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2:00 PM
@LightningRacisinObrit how much do you know surveying?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can reason better about pointer addition when pointers are constrained to pointing to things.
@Cinch lots
 
Birds don't fly into drones. And if they do, well, I guess I would have to modify it in someways
 
> We asked Thomas about the recent incidents on SO but his spokesperson declined any commentary and only provided us with the new dates list for press conferences in May!
 
@chmod711telkitty Yes they do. All the time.
 
Here in Hawaii we use some weird form of surveying lol something like south meridian
 
2:01 PM
@Columbo no
 
@LightningRacisinObrit No, I'm just saying that if you're having pointer arithmetic, you might as well not make it a bastardised form that has a random selection of properties of regular arithmetic (commutativity, really?). All or nothing, I say.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked there's libraries for doing it: gnu.org/software/libjit and github.com/kobalicek/asmjit and llvm.org
 
@LightningRacisinObrit source?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I respectfully disagree.
 
user1804599
Encoding x86-64 instructions is a pain. Use a library.
 
2:01 PM
> etc.
The man has become a bit blasé :/
 
@chmod711telkitty www.theinternet.com
 
@LightningRacisinObrit I'm pleasantly surprised!
 
@sehe Czech your privilege.
 
@rightfold which one (inb4 llvm)
 
Maybe I'll meet you all in person someday
 
2:01 PM
go to unconference
 
user1804599
@sehe no idea.
 
go unconscious
 
user1804599
I only know LLVM.
 
@rightfold If I have a function pointer to a compiled function. Could I then memcpy its instructions into a mmap'd region? It would require knowing the size of the original function.. can this be obtained somehow?
 
@LightningRacisinObrit lolol, you want me to trust the internet >_<
 
user1804599
2:02 PM
@StackedCrooked Sure.
 
I'm in Hawaii. sorry. College students have no money
 
@LightningRacisinObrit You can't because the domain of pointer+ is context-sensitive.
 
@rightfold How do I find out the size?
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked No you can't get the size portably.
 
2:02 PM
@LightningRacisinObrit, Only someone with OCD disorder would comment on that. — Zano 1 hour ago
:(
 
user1804599
I tried that before in my thunk implementation.
 
@StackedCrooked measure it when erect
 
Also, do you guys think there are any other additional programming paradigms in assembly?
 
@chmod711telkitty You implicitly trust mainstream news media more? Or what?
 
I notice that the C-style of thinking is particularly dominant
 
user1804599
2:03 PM
But it failed horribly.
 
@Cinch "in" assembly??
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked AFAIK object files don't store the size, just a blob of all machine code and symbol-offsets pairs.
 
@StackedCrooked No. There's not really any such thing as a "function" at the assembly level and no assurance at all that the ending is marked in any useful way, or even that it exists as a single contiguous stretch of bytes.
 
@Cinch there's hardly any "paradigm" in assembly other than imperative
 
@LightningRacisinObrit telkitty implicitly distrusts any source not hers.
 
2:04 PM
@LightningRacisinObrit do I? p.s. great photoshopping
 
the high-level view of application demands certain structure made
 
@BartekBanachewicz what I meant was that perhaps there's an alternative to "functions" and "variables"
 
> All the while the golden showers that traditionally pour from the Harbour Bridge on New Year's Eve took on a bleaker tone
 
@sbi I actually didn't get one when I logged in. I certainly have a bit of spare time tonight available. We could meet at the Knight Templar which is a pub that I like. I could do from maybe 7 until 10.
 
user1804599
2:05 PM
You can't find the size by analysis either because halting problem.
 
Like what about meta programming?
 
the fuck
@Cinch What about it?
 
@Cinch other than?
 
@Cinch that's hardly a new paradigm.
at least I don't consider it as one
 
@Cinch I wrote OOP code in assembly back in the days of Turbo Pascal 5.5
 
2:05 PM
and it has nothing to do with assembly
that's why it's meta
 
@sehe @BartekBanachewicz I know, but I mean like there might be a different system
 
55 secs ago, by sehe
@Cinch other than?
 
