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15:00
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know that.
@Lucy Bartek is trolling you to make himself feel more powerful, like so many other men. Feel free to ignore him :)
Ugh. If I may continue
@Cinch Why did you ask?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm asking for a different answer
The definition of Cinchness.
15:00
A wrong one, you mean?
What I mean is that does it really matter how it's implemented? How does C++ treat the implementation requirements of a pointer?
@Lucy you essentially haven't answered my question.
Why would you want an answer different from the correct one?
@R.MartinhoFernandes General may be correct but vagueness makes for poor learning
@Cinch C++ pointers are different to x86 pointers or ARM pointers or Alpha DXP pointers.
15:01
@LightningRacisinObrit Yeah! I stoled it off the internet, cause I thought it was awesome!!!
@Nisk The transition between the two levels is not linear and anyone that used a compiler from this millennium should not assume it is.
@milleniumbug "Pointers" don't exist outside of C , C++, and other languages that use the same semantic for memory. So what's up?
@Lucy such thievery ;p
@Cinch pascal
@LightningRacisinObrit Yes, I'm bad! ;p
15:02
@AlexM. too late.
@R.MartinhoFernandes in the end it's all just memory. You can have the crazy integer pair pointers ( I guess you might be refering to Apples workaround for 4GB memory limit on 32-bit systems) - and sure then you can't treat them as numbers, but most commonly (in my experience working mainly on linux) - I never had problems treating them as numbers. If I had a problem - I would go read up the docs, then adjust. Until then, meh.
@Lucy I bet you are ;)
@Cinch Java has pointers.
@Cinch not really
@R.MartinhoFernandes java has references
15:02
pascal has pointers
@Nisk Fuck off.
@AlexM. I know other languages have pointer semantics
@Nisk Which are pointers with a slightly different name.
I won't spend the day quoting the spec to morons.
@R.MartinhoFernandes you get in a world of pain if you treat them as pointers.
15:03
@Puppy Which are actually pointers in the Java spec itself.
@Puppy no they aren't.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why not? What makes today different from any other day?
is Nisk still around?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wish I had a readable spec that was for noobs lol
he always seemed like an elaborate troll to me
15:03
Guess what NullPointerException is.
@Nisk What happens if I do ((Foo*)null).bar()?
Anyways, continuing with the register-based language
@AlexM. shhhh
@AlexM. he really isn't elaborate at all
It happens when you do abc.bar() when abc == null
15:03
@LightningRacisinObrit LOL ;)
@AlexM. Not so elaborate really
@Nisk Are you admitting to being a troll?
just kick him, robot
I suppose that's his way to back out of his ignorance
but yeah, kick him.
If we just assume a global register where each thread is encapsulated and may have controlled operation over another, then we can have a nice time managing how our threads do stuff
15:04
I think he's pretending to be a troll now that he's realised there's insurmountable evidence that he's a complete moron
i have a stalker
in Discussion between sehe and Ben J, 34 secs ago, by sehe
Sorry Lucy, it's the second time now you direct-target me. If my presence on SO is not enough for you, then I will gladly ignore your messages.
The Eternal whatever rages on, forever.
Please don't spam, @Lucy babe.
@LightningRacisinObrit hi
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, I'm not a troll, just not awfully serious. rather I take things that interest me seriously, the rest less so.
15:04
i.e. We can simply allocate register space and then depend on internal memory, like a black box, for execution of the threads
@LightningRacisinObrit Yes.
@Cicada Oh wow. yes, yes, you are rite
september, is not raging
@Nisk question mark?
@LightningRacisinObrit you're excused.
ok that wasn't me
While we will inevitably encounter a stack (maybe?) on the lowest level because of architecture, the point is to try to emphasizee a different paradigm of management
15:05
@Nisk If only.
validating anyway
@rightfold you still here?
@LightningRacisinObrit Sorry! I was just being polite and answering you.
> This user has been automatically suspended for posting inappropriate content and cannot chat for 29 minutes.
There's no excuse for any of you in here
there we go
15:06
> This user has been automatically suspended for posting inappropriate content and cannot chat for 29 minutes.
