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00:00
@AndyProwl closed questions suck, cuz you almost always have a follow up
@AndyProwl find is more generic
... and the thing isn't about interfering with whatever the user does anyway: in fact, you can use iterators with my algorithms straight away.
contains can be implemented in terms of find
but if you need to find an element, you need find
@TemplateRex I still don't get it
contains is an open invitation for endless fuckups by noobs
if (contains(c, x)) find(c, x)
00:01
wat
@AndyProwl: aside from things like none_of() or any_of() being there already (contains() is but a special case) most of the time you'll need the position anyway.
all I'm saying is
@Jefffrey yes. If I wanted to find an element I would definitely use find
it seems to me like you're band-aiding solutions over tiny use cases and not looking at the ways in which the general problems can be solved.
@AndyProwl it's not about easy to use, it's about easy to abuse
00:02
@AndyProwl all I'm saying is that contains and find are on two different levels of abstraction
for example, there's plain no need to compare ranges.
there is a Bjarne quote on it, but not sure and too lazy to google for it
@DietmarKühl I don't think so. I think the OP in the Asylum was quite to the point: almost all code bases have a contains() function. That means is quite a popular functionality and since it is so natural to the concept of a "container", it ought to be standardized
@DietmarKühl Is there any reason for having none_of & any_of when one is essentially the other but negated?
and duplication of constness code is something that affects far more than just iterators.
00:02
@Puppy: actually, I don't consider property maps a "band aid" at all. I rather consider them to be much more general solution than anything else anybody as discussed in that area.
@Jefffrey I agree with that. And I think we should have both
@Borgleader: not in my opinion. Although, given that the current algorithms are functions rather than object adapting any_of() with a negator is a bit annoying.
But we can't have nice things in C++, remember?
@AndyProwl strongly disagree, either only find, or pair<bool, it> as return type
00:03
@TemplateRex Protecting from abuse is not C++'s mission
@AndyProwl took me a while to figure that out to. I think TemplateRex might be in a heightened state of associativity tonight
@AndyProwl general principle, easy to abuse is bad interface
First of all, the fact that a user does something which is less efficient than it should be is not "abuse"
@sehe I shall remember to speak more clearly to you mere mortals
C++'s mission despite its current state is to make it easy to create correct and efficient code and make it hard to create wrong and inefficient code.
00:05
@DietmarKühl As far as I can see, the area seems to be mostly a subset of ranges area. And ranges do it better.
@TemplateRex It's just today :) And twice with a (different) g/f reference. Food for psychologists!
Secondly, I don't think it's wise to exclude a functionality such as "contains" because "people could call that and then something which generalizes it"
of course, something like for(auto x: c) is a massive setback.
If they do, it's because they don't know their algorithms
@DietmarKühl That's why C++'s mission is fundamentally broken and C++ will never be really accepted among modern developers.
00:05
which they should
@sehe my g/f is a subset of my wife, and vice versa
@Puppy: note that ranges don't address the issue of access at all and are actually yet another ortogonal dimension.
@TemplateRex you have no g/f
@DietmarKühl You can have a range of some T, and that T can be a regular value or a reference of some description.
I have no intention to work against ranges but rather create better underpinnings.
00:07
so I don't see what the access problem really is if you have ranges.
@Puppy: yes. Note that identity is a rather decent and likely to be quite comment property map.
@DietmarKühl yeah. invites loopy code. However, boost::for_each(range, [](auto& x) { /* */) would have been almost as succinct anyways
@TemplateRex most impressed
@TemplateRex omg your wife is a singleton set
@sehe Yep, I often state that range-for is a pathetic band-aid.
you're married to a pattern
00:08
@AndyProwl you bigamist!
anyways I gotta go to bed
goodnight peoples.
and puppy is a null pointer
@sehe: yes, another fuck up: not having polymorphic templates in C++11 because a majority of the C++ committee has no idea how to program C++.
night Puppy
@DietmarKühl wait, wut?
00:09
@DietmarKühl polymorphic templates?
yeah what's a polymorphic template?
gossip time, who are the greatest fuckups in the committee?
sorry: s/tempates/lambdas/
00:09
@TemplateRex: you mean, excluding the obvious answer?
@sehe No early termination.
@DietmarKühl obvious for insiders perhaps, please do tell
(for those, to whom it isn't obious: Bjane)
@DietmarKühl that's harsh. I'm still hesitant to believe it's true. But yeah. Could be.)
