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00:00
FWIW I actually never said that I would be gone for good. So, y'know.
The Koala is here to stay.
Took a page out of @Bartek's book.
user1646075
i see from the links we have a visitor. hmmmmm
user1646075
@Nooble yes, and most welcome
that's what some say anyway
user1646075
00:01
ahh, little icons... i thought that was just banned people.
Banned people are not in the room. Little icons (on the RHS) signify plonked persons. Little icons on the LHS signify short messages and nothing more.
user1646075
@Puppy conditionally of course. Wait, is said most. my mistake
user1646075
noobles, we're watching you, ok? shape up..........
user1646075
@LightnessRacesinOrbit and I noticed that a spammy dick a few weeks ago who got banned also got a small icon. Hence my theory on the size.
user1646075
he appeared to be hanging around reading, and hopefully feeling very left out.
00:03
Me?
user1646075
@Nooble heh, nup. the avatar was two bluish blocks, one short. Can't remember the name
They also get smaller if you plonk them, I believe.
user1646075
so i just found out ;-)
user1646075
Hey @chmod711telkitty how's the build going? I bet you're surrounded by tradey-cracks.
Lately haven't had to lug around my laptop, since it's broken. There's a good side to every bad thing.
user1646075
00:11
@Nooble only 3 keys left to dry up?
@aclarke WTF is that?
@aclarke Some keys work but press others along with them.
I'd say half of the keys work, including caps lock, shift and windows key.
But Caps presses E with it.
user1646075
@MartinJames aussie slang. Tradie is tradesman (or woman, the nicer option for the current subject) and crack is their ass-crack that always emerges from the top of their work shorts.
@aclarke Google doesn't know. Must be some recent Oz slang.
@aclarke Orite:)
user1646075
plumbers crack is the ROTW phrase (rest of teh world) i think
00:14
@aclarke Yup - I got it now:)
user1646075
@Nooble i hate that. it's like my h key always presses e when following t - teh
user1646075
a brand called King Gee's is the obligatory tradie shorts here
Oh yeah and, some keys suddenly activate out of random. Which is why using a USB keyboard wasn't really a solution. Sometimes, the function or shift key gets stuck, and keys do not work.
@Nooble ..and I thought Eddie, (bar manager), had problems with his driver, (four bogeys at weekend).
@Nooble Some practical joker actually just switched your keyboard to a Russian layout when you weren't looking.
00:23
@JerryCoffin Wha- No way. Dear god you're right! /s
I've already taken the hard drive out, in fear of it being water damaged.
Might've voided warranty right there. Oh well.
user1646075
@Nooble it's probably the least vulnerable object in there.
@aclarke Rather not take any risk, but you're right. I'm sure they aren't the most water friendly though, the spindle likes to hover over air, not water.
@Nooble Point is, other than one (usually pretty tiny) breathing hole, they're quite well sealed. I'm not sure water would go through the breathing hole unless it was submerged (or at least there was quite a lot of water, anyway).
00:40
So I finally reached 9k rep today, 1k to go before i get most of the fun tools :D
user1646075
and I guess the board on the disk is as weak as the motherboard itself, so maybe I'm wrong. Sounds like you're fucked either way.
user1646075
@Borgleader Congrats. /rushes off to downvote
user1646075
Goddamned. Anyone ever had a situation where a USB device won't register in win7 just because you're connecting it to a VM? Dude at the shop swears it should automagically register it's driver as per normal.
user1646075
it's a usb box for a laptop disk. SuSE can see it. An Ubuntu VM can see it. Win7 VM - unknown driver
user1646075
00:57
WTF? It only works on Win7 VM when it's plugged into the sockets on the right hand side of the laptop.
user1646075
@Nooble, did you spill coke on my machine?
@aclarke Only a couple of gallons.
@Borgleader Congrats--but keep working for that last set of tools at 20K (or is it 30k?)
user1646075
Don't you get a set of free steak knives at 50k?
@JerryCoffin Thanks, and its 20k iirc
01:00
@aclarke I never did.
user1646075
@Rapptz ooooo - I feel like a peeping tom.
