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user406009
19:00
Bartek does have a good point about stateless wrappers for state-full apis. Consider the following api: "target.draw(vertex_buffer, indices, program, uniforms::EmptyUniforms)"
I don't know enough to understand half of that
@Lalaland that's how Hate's API looks, largely thanks to @ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ's input
yeah, you attacked my initial ideas and made me rethink a lot of things
I'm losing memory
19:01
I'd put program as first param.
Ell
Ell
You can make a stateless API while still wrapping resources in RAII
The rest are arguments to the program, so it becomes akin to function calls
user406009
@Ell Yes. I still think RAII is very useful.
@Ell I guess you can, yeah
user406009
Bartek's "no RAII" rule just seems foolish to me.
user406009
19:02
But the whole "stateless api" thing is fine.
Speaking of which, any good WebGL debuggers?
Ell
Ell
Anyway I'm off
I really need to make a class that makes CRTP easier to do.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Dont the chromium guys have a good one
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have had a WebGL inspector in Chrome since ever. Chrome also has three.js tools
19:03
Maybe "good" is too much to ask. Any WebGL debuggers at all?
*static_cast<Parent*>( this ) gets annoying, fast.
Tried WebGL Inspector today.
Doesn't seem to actually work.
user406009
@ThePhD Doing some mixins?
@Lalaland A bit.
I used one of these awhile back for debugging WebGL and it was decent: realtimerendering.com/blog/webgl-debugging-and-profiling-tools
19:04
btw @ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ haskellformac.com
I guess I'll just write crtp<T>, just like I wrote ebco<T>.
I dont remember which one though :p
I need to fix a bug in that thing and it's driving me nuts to not have proper tools.
Then I can go crtp<Parent>::get()
@ThePhD ecbo?
user406009
19:04
My main issues with Haskell are 1. Laziness is annoying. 2. Error handling isn't as nice as in other languages.
@Mr.kbok Empty Base Class Optimization
Laziness rarely matters before optimization.
It's usually called EBO
Really? I thought the C was in there.
user406009
@R.MartinhoFernandes Laziness makes it much harder to debug though. Not to mention the endless stack overflow exceptions.
19:05
Oh well. Guess I'd better go rename it in Heart.
@Lalaland is your code with those problems publicly available?
also, have you considered strict sequencing, if only for debugging?
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz I fixed it. It required throwing two seqs in random places.
called it, somehow.
user406009
As well as switching a foldr to a foldl'.
user406009
Took a bit of time to track down the right, magic place to put the seq.
19:08
what does that code do?
user406009
It was a very simple compiler.
I've seen a lot of perf issues solved with strict sequencing, with some blog posts elaborating on finding them
Going to eat now
> My standard pattern is to compile with -rtsopts -prof -auto-all -caf-all, run with +RTS -h and view with hp2ps -c
I'll make a buttiful thing out of this mess, I promise :D
19:10
cmon I wanna play at least an hour before sleep :< :<
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, but I think these discussions illustrate that laziness by default is not what you usually want.
why do they make these games so big
@AlexM. 50 Gb??
user406009
I realize that the laziness is necessary for other Haskell features, but there has got to be another way.
@Mr.kbok 80 after fully installed so count updates too I guess
19:11
@AlexM. Please tell me it's not an update
@Lalaland I have to disagree based solely on my anectodal experience.
@Mr.kbok nope
@AlexM. D: D: D:
What the tits
anyway, I'm off. will respond to plinks tomorrow.
19:12
80 GB. How do you even.
My only drive was 100Gb not too long ago
in contrast final fantasy xiv only takes 17 GB
I guess WoW hits over 100GB
forgot to check when I was playing MoP
@AlexM. lol 50GiB
user406009
I only have 25 GB of space on my hard drive.
user406009
15 GB remaining.
19:13
@AlexM. UNLIMITED
user406009
How could one game possibly use so much space?
