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10:00 PM
For me it's important to separate in order for beginners to understand why it's necessary to separate the two.
 
@sehe Face it, you're the only human on Earth that uses Spirit.
 
Yeah. Personally, I wouldn't bother with decl/def until function prototypes. And perhaps forward declared classes
 
Lol, nasty bangs from speaker stack. Mixer guy turns into a human spider, crawling around the stage trying to find the bad cable/connector:)
 
@sehe I'm going to do Hello World after objects lol.
 
@sehe I'm not saying he should try to go into the difference between the two--I'm just saying where he has a definition, he should call it a definition.
 
10:01 PM
And then I'm going to jump into function objects as a primitive? idk
 
> objects
<me: runs away/>
 
Yeah objects are pretty necessary to understanding the iostream as a whole
 
You know. Integers are objects too. As are integer arrays.
 
Integers are data primitives and are not objects
I mean, they are but they have no functions inherent to them
They're just... data
 
@Cinch classes (or maybe, types). Not objects. You'll feed right into the eternal Java-esque misconceptions about "object orientation"
 
10:03 PM
What do you mean?
I thought basic data types are literally basic data, formatted in binary, unhindered with functions attached to them and constructors and destructors
 
@Cinch No statics. [no. of languages] multitons.
 
@MartinJames Statics?
What statics
 
@Cinch In C and C++, "object" has a very precise definition. While I wouldn't propose that you try to include that definition in a tutorial (especially for beginners) you also shouldn't make statements (as you just have) that directly contradict that definition.
 
@Cinch So. They are not behaviours. But they're still objects. Clearly.
 
@sehe I don't understand.
I mean they're objects in the sense that you interact with them and that you can extend the OOP mentality to everything but that's Java and not C++
 
10:05 PM
@Cinch They're not formatted in binary. That's a property of the executing machine. The virtual machine that C++ is dealing with doesn't need any of that
 
Enlighten me?
 
> the OOP mentality
uhoh
 
@Cinch As the term is defined in C (and the same definition is used in C++) an "object" is basically anything that gets stored in memory, including variables of primitive types such as int and char.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh, well okay.
If that's the formal definition
 
@sehe you know, bullshit vOv
 
10:06 PM
Mental clue: things that have an address and that you can legally offset into without invoking UB
 
But I mean the "buzz" is on OOP with Java and stuff so I feel that it would be better to teach them objects as in OOP
And not with bank accounts or stuff
 
@sehe ...other than the minor detail that C (since C99) and C++ (since C++11) specify that only three formats (all binary) are allowed for integer types.
 
@JerryCoffin = What are they?
Regular, ones complements, and twos complements?
 
'objects as in OOP' o_0 what does that mean?
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. I realize this. But then I raise you the as-if :)
 
10:07 PM
@thecoshman Objects as in the Java sense since it's so popular and useful as real programming methodology
 
@Cinch "regular"? Hmm...one's complement, two's complement and signed magnitude.
 
I meant: he shouldn't conflate machine architecture with programming language abstractions
 
@Cinch the only thing Java does special about 'objects' is that (more or less) everything has to be one.
 
@Cinch Yup. Precisely what I sensed
 
that and a load of crap on top
 
10:08 PM
@sehe Fair enough (and in fact, I completely agree with the basic point).
 
ffs ¬_¬ the shit that gets starred
 
> so useful as real programming methodology
 
@sehe Basically, I am trying to learn Boost::Spirit. Lucky me, I found a lot of your nice answers on Stackoverflow. Especially your Gist (gist.github.com/sehe/3886058) is such a great example! So, you helped me out a lot already before I found you here fortunately :D
 
My SchoolFactoryFactory begs to differ.
 
@Blob My event queue-based program begs to differ
Do you know how many times I refactored my OOP code before I found the correct patterns?
 
10:09 PM
and my Intersector.Intersect(Point p1, Point p2) does too
 
@andrew I actual feel flattered. And yes, I use Spirit a lot. But admittedly most on SO, because ... well. I have a thing with it
 
@Blob That's your fault and not OOP's
Just like how bad C++ is not all C++'s fat. (yes, fat)
 
@Cinch Your event queue doesn't require Integer to be an "object" behavioral type classifier
 
@Cinch that's java's fault for forcing everything to be in objects even if it makes no sense to make it one
 
@Blob Java's modular programming style inherent with objects can be useful for organization and debugging
Imagine NOT having OOP.
Then we go back to:
 