@rightfold I'm already mmapping so portability went away long ago.
 
There have been lisp machines, IIRC.
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
2:06 PM
Like what if we instead treat instructions as modular and even lower level?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what?
 
Something lateral, idk
 
@hehe Lisp machines are such a big 'fuck you' in these discussions, sehe
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked I don't see why you would want to copy an already compiled function to a buffer unless you want to change some of its machine code.
 
@Cinch elaborate. How would that look
 
2:07 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was consciously using it as such
 
For example, say we have a map function at the lowest level
 
@rightfold It's patent pending. I can't reveal why.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit no its not, i get the concept of "a pointer is a thing that points to another thing" ok great, but i dont get making it point to something random is a problem if i dont use the pointer.
whatever
 
And then we have a "move" function
 
user1804599
2:07 PM
If you want to implement thunks, use libffi and check your ABI. (i.e. just add more types to this: github.com/rightfold/baka/blob/master/include/baka/…)
 
Lisp machines are general-purpose computers designed to efficiently run Lisp as their main software language, usually through hardware support. They are an example of a high-level language computer architecture, and in a sense, they were the first commercial single-user workstations. Despite being modest in number (perhaps 7,000 units total as of 1988), Lisp machines commercially pioneered many now-commonplace technologies – including effective garbage collection, laser printing, windowing systems, computer mice, high-resolution bit-mapped graphics, computer graphic rendering, and networkin...
 
Or some sort of instruction
 
@Cinch do explain how you entend to go lowe lever than mnemonics for cpu instructions (more or less)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Forth almost made it, too. (Right? I don’t recall the details.)
 
@Borgleader Because forcing that to be valid puts unreasonable requirements on certain implementations.
Also, would you consider .NET IL or Java bytecode object-oriented (well, at least to the extent one would consider C# or Java object-oriented themselves)?
 
2:09 PM
@Borgleader You just repeated the contradiction. "I get it, but <thing that shows I don't get it>".
You need to think in terms of semantics, not of implementation. C++ is an abstraction.
C++ basically has no concept of RAM or whatever or of numerical addresses in memory.
 
@Borgleader Better: requiring that to be valid puts unreasonable requirements on certain implementations, and provides little benefit.
 
@Borgleader It prevents various hardware traps and other things, so the Standard could not be implemented for those platforms.
and furthermore there's no reason to do it in the first place and therefore no reason to pay that price.
 
lets me get on my computer
 
you're already on your computer
 
@LightningRacisinObrit a pointer is a numeric address of memory. explain.
 
2:11 PM
@BartekBanachewicz have you actually used jsPlumb yourself?
 
@thecoshman yes
 
I'm on my phone
 
@Nisk We're discussing C++ here. For a change.
 
Phone computer
 
@Nisk No, it's not.
 
2:12 PM
@Nisk In C++ a pointer isn't any of that.
 
Ugh let me see...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes When will this room stick to discussing cooking!
 
What I mean is that we can let the program overwrite itself for meta programming
 
Why can't we rename the chatroom to Lounge<Chef>, in honor of the esoteric language
.. that is about cooking
 
@Cinch self-modifying code is a thing not only in assembly
 
2:13 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I want to have two 'source' end points that represent different connections, and ideally just have the the target a element (opposed to a specific target endpoint) but it seem to confuse things...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes do explain how a pointer is not a memory address (or storage of there of), which is a number & consequently how array indexing works then.
 
you can write a program that writes code and executes it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Where?
Okay i'm on
 
@Cinch dunno, JS?
I wrote a programmable game engine in JS for my BEng
 
What I mean is that perhaps we can instead define basic operations a language must have
Instead of definiting langauge constructs or paradigms
 
2:14 PM
@Cinch that's how Scheme was designed
 
@BartekBanachewicz Scheme is functional, though
 
that's also how Lua works to a large extent
@Cinch so?
it's largely irrelevant
 
I have this idea that functional is somehow state-phobic
 
minimal-core, features-as-libraries is a well-known idea
 
@BartekBanachewicz we did it in HC11, on a microcontroller
 
2:15 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Right.
I'm not sure what this idea might be helpful for...
 