Ok, so I've just watched "Interstellar".
They all die in the end.
@Borgleader Probably.
user1646075
@Jefffrey without spoiling it, or anyfing
> anyfing
user1646075
01:01
/pouting
user1646075
not that I know the thing anyway ;-)
I never spoil endings, so you can be sure they don't all die in the end.
Oh wait
@aclarke poutine > pouting
user1646075
a sure-fire cure
Anyway, it's nice.
I'd recommend watching it.
In english if you can.
user1646075
01:03
ahh showing now in cinemas across the country.
user1646075
I'll take the lad
user1646075
where would sci-fi be without the theory of wormholes?
take the wat
@JerryCoffin do you perhaps know of any literature on this data structure I'm implementing?
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@Jefffrey First born spawnling.
01:05
@JerryCoffin I looked around but I can't seem to find any - I can't imagine this being novel
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@orlp what structure?
@aclarke a contiguous deque
@aclarke or double ended vector
oh god
@aclarke whatever term you prefer
again with this contiguous deque
it's a fucking double ended vector
01:06
@aclarke not that many tradies, rented a dingo last week ($581 for a day):
it has absolutely nothing to do with a deque
user1646075
there's plenty? Start with Niklaus Wirth, Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs
it's a vector that expands in both directions
instead of just one
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty phoar! That'll be fun!
@aclarke are you sure they contain a contiguous one?
user1646075
01:07
what does contiguous mean in your world?
@orlp Have you seen Intel's new AVX512 flavors? It adds a full byte permute.
it was! 12 hours days to fully utilize the machine ...
@aclarke contiguous
what else could it mean
@Mysticial I haven't yet
compact in memory
01:08
still amazes me why there is no female tradie or builders
And integer 52-bit multiply-add which I might actually find useful.
@Mysticial what do you mean with "flavors" though?
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty Drive it down the street late at night cutting holes in the neighbours gardens, and blame it on aliens.
@Mysticial 52 bit? are they re-using their floating point unit or something
01:08
AVX-512IFMA52
AVX-512VBMI
@orlp Yeah.
I have no idea whether these are gonna be in Skylake, Xeon Phi, or both.
@orlp Not really, no. A couple of us discussed it in a string of comments on SO years ago, but TTBOMK never actually implemented it.
a neighbours said 'good for planting veges & flowers in the backyard', I thought to myself 'for $580 a day?'
user1646075
If it's going to grow without bounds at either end, there's going to have to be either chained blocks or total reallocation and movement when the box is outgrown. No big deal, just an implementation detail. Start coding already!
@Jefffrey A deque allows you to push or pop at either end. How does that differ?
@Mysticial but that full byte shuffle, on what width?
01:10
@JerryCoffin A doubly linked list does that too.
I'm still waiting for bit rotates BTW :(
user1646075
@orlp A stack supports push and pop. Going with the same visual model: a que supports put (at the front) and pop. A deque supports put, get, push, pop. The end. Start coding.
@Jefffrey Sure--you can implement a deque on top of a linked list (though, of course, if you think you want to, you're probably mistaken).
user1646075
Don't come back until you have a library on github.
AFAIK his implementation would literally be just a vector with more capacity and (extra capacity / 2) at either ends.
01:11
also tradies in construction industry are so fat, at least most of the ones that I came across - last week I hired a 200kg concrete cutter whom costed me $300 for an hour for cutting some existing concrete in the backyard ...
So to me it's a fucking vector.
@Jefffrey you're wrong
A deque is implemented in blocks IIRC.
This doesn't have non-contiguous blocks.
@Jefffrey it's not just double the capacity
Just like a vector.
01:12
@Jefffrey The one in the standard is, but that's not the only way a deque can be implemented.
@orlp Ok then.
@Jefffrey the fact that a deque is built out of blocks is an implementation detail
@orlp _mm512_permutex2var_epi8
@JerryCoffin Doesn't matter.
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty including travelling time. But yeah, those bastards get too much money I reckon
01:12
Looks like it takes 2 vectors, and creates a 3rd arbitrarily from the bytes of the two.
