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01:00
Which is why it needs breaking changes
Throwing away everything is not a sensible strategy IMO
@sehe Compiling with -Wextra and -Wall with both clang and gcc emits different warnings which are very annoying to fix and sometimes even impossible. Off the top of my head for clang is -Wconstexpr-not-const, -Wc++98-compat, -Wswitch (easy to fix admittedly) and the one with like.. mixed up struct and class usage.
@StackedCrooked I think both GCC and Clang warn about unused typedef declarations in functions. Very noisy for some boost libraries.
Pruning something on the other hand may be a good idea
@AndyProwl There's no realistic way unless there's standardized compiler switches to switch modes. Arguably this is making the language more complicated.
It's a pain lol
01:01
But C# has /unsafe and checked { } blocks. They're similar and I like them
I think the swallow trick emits warnings for clang too
@MarkGarcia 3rdParty libraries are a non-issue if you use -isystem.
@sehe Well, there are refactoring tools like Clang that would help you automatically convert your initializations' syntax
If you want to upgrade, just run it on your code base. Give users a reasonable time window for adapting. First deprecate, then remove
-Wswitch-enum is fantastic
Otherwise the language will always suffer from the shit that got accumulated over time and can no longer be removed because "breaking changes"
01:02
@StackedCrooked Not for key enums
@Rapptz mixed up struct/class I consider trivially fixable. The c++98 compat never arises in my real code. constexpr-not-const is a pain yes (but never hurt me too much because I had to stay MSVC compatible anyways...)
It eliminates a significant portion of error handling code.
Mixed up struct and class is impossible to fix last I tried
Switching it up just gave the warning again.
@Rapptz what is a key enum?
I don't know why.
@StackedCrooked keyboard::a, keyboard::b, ...
01:03
@AndyProwl Yeah. Let's go full retard 2to3.py style and revamp the language like Perl6. This will be the end of C++ adoption, I feel
@Rapptz why doesn't that work?
-Wswitch warns me for every key I don't handle.
@sehe Why is it going full retard to make the language simpler and more consistent?
I found out that default: break fixes it.
So I do that now.
@AndyProwl There's D, Go, Rust, whatnot. Hell, even Swift. I honestly don't see why the C++ standard needs to be mutilated to get better language evolution. It's about competing species
01:04
@Rapptz Then you need a default case.
It used to be defensive programming to always have a default case.
Now this is relic of the past.
I don't really see much point of doing default: break but it's whatever now.
@AndyProwl Because it breaks adoption, breaks library availability (which already massively sucks), will create chaos with laggin implementations from vendors (which already massively sucks). It'll just be the end. For no gain whatsoever.
We can have a cleaner language without killing c++
@StackedCrooked last i checked, MISRA guidelines still require it :P
@Rapptz Anticipate unanticipated case. You can then log an error, or even abort .
@sehe I don't think it breaks adoption, rather the opposite. Many people refrain from C++ exactly because of its unnecessary complexity and subtlety
01:06
The people who complain about the complexity will never end up using C++ even if it was magically simpler anyway.
Having talked to many people with that mindset, they're just parroting what they hear around the internet.
There's also people who stop using C++ for those reasons
@AndyProwl But the incongruent initialization styles are really bikeshedding compared to those concerns. Fix the hull breaches, don't hose buckets of water out!
@Rapptz That
The way we init variables won't do much.
Python's way of doing init is confusing (at first) but that language has wide adoption.
@AndyProwl It's mostly people who discovered that C++ was never the right too to begin with, IME. Like "We should do GUIs in C#/WPF anyways"
17 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
auto x = 42; // x is  int
auto x = {42}; // x is initializer_list
auto x(42); // x is int
auto x{42}; // x is initializer_list, will be int
If you don't think this is retarded, then I don't know what is :P
01:09
@AndyProwl Note that I share these concerns. I really think that concepts + modules would do a lot more in this area. And they would in their own right be rather tricky to sail into to the standard for general adoption.
@sehe I'm not sure we will ever have modules
I think it's retarded. And irrelevant. It's not an issue. Of any magnitude.
It could only threaten sanity of library writers.
They are planning on removing the init list deduction rules anyway.
I'm with sehe here.
Only one of them
The second one will stay
@AndyProwl Me niether. But I am sure it's more worth focusing on than tweaking tiny irrelevant syntax preference corners.