@Cinch why don't you learn more about FP then
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't want to.
 
@Cinch making languages more flexible, obviously.
 
@Nisk It isn't that, by definition. What else do I have to explain?
 
I'm learning C++ (or rather just lazing around until finals, really)
 
2:16 PM
@Cinch you have to realize that you talking about it without really understanding it is a bit silly
 
@BartekBanachewicz Meh. I don't know if flexible is really what we need
 
@Cinch You don't know a lot of other things. Your point?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well I'll attempt to flesh it out with the help of Lounge
 
@Cinch I humbly suggest you constrain your "new" ideas until you learn about existing ones then.
 
@Nisk Array indexing works not that way either, also by definition.
 
2:17 PM
A lot of things you have in mind have already been thought of, proposed, implemented and buried away.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I want to have my fun little mental exercise! :)
 
> If the pointer operand points to an element of an array object, and the array is large enough, the result points to an element offset from the original element such that the difference of the subscripts of the resulting and original array elements equals the integral expression. (from the definition of the + operator)
 
@Cinch oh surely. But bounce that off Wikipedia first, Lounge second.
 
@Nisk Everything is in the C++ standard.
 
Note how there's no mention of "addresses", nor "numbers" (except for the one number involved, the index)
 
2:18 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Hm, okay...
 
don't worry, I'm doing it constantly too :)
 
Say we have a mini virtual machine with the op codes for mov, add, sub, div, and multiply
There are 5 op codes
 
Once in a lifetime you might actually discover something original. In reality you need to know a lot beforehand though.
 
Say we instead intend to pass data as the opcode instead. This is not a new idea
 
@LightningRacisinObrit Why the assumption :( I was making sure that the other commenter got your joke. I'm pretty sure he didn't make that joke on purpose
 
2:19 PM
@Cinch do you need multiply if you have add?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes right. It's a fucking memory address (to a type). The reason it's called pointer arithmetic is because it is a fucking number.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No. Fine we have bit shift.
 
@sehe It was his joke that you completely missed. He wrote "OCD disorder" deliberately. Did you see the previous comments in the thread?
 
@Cinch you also need cmp and jmp probably.
 
@Nisk No, it's not a memory address to a type. Still by definition.
 
2:20 PM
@BartekBanachewicz mmm, yeah something of that form
 
So, no need to point his own joke out to him.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit Ah. Now I do seeh
 
"the vector can easily fit" - no it can't. Assuming 4 bytes per int, the final array will be 2^37 bytes, or 128GB. Then you multiply by sizeof(int) for some mysterious reason, so you're actually trying to allocate 512GB. By not reserving enough capacity first, you're might need twice as much memory due to fragmentation. So it should easily fit into 1TB, but not 96GB. — Mike Seymour 2 hours ago
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes fuck definitions, underneath that's what it is.
 
2:20 PM
@Nisk Or not!
 
@sehe Don't feel too bad; the first draft of my own comment made a similar mistake :P
 
Let's assume that all commands will be of the form OPCODE|ARG1|ARG2
 
@Nisk It always isn't.
 
@Nisk It could be a string as far as C++ standard is concerned.
 
How can you argue that something isn't what it is defined to be?
 
2:20 PM
@Nisk not really, no.
 
@Nisk In some machines it's actually two integers!
 
@Nisk in my implementation it's a pony.
 
@milleniumbug still a memory address to the start of the string
 
If we have a fixed-size instruction set for our language, we should be able to swap in and out different operations at different times.
 
2:21 PM
@Nisk Pointers. Are. Not. Numbers.
@Nisk No matter how many times you claim the opposite, you will still be wrong.
 
(Technically a pair of integers is a number, but I'm assuming you mean "number" here as a some kind of integer or at least some kind of scalar)
 
Hence, we can overwrite operations easily using data
 
@Cinch incidentally that's what defining a function does.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, but we change the behavior of our function
 
@LightningRacisinObrit then the pointer arithmetic I do in C is even more amazing.
 
