you store unprotected encryption keys alongside the encrypted content, it's just a PEBKAC.
 
Physical access is second to last in the series of airtight hatchways, full disk encryption is the last one
 
Finished with the slider, some retard had hardcoded the with in the style. Why me?
 
There's no security beyond
There's no viable defence beyond
Sure, Windows could "check" what it's executing during boot (what does that even mean) but whatever the method it's using, you could just alter the kernel and be done with it
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow yay
 
4:10 PM
Or you know just not fucking bother with booting at all
Because you already have all the data
 
@CatPlusPlus Sure, but altering the kernel requires some expertise.
 
And it's not required
Digging the disk/memory card out of the device is not very hard to do
And security by obscurity doesn't work
 
Look, guys, I agree with you, I am just reporting from my experiments how things are in this particular instance. All I am saying is that said procedure completely invalidates having passwords on Windows on most users' machines. It's not meant for those passwords to protect from a serious threat, just pesky other users.
 
And really hardcoding checksums for everything that might start on boot (and where do you draw the line where boot ends? Should elevation for anything be disabled until it's baked into the kernel?) is inflexible and dumb and wouldn't work
Passwords matter when the OS is in control
Physical access and offline analysis are way beyond that
System account password stops software from logging in as your user, which matters for isolation
 
That is true. But I find it weird that the secure boot would trust the installer implicitly on encrypted drives in this case.
 
4:15 PM
@ElimGarak Just mount the disk on another system.
 
They're not encrypted if you can boot without a key
 
@CatPlusPlus wave arms and say 'magic'
 
The key could go into TPM I guess but it doesn't really make much sense if you can just turn it on and have the key in memory
 
BitLocker uses the TPM.
 
Secure boot trusts whatever is signed with trusted keys, there's literally no other way
 
4:16 PM
toilet paper memory
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Should still be stored encrypted anyway
 
I completely agree. But I am just saying, it's pretty hilarious how easy it is to add an administrative user to run over everything.
 
var handler = OrderFinished;
if (handler != null)
{
    OrderFinished(this, new EventArgs());
}
 
Again, it's easier than your overconvoluted way of replacing binaries
If you can mount the drive, then that's it
 
I'm sure there are bug reports.. the question is: how many MSVC bug reports are there regarding binding rvalues to non-const lvalues? MSVC2015 still does this shit
 
4:18 PM
You already have everything
 
@CatPlusPlus It is if you choose so.
 
Well, true. But I just needed to gain access to a system to which I forgot the password to a long time ago.
 
@ElimGarak It's a PEBKAC.
11 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@ElimGarak If you store unprotected encryption keys alongside the encrypted content, it's just a PEBKAC.
 
@MarcoA. just enable the warning
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, yes, I wouldn't imagine BitLocker gaining much traction if it couldn't encrypt the keys :v
 
4:19 PM
It only works if you choose convenience (not typing a password in pre-boot authentication) over security.
 
@MarcoA. They're not going to "fix" it, too many people use this "feature"
 
@Mr.kbok but.. but.. but wtf
 
Yes, but isn't that the default? That's why I am mentioning it.
 
@ElimGarak There are boot images for resetting system passwords
 
@ElimGarak It's just uneducated hype.
 
4:20 PM
@MarcoA. they don't even fix actual, problematic bugs (or take years). see zero-initialization
 
What do you guys think about the iterator section here?
> No iterators are provided to read a result set, because a result set is not a container. Its time and memory consumption are not easily predictable (without looking at the query execution plan). Maybe iterators will lead novice users also to misuse standard library algorithms like std::sort, std::accumulate, ... for which standard SQL functionality will be much better used, so the decision was not to provide iterators over result sets.
 
> If your computer does not have a TPM, you can still use BitLocker, but you will be using the Startup key only authentication method. All of the required encryption key information is stored on a USB flash drive, which the user must insert into the computer during startup.
Also this.
Seriously, it's not a problem with the system. All the user's fault.
If you choose to sacrifice security, well, you lose security.
@Elim ^ That's a default.
 
Curiously enough, that wasn't the case with my stock SP3. If that's the case, that's good.
 