01:10
I don't think the second one is nearly as bad.
@AndyProwl i don't really see a problem there. if you want something more predictable, declare a freaking type. :)
Honestly this is only bad for those AAA people.
Why the hell did they use std::initializer_list instead of std::array anyway?
And I can guarantee most people are not in that AAA camp.
user1804599
@AndyProwl It's not just retarded, it's the reason I never use braces for initialisation.
01:11
@cHao That's why I think only library writers have a tough job. They might not be able to. And they've dealt with far worse pre-c++11
@rightføld I use them for aggregates and to thwart most-vexing-parse.
user1804599
I don't.
what's "AAA" mean here?
user1804599
I use auto x = …; for MVP.
std::atomic<int> x = {42};  // OK
std::atomic<int> x = 42;    // KO
And sometimes for implicit default construction (std::copy(std::istream_iterator<std::string>(std::cin), {}, back_inserter(v))
01:12
@cHao almost always auto
meh
user1804599
I'm in the AA camp.
i like auto, but if you know exactly what you want, tell the compiler.
particularly if it could guess wrong.
@AndyProwl Here, people should be aware of what they're actually doing. They need to be aware that constructing atomics is a more sensitive task than just any UDT.
nah
user1804599
01:13
I want exactly the type of the initialiser.
@MarkGarcia what pisses me off the most about initializer_listis that it does not support move semantics
@sehe It's unnecessary complexity. We don't need that.
@AndyProwl Been part of the language since C++98.
@rightføld I like it the terse way, sometimes
@AndyProwl Biggest offender. The hell is that thing? Two pairs of pointers? WTF.
@Rapptz Doesn't make it any less unnecessary
01:14
@AndyProwl Well. If this is your concern, I don't see why you still complain? Or why you even use C++
-Wsuggest-attribute=[pure|const|noreturn|format] looks interesting
@AndyProwl lol explicit constructors are there for good reason.
I'd be hard pressed to find your solution to this
@sehe Why do I still complain? What do you mean? I wish the language I use were simpler and I would like to help changing it in that direction
@Rapptz I'm not following
@AndyProwl What is your solution to your "issue"?
user1804599
@sehe Let's go full Styx.
01:16
You want to make std::atomic<int> x = 42; to be legal or what?
You brought it up for a reason.
@Rapptz Allow only one initialization syntax that works everywhere
@AndyProwl Well, making it simpler in that way is just turd polish, creating load and churn on compiler vendors, creating library incompatibilities for everyone down the road and removing the capacity to fix real issues.
That's killing c++ again.
@AndyProwl How would that work with explicit constructors?
user1804599
Are you going to make every constructor explicit so your braces are syntactically there for initialisation?
01:17
@Rapptz Do we really need copy-initialization vs direct-initialization vs direct-list-initialization vs copy-list-initialization, each with its own set of rules?
@Rapptz I suppose it ties in with the motion to standardize+require copy elision
@AndyProwl Do we really need to discuss whether we really need what is clearly a fact?
user1804599
#awk is dead.
user1804599
Nobody has talked for hours.
@sehe If the discussion is about eliminating unnecessary complexity, then yes?
The sad fact is, this is how it is. Add to that: trying to retroactively polish over it is going to bee exceptionally costly.
01:18
It seems nearly impossible to "fix".
@AndyProwl Feel free to do exactly that. Fork GCC or Clang. Be happy. Let's see how much time you waste and how many people will rave about the simpler version.
I bet people will be more inclined to put effort into a modules branch of clang.
user1804599
Most C++ programmers don't give a shit since they don't use the ++ part anyway.
Sometimes complexity is there for a reason. I'm not really defending the decisions in general. I think simplicity should be a goal but sometimes things get complicated and end up going the complicated road.
What's not to say that this happened to C++ or your made up language?
@rightføld Sadly true.
@AndyProwl How else are we gonna be experts at something? :P
01:20
@sehe I'm not saying adding new features is less important or less appealing than removing existing complexity. I just think the latter ought to be done too.
@AndyProwl So it comes down to "Does C++ have unwanted warts?" "Hell yes". "Is it sane to fix it in retrospect?" "Hell no".
@StackedCrooked We're not anyway :P
@AndyProwl It's not about the new features!