2:22 PM
On many systems pointers are implemented as numbers, which is a totally different thing.
 
We decompose functions to the most basic labels or operations
 
@Nisk And almost certainly has undefined behaviour from the sound of it.
 
^ this
 
@Cinch by replacing it with a different function?
 
@LightningRacisinObrit hardly.
 
2:22 PM
Which is fine when you're targeting a specific implementation
 
@BartekBanachewicz But we're talking the lowest level of functions
 
@Nisk "Pointer arithmetic" is defined in a way that doesn't involve numbers (except for the index, obviously). It works not by virtue of pointers being numbers, which they are not. It works by virtue of being defined in terms of arrays and array indices.
 
For example, say we have a function at a piece of memory
 
@Cinch irrelevant what level that's on really.
 
Apparently you are too stupid to comprehend the basic difference between specification and implementation so I shall simply plonk you now and move on to someone smarter.
 
2:22 PM
assembly just brings in silly implementation details
 
Given a certain data space for a function, we will overwrite our opcodes and locations as needed in the same space
If we have two functions that continuously call each other, we can have the functions both overwrite the other in small increments
 
@Cinch doesn't matter how it's done. Replacing a variable holding a function has the same effect.
@Cinch you can even do that with one function vOv
 
@BartekBanachewicz The idea is that the format should be portable enough to prove as dynamic
 
@Cinch this sentence doesn't make sense.
 
@BartekBanachewicz For example:
 
2:24 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes and magic fairy dust. Cause that's how cpus work too.
 
say we have a func instruction
 
@Nisk C++ doesn't always run on CPUs. Actually, it never does (but only because of historical reasons).
 
It will have two arguments, the number of arguments and the space of memory it is held at
 
@Cinch say we're in JS and we have function
 
If p points to the ith element of an array, p+N points to the (i+N)th element. That's how pointer arithmetic is defined.
 
2:25 PM
When it jumps to the space, it will immediately read in the arguments until it reaches the required arguments
 
That doesn't require pointers to be integers nor anything in any way remotely equivalent to them.
 
and then, it will perform the next operations as required
 
C++ is an abstraction.
Why do some people find this so difficult to understand?
 
@Cinch that's how p much every function in every language works
 
@BartekBanachewicz Right?
Except we try to define more flexible instructions
 
2:26 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes eh no, pointer points to the first element's memory address of the array, that's why adding an index to it, points to the subsequent elements.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit C++ is love, C++ is life.
 
@Nisk Also, argument by "works on my machine" is a terrible fallacy, and any respectable software developer should be able to realise that.
 
@Cinch there's nothing "more flexible" in it.
 
i.e., let's have a "pack" instruction to draw out data from a structure
 
I didn't even target portability yet, aside from a few size_t/unsigned int mistakes on my part (like, three of them across the entire codebase), my code was ported to another architecture just like that :)
 
2:27 PM
if you have FCFs, you can replace functionality at runtime
 
@LightningRacisinObrit it's a tool, to generate machine instructions, because humans can't - at scale.
 
@Nisk C++ pointers are not memory addresses. In fact, on my C++-to-python compiler I'll write, they will be implemented as strings.
 
Because I know that C++ is an abstraction and I write it accoridngly.
@Nisk No. It is not. At all. Whatsoever.
@Nisk That's what your particular C++ compiler is.
 
@milleniumbug making the barrier from fast to slow - doing it right, I see.
 
@Nisk I just posted to you the definition of + above. You can ignore the definition of + all you want when discussing + but it makes you look like a fool.
 
2:27 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Don't know that acronym
 
@Cinch First-Class Functions
 
@LightningRacisinObrit that's the only virtue c++ has.
 
which is short for "Functions as First-Class objects"
 
@BartekBanachewicz But can we treat functions as a structure on the bitwise level?
 
2:28 PM
@Cinch irrelevant.
 