10:10 PM
Imagine optionally having OOP wherever you want and nowhere else :D
 
> Monster* createNewMonster(Monster*, MonsterFactory*, char*, int, int, struct stats, FILE*)
 
@Blob you mean "new IntersectorBuilderFactory().getIntersectorBuilder().startIntersectionCalculation‌​Builder().addIntersector(p1).addIntersector(p2).buildIntersection().getInteresect‌​ionData()"
 
@Blob Yeah OOP is not the best case in a LOT of circumstances
 
@Cinch ?! that's more OOP-y than I care to see in a week
 
@Blob C++ was invented for a reason.
But then:
 
10:12 PM
@Cinch sure, Java does make some things easy... but it puts so much bullshit in the way.
 
function integrate(function*);
 
@thecoshman this isn't even that ridiculous an example :'(
 
This is where functional makes sense
 
@Cinch Anyways. I think you strawmanned yourself. You're not arguing everything should be an object.
@Cinch I wonder what makes you say this. (To me, specifically)
 
@sehe Oops wrong person
 
10:13 PM
@Cinch what's that lone asterisk doing there
 
Something something pass by reference not allowed in C
 
@thecoshman poor pirate, responding to himself
 
But to continue, I think it would be best to do:
 
@Cinch What has C got to do with functional ? (you ... don't think "procedural" is "functional", I suppose?)
 
@sehe only furthers my point :\
 
10:14 PM
@sehe Functional is kind of the opposite of OOP's mentality
 
@Cinch not really...
 
No, functional as in Haskell
 
There is no opposite. And, functional wouldn't be close
 
Well I mean OOP focuses on state
Functional focuses on ignoring state
 
@Cinch not really...
 
10:15 PM
@Cinch Which is why I wondered about the asterisk
 
OOP is focused on objects doing things
 
> ignoring state
 
Functional is focused on doing things to data
 
Well. There we go.
@Cinch Somewhat better
 
@Cinch no, programming is doing things to data
 
10:16 PM
I would call minimalist programming the art of ignoring state.
 
@sehe Well isn't that what immutability is based on? Ignoring state or trying to keep accessing state is what holds OOP multithreading back
I mean locks mutexes semaphores threads fibers....
Functional is pretty modular in function which makes scaling easier, correct?
 
functional programming is about avoiding side effects. things don't 'just change'
 
@thecoshman Yeah, this.
Whatever I'm writing a C++ tutorial, not one on Haskell
 
Gosh. So many unrelated things. You've heard of many a thing. I applaud you for that.
But you should probably not respond to reasoned arguments by waving a computer science glossary. I think it is getting in the way of actual discussion.
 
oop is about embracing that shit needs to change for it to be worthwhile and hiding that behind abstractions... well... that's not a good way of saying it.
 
10:18 PM
@sehe welp, that's why I'm here
I need to be called out on bullshit and actually learn something
 
@Cinch Which is why you don't need to gloss over the fact that integers are objects and stamp "class based OOP" on it :)
 
@sehe Yeah idk why I got stuck on that point in the first place
Anyways I think the tutorial will continue like this:
 
@Cinch Why are you writing a tutorial? What is your goal?
 
data types -> functions -> objects -> iostream -> Hello World -> files -> file I/O
@khajvah The goal is to 1) provide a good resource for new C++ programmers and 2) learn more myself
People think I'm full of shit but the fact is that I don't know much and I want to know more
People often learn well when they need to teach stuff themselves so it's an exercise that benefits everyone.
Anyways I gotta go I have circuits class
 
imo you either learn abstract programming, or you learn a programming language. learning both together is just making it harder than it needs to be.
 
10:21 PM
@thecoshman Meh I'll learn it as I make projects for the tutorials
 
functional programming really is a good way to start shit. People are for the most part happy with maths, and functional programming, at a basic level, is very much like that.
 
@thecoshman what you mean by abstract programming?
 
@thecoshman I agree but meh. I'm writing and doing C++.
 
it's very easy for people to get that x = x + 1 doesn't make sense, as x can't be two values at once.
 
@thecoshman Which is why I stressed that "=" be read as "is now" instead of "equals"
 
10:22 PM
@khajvah the concepts without getting hung up on one languages way of doing things
 
anyways gotta go
bye
 
@Cinch oh sure, on top of learning a hole load of new things, just tell them everything they have learnt in maths so far is both wrong and right
 
Fuck OOP haters.
 
Yeah! Haters gonna hate, potatoes gonna potate!
 