@AlexM. Ugh. WotLK kept it reasonable at least :/
whenever I need disk space I uninstall Final Fantasy XIII
Man.
that one takes 90GB
19:13
All video editing sw I have tried so far sucked.
because all the video is uncompressed
get that
:@Lalaland You mentioned getting gcc off apt-get, right?
Blender is incomprehensible.
to fit ESO today I just deleted interstellar
19:14
OpenShot and Shotcut dies frequently.
I kept it on my disk for months now, never watched it
Bad song. Great memories :D
user406009
@ElimGarak Yep. "sudo apt-get install gcc" works quite well.
5
Q: Why heterogeneous comparison lookup is not implemented for `at` and `operator []`?

NicolasSince C++14 (N3657) member function templates find, count, lower_bound, upper_bound, and equal_range of associative containers support heterogeneous comparison lookup but at and operator[] don't have those equivalent member function templates. Why is that so ? Example :     std::map<std::strin...

user406009
@ElimGarak There is also a GUI package manager called synaptic.
19:15
@Lalaland gcc (Ubuntu 5.1.1-4ubuntu12) 5.1.1 20150504 when acquired there
@EtiennedeMartel "Required disk space: Unlimited"
gcc-5.2.0 (GCC) 6.0.0 20150902 (experimental) manual compile ( i like experimental stuffs)
Can you instruct apt-get to get experimental without compiling, that would be useful.
user406009
@ElimGarak You can enable experimental repositiories in Ubuntu to get newer stuff.
steam is really slow today too no idea why :<
19:16
I normally sit at a constant 10MB/s (max I can reach), now it's between 5 and 7 most of the time
@AlexM. Hotline Miami 2 is simpler than the first one :c
have you finished any?
I remember you saying it was harder
@AlexM. I finished #1 and I'm at the second act of #2
keep going you haven't yet reached the long levels with windows
I've done the level in the jungle last
19:18
I think I left the game two levels before the end but I so don't feel like going back :\
Anyway #1 was really fun to play
user406009
@ElimGarak But I would not recommend mixing both experimental repositories and the current stuff. It's usually better to just use one or the other.
user406009
@ElimGarak I just stick to the normal ones and manually compile the things which absolutely must be recent.
@BartekBanachewicz You know, my purist self says that an IDE for Mac only is wrong
user406009
Most stuff you don't need to be "hot off the presses".
19:19
But I guess it's fine :)
I separate them, so no issues. Especially as I'm not doing anything serious here. :D
user406009
For example, I don't care if my shell is 3 months old.
user406009
@ElimGarak Do you have the synaptic tool?
user406009
I'll guide you through the process.
@AlexM. I confused you with Rapptz thanks to your new avatar
19:20
we do look similar in colors
@Lalaland Acquiring it right now, actually
Wait you are alex?
it was my plan to get you to tell me rapptz secrets
Sheeeeit
I thought I was talking with Rapptz
why would rapptz even play HM
19:21
Why wouldn't he?
because he plays other things like
things that are not HM
o boy I got 10MB/s
OTOH why would you change avatar?
with a bit of luck I can get this to be updated by 0:00 and play until 1 or 2
19:22
I remember that feeling when I was a kid
Downloading shitty games, and hoping they would finish before bedtime
I started going to work a bit earlier here because agile development and stuff
so I wake up at 8 take a shower and I'm usually at work by 10:something
Agile requires you to wake up in the morning?
vs 12:something before
yea it's that scrum thing with standups and stuff
What?
You are a comedian now?
I thought it was shit before but it actually gets things done, or at least I get more things done now
19:25
How does it work?
see here
A stand-up meeting (or simply "stand-up") is a meeting in which attendees typically participate while standing. The discomfort of standing for long periods is intended to keep the meetings short. == Notable examples == By tradition, the Privy Council of the United Kingdom meets standing. == Software development == Some software development methodologies envision daily team-meetings to make commitments to team members. The daily commitments allows participants to know about potential challenges as well as to coordinate efforts to resolve difficult and/or time-consuming issues. The stand-...
the idea is that you meet up with your team "formally" to discuss what you've done the day before, what you'll be doing that day and if you need anything special from anyone
WTF. I thought you were Rapptz for sec.