@Nisk In some actual concrete, real-world, mass-produced machines, pointers have to implemented as pairs of integers.
 
@Nisk You're just moving goalposts.
 
No offence, @Nisk, but people like you are going to destroy our industry one day. You already cost it substantial amounts of wasted money.
2
 
@BartekBanachewicz But this means we can cast data to functions
 
@Cinch do you know what eval does in JS?
 
2:28 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Hm, okay.
But what about on a native level?
 
works in the same way, sans silly hardware details and OSes
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok I think I see your point, I'm just curious as to what these implementations are? (The ones on which it would put unreasonable requirements that is)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ah gee...
 
@Borgleader The ones that have trap values.
 
@Cinch ever heard about JIT interpreters?
 
2:29 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yes.
 
@Cinch so what they're doing is native code generation in runtime.
 
I don't get how they're "JIT" if interpreting takes longer than executing
 
@Borgleader In some architectures loading certain special values into registers trigger hardware exceptions or some such.
 
@Cinch They're done Just in Time to be executed.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit lol said as if you know the slightest bit about what kind of coder, or even more so - a person. Harsh.
 
2:30 PM
@ShotgunNinja Yeah but how do they even coordinate that?
 
You know when you're running late for something, and there's something you're waiting on, and it's done "Just in Time" for you to get out the door and not die/get fired/miss the door? It's kinda like that.
 
@Cinch with magic clever perf observations
 
@Borgleader So compilers will always make sure the addresses of all array elements (and one-past-the-end) are not one of those special values, but they don't try to make guarantees about any other addresses.
 
user1804599
Implement me a JIT-compiler.
 
say, "oh, this function is executed for the 1000th time, perhaps I could turn it into native code"
 
2:31 PM
@BartekBanachewicz is just me, or is the 'documentation' for jsPlumb really lacking examples.... take this page on conenctors for example, no mention at all on how to build the object you pass in to actually set the style :\
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah but how?
 
@Nisk He does know the slightest bit about what kind of coder you are: the kind that believes pointers are numbers and the kind that stubbornly pretends things are not what they are defined to be.
5
 
I get the interpreting part and compiling
I don't know how they organize it and lock the code and etc etc but w/e
 
@Nisk So, not harsh at all.
 
@Cinch google for "how to write a jit compiler"
 
2:32 PM
yesterday, by Luc Danton
u r so 1337
 
@thecoshman a tad. I think the style options are listed somewhere.
 
user1804599
@Cinch I did it once!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Thanks
 
What's a good technical/programming-y word for "non empty"
 
@Prismatic empty in what sense?
 
2:34 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think it considers the type of line that is drawn 'style'...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you're arguing over definitions, even those pair of integers have to resolve to a fucking memory address, be they strings or whatever.
 
@Prismatic is it a collection?
 
@Prismatic "not null"
 
@thecoshman beh it's there somewhere.
 
user1804599
2:34 PM
That was the old horrible code I deleted when I rewrote the VM.
 
@thecoshman that's different
 
@Nisk C++ language is all about definitions.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, its an aggragate of multiple types
 
@Nisk No, you are the one arguing against the definition. It's not like there are two competing definitions.
 
@Nisk nah, not really.
 
2:34 PM
@rightfold Interesting
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes things are what they are, you can paint and colo(u)r them all you want in your definitions.
 
@Nisk Yes, and pointers in C++ are not numbers.
 
If you can't mix abstraction levels, stop doing programming until you can.
 
And C++ compilers will treat C++ pointers as C++ pointers, not as Nisk pointers.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm ok, I'll have to look up what those are used/useful for.
 
2:35 PM
@Nisk I suppose you're failing to understand the difference between C++ standard and C++ program runtime enviroment or particular compiler implementation.
@Prismatic I'd keep it as "not empty"
 
I'll enjoy the Schadenfreude when you are debugging some infinite loop or whatever because your assumptions turned out to differ from the compiler's assumptions.
 
*(this-1)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Interesting
I didn't know C could allocate executable memory
 
@Nisk You cannot trust the compiler to follow the definition of the language the compiler purports to compile, how in hell can you program?
 