30 minutes' peace and quiet
What happened?
Oh well.
thank goodness
@Cinch Program function calls are inherently a stack and that is expressed even in pointlessly-dynamic or mutation-allergy languages.
@Lucy Yeah I meant posting links to your questions in random chatrooms!
user1804599
@Cinch absolutely.
15:06
@R.MartinhoFernandes Someone took an opportunity to get rid of the idiot. It wasn't even me. Neither was I the one who took the opportunity!
@Puppy But we can abstract away the stack like in C if we like.
in fact even Prolog effectively had a call stack.
@AlexM. Seems like laziness to me (like the other day). This corroborates that. I'm not sure what to think of it. I do know how much energy to spend.
@LightningRacisinObrit OH! I'm sorry, I was just trying to get attention to my question in hopes that someone could help.
@Lucy That will backfire. For very good reasons. Unless you pay for the advertising you'll just be more ignored
15:07
The point is that we should be able to access the status of all threads in memory and determine their state from a certain global supposedly read-only register
@Nisk And again you show the slightest bit that prompts Lightning's statement before about the effect in the industry as a whole. You don't care that people already told you how it works countless times. Then even read the docs for you and posted the few bits that are important here. You just stubbornly hold the view that you must be right.
user1804599
For the call stack I just use the one that's already there.
even though we might have concurrency errors we can give the programmer tools to implement condition-based concurrency
user1804599
But the call stack and the operand stack are different things.
user1804599
Although the latter can be stored in the former.
15:08
@rightfold I just wouldn't use a stack semantic
@LightningRacisinObrit funny
@sehe I'm sorry, I saw that you were an expert and really hoped you could help.
user1804599
The call stack is per thread and describes function calls and local variables. The operand stack is per stack frame and stores operands to and results of instructions.
@BartekBanachewicz That was not very nice.
@Cinch Why in hell would you want to do that?
15:09
lol flag
@Lucy Flattery doesn't make it less intrusive. Apology accepted. I just thought it was time to notify you :)
@Puppy Because flexibility?
@Cinch You don't have much of a choice unless you want to completely re-invent from scratch how functions work.
user1804599
@Cinch Implicit share-everything? eww.
15:10
@rightfold But read-only.
> This user has been automatically suspended for posting inappropriate content and cannot chat for 29 minutes.
Be nicer, Bartek. That is all.
@Cinch The only things you're making flexible are things you never need or want to do.
user1804599
It requires lots of coordination to get it right.
@Puppy Well let's do this, for example:
@LightningRacisinObrit cough
user1804599
15:10
You still need to write it somewhere.
Say we have a reader-writer program with concurrency
@sehe Throat problems?
Yesh :)
user1804599
Memory locations that are not writable are typically useless.
@sehe OK.
We need to read from 3 files at once
writes workaround for buggyadic templates ... uses inheriting ctors in said workaround ... crosses fingers
user1804599
Shared mutex.
@rightfold Or something of the sort
Let's say we have 3 config files and we need one output
Have a good day / night everyone. I'm out of here for now. :-)
OMG IT WORKED.
...
Okay let's use a tennis program
Say we have a global register of 64 "spaces"
@R.MartinhoFernandes kudos
And we have 2 files
I came with popcorn! But I think I missed the opportunity
15:12
I forgot how much I enjoyed "War"
We are reading a log of a game of tennis, where we have "HIT" "OUT" and "POINT"
@R.MartinhoFernandes hint: ifff it works, it most certainly will not on MSVC (oh wait, buggyadics, is MSVC likely)
@TravisJ Interesting fetish
user1804599
Having threads observe registers of other threads kills any form of optimisation and makes everything difficult for no reasona t all.
The logs are for the two players and we need to determine how the game went and consolidate the log into one
15:13
@sehe I'm in the process of getting it to work on MSVC.
The popcorn fetish is real.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I remember doing similar things then. Also remember needing "forwarding" constrictors manually with enable_if. I believe I posted it in the lounge once
@rlemon - Never underestimate the value of joy :)
Now, using our register-based programming language, I will allocate three threads
user1804599
You need coordination to determine the turns.