I'm tempted to blame MSVC broken compiler model and stuff like that (the committee members may know how to program, but if the compiler devs don't know how to 2phase-lookup, let's not base core language concepts on implicit templates...
@Rapptz When do you need this. That's ranges territory again, usually
sorry: s/Bjane/Bjarne/
00:11
@DietmarKühl he might be wrong on some issues, but he surely must have an idea how to program C++
well, this is disputable.
ITT Bjarne can't C++
3
everyone has an idea about stuff, not necessary the right idea though
/awesome contribution
@DietmarKühl yay for autocorrect
admittedly, I think Bjarne is giving more sensible direction than many others.
@sehe: sorry, mobile device: it doesn't even highlight the errors.
00:12
You Tizen, I Bjane
I always thought Michael Wong was a smiling but clueless puppy, but I think I saw at least one decent technical talk on some transactoinal shit
@DietmarKühl I'd tend to agree. He tends to not forget about reality.
@TemplateRex I look forward to that one
actually, to give Bjarne credit: he is directing C++ into some directions. Most others are just following along something.
Also I've heard Bartosz is writing a book about Category Theory for programmers. I look forward to that one as well
00:14
there are only a few people who are actually trying to pursue some direction and Bjarned is just the obvious vocal one of these.
@AndyProwl 80% of that stuff is online somewhere as lecture notes in more or less unedited form (on his website). the nice thing about the book is a large number of biographies of mathematicians
@TemplateRex I've not seen him contribute bad ideas yet. The wise just shut up until they have something to say?
well, time to give Ville credit into pulling normally into questionable directions.
@sehe the wise ask questions to guide the young and impatient
being quiet is not a really revealing strategy
who is the wise? Alex?
00:15
It's not a revealing strategy. Nope
Alex is mostly right but has two main problems: a. few people list, b. he isn't right on everything, I think
he has TRex arms
> The wise just shut up until they have something to say?
AFAIC, no one in particular
s/list/listen/
Alex would not tolerate to have a few people list. He'd use a vector of people, clearly.
00:16
@DietmarKühl would you be for a rotating dictatorship instead of consensus model?
@AndyProwl ...
yeah I know
@Andy: agreed. I should learn to type better ;)
like in 2015 it's Hinannt's year, then Herb, then Bjarne
I'd fear the herbs
00:17
@TemplateRex: I prefer consensus.
Yeah me to. Way better for continuity as well
I have managed to convince people for crucial things I had actual interest in.
Otherwise we'd get people just stalling proposals until they know they will get vetoed anyway
I'm still proud of having had a major contribution with preventing C++/CLI from becoming an ISO standard.
6
@DietmarKühl so you are on Herb's shitlist?
00:19
Woah. Would that have been tied to c++ standard?
@TemplateRex Did you drink?
no more xmas cards and hawaiian shirts for you
ho hum
beautiful, my item combo editor works fine
should have made this a full blown editor window instead of a sidebar editor
fuck
(at the Berlin meeting the C++ committee was rather close to waving C++/CLI through to put it to vote by national bodies for becoming an ISO standard; it would almost certainly have been accepted, i.e., it was important to rather register opposition from the C++ committee)
@sehe nah, but I would think that veto-ing a major component from MS would not elicit much good will, and MS has pretty big bonus culture based on targets
00:21
Herb wasn't too impressed but recently I had some MS people admit that they are quite happy that C++/CLI is NOT standardized.
@TemplateRex yeah. that seems about what you would say on normal other nights
@TemplateRex who vetoed anything?
Herb didn't speak with me for a while but he seems to be OK with the turn of events by now.
@sehe major contributions, sort of de facto veto
BTW, some people can effectively veto changes.
@TemplateRex oh well. Leeway granted
00:22
@sehe thank you, your honor
@DietmarKühl Bjane of their existence!
Bjarne is one of these: something he doesn't like has pretty slim chance to make it.
(I love Law and Order btw, just a random side remark)
Who uses /CLI now anyway? For windows development C#/.NET is almost always the way to go. And there's /CX.
@DietmarKühl Also partly because he usually waits a long time to raise his voice. But when he does it's in the wellknown "XXX Considered Harmful" style :)
Don't know about his "private" lobbying of course
00:24
@MarkGarcia: yes. this is why the MS crowd is not really unhappy that C++/CLI didn't make it. At the time (2006 at the Berlin meeting) they were not pleased.