@Mysticial 0 hits on google lol
@JerryCoffin However you implement it it's not going to have all memory contiguous.
@Jefffrey Depending on what you're doing with it, it certainly can matter (sometimes a lot).
Which is what I thought that was all about.
@Mysticial oh so it's not a shuffle, it's a mix?
@Jefffrey it has all memory contiguous.
01:13
Then it's a vector to me.
No matter what it does.
Or what guarantees it gives.
@Jefffrey That makes you sound foolish and narrow-minded.
In computer science, a double-ended queue (dequeue, often abbreviated to deque, pronounced deck) is an abstract data type that generalizes a queue, for which elements can be added to or removed from either the front (head) or back (tail).
@orlp Yeah, you construct a 3rd vector by taking any combination of bytes from the 2 vector inputs.
Constant indexing and contiguous memory are the key points of a vector.
@Mysticial any combination in any order?
user1646075
01:14
@orlp A deque cannot possibly cope with arbitrary size without having issues of block chaining or whatever. The simplest case is a double-linked list, no issues of block growth. Other simplest case is a fixed size array arranged as a circular queue, but that has a strict limit on contained items. Anything else is a combination of the two; OR if the circular queue gets too big, reallocate, shift everything to it and proceed as normal. There are no alternatives.
@orlp Yes
is there a word that means "slow"
but starts with f?
@JerryCoffin I'm sorry. We all have to be narrow-minded some times.
I can't imagine how it would be implement efficiently. But there's an instruction for it.
@Mysticial so you can shuffle using the same vector as both sources?
01:15
@Rapptz slow as in retarded-like or as in slow?
@aclarke except I do neither
@Rapptz At one time I'd have said "functional".
@Jefffrey What do you think? The latter.
@orlp You certainly can.
user1646075
a vector is more, in that you can change items at any position, also accessing an item is non-desctructive in a vector. BUT it's a good implementation vector, pardon the pun
01:16
the fuck do I know
you brought 0 context
man
there's fast
fast and fucked
why isn't there a word that means slow but starts with f
user1646075
'fucked' ?
01:16
@Rapptz fastless :)
flacid?
user1646075
faltering
failing
@Puppy farting
@aclarke yeah that's good
@Rapptz Why do you care?
01:17
just pretend I'm playing scrabble
@Rapptz There you don't care about meaning.
I know but it's the closest thing I could think of.
I'm making a backronym.
@Mysticial hmm I wonder how they did that
user1646075
he's writing an angsty poem to a special someone.
@Mysticial it sounds like too many permutations to hardcode so they're doing some fancy barrel shifting or something
01:18
@Rapptz Now the truth comes out.
@orlp yeah. A non-staged full permute is O(N^2) to the # of elements.
@Mysticial you could theoretically do all shifters in parallel and or them together
@aclarke There are actually a few alternatives.
user1646075
@orlp, I'd rather not care about those details. Tailor the deque to the expected usage. A double-linked list is fucking fast if you don't mind wasting 2 pointers per node. An implementation with chained blocks would only suffer a few percent performance issues at worst.
double linked list is fucking fast?
user1646075
01:20
A deque that you have to house keep is a dique
sorry, but you don't know shit
a doubly linked list is terrifyingly slow
user1646075
amortise all the movements you might need, and/or the endless checking for fullness, etc
Ell
Ell
Evening all
user1646075
seriously? damn. Only if you are using it for more than a deque.
@aclarke my solution can best be described by using 4 pointers - two pointers hold the range of the capacity, two other pointers hold the range of actual contents - this allows free space to be kept at either end
user1646075
01:21
in which case it's not a deque
@orlp Each barrel shifter requires O(N log(N)) transistor. To avoid cycling them, you'd need one for each element which is O(N^2 log(N)). I think a 64 x 64-6 multiplexers might be O(N^2). Not sure though.
user1646075
@orlp and if that free space gets filled?
My guess is that it would probably take some 6 cycles to run.
i.e. cycling the same set of shifters/multipliers 6 times for lg(64) depth.