15:13
@TravisJ I go through phases where I forget bands exist for years at a time
@sehe That's what I'd use before inheriting ctors.
I fail to see how concurrency can be of any use here whatsoever beyond asynchronous I/O for reading and writing.
each with a 8-space width in the register, where T1 has 1-8, T2 has 9-16, etc.
then i 'rediscover' them and it is amazing
Sometimes simple things are easy to enjoy.
15:14
And after inheriting ctors when they were broken as fuck.
@rightfold right.
So let's do this:
@rlemon - Or like when you really wanted to remember a song, but then forgot, but then hear it randomly :)
Or, actually, we'll do it in one thread
And have two subthreads or fibers
T1 and T2
@Cinch - So a hit after out or point would be a serve?
@TravisJ or a hit back
@TravisJ yes, the first one would be a serve
So in T1, we'll read the file.
T2 will know NOTHING about T1 and we can assume T1 is a different program
All it can see is the input, output, and status markers for T1
user1804599
Actually, doesn't work.
It compiles but the tests don't actually pass.
Fuck.
I hope it's not a codegen bug.
that moment when you hope the bug is your fault, not the compiler's.
T2 will continuously check if T1 is done and access a certain space if it is
a busyloop?
that is particularly dumb.
@R.MartinhoFernandes - I have had that happen with SQL providers before =/
15:17
T1 will have 2 fibers
Feb 25 '14 at 10:40, by sehe
AAAAGRGRAGE MSVC Stop being dim
user1804599
@Cinch meh
user1804599
Use cooperative multitasking, not spinlocks.
@TravisJ Happens a lot with MSVC.
@Puppy It can also signal T2 if we give T1 dominion over T2
user1804599
15:17
Way too low-level.
@sehe I spent more than enough on my first encounter with him
so I stopped after that
@rightfold But we can wrap this in a high-level interface
T1 will read in our two files with each Fiber reading a file
user1804599
Use high-level constructs such as channels and mailboxes.
also there's literally no purpose in having more than one thread here.
@rightfold Wait a second
@Puppy Just say it's in real time
Say that instead of files we have a continuous live stream
The two fibers will run its own instructions, also held in a black box
by the nature of the language, each instruction or composed instruction (function) will also have an open input-output interface
We can also set instructions to operate in place or to map (possibly part of our base instruction set)
But the point is that error checking will neatly be handled by the programmer simply by checking something
15:20
@sehe I don't understand where the advantage of VC++ lies, anyway. One can use GCC and VS with Makefiles IIRC, and GCC seems to be a better compiler in its entirety.
@R.MartinhoFernandes around this time:
Jan 10 '14 at 16:37, by sehe
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh hey. Rings a bell. I had to "fix" this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6727478/ in order to convince MSVC
If we can write our code in a way that we guarantee it will never go wrong, that's oaky.
Even when it comes to optimization.
Then we simply don't make use of the interface
@Cinch It's still completely pointless.
15:21
We can also optimize this by closing our process and then wrapping it in a nice instruciton of its own
@Puppy Well, say we have a disconnect exception.
@sehe QfT incoming
still pointless.
Now what do we do?
@Columbo what is that
Well, in C++ we'd throw an exception
15:22
@sehe First respond to my earlier message.
nothing, because if one of the streams goes down you can't produce accurate data in your log anymore.
We'd let it bubble up until we need it
@sehe (QfT=Quoted for truth)
therefore the only thing you can do is terminate.
@Puppy Or we can throw an exception or something of the sort
either way we need to error handle
15:22
Second capitalization incorrect, but anyway
I'll call the langauge RL
Is it just VC++ that doesn't let me overload on static with templates, or is it C++?