@Cinch i'd probably introduce structs (as in: aggregates; - in your words: just data). Then operators (e.g. operator<, operator<< for that struct), then hello world (I'd probably mesh hello world in front just to get a simple test program going. You can discuss compilation model, program invocation a bit more usefully when there's actually something you can feed the compiler)
 
10:24 PM
@thecoshman I can't agree with that. Many people get into programming because they can do "cool stuff". You can't attract new people just with concepts
 
How did you guys get into programming?
 
@thecoshman look at how our pirate has grown up!
 
@sehe excuse whilst I go make fart noises <brrrp>
 
@Cinch but it makes a little bit more sense to say assign "x+1" to "x". Gives you "x+1 = x; is illegal nonsensical" for free (intuitive lvalue/rvalue foundation)
 
@Nooble Fuck that too. I want chips later.
 
10:27 PM
it's easier to hide mutability until later
 
@MartinJames Those potatoes died for your enjoyment.
 
x =1; y = x+1; <-- and for now kids, that's just how we do it.
 
Aw, Snap!

There was an error migrating web-windows to GitHub.
 
@thecoshman Yup. Together with void main() { int a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h /*...*/; no doubt :)
 
10:28 PM
¬_¬ thanks google
very good job.
 
@Xeo CobolOnStroller
@thecoshman hate on github now!
 
@sehe along with teaching them to organise shit to keep it easy to understand
 
too late now
@Nooble More importantly, how do we get out?!
 
@sehe Through death.
 
@Cinch IME it's more important to describe what actually happens, than to teach pupils to "repeat after me" - They should be able to form their own understanding and come up with the "words" they're most comfortable with.
(mind you, this need not even be human language, akin to how people learn abstract things in general, and twins develop a "private language" when growing up together)
I actually did this with my 9y/o daughter this week. She had the ambition to have her classroom presentation about "The Universe". She and I "didn't know zilch" about it.
We had two large sessions in which we binged the Wikipedia Astronomy Portal and generally explained to each other what we know thought we understood. We continuously corrected our own "verbal models" of this. And in the end, I'm confident that she would have been able to comfortably handle more complicated questions - should anyone have asked.
 
10:36 PM
WTF is teh upload button on this mobile shit?
 
Who says it exists
 
@MartinJames For uploading images.
 
Fuck it, I'll post later from an actual computer.
 
@Nooble hint: teh = not tao and "WTF" is where the fiddle
 
@MartinJames You can switch to desktop UI.
@sehe :P
 
10:40 PM
@sehe cool :)
 
Yeah. I suppose this is the part where people say they're proud
(also, when she "tried out" the presentation on me, she surprised me by adding some vivid details along the way. Things as, not just naming the planets in our solar system while pointing at the picture, but describing things ("you can't live there because there's an acid rain of sulfur from orange clouds there all the time")).
 
@sehe ooh careful there, she might turn into... a manager!
 
I mean, we never even made an effort to memorize shit. Just by repeatedly painting the picture ("ah so the inner planets are all the rocky ones!", and "the outer planets are much further apart and a lot bigger. It must be cold there") things stuck
@thecoshman ?
 
@sehe being all good with presentations :P
 
That's a strange positive connotation with the word "manager"
 
10:43 PM
I also just realised that she probably has a much better grasp of english than I :(
 
@thecoshman Not with presentations, with presenting. And especially with applying knowledge
@thecoshman Not at all. I translated that. Just to be bleedingly obvious
Somehow she didn't quite spark the interest for english yet.
 
@sehe I figured, but my point still stands :\
 
lol
 
don't y'all start at like 4 teaching English?
 
She sees me using it all the time. And she realized that needing me to translate the more interesting WP articles was a handicap
@thecoshman rarely
 
10:44 PM
huh...
@sehe still, cool to hear about daddy daughter bonding :)
 
I don't think we even have any teachers of that age
 
@thecoshman You're thinking of Belgium. In the Netherlands, they don't start polluting children's minds with English until they're at least 6 (and sometimes as a late as 7).
 
@thecoshman it was cool for me, because I never meddled with astronomy, and it turns out to be this wonderful world of interestingness. I love when things are fantastic and relevant (so, not actually fantasy)
@JerryCoffin 9 and counting
 
@MartinJames one of those your fault?
 
10:47 PM
we actually need inception for language learning - just sleep in a chain & in 8 hours time, you'll have all the things you need to speak a specific language
 
@sehe Shhh....no facts allowed here.
 
@JerryCoffin is that a fact?
 