@sehe Walter B. and Andrei are still upset about that, at least on the D forum
@TemplateRex Yeah. However I think that was one of the greater leadership moments
Actually, I was surprised to see Bjarne proposing UFCS
@sehe: realistically, the improtant decisions are made not during the official sessions.
@AndyProwl I was more surprised that Herb also proposed it, and without mentioning D! (which has that exact feature)
00:25
I felt it was like saying "ok the D guys were not that wrong after all"
C++ is being given the D... um... features!
Ohai
alright, anyway, gotta go, 2 kids dancing at my bedside in 6 hours
@TemplateRex That's what made it so surprising for me that Bjarne proposed it, after the static if thing
00:27
@TemplateRex mine too. Good night
user1804599
> Just be a little patient.
UFCS seems to be to only way to have people create generic programming friendly types.
@AndyProwl right, but they should team up for V2
night to both
V2?
somehow people feel that writing x.f(...) is somehow superior to f(x, ...)
00:27
am I slow tonight, or is it you who is more cryptic than usual? :)
@DietmarKühl I think most people think that because of autocomplete
as if object oriented programming is a goal rather than a problem.
yes. ... and they are wrong.
Agreed. Although I believe OOP is neither a goal nor a problem, it's a tool
you guys better not kill OOP or anything
well, it is important to make strong cases :)
I'm against killing
00:30
no, there is a niche need for having it.
Although I am in favor of breaking changes
but it seems everyone else hates them
Well C++ sure is about multi-paradigm programming, so UFCS isn't really bad unless it breaks other parts badly.
OK, I'm kicked out of my secondary living room (Robbengatter in Berlin; somewhat inconviently located for someone normally working in London)
it surely is a breaking change
@DietmarKühl how rude of them :)
yes, very inconsiderate.
00:34
interrupting a discussion about C++ fuckups is extremely inconsiderate
hopefully they're aware of that
@AndyProwl I like OOP
I like everything
I use what makes sense in the given situation
I'm at peace with the universe
2
well unless I use C#
then I can only use a few things
but you get the point
@AlexM. That makes sense, yes. I don't think OOP (for whatever that means) is good or bad a priori
Also, for many people OOP = inheritance all over the place
which means ew horrible vade retro
@AlexM. The standard committee must like you.
no, because C++ rarely makes sense in the given situation. So he doesn't use it
:P
@AndyProwl well, it is usually highlighted among the first things in OOP related teaching, in schools or outside
for some reason
00:39
True, but it's not the only aspect of it
The main aspect IMO is encapsulation, coupling data with algorithms that work on them and guarantee manipulation respects invariants, etc.
"hey, OOP is like making an image of the world in your PC! see there's this bicycle class and you make a bicycle with a machine gun which results in another class called machine gun bicycle which inherits bicycle. just like in the real world!"
yeah, I've heard much of that too
recently colleagues at work discussing whether it is wrong for City to hold a pointer to other cities which are close to it, because in reality it's not like that
It obviously depends on the context. :|
"I know, let's add road signs pointing to cities!"
00:43
Yes!
I'd also represent every single molecule the universe is made of as an object
that's a much more faithful representation
But then you only have one "Particle" class.
Where's the OOP in that.
:P
00:44
will you also make a Universe class?
I'd have Muon, Gluon, and all the Hadrons in a nicely organized hierarchy of inheritance
watch out, god object candidate
Yet, my previous solution that reused packets using a circular buffer was much faster.
@AlexM. A UniverseSingletonFactory can't be missing
Now that's a case where Singleton isn't an anti-pattern.
Unless we want a multiverse.
00:45
why precluding that possibility?
Well, fine. Let us have a Multiverse.
MultiverseSingletonFactory
user1804599
> bash
user1804599
You suck.
Wait, you're not allowed to abbreviate in Java:
user1804599
00:46
Scala has a Universe class in its standard library.
MultipleUniverseSingletonFactory
@AndyProwl ^^
@Mysticial I don't believe there's a problem with naming a Java class Multiverse.
00:47
@MarkGarcia lol
@MarkGarcia Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at.
At Meeting C++ Scott Meyers told us he is thinking of writing a proposal about making all initialization syntaxes except direct-list initialization illegal
@E_net4 Java coding standards disallows abbreviations. "Multiverse" is an abbreviation of "Multiple Universes" or "Multiple Universe Theory"
How much code would that break?
@StackedCrooked I don't know either. :) I just put stuff in there.
@AndyProwl direct-list initialization meaning the intializer list way?