Oh wait, it's not C. It's Unix.
 
2:37 PM
@BartekBanachewicz "failing to understand" - said as if it's some kind of intellectual achievement to read through it.
 
Wait, that's an easy one. "(...) how in hell can you program?" In hell.
 
@Nisk apparently it is
 
(actually UB if the object is not part of an array, and the position of the object is not 1 or more.)
 
@milleniumbug oh right yeah... well depends what he means by 'empty' :P I wasn't reading
 
@BartekBanachewicz you wish.
 
2:37 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes A fate worse than Hell++!
 
@Cinch How else would you implement JITs?
 
@Puppy I didn't know until now.
...
How do JITs check for malicious code?
 
@Nisk you're a walking example (unless you're on a wheelchair) that people can and do fail at reading through it
 
Why would you make that parenthetical?
FFS.
 
¬_¬ helps if spell shit correctly
 
2:39 PM
That's so mean.
 
user1804599
Don't execute malicious code.
 
user1804599
You're doomed whether you JIT it or not.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I didn't mean
 
@BartekBanachewicz not having bothered is not the same as failing.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I know you didn't. But someone that would feel bad with "you're a walking example" for being in a wheelchair would feel even worse by you actively pointing it out.
 
2:39 PM
@Nisk no observable differences from my standpoint
 
@BartekBanachewicz what a tremendously high point you must imagine that to be.
 
@rightfold I don't even know what malicious even is
 
Why doesn't C++ support full dependent typing again?
 
@Nisk I'm just meekly listenting to what you're saying here
 
@Cinch Well, you're compiling the code, so you can just check it as you go.
 
2:40 PM
@Jefffrey because, uh, it doesn't?
 
user1804599
Here's a JIT-compiler! :3 github.com/mill-lang/mill/blob/…
 
@Puppy No but I don't even know what types of code are malicious lol
 
Why doesn't Askhell?
 
@Nisk if you haven't bothered to read up about something, shut the fuck up about it.
6
 
oh glory
 
2:41 PM
@rightfold block meaning a statement/execution?
 
I wish people did abide this heartful advice
 
user1804599
@Cinch what do you mean?
 
@rightfold I'm trying to decode what you mean
 
@Nisk Or they don't have to. You seem to think compilers will blindly translate your code into the equivalent machine code instructions one-by-one. They don't. Sometimes they will twist and turn your code until it is no longer recognisable, and yet still does what the C++ standard says it must do.
 
user1804599
It compiles bytecode, not Mill code.
 
2:42 PM
@Cinch JITs can't recognise intentions.
 
user1804599
 
@rightfold ...
 
user1804599
They operate on an implicit operand stack.
 
user1804599
This is similar to how .NET and Java work.
 
@StackedCrooked You're really gonna love Gear 4
 
2:43 PM
@rightfold implicit operand stack?
 
If you make more assumptions then the C++ standard allows, you are bound to run into trouble when your compiler transforms your code into something that is equivalent as far as the C++ standard (and by extension the compiler) is concerned, but is not equivalent as far as you think.
 
does that mean that the operands are pushed onto the stack?
 
Hey! Does anybody in here know Boost? I am having trouble creating a Global Logger with Boost and am hopeful that someone (ANYONE!) may be able to help. My question is here: stackoverflow.com/q/29785243/1735836
 
@Lucy inb4 bin
 
85
Q: Why does integer overflow on x86 with GCC cause an infinite loop?

MysticialThe following code goes into an infinite loop on GCC: #include <iostream> using namespace std; int main(){ int i = 0x10000000; int c = 0; do{ c++; i += i; cout << i << endl; }while (i > 0); cout << c << endl; return 0; } So here's the deal: Si...

 
user1804599
2:45 PM
@Cinch Yes.
 
@rightfold I see.
 
user1804599
And the operations then pop them off the stack and push results onto the stack again.
 