@Columbo Oh. Well. compatibility. Many libraries assume msvcrt, I think. And c++cli and stuff like that are a thing
in Register-lang (RL), we'd simply control when we do the error checking as it's always open
// Namely
template <typename T, typename = void>
static void f() {}
template <typename T, typename = void, typename = void>
void f() const {}
15:23
The interface above can take care of it and do the error handling
I could just check it, I guess.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Might be C++, as you can access statics through member notation, so it's not that clear-cut
@sehe Ahh
Now, in RL, we can build this error-checking structure so that our code is literally water-tight, kind of like noexcept (i think?)
Forgot that.
15:24
@Puppy Seems like VS since GCC and clang like it.
RL will eventually end up forcing the programmer do consider concurrency and error checking and have it on a global level so that they can modify the concurrency paradigms or execution the way they like
@Columbo I think it wasn't long ago that gcc on widows was pretty lacking. And still exceptions across library boundaries can be pretty annoying when mixing compilers
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's not really conclusive, Clang supports a lot of GNU extensions.
Even better, if we pair it with overwriting instructions, we can encapsulate code and run it as "virtual instructions" as we like in a threaded sandbox
15:25
@Puppy I always compile with those off.
fair enough
@sehe HOLY SHIT VC++ WAS FIRST RELEASED IN 1993
Additionally, we can also choose to abstract one level up or down
As our "global register list" can actually be a child of a larger one
@Jefffrey then you notice there are no numbers
GCC was released, like, about the same fucking time
15:25
Not that it matters anyway. Since VS is being a bitch about it, I can't do it.
@Columbo earlier, I think? Meaning: Quick-C
Hence our structure is recursive and we can choose to delegate our own program to a higher one as we please
Will need to use different names.
@AlexM. That would make you look like a genius, because that means you are seeing the matrix.
If each "process" or "execution" has its own register-frame, we can simply pass the frame instead of limiting ourself to stacks
15:26
How come VC++ ended up being a pile of crap while GCC is... nevermind, that's a pile of crap too
@Cinch this is all very interesting
That way, we cannot "fall-off" of the stack or we can jump from one process to another without stack bias
@Columbo Er, why?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Internally.
I don't know, ECS in C++ sounded like a good idea, but I'm not too sure, anymore.
15:27
In this manner, we do not give precedence to a certain execution line... there is no MAIN, only a starting point.
@Columbo If it doesn't show, I don't care much.
@R.MartinhoFernandes But mainly because Linus Torvalds once said it thus it's true
there's no main, there's just a point where the program is entered.
interesting.
main becomes where we are in the execution process, and error-handling becomes optional, but avaliable
(And people here will also tell you that clang source is crap too)
15:27
@R.MartinhoFernandes It does. It still didn't fucking implement all C++14 features lol
We can choose to throw out the exception system... as this will all result to an abstraction which is in of itself not real
@Columbo What's missing?
@Columbo Well, of course GCC and Clang are superior. The problem lies with the rest of the environment - IDEs and debuggers. IME VS works better (hopefully CLion will improve over time)
But we can give ourselves the tools to handle concurrency in a clean, encapsulated manner
@Columbo GIMPLE representation apparently was yuck
15:28
Ok, the debugger is a point.
Instead of having to use a vtable for exceptions, we can instead just handle it according to our own criteria
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually, hold on - it might have done everything with 5
we build exception handling as just another API or instruction
I was still mentally in the 4.9 series
15:29
and we can choose to opt-in our out
:)
It took much longer than Clang though.
MSVC is so lagging behind with C++ support it's not even funny.
the best part? we can have different exceptions for different code and all have it derived from the same native instruction set
@milleniumbug lololol
the instruction set being required by our language, period.
15:29
Funny for me using Clang Head and shit
hehe
We could say that the language could just be a VM, but we want to push our register-based paradigm on the languages as well
But I'd say that we can reimplement stack-based langauges from a register anyways
@Columbo "much longer" is a few months vOv
@R.MartinhoFernandes A few months in the IT world?
Like, six perhaps?
Or more?
That's an eternity.
I mean, not quite
But the best part is that we're not restricted to pushing and popping and nothing knows of anything unless we tell something exists
Don't give me that crap.
15:31
MSVC is like 6 years.
It's not an eternity.
Anybody listening to me?