@aclarke that doesn't matter - but I'll assume you meant what happens if you need more space and there is none left
user1646075
yup
user1646075
01:23
oh noez! time to grow!
@aclarke Spoken like somebody who's never benchmarked (for one example) Microsoft's implementation of std::deque (I've seen 30+% performance loss compared to std::vector with it).
@aclarke in that case you steal half of the space from the other side and if that isn't enough you reallocate
user1646075
that sounds like a circular queue, with a frankenstein kind of gait.
@aclarke a circular queue isn't contiguous
user1646075
and if that space gets consumed?
01:24
what space?
user1646075
at the front that you want to steal
> and if that isn't enough you reallocate
user1646075
bugger - all that time to move items around!
what if I told you that moving items around is cheap
because it's a loop? and a CPU has a prefetcher?
I can move 10000 items in the time that you malloc() once
for your linked list node
this effect is so extreme that often a linear search is faster than a binary search if the # elements doesn't get prohibitively large
the constants lie to you :)
user1646075
well, see, I don't know your conditions. M=max number of items? Unbounded on not? S=size of items? and so on
01:30
@TonyTheLion What the bloody fuck, it only comes out on Dec 12th in canada according to amazon
user1646075
what's a linear search got to do with a deque? they don't support it. A deque is a black box, a tube-like object with a hole at either end
@aclarke I was giving an example where doing things in a linear fashion is faster than jumping around in memory
user1646075
.... depending on where you spend most of your time
@aclarke despite that the jumping around in memory algorithm is asymptotically superior
user1646075
I think you sound like you know enough about what you want to start coding. I've seen a shit-load of variations on the subject over the years, all dependent on expected usage.
01:32
start coding?
I'm already at 600+ lines
Dang.
user1646075
good!
1985 will be 30 years ago soon.
550+*
user1646075
@Rapptz and 1984 isn't that far away either...
01:33
@Rapptz my birthday is now exactly 20 years ago :(
user1646075
@Rapptz We seriously should all be living in space stations now ;-(
yeah man
I was promised flying cars when I was a kid
shakes fist
Starting next year, were supposed to start dressing like morons :(
No hoverboard either.
2015 is already failing me and it didn't even arrive yet.
thats the biggest bummer :(
that requires a special surface though
doesnt it?
Ell
Ell
We have flying cars don't we?
copper or aluminium
@Ell o.o we do?
01:38
@Ell general public
Pledge $10,000 or more
11 backers [All gone!]
Hmm, I need some reading material for tomorrow, train rides are boring. Does anyone have recommendations for stuff on memory allocations? how new/malloc works (what they need to deal with), why we need allocators/what they do, ... ?
> The invasion was halted after a few hours and Argentine forces retreated from the conflict zone without a fight. Whether the Argentine infantry actually crossed the border into Chile cannot be established. Argentine sources insist that they crossed the border.
play Smash
Sometimes countries can act like children.
I was promised Interstellar travel and HAL 9000 when I was 1. The sadness within me...
01:42
@Nooble Well you got Interstellar
;)
@Borgleader I do?
user1646075
@Borgleader hah that's precious. Actually it's hotrrifyingly close.
@Borgleader Just what I wanted!
user1646075
@Borgleader There's a Garbage Collections book that's famous. Want the name? I've only ever found it in torrents, but it may since have hit an online bookstore if we're lucky
01:45
This seems cool.
8 mins ago, by Rapptz
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/142464853/hendo-hoverboards-worlds-first-re‌​al-hoverboard
:c
Sorry
@aclarke sure, ill check and see if its on android bookstore
Hello, all.
Hello
01:46
I'm trying to write a cross-platform application, to be executed in user-mode, that relies on some inline assembly and i need some help in finding the information i need.
What i need to know is:
1. Can i assume the call stack is contiguous?
2. How are frames pushed on/popped off the stack?
3. What all data is included in each frame?
4. Is there any settings/configuration/etc. that the user can change that will mess with 1, 2, and/or 3?
All i've been able to gather is that "machine dependent" is some superposition of the compiler, the processor, and the OS. I guess i should look in the data sheets, but there's a lot of information there.