@Mysticial Me too.
it also helps with knowing exactly what everyone does so you can easily spot future conflicts when it comes to fixing tasks
I like the part where you're motivated to do things in order to share your progress with the team
@EtiennedeMartel Inorite? I'm like, "Wait wut? Rapptz usually isn't on this time of the day."
19:27
@AlexM. So you all work at a single goal every time, and do standup meetings?
That's it?
That's "agile"?
what do you understand by "single goal"?
that's "Agile"
@AlexM. So you were talking out of your ass?
> Scrum was first defined as "a flexible, holistic product development strategy where a development team works as a unit to reach a common goal"
19:28
@EtiennedeMartel I wasn't talking, I was thinking
user1804599
user1804599
I'm so good.
common goal can mean a lot of things, but you can consider that the product is the common goal
That's clearly not what they mean there
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ "agile" means only planning short term objectives whilst having a long term overview of the whole thing. This means you can quickly change direction if things don't follow the original plan.
19:29
So what do you do?
I can't really give you concrete details lol
dirt@yoshi /usr/local/lib/cpp $ sudo gcc md5.cpp -o md5
/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.8/../../../x86_64-linux-gnu/crt1.o: In function `_start':
(.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main'
/tmp/cch3RRSs.o: In function `MD5::MD5(std::string const&)':
md5.cpp:(.text+0x3f): undefined reference to `std::string::length() const'
md5.cpp:(.text+0x4d): undefined reference to `std::string::c_str() const'
/tmp/cch3RRSs.o: In function `MD5::hexdigest() const':
md5.cpp:(.text+0xfaa): undefined reference to `std::allocator<char>::allocator()'
@BrockHensley Try compiling with g++.
@AlexM. I see
any pointers as to why this won't compile suddenly? It was working before...
19:30
don't dump your errors here
also you're compiling with gcc
gcc defaults to using the C linker.
> sudo gcc
lol sudo gcc
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ lel
19:30
I mentioned the standups because I thought they're the best things in the whole idea but there are other aspects that I haven't really gotten into like Etienne said
Scrum is built around constantly staying up to date with what your teammates are doing.
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Didn't you know? "sudo" just means try harder.
just read everything under scrum and think that's how I have to work now
ah thanks @ThePhD
upper management deals with stuff like sprints and all that so I just focus on day to day progress
19:31
@ThePhD Do you want help vampires? Because this is how you get help vampires.
user406009
@Griwes I think the chat should be willing to provide simple help to anyone.
user406009
More involved questions belong on stackoverflow, but we can do simple stuff.
@Griwes This actually sends them on their way pretty fast. He should already be gone and ignoring us.
Jul 3 '14 at 18:25, by Ty221
I thought the chat has been ccreated to get instant and fast help
You guys sure are fun for newbies
19:33
@BrockHensley just don't take it personally
Fuck, he came back. Mission failed.
I got puppied when I first joined
puppied hard
Scrum looks like a role playing game
Hmm. The remainings of spaghetti sauce I made on Sunday are pretty good as a, err, sauce to eat meat with.
I usually help out people like me in other channels, I know how it goes.
19:33
> Scrum master
lol
I wonder if it'll be similarly good on a sandwich.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ haha yea I'm glad I'm not that one
scrotum master
inb4 "Scrum narrator", "Scrum wizard", ...
I'd have to talk to so many people, scary
19:34
Heaven forbid I try to learn a new language, spend hours trying it myself before coming here
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Scrum Overlord.
@BrockHensley FWIW, you just dumped an error, you didn't introduce yourself, and you are now acting like a pissant: all of the reasons we usually DON'T help people.