You don't want to switch tools every fucking month.
@rightfold What functional language have you enjoyed the most for writing non-text games (please don't be pedantic on this), if any?
@Cinch No.
15:34
@R.MartinhoFernandes The problem with having an ugly internal interface is hard extensibility, unflexibility, and weird convoluted bugs.
@Columbo C++14 was released on December 15, 2015.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yep.
So, yeah, four months.
That's irrelevant.
15:34
@Puppy I'll try write an implementation of my idea
I'll probably crash and burn but that's okay
The proposals that everyone knew were gonna make it were known earlier.
@Columbo Yes, and who cares?
That's why fucking Clang had them when C++14 was released.
You're assuming the reason they didn't work on them was not, say, for example, just prioritisation.
@R.MartinhoFernandes December 15, 2014 perhaps?
15:35
Prejudice, they call it, right?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, they had to sort out the pile of bugs that they got first. They couldn't make it
@JerryCoffin Ooops.
@Columbo Clang has no bugs.
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
Next thing you'll tell me clang's error messages serve you coffee.
hello
15:36
@Columbo You keep assuming your hypothesis and not trying to consider anything else.
@Columbo There's more to work on than bugs.
(Also, GCC, has a much larger scope than clang)
@R.MartinhoFernandes What does that mean?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm just kidding, anyway :P
@Columbo It means it has more stuff to work on.
@Columbo Clang doesn't output assembly code directly.
15:37
@R.MartinhoFernandes We're solely talking about the C++ compiler right now
@Columbo There's a shared infrastructure.
:22882531 No. Clang outputs LLVM IR. LLVM outputs assembly.
@Columbo wow, there's gonna be a gear 4!?
Xeo
Xeo
@JerryCoffin It's "Clang". Small L.
@Xeo Lazy bucky finger syndrome, I assume.
15:39
@StackedCrooked Dude this guy has to entertain the crowd of twelve-year olds who watch this stuf
@Xeo "C-Language"?
:\/
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I've seen too many people write it as "CLang", in the sense of "C Languages" :/
Also pronounce it See-Lang
@Xeo Just a typo in this case though.
@Columbo Anyway, if you had even checked the release notes, you'd see a ton of general optimiser improvements, for example.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I did.
So I find it fucking retarded that you didn't counterflag me calling LRIO an idiot
15:41
It's actually the very first thing listed.
Clang's optimizer is impeccable, though
@Columbo yeah, lol
he's a toxic, provocative person, we've seen that numerous times, he attacked me just a while ago and my message had like 3 stars on it
yet still, I'm getting suspended for it.
"he's a toxic, provocative person"
@R.MartinhoFernandes do you disagree?
15:42
What did you get suspended for, again?
@BartekBanachewicz I quoted it for emphasis.
@R.MartinhoFernandes something like "if you wanted to get rid of the idiot you'd leave"
Aaaaaaaaaaah.
I'll rest my case.
wow, seems it's getting hot in here since I last visited :D
nah, it's just me
I wonder why didn't all the people who starred it get suspended too
15:43
ba dum tsch
it is like a car accident. It is distracting me from my work but I can't help but watch how it all unfolds.
Did they mean they agree with what I wrote? Did they like my message?
Did they find it appropriate?
@BartekBanachewicz We star shit for all sorts of reasons here.
3
You should know that by now.
I star shit for no reason at all!
4
I sometimes star stuff to mock the person who posted it.
Xeo
Xeo
15:44
💩
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, and it all doesn't matter because 10 people from Androidians room might have clicked "valid"
this system is retarded as fuck.
Xeo
Xeo
It's shit. Star it!
I wish my shit would get star'd >.>
@BartekBanachewicz Maybe because that message was... toxic and provocative?
Dunno.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm going to unplonk lrio and flag every message of him I find toxic and/or provocative from now on.
15:45
See, that's toxic.
wouldn't recommend that :D
that should end very well for you
bring it on.
Please don't launch a crusade against another user.
I'm launching a crusade against flagging barteks out of the room
15:46
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's so damn hilarious about that? It's better than GCCs one in many cases, that's for sure. In terms of e.g. branching.