@Nisk See above. Just an example of where thinking something is not what C++ says it is leads to "seemingly" nonsensical compiler behaviour. I don't have a specific one for this particular scenario, but this should give you an idea of why you should give more weight to the real definitions than to your own made up ones.
 
user1804599
23
Q: What is an operand stack?

Abhijeet PanwarI am reading about JVM architecture. Today I read about the concept of the Operand Stack. According to an article: The operand stack is used during the execution of byte code instructions in a similar way that general-purpose registers are used in a native CPU. I can't understand: What ex...

 
I'm wondering what would happen if we push operands into memory instead
 
2:45 PM
whoops, late
 
user1804599
The stack is in memory. :v
 
@rightfold Oh my god.
Wait I must be rediscovering register-based language
 
Where did you think it was???
Buried under rocks?
 
@rightfold nah man, of load that to disk, no point wasting memory with a huge stack
 
user1804599
2:47 PM
@Cinch it may be more clear from the interpreter: github.com/mill-lang/mill/blob/develop/mill/src/interpret.tpp
 
user1804599
It's not register-based, although there are slots for local variables (which can be more convenient than the operand stack in some cases).
 
user1804599
I haven't implemented local variables yet, though.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes made up ones? lol
 
mixing abstraction levels doesn't help
 
@rightfold Oh what I meant was that I could define a common register instead
 
2:48 PM
@Nisk Isn't your definition something you made from observing a few examples yourself?
 
And give execution strings the ability to lock etc etc
 
Or did you get it from somewhere else?
 
@Nisk where did you get your definition from?
 
Next time I'm interviewing people and not desperate for staff, my first question is going to be "what are pointers"? And if they say anything remotely like @Nisk, they're not getting the job.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes in that sense yes. A working definition mind you. @BartekBanachewicz from working in C/CUDA and pen-testing.
 
2:49 PM
Thank you for reminding me of a useful benchmark in the search for competent developers with just the tiniest bit of imagination.
 
i.e. say I have 8 registers. These are used to pass from execution to execution, like (volatile?) variables
 
user1804599
also aaaaa i must restore the operand stack on exception catch ;_;
 
@LightningRacisinObrit lol good luck in your prejudiced endeavors.
 
u wot
well, yes, I am prejudiced against imbeciles
 
We could say that I run 2 threads that make use of two registers each and then have their own local space, like a stack
 
2:50 PM
@Nisk Well, you have been provided proofs, argumentations and rationales, And yet you are dismissing them all as "lol", "you wish", "whatever", "prejudiced". You're clearly toxic.
4
 
@Nisk you do realize that on different implementations your observations don't need to hold, eh?
 
@Nisk Well, then we can get general: it's not a good idea to hold on to a working definition once you become aware of a true definition.
 
user1804599
Register-based languages are more difficult to generate code for and interpret code from.
 
@Nisk you yelled at me in another room
therefore I don't like you
 
2:51 PM
@rightfold Well, I could create instructions to do this for you
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
For example, I have a conditional mutex block created from cmp and jmp
 
user1804599
Why'd you make everything so complicated?
 
@milleniumbug you wish
 
user1804599
Just have every thread have its own register set.
 
2:51 PM
@Nisk Your attitude is akin to concluding that all odd numbers are primes because you observed that 3, 5, and 7 are primes.
 
@rightfold But then handling errors becomes easier
 
If T1 fails to return, it dumps to it's own allocated register space
 
You observed pointers behaving like numbers in certain occasions, therefore any definition that defies that they are numbers always is untenable.
 
i.e. say we have 16 registers
 
2:52 PM
OMG I'VE BEEN USING THE WRONG FUNCTION
 
@Cinch What does that mean?
 
user1804599
Don't make everything so complicated.
 
user1804599
Keep it simple.
 
@Lucy it's a joke
 
2:52 PM
@Lucy that your question is unfit here
 
@rightfold But wouldn't this be better for concurrency?
 
3 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
typename I instead of int I.
 
user1804599
No.
 
@Cinch are you asking?
 
2:53 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pretty much.
 
