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07:00
I'm not breaking anything by installing zlib am I?
(if, say, zlib updates beyond the version found by default in MinGW)
doubt it
zlib has been 1.2.8 forever.
I reworded the MinGW packages warning
btw
mmm
I think I'm almost ready for going back to hobby dev
I found out that you do 32-bit and 64-bit separately because mingw-builds by default doesn't compile with multilib support.
07:04
my sleep schedule is stabilizing
@Rapptz it's a bit more complicated
@Rapptz if you use 64-bit SJLJ you get multilib
I know.
the 32-bit SEH patent expired AFAIK
so soon (cough) we should be able to get 64-bit multilib SEH MinGW
oh look a java update
@Rapptz I'm not certain exactly what you're implying with this - should I change something, or?
07:06
nop
so does it look good?
or any suggestions?
it's ok
nop
ok thanks for your feedback
odd thing
I wonder if I still have the make bug I had with the old 4.9.2
yep
what is the bug?
07:12
compiles with g++ but links with gcc.
I noticed this with my regular shell (i.e. cmd.exe) but when I built OpenSSL on MSYS2 this didn't happen.
And it didn't happen just now.
So the bug only happens on cmd.exe.
I guess I should just stick to msys2 when I want to compile things through make.
that's not really a make bug, is it?
I think it is.
sounds more like a ./configure
No configure step.
make only does what it's told to do
07:14
Just pure make.
then the Makefile is bugged?
Try it yourself.
do you have a SSCCE?
just download this and try to build it
mingw32-make mingw.
So Lua is bugged then I think
07:15
No it isn't just Lua's makefile.
It's every makefile.
> By default this option is empty, not allowing you to backspace over characters that weren't entered during the current insert mode session, the automatically inserted indentation, or across line breaks. This is the standard vi behavior.
I just chose Lua because it's what I used just now.
well
07:16
far-right gains shitloads of votes, centre party gets completely savaged
and we're on course for a Conservative-only government
@Puppy what does that mean for you?
lovely.
@BartekBanachewicz It means that we just voted in a bunch of bigots and generally morons.
gerr, I can't get bi-conjugate gradient to work for my number of unknowns, can't cross 20k unknowns...
user1804599
07:19
How are the votes translated to seats?
user1804599
I heard one party got 3 million votes but only 2 seats.
user1804599
And another 0.5 million votes but 50 seats.
@Puppy Does that make you morons?
user1804599
Brits aren't Dutch, so yes they are indeed morons. :P
@BartekBanachewicz Collectively, yes.
@rightfold 3.6 million votes, and 1 seat.
07:21
I always knew UK is a collective bunch of morons.
and thank God for that, because they're the national racism party.
user1804599
@Puppy But why only 1 seat?
user1804599
In NL if you get 50% of votes you get 50% of seats.
How many presidents is that?
07:22
@rightfold FPTP
user1804599
@Mikhail The largest party gets to choose the president.
hello all
user1804599
(Whose only job it is to tell everybody what went wrong again.)
did any1 of you implement a mfc dialog based application? and why?
@rightfold that's an important job
@Robson no, because why would we.
07:24
@BartekBanachewicz thanks for your answer
@Robson You want Qt
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz my job is importanter.
user1804599
@Mikhail nonono, you want a CLI.
user1804599
Automatable, composable and simple!
@Mikhail I am not sure why anyone would want Qt either.
07:25
@BartekBanachewicz Much easier than MFC + portable?
@rightfold Has a much higher learning curve and less flexibility
@Mikhail That might make you want to pick Qt over MFC. What's not so clear is why you'd want to use Qt at all.
@BartekBanachewicz I wrote a realtime imaging platform and needed a widget kit?
When I said "you" I meant general "you"
as in, a person.
if you don't need cross-platform support, WPF is by far superior to Qt.
also Mono is bridging the gap rapidly
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz I can use Emacs. No learning curve is too much for me!
@rightfold doesn't mean it's right for everyone.
07:27
@BartekBanachewicz Never used WPF, how it better than Qt?
user1804599
Fuck everyone.
I don't need to implement a dialog based application, I was just thinking if that could be a real possibility
user1804599
Yes, it is indeed possible.
user1804599
Pretty much everything is possible hth.