Is writing using namespace xxx; inside another namespace okay or still evil
user406009
@Prismatic Usually still evil. Put your using namespace xxx; in an anonymous namespace at the top.
I wrote a paragraph. Deleted it. Pasted the error. Got the answer. Code/errors speak volumes when you have no idea what you are doing.
@BrockHensley Frankly you should've tried smarter: read the fucking manual.
19:35
Anyways. I had this working now it wont compile, not sure what changed.
@BrockHensley Yeah, but you are disrupting a chat for that.
That's rude
user406009
I think we should chill. People asking questions is fine.
Or, IDK...
Googling?
@Lalaland Its in a header, not a source file. If the using namespace xxx; statement is limited by its enclosing scope (I think it is... SO answers are kind of confusing though) I don't see why itd be bad
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Scrum mistress
19:36
31
A: C++ errors while compiling

ntroncosI believe you're trying to compile main.cpp with gcc instead of g++. #include <string> #include <stdio.h> int main() { std::string bla; bla = "BLA BLA"; printf("%s\n",bla.c_str()); return 0; } If you build the above code snippet with gcc you get the errors you mention. If you u...

user1804599
Sexist patriarchic scum.
@BrockHensley a good solution is to use something that doesn't compile anything
By all means you can ask questions, just don't expect anyone will actually answer them
First google result.
Also that sudo shows you have no idea what you are doing at all.
user406009
19:37
@Prismatic Is this a public, as in a library header file?
@Lalaland Yeah
why are you so fascinated with this topic now jeff lol
user406009
@Prismatic I guess it's fine, but there is a theoretical issue that someone might star relying on that alias.
So I'm using this MD5 class from here zedwood.com/article/cpp-md5-function and it was working fine but now even the md5 straight from the site wont compile
19:37
Next up "we shall sacrifice a virgin every monday, in order to have fortune in our weekly sprint"
user406009
@Prismatic So if you ever stop using it, it would technically be a breaking API change.
Sounds so unscientific, I don't know
It's like "Oh nothing is working, let's try talking while standing"
@ThePhD See, you've created a help vampire.
Shrug.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I don't think that's the point of the meetings
19:39
@Prismatic I limit my using namespace to as narrow scope as possible (which is pretty much the thing you should do with all declarations).
@AlexM. Isn't the point to be more productive in the meetings?
the purpose is for everyone to give a sitrep in a short timeframe so every day everyone knows what everyone else is doing and what troubles they encounter(ed)
you can't be productive in the meetings, you can be productive after them
@unordered_meow I agree, this is pretty much the first time I'm considering using it
I haven't encountered a situation where I needed using namespace not at block scope or function scope
I use a lot of using directives in general though, and apparently those are bad in headers too... ugh.
19:40
I haven't encountered a situation where I needed using namespace.
@AlexM. I disagree, but that's not important
using namespace std::placeholders;
@unordered_meow Technically I want it at class scope
Sounds weird, that's all.
@unordered_meow Can't remember ever using (hehehe) that.
19:40
I can't pin point what's wrong with it just yet, but my subconscious is laughing at that
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I think you need to experience it
there are lots of aspects to it and I'm guessing it depends on the person
Yeah, I would love to
std::bind(a_function_whatever, whatever(), whatever(), std::placeholders::_1, std::placeholders::_2); looks ridiculous
user406009
Yeah, the placeholders are annoying.
so I put using namespace std::placeholders; before
19:42
I think the best parts are the fact that you're "forced" to attend so you can't work around the schedule as if in an unorganized team, and the fact that you get to tell everyone about your progress and get immediate feedback
on the other hand you can avoid the issue by using lambdas instead
@unordered_meow I'm not a fan of bind either.
using namespace std::literals;
some people might feel a drive to do their job better by not appearing "lazy" to their coworkers I know I feel around 10% of that drive too :P
so yea there are lots of aspects
For complex numbers for example
19:43
std::bind is quite usable with overload set macro
@AlexM. There's a lot of drawbacks though
examples?