Why would that be better?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes eh no. More like sooner or later, whichever crazy way you want to represent your pointer - it has to resolve to a memory address.
 
user1804599
If you want to be good for concurrency, do less sharing, not more.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's a clean API we can make use of globally
 
@Nisk No, it actually doesn't!
 
2:53 PM
@Nisk except no
 
@Nisk It doesn't even have to exist as a pointer.
11 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Nisk Or they don't have to. You seem to think compilers will blindly translate your code into the equivalent machine code instructions one-by-one. They don't. Sometimes they will twist and turn your code until it is no longer recognisable, and yet still does what the C++ standard says it must do.
I won't repeat any more arguments.
 
user1804599
The Mill interpreter, for example, doesn't give a single shit about threads, since all its state is local.
 
your "has to" is completely unbased
 
Consider yourself soft-plonked.
 
OK, It might not be C++ specific but I was hoping that since Boost is C++ that someone with C++ experience might know how to do this.
 
2:54 PM
or rather, it's based with anectodal evidence
 
For example, we have T1 run with 8 registers. We allocate the space and then we don't care
 
Thanks, anyways!
 
@Lucy don't use globals vOv
 
user1804599
Give each thread its own registers.
 
@rightfold I just said I would
 
user1804599
2:54 PM
Good boy.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit that kinda sucks
 
sbi
@Puppy Fine. I found it on the map. I'll leave the hotel approx. 6:50, assuming it will take me 10-20mins to get to the Templar I should be there between 7-7:10.
See you then!
 
Let's say that instead, each instruction runs its own register block
 
@sbi Ein Eszett bis zwanzig Minuten.
 
Each instruction's input and output will be black-boxed. Simple as that.
 
2:55 PM
@sbi sounds good
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes :-ß
 
user1804599
I need an algorithm to compute the max stack size a subroutine will use.
 
We can reserve register 1 and 2 for operands
3 and 4 for control
 
mmm I feel a tad better today
 
5 and 6 for exceptions
 
sbi
2:56 PM
hastens to talk about atomics
 
maybe I'll be able to service my bike finally
 
and 7 and 8 for concurrency
 
@rightfold why?
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's not a global variable! It's a global logger that can be called from anywhere in the application without having to be passed around. It's pretty cool! Now, if I could just get the severity working....it would be great! :-)
 
assert(0 && "Replacing with the same buffer"); // Why why why
 
2:56 PM
@Cinch Because people throw exceptions as often as they add integers.
 
I hate this
 
@Lucy What's cool in a global variable?
 
user1804599
@Puppy so the interpreter can tell how much operand stack to allocate beforehand.
 
@Puppy It doesn't have to be exceptions
 
user1804599
So I can reserve vector.
 
user1804599
2:57 PM
Java class files store it, so it's possible to compute it.
 
Pretend we have a line. This is our program.
 
if you don't offer alloca() then you can just search the execution space.
 
Except our program is not a line. It's tangled hair.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Are you teasing me? It's not a global variable. It's a global logger. :-)
 
It's messy, chaotic, and etc etc
It branches, it's messy.
 
2:57 PM
@Lucy what's the difference?
 
user1804599
It's not possible to compute it from arbitrary bytecode, of course (imagine loop with runtime bound that pushes integers but never pops), but it is possible to compute it from Mill code.
 
Our program is not tangled hair
Our program is organic tangled hair
It grows new branches based on its execution etc etc etc
So what do?
We conceptualize all of our operations as individual atomic operations, first.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no I don't think that. I'm thinking that at instruction level it's all just memory, hence it has to resolve to a memory address. Else your code wouldn't work.
 
what the fuck is going on here
 
@Nisk Yes, but pointers are not at that level. That is a fundamental mistake.
 
2:59 PM
@BartekBanachewicz One may want a global logger to log all issues without having to pass the logger around. I hate global variables.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What levels are pointers at? Virtual memory?
 
@Lucy Huh, your avatar was my wallpaper for a while. Well, horizontally flipped and with slightly different colours, but basically the same pic.
 
So if I continue
 
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Lucy what's the difference?
 

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