SP3 what
 
Surface Pro 3
 
4:24 PM
> The BitLocker setup wizard will ask you how you want to unlock this drive. Fixed data drives can be configured to automatically unlock when the operating system drive is encrypted, to unlock after a password is supplied, or to unlock after a smart card is inserted.
And this.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ make the iterators const and sort problem is solved. accumulating client-side is fine if you need it.
 
user1804599
C++ is all about assuming the programmer isn't a moron so I don't see why this standard library feature should protect you from something like that.
 
okay, wasted 2 hours trying to fix a portable project because MSVC doesn't want to play along with the other compilers. It's like having 3 kids and one of those is a little demon who cries and stomps his feet if he doesn't get things his way.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ can't make an opinion without actually looking at an usage example. I think, though, that you should be able to call std::sort on a proxy result container, which would sort using the underlying SQL engine. But maybe I'm asking too much.
 
That's dumb
 
4:26 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I've never seen "Ease of Access", really. :S
 
When you get the result then the query was already executed
Plus you really can't do that with iterator interfaces
 
@Mr.kbok That would be pretty nice, but I doubt that implementation wise that would be easy to accomplish. Also I'm not sure wether SQL style sorting would satisfy C++ sorting requirements. In any way, the result set could be returned in the form of a const container/range and std::accumulate would be fine IMHO.
 
@sehe Left, relative to the power button on the login screen.
But as Cat says, there are also premade boot images you can use for the same thing, if your disk is effectively not encrypted.
 
Sure, you can accumulate easily with SQL and probably more efficiently too, but I don't think that using move_next and company is much better.
 
@CatPlusPlus Doesn't have to be a result set, and you totally can do that with iterators
 
4:28 PM
@sehe It gives access to the accessibility features. Magnifier, OSK, etc.
 
But, boot images require a working machine (to get them), that is. You can swap binaries directly on the password-locked machine inside a minute.
 
@Mr.kbok That won't work with std::sort.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Someone is going to write an adapter for range-for, so it's stupid to not provide it IMO
 
class result {
public:
    void move_next();
    bool is_eof() const;
    int get_column_count() const;
    std::string get_column_name(int column) const;
    int get_column_index(const std::string &column_name) const;
    bool is_column_null(int column) const;
    bool is_column_null(const std::string &column_name) const;
    value get_column_value(int column) const;
    value get_column_value(const std::string &column_name) const;
    value operator[](int column) const;
    value operator[](const std::string &column) const;
 
@Mr.kbok Yes the magical iterators that wouldn't yield results yet be able to react to std::sort() somehow transforming the query
 
4:29 PM
Sorry, this is the proposed interface.
 
@Mr.kbok You can't.
 
Providing operator[] but no iterators and move_next is a red flag to me, I'm not sure why.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Doesn't have to be std::sort per se.
 
Then the iterator interface is kinda silly.
 
If you're making a new interface then you don't need iterators either
 
4:31 PM
Exactly.
 
Also what you want is a query builder, out of scope for a DAL
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Because it's stupid.
 
Okay, forget it then
 
Why is all of this shit synchronous is the better question
 
Oh and is_column_null sounds... bad as well.
Maybe optional<T>?
 
4:33 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ operator[] is a column access here, not row
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ too much cruft
 
That's true.
 
That result class is essentially an iterator, FFS.
 
Top cake.
 
4:33 PM
Cake top.
Mmm. I'd love a cake top.
 
Guys, how long does frozen cookie dough last?
 
user1804599
Not sure if a value type is the way to go.
 
iterator over arrays of optionals
 
@ThePhD Err, papers welcome?
 
@Morwenn Yes.
 
user1804599
4:35 PM
 
@Griwes It'll take me until after the con to write the paper. ;~;
 
Alright, "fixed" BitLocker settings on the SP3 to actually be useful now.
 
Who's going to cppcon?
 
@ThePhD If the question was to know whether I am at the con... well, I'm not.
 
> To establish/close a connection to the database system the open/close methods are used
 
4:35 PM
@Morwenn Ooh.
 
> If the connection is already open, a db_exception derived exception should be thrown
 
@ThePhD Ville already agreed to write a paper he isn't willing to write; I doubt you'll find anyone else wanting to write a paper he doesn't want to write.
 
IOStreams 2.0: the databasening
 
4:36 PM
> IMHO, the argument against iterators in N3886 is artificial
and to me it looks like it's based on personal preferences.
 
http://t.co/wKUquZOi4C
 
@Griwes Guess I'll need to man up and do it somehow.
 
I see that people are giving him a hard time already.
 
the one on the right should be "consultant"
 
begin()/end() interface doesn't really work for database sets
 
4:36 PM
@ThePhD It's on the other side of the world xD
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yeah, it's bullshit.
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus why not?
 
> libc++.so: undefined reference to 'dladdr'
ugh llvm fix your shit
 
I was about to write something, but I see that many said what I was about to say already, and even provided an iterator based result class.
 