I've mentioned several times how annoying this is
@Columbo Keep repeating that mantra.
I'm toxic, yet I wasn't the first to degenerate into name-calling.
why does everyone use the annoying flag. if you have a problem and the ignore feature isn't enough mod flag.
interesting.
15:46
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, it wasn't. It was accurate and truthful. I realize you like the guy (lord only knows why), but you're letting your emotions get in the way of seeing the truth here.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not. It's the only thing I'm left with to fight with this idiocy
@Columbo And it's worse in many others. Your point being?
@JerryCoffin Those are not orthogonal.
@BartekBanachewicz In general, I don't agree, but since you put it this way... ; )
@R.MartinhoFernandes That the amount of cases where it's better outweighs the ones where it's not, according to my humble experience.
@BartoszKP lol
15:47
@Columbo Nice anecdote, bud.
Also, you said they spent a lot of time on improving optimizers, whereas Clang did not have to and still has a more than sufficient optimization,
Wait
That was nonsense
Anyway, Clang fanboy here and your argument is invalid
> clang fanboy
> compiler fanboy
Better than Haskell fanboy
15:48
no (not that I am one)
Krang fanboys represent?
Haskell gives me the creeps :E
@BartekBanachewicz I thought you retreated
Haskell is nice.
Even if I don't understand it much.
15:51
So, guess who built c++ stuff with success today?
@R.MartinhoFernandes So you're arguments were what again? GCC is behind because it was working on other insignificant improvements some minority of users actually cares about?
@CatPlusPlus ha
Sorry, just not persuasive for me. I'm not a professional user anyway though, so let's end this pointless discussion.
MSVC is the IE6 of the C++ compilers.
8
15:51
@JohanLarsson if you include an awkward definition of "success" it might be plausible
@Columbo lol IRTA retarted
@JohanLarsson int main() { return 0; } success
There can never be a great c++ compiler
@Columbo FWIW, I haven't checked the latest versions but while Clang 3.5 itself is faster than GCC 4.9 itself, code generated by GCC 4.9 seems to perform better or equal in most benchmarks than code generated by clang 3.5.
@deW1 Nope. Doesn't compile unless you remove success
15:53
@R.MartinhoFernandes Source? Or did you do those yourself?
you got me there @AndyProwl
Actually, maybe I can come up with something, if you want to pursue this little debate further
@Columbo Nah, there are many people doing compiler benchmarks out there.
Using gcc.godbolt.org and shit
yeah I feel well enough to get my bike's chain done today
hurr durr
15:54
@Columbo That your assumptions that GCC's support of C++14 four months after the standard was released is merely caused by its crappy source are unfounded.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Also, have you read clang.llvm.org/comparison.html#gcc
@R.MartinhoFernandes I suppose technically that's true--penicillin is also a toxic poison (from the viewpoint of the bacteria). And yes, that is comparing LRiO to a harmful bacteria. That's probably not entirely fair, but fortunately for me, the bacteria probably won't notice how they've been insulted.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, that's true, I take that claim back.
Still its source it a lot worse than Clangs according to some compiler devs out there IIRC
That's not surprising at all vOv
Thank you so much for your great answer!!! — Ruofan Kong 4 mins ago
Hehehe. I agree. Learning Boost Graph from SO questions really works
15:57
The more I try to write the paradigm for the register-based language, the more i feel like i'm writing lisp
@Columbo Anyway, what I've seen is that it's an arms race: each subsequent version of GCC gets faster than clang's latest, and each subsequent version of clang gets faster than GCC's latest, roughly speaking.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Isn't clang more convenient? It has a better interface for developers, from what I hear
Which is nice for both sides.
@Cinch The best thing is that you can use both.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...each of which is sufficient to catch up with what Intel released 5 years before (or so).
@R.MartinhoFernandes Might be the case. (Are you talking about produced code, or the compiler itself? I assume the former?)
15:59
@Columbo Generated code.
for many projects it's more important how fast does it compile, not how fast the compiled code runs

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