00:48
@StackedCrooked Yep
The rare exceptions being, "URL".
int x{5}
Also, TIL there are sophisticated online tools for making BB-style logos.
But I like that I can initialize my member variables at the point of declaration.
You can do that with direct-list-init too
00:49
@Mysticial Unless we just use the term "Multiverse" as the concept, and discard the fact that it's an abbreviaton.
Forgetting to initialize a member variable is one of my most common real bugs.
And it is the only syntax you can use for initializing members in contructor initialization lists
Distance between declaration and initialization makes it easy to forget..
You don't find AWS calling classes AmazonWebServicesCredentials
@StackedCrooked The compiler should warn about that
00:50
@AndyProwl GCC consistently fails to warn about this.
Clang does a much better job. But at work we use GCC.
user1804599
> GCC
user1804599
You suck.
@E_net4 They're being un-java-like. Java names are supposed to be so long that they exceed the 80 character line limit by themselves.
@StackedCrooked my colleague used to do that
I'd just show him my unit tests failing
Once GCC gets its act together this will be a problem from the past.
00:51
and he'd be like "oops"
auto x = 42; // x is  int
auto x = {42}; // x is initializer_list
auto x(42); // x is int
auto x{42}; // x is initializer_list, will be int
That's fucked up
if you put auto instead of int, they're all int. If you put std::atomic<int>, half of them blows
Yup, and std::initializer_list itself.
@Mysticial Screw the standards on that. I want nice code.
00:52
And the fact that std::initializer_list pops its head in the core language standard.
Does it make sense to have four ways of initializing a variable, none of which currently generalizes to all cases?
main.cpp: In constructor 'a::a()':
main.cpp:3:5: warning: 'a::b' should be initialized in the member initialization list [-Weffc++]
     a() {}
     ^
@E_net4 If you want nice code, don't use Java. Java requires that code not be nice.
:)
@Mysticial Not entirely true, but I'll stop here. This is the lounge, after all. :P
@Rapptz nobody actually uses -Weffc++ (I admit I sometimes enable it just to see)
00:53
Yeah I know.
I don't use it because it's too noisy.
What's -Weffc++?
A compiler option. One that Scott (roughly) said he felt flattered by during the Meeting C++ 2014 keynote
Effective C++ warnings
Effective C++?
lol there is, really?
00:54
wtf
I bet if I turned it on, the compiler would go into an infinite loop printing out warnings.
I prefer auto x = y; notation (if possible).
a lot of the warnings are just plain noisy though
@StackedCrooked Scott argues in favor of direct-init-list because of consistency. You can't use = in constructor initializer lists
@Rapptz they're really restrictive. In particular it tends to prohibit Rule Of Zero style code, AFAIR
Weffc++ is also enabled at work. It annoys me like hell. Guys turn on extra warning levels and then stare in admiration at the new warnings found. Then they proceed without fixing them.
00:55
that sucks
He admits auto result = f() + g() looks more natural than auto result{f() + g()}, but believes consistency is more important
@StackedCrooked warnings as errors or bust
I've been pleading for that for years.
I do warnings as errors without -Werror
@AndyProwl I cordially disagree. Let's just have mandatory training for library writers and be done with it
00:56
because some warnings are too noisy to fix
can't you disable specific warnings that are too noisy to fix?
@AndyProwl but auto x = y; has no gotchas afaik.
It's not always allowed though..
@AlexM. Sometimes.
@StackedCrooked It will not
@AlexM. Lacks sufficient granurality.
00:57
You can with -Wall and -Wextra but not individual -pedantic things
@Rapptz disagree. I do "as errors" but without -Werror because it is nicer to find the actual errors when warnings are marked warning: in the quickfix window.
And you can't with -Weffc++
@sehe Why is this specific to library writers?
@StackedCrooked Yep. Although there are rumours about making copy elision mandatory
Which would make AAA style possible for non-movable types to
@AndyProwl the consistency and "what do we actually need here" conundrum only arises in embarassingly generic code, IMO. In all other cases you'd easily see what happens, what is valid and what you want.
00:58
(inb4 fuck AAA style)
@AndyProwl That's great!
Clang is kinda noisy if Wextra is enabled.
Clang is (by definition) kinda noisy
@StackedCrooked It keeps clanging, yeah.
It complains about unused const declarations.
00:59
@sehe I think having a consistent way of writing initializations is not about generic code nor library writers specifically. It's about a language not being more complex than it needs to be
It already is. Start a new language.

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