4:37 PM
guys
 
Or maybe, if you returned end() on empty set
 
I'm making a budget/list for a PC build
anything I should read/check out before I start?
 
@Mr.kbok What kind of build?
 
user1804599
I/O stream iterators also do that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Programming, photoshop. On budget.
 
user1804599
4:38 PM
end iterator signals EOF
 
user1804599
or error maybe
 
user1804599
dunno they suck regardless
 
And I mean pro photoshop (not me)
 
user1804599
fuck C++
 
Ell
4:39 PM
pro photoshop means good processor right?
or maybe it means you need good opencl or w/e
I'm a bit clueless really
 
it means a fucking load of ram
 
@Mr.kbok i3/i5 Intel CPU, 650+ (Ti?) Graphics Card (which should be dirt cheap now from NVidia/EVGA), no SSD (just a fuckin' huge harddrive or two to fit all that photoshopping / drawing you'll be doing, which if you don't get an SSD will be a massive amount of cash saved even if you buy 2), lower-end power supply, and then as much RAM as you like.
 
and a decent graphics card, though the cheapest are probably enough
 
And just... pick a mobo that fits in a mid-size case.
Unless you have a case.
 
I'm getting a SSD for build times though
 
4:40 PM
Well RIP HDD cash saves.
 
Max-out RAM. Do get an SSD for workspace.
 
@Mr.kbok but then you're switching to ruby
 
no, starting from complete scratch. I just have a screen for my laptop.
 
gosh.. I hope you guys aren't doing compiler stuff on laptops
or more serious stuff
 
Get a TB+ HDD if you want to store videos and stuff.
 
4:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Should I get a 4-slot motherboard? 6? 8? does that even exist?
 
I melted my laptop with a neural network training during my BSc
 
@Mr.kbok What kind of slot?
RAM?
 
yes
 
I have 32GB on my box, one slot.
Number of slots doesn't matter, just max RAM.
I personally wouldn't get less than 8GB.
Any flexibility in the budget at the end use for RAM.
 
I've never been able to use all 12 GB on Windows.
But if I had a Linux machine my thing would be screaming from the intense psychadelic transistor usage.
 
4:43 PM
Isn't RAM cheaper if you buy more, smaller cards?
 
Wasn't when I bought mine (December 2013)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 32 GB in one slot?
Is this a server or something? They don't make non-server 32 GB DIMMs. (yet)
 
Also, 32 GB in a single slot wouldn't be particularly efficient, given a 64-bit interface.
 
Don't you get a slight speedup when you have the RAM in that DIMM parallel configuration?
Where it's like 2 sticks in the same-colored RAM slots?
 
That's channels.
 
4:46 PM
@ElimGarak Yeah. Depending on the app, it's more than slight.
Since double-channel has double the bandwidth as single.
 
@Mysticial Might be misremembering.
Lemme check.
 
Sounds of Robot tearing open the side of his machine.
 
@ThePhD colored?
 
I need to change this sticky strip... let's spit on it for now
 
@Mr.kbok Typically, the channels that match have the same slot color to them, so if you get 2 ram sticks of the same make you put them in those same-colored slots....
 
4:48 PM
Basically, CPU memory controllers are limited via the mechanism of channels, while DDR3 interfaced DRAM cookies might have a 64-bit interface / cookie, a single channel is 64 bits wide. Therefore 2 cookies cannot be fully utilized if used in the same channel.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You got a single 32GB stick in 2013?
 
I'm not being very technical.
 
user1804599
> 01 WS-YEAR PIC 9(2).
 
@Mysticial Nevermind, it's 2x16.
 
4:49 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes That makes more sense? Laptop or desktop?
Even the 16 GB DIMMs for non-servers didn't exist until recently - and only for DDR4.
 
Yeah, topping out at 8 GB.
 
@Mysticial What do you mean by "non-servers"?
 
@elyse Trying to recreate the year 2000 problem? :p
 
Servers get all the good stuff, they are the first to get 6 channels. At best, consumer-aimed prcoessors give you 4 channels for a 256-bit interface (70-ish GB/s bandwidth, like the Xbox One, with DDR3 DRAM)
 
cpx
@R.MartinhoFernandes That much RAM for gaming?
 
4:50 PM
@cpx RAM IS FOR EVERYTHING
 
@cpx to play solitaire in Windows
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Server memory, (the "registered ECC" stuff) will go higher densities. But are only for server motherboards.
And they're more expensive.
Back in 2008, I filled a server with 16 x 4GB ECC server memory. At the time, the highest density desktop memory was like 2GB.
So I probably had more memory than the entire floor of the dorm.
 
there was a discussion about ECC being slower than non-ECC stuff
but I haven't looked at hardware issues for a long time
 
@Mysticial I can get 32GB sticks for my non-server board.
 