@Rapptz the problem seems to be that Lua uses implicit Makefile rules
07:28
@Mikhail It actually utilizes more modern approach to UI design via bindings, uses a saner language that lends itself better to UI development, has access to more native controls and interfaces...
@Rapptz and that mingw32-make uses g++ for .c as an implicit rule
@Rapptz and it also doesn't pass CFLAGS
I could perhaps use Qt sometime but the fact they have their own "standard" library is a huge turnoff
QTurnoff
(If I want to write C++) I want to write in C++, not Qt++
Isn't WPF like C# :-)
07:30
@Mikhail WPF is mostly used with C#, yes.
user1804599
F#
@BartekBanachewicz at the end of the day, any framework you choose will make you dependant on that
user1804599
JavaScript.
user1804599
07:31
You can use WPF with Rust through Emscripten!
@rightfold no, its some C# stuff. But you can indeed use Qt
@rightfold you're getting in the territory of "plonk because shouting random statements just to heat up the conversation instead of adding value"
@BartekBanachewicz you don't want Qt++, you can go full c++ and write your own code, but to be more productive you must use some kind of framework
@orlp I figured this out long ago.
user1804599
What does heating up the conversation mean?
07:32
It's still a bug.
@Rapptz the thing is, the implicit rules are part of GNU make
user1804599
Conversations aren't matter. They can't be warm.
.c shouldn't use g++.
@rightfold Making statements that are provocative
Another topic: does anybody see the number of lounge users going down as C++ compiles improve?
07:32
does mingw32-make emulate GNU make?
@rightfold it's not supposed to be taken literally.
@rightfold "make it more interesting" or "start a fight"
mingw32-make is just GNU make.
@BartekBanachewicz LMAO. You need to get thicker skin.
mingw32-make --version.
user1804599
07:32
Well if you want to fight over using Rust with WPF then I'm totally fine with that.
then I guess it's a bug
@rightfold I precisely don't want that
user1804599
It would be silly and dumb, though. But still funny.
@Robson why? You don't even know my requirements
@Rapptz maybe you could ask the Lua maintainers to put in the implicit rule explicitly in the makefile?
07:33
besides, me wanting to use C++ was largely hypothetical
it won't break anything
it's not just lua.
true
the thing is it uses implicit rules regardless of an explicit rule being there.
@Rapptz that shouldn't be true
07:34
m8 this bug has been my plague for eons
@BartekBanachewicz you are right, but I was thinking about "big" programs that requires some good months of coding at least
@orlp Makefile shouldn't even exist
@Robson that's still not enough.
you need to define your requirements, your project team skillset and preferences, your budget, and only then choose technology
choosing a technology just because it "feels" right for the project is silly, unless you're just learning or experimenting
user1804599
technology :: (Requirements, Skills, Preferences, Budget) -> Technology
technology = const Haskell
4
@BartekBanachewicz is it possible to be coding for months, in a single project, and not use or create a framework?
@Robson yes.
@rightfold I like it
user1804599
07:36
"Framework" is a buzzword that means "SRP-violating library".
except unnecessary uncurry
but I'll accept it to make const easier
user1804599
const :: a -> b -> a :(
@BartekBanachewicz lol, but how can you productively be coding for months and not rewrite any line of code?
user1804599
I can do it in LiveScript!
07:37
@Rapptz not on my machine
this ain't Scala
user1804599
const_ = (x, y) --> x takes arbitrary amount of arguments.
@Rapptz adding this to the Makefile fixes the issue:
%.o: %.c
	$(CC) $(CPPFLAGS) $(CFLAGS) -c $< -o $@
@Robson "rewrite any line of code" != "use or create a framework"
you don't understand
the makefile already specifies a .o to .c mapping
07:38
@rightfold what if b ~ (a1 -> a2 -> a3)?
doesn't that fit?
e.g.
lstate.o: lstate.c lprefix.h lua.h luaconf.h lapi.h llimits.h lstate.h \
  lobject.h ltm.h lzio.h lmem.h ldebug.h ldo.h lfunc.h lgc.h llex.h \
  lstring.h ltable.h
@BartekBanachewicz yes, but implicitly you are creating your framework if you rewrite/repeat lines of code.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz yes.
user1804599
But it isn't.
but even if you override the implicit rules it uses through the CLI
it doesn't use them and I don't know why
iunno it bugs me still
user1804599
07:39
λ (const 1) :: Int -> Int -> Int -> Int

<interactive>:6:8:
    No instance for (Num (Int -> Int -> Int))
      arising from the literal `1'
I wish it was just lua
user1804599
(const 1) :: (Int -> Int -> Int) -> Int works fine but that's not usable this way.