Do you need the increasingly frequent boldface? :)
The only thing I find absolutely stupid with initialisation is that initializer_list is greedy.
01:21
it feels like you're shouting at me
@AndyProwl I need markup. Increasingly? Coincidence. I was summarizing
@sehe I'd say hell yes to both
lol
@AndyProwl It's about removing obsoleting the inherent complexity and unsafety.
Anyway, time to sleep guys
01:22
I look forward to your sane solution.
@AndyProwl I'd say, show me how you are realistically planning on doing that.
Good night.
Sleep well.
21 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
If you want to upgrade, just run it on your code base. Give users a reasonable time window for adapting. First deprecate, then remove
(night)
user1804599
01:24
[[deprecated("use haskell fgt")]] namespace std { } problem solved.
user1804599
Oh wait, you first have to be able to deprecate namespaces. Wait for C++17 then.
@AndyProwl I say once we start sitting around the stranded whale of C++ misfeatures and doing cosmetic surgery on its corpse, instead of getting the freaking beast back into deeper water where it won't have such a rough time in the first place... that'll be the absolute end of an impressive language, however clumsy.
My colleagues are not very apt at C++, but they are excited about the improvements C++11 has brought. Lot's of stuff has gotten simpler (range-based for, scoped enums, auto).
I'm so sleepy I'm just writing code without even making sure it makes sense
it works though
is this programming by coincidence
or programming by tiredness
Keep going.
01:26
@AndyProwl Precisely how many vendors are going to be on board? And precisely how many libraries are going to be applying this? And precisely how will that cope with the noted tough cases in TMP-heavy code? I predict: you can't until you know what instantiations are made
user1804599
Ground Zeroes has an amazing replay value despite having only one map to play in.
user1804599
I hope they will release the two extra missions for the PS3 version as well.
python 3 adoption was very slow
I still use python 2.7
python 2 vs python 3 was really stupid
user1804599
The breaking changes introduced is about the best part of Python 3.
user1804599
Python 2 is terrible.
01:31
Fuck Python.
user1804599
That too.
@Rapptz I tried to do some restful web client in python 3. I couldn't make it work. The Python2.7 libraries were far more mature but didn't work. There seemed to be some ways in which certain old libraries should be made to work with Python3 but no documentation whatsoever.
Basically the ecosystem around urllib2, urllib3 is just borked. Even urllib3 dev admits there are gaping feature gaps in urllib3. But then again, urllib2 has issues with sharing of global state... :( Catch-22
The sad thing was that it was easier to write the client in both c++ and Java. Which is prezoisely what I ended up doing
@sehe gaping feature gaps? :P
Cookie handling. It's nonexistent.
And requests or whatitcalled doesn't exist for Py3 (or more accurately, it does but doesn't interoperate with urllib3 or urllib2 there, I don't quite remember)
If it begins with 'p', like Perl, Python, it's shit. Pizza is the sole exception.
01:34
void addCombinationResult(InventoryItem result)
{
	if (!item already exists(result))
	{
		create item in world;
		add it to inventory;
	}
	else
	{
		increase the item count in the inventory;
	}
}
it pisses me off that I can shorten that method to just two lines:
create item in world;
add it to inventory;
@MartinJames Excuse me, you forgot about Poutine.
because the output would be the same
but it would involve a creation and a destruction of an object whenever the item exists :'(
I guess iff I had just used a Python wrapper around libcurl and wrote everything else from scratch (like, basically I did in c++) it'd have been a walk in the park. But, honestly, what the hell is wrong with a highlevel language if you need to go that low?
@Borgleader OK, maybe..
I don't even know if it's a valid concern wrt performance right now
it could be if the player decides to spam the combo button 10000 times per second
I hate methods that look like that
01:37
@DietmarKühl Did you ever get a satisfying answer to your std::pair question?
user1804599
@AlexM. Me too. Fuck void-returning methods. Mutable state is a nightmare.
I don't even want to think about creating a non-mutable state inventory in an RPG
user1804599
State addCombinationResult(State state, InventoryItem result) FTFY
I don't even want to think about creating non-mutable state games actually
user1804599
Been there done that was a nice experience.