@MarcoA. It can be.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Did you mean "get", or did you mean "compatible with"?
 
4:53 PM
@MarcoA. Naturally, it can be slower as it does more than regular RAM, correcting errors and stuff.
 
32 GB non-server sticks don't "exist" yet, but I'm sure there are ES samples handed out to all the manufacturers for testing purposes.
 
@Mysticial What's the difference?
 
There are no 32 GB cookies yet. Best I've seen was 16 for a total of 64, usable with modern 4-channel processors.
 
server sticks are different than desktop?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The motherboard may support sticks as large as 32GB even if you can't actually buy them yet.
 
4:54 PM
@Mysticial No, I mean I can find them for sale.
 
What, link.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes link?
 
At least according to PC Part Picker.
 
The moment of truth.
 
Though lol, the sellers description says "server memory" superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=D318LR32GS&c=CJ
 
4:55 PM
STL has replaced all the purrs with hisses
 
I wouldn't mind 128 GB in my (possible) future Skylake build! Though I don't think any mobos support it yet.
 
@StackedCrooked Mainly error corrections and stability. But they also allow higher densities and will soon be able to fill up to 6 channels with the newest processor architectures.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, ECC LRDIMM. The super-dense server memory.
 
Hey folks, how's it going?
 
$270 for a 32GB stick is actually pretty cheap.
Oh, DDR3.
 
4:58 PM
What is wrong with ddr3?
 
I got these nutz. 8 slots, but 4 channels, so 256-bit interface.
 
@JohanLarsson Nothing. But it explains why it seems absurdly cheap.
 
@AndyProwl he must be voicing his discontent over C++17.
 
So, should I widen my job-search net to include JavaScript jobs? I've been avoiding them all so far.
Trying to stick with C++ or C# positions.
 
@JohanLarsson It's outdated, but nothing wrong with it. DDR4 is not really a huge shift wrt to other iterations, it's mostly increasing transfer rates and reducing operating voltages. No changes to the prefetch buffer (would fuck up latency).
 
4:59 PM
@ElimGarak I paid $1k for that back in December. I don't regret it though. Made good use of all that memory.
 
@caps yes, jquery is cool
 
Man, what would I give for 8 channels.
 
@ElimGarak i'm outdated
 
@ElimGarak Dual-socket Haswell.
 
5:01 PM
@MarcoA. It's alright.
 
@Stacked I thought the same
 
Skylake Purley will have 6 channels per socket. Though I do wonder if that will even be enough. Especially if they're gonna up the core count to 28 and have AVX512.
 
> and provided the following reason: No reason provided by your financial institution.
FUCK OFF
 
Yeah, that seems cheap on their part. I expected SP to double the channel count. Isn't even that much to expect.
 
5:02 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What is this?
 
Payment declined notice.
 
wut
@ElimGarak For Skylake?
 
Yeah, I kind of hoped for 8 channels. But I am overly enthusiastic often.
 
I suppose by then, the DDR4 clock speeds will be higher than a meager 2400 MHz.
 
Should I open the search to include Java?
I've always believed I hate Java.
But maybe I could do it...
 
5:04 PM
6 channels of 3000 MHz DDR4 is as good as double 4 channels of what's available now. (overclocking aside)
 
Cool there's a freely accessible grand piano at cppcon /cc @sehe
 
When is cppcon again?
 
@AndyProwl Andy, do you like run a thread at the back of your head that scans the environment for pianos?
Also, any idea when we're going to see 6960X specs?
 
@StackedCrooked 20-25 september
 
Ugh, FUCK THIS SO MUCH
 
5:09 PM
Ah, cool. So new videos will be coming out soon.
 
Now PayPal doesn't support paying without an account.
How will I get my cubes Q_Q
 
Visa?
 
@StackedCrooked I don't care about the videos, but I want the slides on GitHub to be available as soon as possible :(
 
What was I doing before I passed out...
 
@StackedCrooked hknowstore only supports PayPal.
 
5:10 PM
@ThePhD casting cowboys :)
 
Used to be able to pay without an account, but now there's no way.
 
Oh. I was trying to figure out how to determine the number of repeating digits for a rational number of the form 1/n, where n is an integer...
 