How do you more experienced guys/gals go about this? Are there "trigger words" you could recommend i could use for googling?
Ell
Ell
I have no idea
Sounds good for Stack Overflow
@Jefffrey I was thinking that, but wanted to ask here first before getting crucified. lol
Ell
Ell
Youll want to look up "calling conventions"
Really, just post 1 and 2 together in a question; then 2 and 3.
01:48
@NoobSaibot you generally have a bigger chance getting crucified here
user1646075
@Borgleader still trying to find my copy....
Ell
Ell
Also I'm p sure the answer is no for number 4
@NoobSaibot You'll probably get crucified here worse than on the main site. :)
@NoobSaibot I can answer #1, no, the call stack is not contiguous and is interleaved with data on the stack
@NoobSaibot What the...? Well, I have an -le!
Take that.
01:50
@Borgleader gcsurvey.pdf is interesting in general (available on the net)
@NoobSaibot the answer to #2 is "just like data", except that it also updates the base pointer
(assuming x86)
@Jefffrey You mean combine 1 & 2?
@NoobSaibot Is there any way to either avoid the inline assembly completely, or else wrap it inside a C++ function, so it doesn't have to deal directly with parameter passing?
@Borgleader Yeah, this
user1646075
@Borgleader Yay!!! "Garbage Collection: Algorithms for Automatic Dynamic Memory Management" by Richard Jones and Rafael Lins
@orlp It's my understanding that variations in call stack frames occur with parameters and return values, from platform to platform.
@aclarke thanks ill look that up
user1646075
my copy is a dodgy scan-in-PDF format, I'd love to get it as a real format.
@NoobSaibot that's the data itself
01:52
@JerryCoffin I tried...oh, how i tried. Coroutines...
@NoobSaibot not how that data is put there
@NoobSaibot Maybe, 1|2&3|4 now that I think about it
@NoobSaibot but look up calling conventions
@Mysticial lol
So we do in fact have interstellar travel! Take a look at Voyager 1
@orlp I came across that, and have some questions there too...but one step at a time. ;-)
01:54
@NoobSaibot > It's my understanding that variations in call stack frames occur with parameters and return values, from platform to platform.
that's literally calling conventions
no step in between
@NoobSaibot Depending on what platforms you want to support: 1) no; call-stack may not be contiguous. 2) Varies widely. May not involve the stack at all. 3) Varies widely. Parameters and return address are typically, may be a little more than that though. 4) Yes. For example, MS compiler supports a few different calling conventions (__stdcall and __cdecl can be specified, __thiscall is also used, but can't be specified explicitly).
user1646075
@Nooble Cousin of yours?
@NoobSaibot You can't use setjmp/longjmp?
user1646075
@Nooble I wonder if Space Family Robinson has finally reached Alpha Centauri
01:56
@orlp I thought so too, until i came across cdecl which obfuscated the role the language plays in the convention.
user1646075
@Jefffrey Bastard. Do you know how close to lunchtime it is for me?
@aclarke Danger Danger!
@NoobSaibot what do you mean?
@JerryCoffin setjmp.h doesn't preserve the stack. Only the registers.
@aclarke I see what you did there...
@AlexM. Or like this.
user1646075
01:57
@Borgleader I was SO OBSESSED with that show as a kid ;-)
@aclarke :P
@Mysticial by the way I had an evil thought for one-time initialization on a function call with 0 long-term overhead
user1646075
I flattened a large carboard box and painted the control panels onto it. Then a friend and I lay down under their climbing frame and did so many planet take-offs we lost count.
@orlp Can you use the reply arrows? It hard to see what exactly you're replying to half the time.
@NoobSaibot That's contrary to any documentation I've seen (or any experience I've had). I'm pretty sure such an implementation wouldn't conform with the standard.
01:59
@orlp Ok, so calling conventions that can be used depend on the processor/compiler/OS, right? x86 seems to support the calling convention called "C decllaration".
@Mysticial that was not a reply :)
@Mysticial but ok
So what does that have to do with C (dialects)?

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