01:39
what complexity did the game have?
user1804599
You can easily update and render in a separate thread, just by making the state pointer atomic. :D
on a scale from pong to europa universalis iv
user1804599
@AlexM. Dunnet
meh
imo games are the perfect fit for stateful designs
user1804599
Imagine implementing replays when your state is immutable.
user1804599
01:42
Or undo. :D
user1804599
Holy Scheiß.
user1804599
It's snowing.
@AlexM. Are you seriously trying to cinvince rightfold of all people of the benefits of mutability? That guy swears by its opposite.
my packet class has gotten more complicated since adding allocator support.
I hope it snows a lot here, it's about time
01:43
But it seems to be working well.
1 deg C or so today
we had 16 two days ago :D
weather is fucked up
user1804599
@StackedCrooked why do you always write terrible code?
That's not terrible code.
I know when I write terrible code.
user1804599
stackedCooked'sCodeIsTerrible = const True
@rightføld well nothing stops you from gathering state info into snapshots whenever you want (every X frames for example)
even if the state is mutable
I can combine the fire cube with the weird ass cube and obtain the snow cube :D
user1804599
01:49
Seems realistic.
the GUI I made could use some work though :( it'll probably get messy to work with soon i.sstatic.net/LyPZr.png
@Borgleader: I just saw your question about the "pair question": there is only one answer which doesn't quite answer the question.
... but the comments by @dyp give an answer of what's going on.
(the short version: if the deduced and the defaulted types for a defaulted function differ, except for potentially const being added for the deduced type, there is an error)
user1804599
Bye.
NOOOOO
rightfold, don't go
I'm sorry, immutable state is the best :(
though I should go to sleep myself
it's bedtime (4 AM)
02:11
@DietmarKühl And they differed in this case? (your trivial impl vs the defaulted one?)
DoS 192.168.1.1 and you can be just as cool as Lizard Squad.
@Borgleader: yes. The deduced one deduced
pair<T0, T1>::pair(pair<T0, T1>&)
due to the deleted T1::T1(T1&) constructor while the defaulted function used
pair<T0, T1>::pair(pair<T0, T1> const&)
since the deduced version makes stronger requirements than the declared one, it is an error.
of course, neither can actually be used, i.e., it doesn't make much sense to talk about requirements...
Xeo
Xeo
03:09
Hi.
Sleep.
Bye.
also wtf
Congratulations on stealing my answer (basically word for word!) and winning an accept with it. Good job. — Lightness Races in Orbit 42 secs ago
wanker
Devils advocate here: How do you know he stole it?
Because he first posted a code dump, then I told him a good answer has an explanation, then I posted my answer, then he copy/pasted my sentences into his answer as an edit.
Literally word for word, plus or minus very slight paraphrasing and except for the added "here is my code dump for you" line
It's like he didn't even really bother to pretend he hadn't nicked it
The sort of shit you pull when you're copy/pasting Wikipedia articles into school homework but want to fool a quick Google-based plagiarism check
meanwhile....
On this day long ago, a child was born who, by age 30, would transform the world. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton b. Dec 25, 1642
also
COME ON TARS
ahhh and he's literally just replaced one of my copy/paste lines with a paraphrase, a few minutes ago
03:30
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I saw this on Christmas and I was wondering why everyone was so angry.
I just got it like 10 seconds ago.
I forgot about Jesus.
haha
well I just saw it and heard that people were getting riled up about it
which is pretty pathetic IMO. what, we're not allowed to celebrate anyone else on the 25th December?
Isaac Newton is cooler anyway
:p
03:56
@Rapptz In fairness, the "1642" is (accurately or otherwise) based on the supposed birth of that "Jesus" guy...
 
1 hour later…
05:21
Oh no! Playstation and xbox online services are down! Someone call an ambulance! Wii U Wii U Wii U
Hahahahaha /cc @Rapptz
lol consoles
@StackedCrooked Is he advocating two-phase init?
The class name should be a hint.
The object name is a second hint. :P
The usual preaching to the choir.
05:50
hello guys..
@StackedCrooked oh right
It's bath.
i checked quickly and i thought it was Bar
i want to generate erdos renyi graph..can u help
i am new here..dont know where to post
please help
It's christmas. Relax.
05:52
I rather watch BBC's Planet Earth
hey..please tell me
helpppp needed
@Borgleader Old.
06:40
First time posting from my new rig.
@Mysticial specs?
Do you really want to know?