@chmod711telkitty derp. We're already born with all the things to speak a specific language. We just need "more flight hours"
 
@thecoshman Magic 8 ball says: "Outlook not so good".
 
"Ask again later"
 
10:50 PM
ergh... serial downvoting :|
who did I upset?
 
Not me. Fun fact: Koalas are never upset.
 
@sehe Just for what it's worth: "meddled" usually carries a negative connotation.
 
oh wait... maybe that was me downvoting stuff... that costs rep doesn;t it?
 
Yes.
 
@JerryCoffin mildly though
 
10:51 PM
@thecoshman Yes--each downvote costs you one point. Hmmmm....maybe it's time for me to go on a rampage of downvoting.
 
@JerryCoffin erm... what's the similar word I was grasping for, likely?
mingled?
 
@JerryCoffin Where else can you spend your precious rep at?
 
@JerryCoffin dabbled! That's it.
Sometimes words evade elude me
 
@sehe That works.
 
@JerryCoffin oh one point, then this is someone downvoting me
 
10:53 PM
@Nooble Bounties.
 
So. I'm drinking a cold beer.
From a crystal wine glass.
 
@JerryCoffin But you're all-knowing.
 
I'm a little tired. In my defense, it's rose
 
@sehe what a coincidence, I'm drinking hot coffee from a black mug
 
@Nooble You didn't ask where it would make sense for me to spend my rep, only where I can.
@thecoshman ...and I'm drinking water from an SO mug.
 
10:57 PM
Spartan
 
ergh... I'm trying to write stuff... but just not :\
 
@JerryCoffin I thought you would've known what I meant, since you're all-knowing.
 
@Nooble I never let facts get in the way of a good joke (or even a weak one).
 
@JerryCoffin :)
 
@sehe Yes. Spartan 6 to be more precise.
 
11:00 PM
"see this thru" is that right? as in "see it to completion"
@JerryCoffin oooh FPGA
 
dangerously distracting potentials for me :P
@Xeo it's from Austin Powers
 
@Xeo lol
 
@thecoshman Other than "thru" => "through".
 
Cock::now()
silly typo
sounds so demanding
 
11:03 PM
affirmative
 
@JerryCoffin :\ I want to trust you
 
Lol. @Cinch I think something isn't quite working out with the syntax highlighting:
int add(int x, int y)
{
    int sum = <span style="color: #ff0000;">x</span> + <span style="color: #0000ff;">y</span>;
    return <span style="color: #008000;">sum</span>;
}
 
I HATE ALL MOBILE INTERFACES
 
@MartinJames I agree
 
man Android Studio's autocomplete is slick
 
11:06 PM
@MartinJames Switch to the desktop UI.
 
@thecoshman Impossible:
2 hours ago, by Martin James
Just chatted to the band. They allseem to be sober. Weird.
 
I flagged shit by mistake.
3
 
:D made me notice that message.
 
any decent youtube channel?
 
@MartinJames that's some odd cocktails
 
11:08 PM
@MartinJames Don't keep doing that, though
 
@sehe cool, programming with html!
 
@Blob None whatsoever. The only decent ones I know, are indecent
 
@MartinJames I made a gif to help you.
 
(did I mention I'm tired)
@Nooble inb4 we never hear from Martin because he had an accident while drunkenly soldering a PS/2 mouse onto his mobile phone. At a bar.
 
@sehe No--you were too tired to do it.
 
11:10 PM
lies
 
@sehe Well maybe next time manufacturers should include a PS/2 port on their phones
 
Relevant
 
@Nooble Fuck you Nooble. I pissed about with that fucking link for ages.
 
@Nooble He maby drunk, but not so drunk he starts speaking gibberish
 
@MartinJames I have no idea what that means.
 
11:16 PM
@Nooble My mobile UI is so shit that I can't be responsible for my conclusions/actions. 3G is shit.
 
@MartinJames Well, you can always start bringing around a laptop.
 
TIL about asm("pause").
It's like a sched_yield, but instead it gives a hint to the CPU to activate the sibling hypercore.
 
@Mysticial that's family of isUserAGoat() then
 
11:42 PM
if(user.isGoat()) {user.kill()}
What a great food supply.
 
every language should implement a function named isUserADumbass()
 
@chmod711telkitty bool java.lang.system::isUserADumbass() const { return true; }
 
hint: that's not a language feature
 
  catch (Dumbass dummy)
  {
    cout << "A dumbass caught,  deal accordingly!"<< endl;
  }
 

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