Current Xeon iterations seem to be maxing out at 1536 GB of RAM, but 4 channels, giving an estimated top bandwidth at about 102 GB/s (decent DDR4 cookies). Multisockets or go home.
 
I've had my 5960X for 9 months now and I haven't run a single memory benchmark.
I should probably do that some time.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, you haven been able to use paypal for multiple months now.?
 
5:12 PM
@Stacked yesterday they presented a mocking framework that contains cowboy cast in its implementation
 
Or did the previous problems get fixed?
@AndyProwl cool!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Isn't there a bunch of "is it really you" verification with Paypal?
 
The function is called horrible_cast
 
Anybody remembers the cowboy_cast? @ThePhD, right? Good times.
 
Oh btw. If you're in eastern US or western Europe:
A total lunar eclipse will take place on September 28, 2015. It is the latter of two total lunar eclipses in 2015, and the final in a tetrad (four total lunar eclipses in series). Other eclipses in the tetrad are those of April 15, 2014, October 8, 2014, and April 4, 2015. The moon will appear to be larger than normal as the moon will be just 59 minutes past its closest approach to Earth in 2015 at mid-eclipse. == VisibilityEdit == The eclipse will be visible over Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and the Americas. == BackgroundEdit == A lunar eclipse occurs when the Moon passes within Earth's...
 
5:14 PM
@ElimGarak Lies and slander.
There were never any cowboys.
 
@ElimGarak He refused to tell me what this cowboy_cast was about yesterday :(
 
@Morwenn Shhh.
 
It was essentially a reinterpret_cast IIRC.
template <typename TTo, typename T>
TTo cowbow_cast ( const T& value ) {
    union { T cow; TTo boy; } cast;
    cast.cow = value;
    return cast.boy;
}
 
Eww, how could you write such terrible code, StackedCrooked!
 
5:18 PM
Oh, so I was right after all. It was an union type-punning cast.
 
Elim plz.
 
@ElimGarak Not that shit again
 
Oh, I rememer this screenshot. I must have been around the time I was here :D
 
5:19 PM
It would be safer to use memcpy. Punning via union is UB btw.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Well, I haven't seen it in 3 years almost. :D
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
@ElimGarak for fuck's sake
 
;~;
 
user1804599
write memcpy_cast, not cowboy_cast
 
user1804599
5:23 PM
with static_asserts
 
@elyse lol
 
user1804599
it's the same as with unions, except without the UB
 
I think that's the original screenshot from PhD from 2013
 
user1804599
ok let's find that nice ST2 theme
 
user1804599
neon
 
5:24 PM
ST3 or bust
 
Fuck ST.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
buttiful
 
Yuck.
 
@elyse my WORKING-STORAGE SECTION. doesn't work pls help
 
5:29 PM
@ElimGarak inb4 flag
/cc @Nooble
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked SSCCE or GTFO.
 
Why are you implementing cobol again?
 
Why not?
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Because I don't use proprietary language implementations, and the only other FOSS COBOL implementation doesn't work on my machine.
 
Because it seems like there would be more interesting languages to implement.
Scheme perhaps.
 
5:32 PM
Or actually doing something productive. No? I'll show myself out.
 
@elyse So because you actually need a Cobol implementation?
 
user1804599
Yes.
 
@StackedCrooked /s/need/want/
 
Ok then.
Are you working for a financial institution perhaps? :)
 
5:33 PM
Ow, I have to go :/
 
Toodles.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked No.
 
See you later.
 
c u l8er guise
 
user1804599
I want to write part of a video game in COBOL.
5
 
user1804599
5:35 PM
I want to write parts of a text adventure game in many different languages and link them together.
 
As long as you're happy.
 
Phrases such as that are quite close in 'the book' to 'I want to burn my house down, its always laughing at me and it won't get away with it any longer'
 
@ElimGarak We're lucky that rightfold has such a short attention span, for that way we can rest assured that this abomination will never exist.
 
RIGHTFOLD DIVISION.
 
user1804599
5:52 PM
xD
 
> we have these nice uniform initialization rules in C++
yes, Herb, yes - nice and uniform ;_;
 
cpx
Why do I always confuse the logic behind using (a || b) and (a && b)?
Is it just me?
 
@cpx Maybe it's you && everybody else || maybe not.
 
@JerryCoffin smooth
 
user1804599
@cpx Because you are an inexperienced logician.
 
user1804599
5:58 PM
> On Sweedler’s cofree cocommutative coalgebra
 
user1804599
lol
 
@thecoshman That's me--Mr. Smooth! All the ladies want him dead, all the other guys want to be laugh at him.
 

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