You're giving a lot of opportunity for your coworkers to nitpick on minute details
@Mysticial :<
The stand up meeting is the perfect opportunity for bikeshedding
19:44
I'd use lambdas normally, but std::bind is the tool for the job, and with lambdas you're repeating types and names twice
@Mr.kbok you can't because you only have 10 minutes in all (as in 10 mins for everyone to talk)
I usually spend 20 seconds telling everyone about my progress
if they need details they can come to me later
I really
REALLY
Nowhere I worked at they followed this rule, so the meeting always ended up 30 minutes long and people would sit on anything they could find including tables, trash bins
@AlexM. What would be the context of those 20 seconds for example?
wish you #include text into a string.
I NEED that to be a feature.
19:46
I imagine something like "Oh yeah, issue #12, I'm on it. Closer than yesterday that's for sure".
@AlexM. Of course it's my experience. People just can't shut up.
@BrockHensley Lounge<C++> can actually be pretty nice to newbies that are actually here to stick around and not dump questions.
Lounge<C++> formed who I am
Particularly my cynicism
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Are you gonna get a tatoo ? d:)
Damnit, I love that new Google favicon
user406009
19:49
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ You still have a while to go to reach Cat's throne of cynicism.
It's just so glorious, in the context
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It does look good.
user1804599
heil hitler
heil lambda
@elyse nice
19:50
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ "I continued work on task X, more exactly I finished writing up some tests and I'm now trying to get them to pass, I kinda found some problems in part Q of used but unrelated thing Z, so look at specific colleague I'm going to come by later and ask you some questions since you developed that one." is one example
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ The point is that standing is a motivation/reminder to be brief. Once you sit down it becomes easier to talk for hours.
I'll buy you a drink first next time.
@AlexM. I see. Interesting.
Maybe my issue is that I always have a coworker who can't get to the fucking point
I also intervene when someone says that they do something that may break what I'm doing so that they know that I'll drop by later to see how we can sync
19:51
aw man someone deleted a puzzle question I was looking at
@Prismatic Repost it yourself and post the answer too
@caps The issue is that the one talking usually is much less concerned by the standing up
not sure if that wasn't posted before
the idea is that you don't want the meeting to be long because all you need is to tell people that you'll discuss details later with them and then go to lunch :D
19:51
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I closed the tab and didnt even finish reading the question lol
it was one of those 'I'll come back to it'
and of course you'll discuss the details later otherwise at the next meeting you'll be saying "ooh I forgot to discuss those details whoops"
I suck at those kind of questions though so I'd probably give up
@Prismatic On SO?
the memset part is terrifying
@unordered_meow Terribleness.
19:52
If you have a link I can get the content
@Mr.kbok Right. You need some kind of A-type who can remind them to get to the point.
user406009
@unordered_meow that's horrible. I hope you left a one star review on amazon.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yeah it something about the frequency of characters in a string segment
Nah its gone, don't worry about it
@caps If there isn't you're screwed
How should @Nooble name his rendering engine?
19:53
@Lalaland I will if I find it
@набиячлевэлиь enginooble
rooble
@caps bingo
whenever someone goes into too much detail, someone else immediately says "we can discuss these while working, we should get to the point here"
@Mr.kbok I like this /cc @Nooble
maybe it's just my team that's taking things seriously but it works wonders
19:55
@Lalaland I often find myself in situations where I think that if I was the senior programmer, I would tell specific people to get to the point, only to realize that I would probably just rather have them not talk at all.
@AlexM. yes. you have a good team I think.
lol the download dropped to 2MB/s
4 hours remaining :'(
@Mr.kbok Some people need more liberal arts education to learn how to communicate clearly and succinctly.
some people need to shut up IMO
but yeah, I guess that's related.
@AlexM. Nice
I work with people who can talk for dozen of minutes about things that were discussed one hour ago
It's insane. I didn't even knew that was possible.

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