@rightfold I see.
user1804599
You want const3 :: a -> b -> c -> d -> a.
@BartekBanachewicz are you just trolling or being serious?
@Robson I'm being serious.
user1804599
cooooool applyWhen :: Bool -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
@Robson if you repeat lines of code you're writing shitty code in the first place
try rewording
07:43
@BartekBanachewicz agreed
> Warning: do not install any package with mingw in its name through pacman
why?
what's wrong with MSYS2 Gcc dist
@BartekBanachewicz read right below the warning
ergh... stuff
it doesn't really matter if you use pre-built ones.
user1804599
07:46
@orlp Steam
@orlp uh I get that. Why prefer MinGW builds over MSYS2 pacman builds
@Rapptz exactly. So why the added (not small) hassle
if you opt for MSYS2 builds you can install everything through pacman
@BartekBanachewicz 32-bit toolchain in MSYS uses DWARF exception handling, and I want to be able to upgrade my MinGW version at-will without having to use their packages
@BartekBanachewicz you said: "I don't want to write Qt++". I wanted to exemplify that if you use any framework you will have to learn that framework and adapt your code to it. Even if you make wrapper classes to encapsulate the framework, you will have to learn the framework to do that (the other programmers might not need to, but you will). So you will have to write c++ or any other language tied to that framework
@orlp is 32 bit like those old Atari PCs
I only want to use MSYS2 to run autotools basically - I want to control my own toolchain
07:47
the exception handling doesn't matter for C libraries
because it has none
@orlp so it's basically a nightly dev environment you're suggesting there
might want to point that out
if you want "good defaults", get default packages vOv
@BartekBanachewicz no, everything I've used is stable - I just have a dev environment that allows you to use nightly if you want to, or if you want to use a new stable version or an old version without having to rely on the package system, you can
lol
@Robson You don't have to use a framework to write code.
compiling something doesn't imply it's a nightly.
07:49
@Rapptz exactly
compiling something "just because" without a need for it is silly though
@BartekBanachewicz not everyone agrees
there are valid reasons to build.
esp. if there are good, relatively fresh prebuilts available via your package manager
see: Gentoo
user1804599
07:49
@StackedCrooked because convention A is typically used in situation A and convention B is typically used in situation B and the conventions are optimised for those situations. Also ABI.
@Rapptz what if you turn off all the lights?
@BartekBanachewicz I don't have enough experience with MSYS2 to make that judgement call
5.1.0 is ABI breaking from 4.9.2 and any prebuilt from 4.9.2 won't work
@Rapptz sure. And they apply in specific situations, not as a general, "reasonable default"
the fact that they chose DWARF for 32-bit only speaks negatively to me
07:50
@orlp yet you chose to write a guide that uses it
taking prebuilt libraries in C++ with different thread model, exception model, etc is a bad idea
it's not that black and white
@BartekBanachewicz no, I don't use MSYS2 for its toolchain
sounds like most of the internet guides, where the author has little to no idea about things he's writing about
you don't know anything either tbh
@orlp and that's my point exactly
07:51
@BartekBanachewicz yes, but if you are writing "good code" you will end up with a framework to group up your most used pieces of code.
I'm only critiquing their toolchain choices
so I'm not sure why you're critiquing
@Rapptz YOU KNOW NOTHING JON SNOW OMG IM SO SMART
cute
user1804599
07:51
what is jon snow
user1804599
is it like jon skeet wearing winter bash hats?