My compile times are fast too.
:d
06:49
@Mysticial Oh damn.... You got an 8 core! The 850 Ego is sexy too.
They used to be painfully slow though. Much worse than yours I bet.
Ego... Ffs autocorrect.
Sure enough, that video card does support 4 monitors.
So I literally dropped it in place of my old rig.
The only difference is that now I can't put anything on top of the rig since the top is the radiator.
Is it stupidly fast?
4 GHz Haswell
OC'ed to 4 GHz
Compiling is pretty stupidly fast now.
06:57
Have you crunched numbers on it yet? (to compare with your old rig)
yeah
It's kinda ridiculous.
Is DDR4 even worth it?
lol at stock clock your CPU is nearly twice as powerful as mine jeezus
Hello my fellow 2.13 GHz friend.
Everyone seems to be able to get 4.5+ GHz on this chip. But, the power draw is ridiculous.
I can definitely go higher than 4 GHz since I have enough cooling headroom, but I don't like the power draw.
07:02
My current clock speed atm is 4.4 GHz
The other problem with going over 4 GHz, is that I need to override the vcore setting. And I'd rather not force the CPU to stay 1.25 vcore 24/7. Such a waste of power.
But I'm only at quad-core not eight cores like you
I could try messing with offset mode so I keep the vcore throttling when the CPU is idling, but it's still be increasing the idle vcore by some 0.2v.
@Rapptz What vcore are you running?
I'm running at exactly 1.200 under load.
1.128
I'm not under load though.
oh
I was gonna say...
07:05
the only thing I really need the CPU clock speed to be high for is compiling
this PC compiles crazy fast compared to my old rig
It seems like the auto vcore settings are locking my vcore to 1.2 even on idle. I might try to take a look later.
Grats on the new PC btw.
Also:
6 mins ago, by Rapptz
Is DDR4 even worth it?
I'd like to bump the vcore to 1.210 under load since the rig was only marginally stable at 4.125 GHz on 1.2v. And I want more headroom than that.
@Rapptz Don't know yet.
All the videos I watched when I was interested in the topic pointed to "Not too much"
DDR4 wasn't a choice for Haswell-E.
07:08
I think Skylake will be the first to be DDR4 mandated?
@Rapptz Some sources say it will support both.
Haswell-E mandates DDR4.
My pi program (shouldn't) care too much about memory speed since it isn't that memory bound. But I didn't build this rig to run benchmarks. I have a separate machine dedicated to that.
@Rapptz I would've had it working on Christmas if I had the right memory for it. :)
I was going to wait for Broadwell but decided it probably wasn't worth the effort/wait.
I still don't think Broadwell is in an accessible price range
Broadwell is gonna be mid next year.
Skylake Xeon will be 2016. Too long.
Only Skylake Xeon with have AVX512.
Let's see how fast TF2 loads with this SSD.
Maybe I could try putting it on a ram drive just to be stupid.
damn...
Installing stuff is also stupidly fast. I can't believe I waited this long to get a real SSD.
Is Assassin's Creed and FarCry4 any good? They came with the SSD.
07:23
both?
I only got FC4 from my SSD.
Go for FC4.
Yeah, both.
AC:U is shit.
Try trading it for something else.
I sold it for $30
but I doubt it'll fetch much lol
I was gonna price match the SSD to save $20. But that would invalidate the free games, so I went with the original price - two games, why not?
Are these steam games?
no
UPlay
07:40
Here's the initial open-air setup:
That was actually before I discovered that the memory wasn't stable.
@Mysticial Why do you collect penises in a jar?
lolwut
The "CAUTION" jar on the bottom left.
The pillbox?
idgi
07:42
@Mysticial On the bottom left corner of the table.
That's just a pillbox. You can't fit any penises in it.
You have problems Jefffrey.
is TF2 still fun
You're not even playing
You're in the main menu noob
I'm not actually playing ATM.
I'm just tasked out.
07:45
What game mode do you play
I only play Control Point and CtF
Almost anything.
I'm pretty bored.
hang on, lemme finish something, then I'll join a real TF2 game.
Been like 42 years since I last played TF2
Oh yeah, morning.
07:49
I'm going back into TF2. I changed my sn to "Kuroneko" some time ago.
I noticed.
My nickname has always been Danny on Steam though.

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