355/133 = pi
@orlp I'm only critiquing your toolchain choices :)
I'm critiquing your mom :P
07:52
the guide is fine, I'd just add a remark that using MSYS2 GCC is perfectly fine in most situations
because that's the reality of it
user1804599
@TonyTheLion No, you're fornicating with her.
msys2 doesn't come with GCC
especially if you ignore 32bit which is really reasonable in 2015 when even iPhone has a 64bit CPU
user1804599
I'm croquetting your mom.
07:52
@Rapptz come on I meant GCC available via pacman.
@TonyTheLion How nice of you to stop by just to say that
@TonyTheLion good to see your back on form :D
user1804599
He didn't get what he voted for so he has to spend his miserable time in Lounge<C++>.
@orlp Why do you say that?
@rubenvb because the main reason for 32-bit builds is compatability, and SJLJ is by far the best compatability choice
@rubenvb the only reason to choose DWARF on 32-bit is a small amount of speed
07:54
It's the version that makes sure exceptions aren't expensive, and that the libgcc works with Clang.
As in, you get a functional 32-bit and 64-bit Clang with MSYS2. FYI.
@orlp And why would you not choose it?
(I am fully aware of the "bugs" it has)
@rubenvb compatability with win32
interop with other win32 C++ code
@orlp what is this perceived compatibility then?
@orlp Do you have a real world example?
And no, MFC doesn't count, cause, well, that's linked to VS.
@rubenvb I haven't personally used it, but passing exceptions through windows callbacks
@orlp And where is that ever used?
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus can I have your carpet?
07:57
and being able to link with VS generated code
From Windows callbacks you shouldn't throw ever
@orlp That has nothing to do with dw2, does it?
@rubenvb you can't catch exceptions thrown in VS compiled code then
or vice versa
DW2 can't deal with foreign frames
@orlp You can't do that with sjlj IIRC...
07:59
@CatPlusPlus sigh
Sigh what, the OS can't deal with C++ exceptions of any kind
user1804599
What I guess the point that I'm trying to make is, is that dw2 works for 99% of the cases, and there is no reason to see it being used as a "bad design choice"
That, and you should really be building for 64-bit and not care about 32-bit quirks anymore.
I said this two years ago.
I'm still saying it.
People still aren't listening
WHAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY
> That, and you should really be building for 64-bit and not care about 32-bit quirks anymore.
that I agree with
which is why I don't care about 32-bit few % of speed in exception heavy code
Because many OSS projects still don't fully support Win64
08:03
@CatPlusPlus I think that's not true anymore.
user1804599
Many OSS projects don't support Windows at all.
More often than not they only provide 32-bit builds and mark 64-bit support as experimental and haha have fun on your own
@CatPlusPlus doesn't mean it doesn't work.
They're just being lazy bums.
Does mean it doesn't get support
Firefox is a star player there.
08:04
And probably nobody tests it
Might as well not be there
user1804599
I want to develop software for computers that have 16B RAM.
Easy! Just run 5 instances and have them pass messages with COM.
COM is love
True story: large graph walking algorithm performed faster on 32bit. The program was MPI parallel so we ran more instances to fill the RAM.
403 Forbidden
user1804599
08:12
Killing people is also forbidden.
user1804599
@StackedCrooked attempt clang
user1804599
I use Gunicorn in production. It works very well.
I just replaced my Gunicorn app with a static html+js page... Look ma, no server :-)
user1804599
webdevRIP
08:23
@Mikhail why would you deploy a server in the first place?
Ouch, there goes Ed Miliband...
"StringBuffer"... because the string might have one of two values... and erm... the person wanted to keep the decleration of this 'stirng' in the same place... I don't know :(
Ell
Ell
My constituency let down!
@Ell you shat yourself?
Ell
Ell
08:36
Let me down I mean
And my party down
my tests are very fucking slow
@khajvah You should make them faster
@khajvah They should stop fucking to save time.
or distribute them with a simple mpirun?
user1804599
@thecoshman delete the code.
user1804599
08:46

user1804599
If I hit delete and then return I send an empty message.
user1804599
This is very weird.
Might be the Dvorak?
@rightfold must be one of those odd delete characters that actually take up space
@rightfold WTF
08:51
lol
user1804599
I want to implement Perl or PHP.
user1804599
PHP on JVM would be cool.
PHP is cool on anything

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